Atium Retcon: Can Renarin burn Raysium?

[Big Beech]

Mistborn 3, Stormlight 4, and Sunlit Man spoilers ahead, light references to Warbreaker as well:

So I recently learned about the Atium retcon (the Atium in Era one is actually an alloy of Gold, Silver and Pure Atium, and that any Seer misting we saw was actually an Oracle misting capable of burning Electrum) and I’m fine with it, but hear me out: Brandon made this retcon so that any scadrian can burn Atium now just like they can burn Lerasium, that raises the question: under what circumstances can someone burn a god metal?
 

Brandon’s Atium retcon has kinda indicated to me that since Scadrians can burn both of their native god metals, anyone could burn a god metal if they are relevantly Connected to the respective shard. If this is the case, what constitutes a relevant Connection? Is having a soul above 3 BEUs invested enough? Does that then mean that a Nalthian with one breath could burn Edglium? Is that not possible, but with more Breath you could? If so, could any Radiant burn Tanavastium, Coravellium, and/or in Renarin/Rlain’s case Raysium. 

Is being a human that is directly created by that shard the threshold? In my opinion this option causes the least problems with the Atium retcon.
 

The third option is that you can burn the god metals of your homeworld’s Shard(s) which is a different threshold of connection. This third option would mean that in Zellion’s case he could only burn Coravellium, Tanavastium, and the god metal of whichever shard made Canticle, as opposed to the second option that would allow him to burn any god metal just as he can inhale any gaseous investiture. This brings up a question then: because a mistborn just has homeworld connections to Scadrial they can only burn Atium and Lerasium. A Full Feruchmist or even just a Connection Ferring could (maybe this requires compounding) burn ANY god metal with enough Connection tapping. If this is the case, how very ironic that the retcon that taketh away the Mistborns ability to burn everything giveth that same ability to the Feruchemists (and Hemalurgists who steal connection). 
 

LMK your thoughts!!

[Treamayne]

4 hours ago, Big Beech said:

Brandon made this retcon so that any scadrian can burn Atium

Not entirely correct - any Allomancer should be able to burn Pure Atium. To burn a GodMetal, a person must have ties to Allomancy (which allows burning metals to connect to Investiture for an Effect) and a Tie to the connected investiture (Vin or Kelsier wouldn't be able to burn a Rosharan GodMetal, for example, without "something more.")

Granted, there should be at least one more God Metal that can be burned by "anybody" (like Preservation's metal - Lerasium) - likely Endowment (Edglium) due to the nature of her Investiture. . . 

WoBs:

Spoiler

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/u/AAKS_

My understanding is that Brandon thinks it is a plothole that lerasium can be burned by Scadrian (regardless of if they are Mistings/Mistborn) but atium can't.

His solution is to retcon the Pits to naturally produce an atium/electrum alloy, presumably by the design of Preservation. Therefore we don't know what pure atium looks like or does when used in any magic.

Peter Ahlstrom

We do know what it does. It’s on the Allomancy poster, and the effect appeared one time at the end of Hero of Ages.

LewsTherinTelescope

Interesting. Do you know if he had already conceived the retcon by the time the poster was written, or if that line about pure atium just turned out to fit really well retroactively?

Peter Ahlstrom

The retcon is way older than a lot of people assume.

LewsTherinTelescope

Does this mean he had it in mind by the time Hero of Ages released (since the first public version of the poster dates to 2008), or just that it's old but not sure exactly how old?

Peter Ahlstrom

Remember that what's in the books is filtered through the understanding of the characters. So even if Brandon planned it from the beginning, if the characters didn't know about it, it's not going to come out in the book.

And see this thread reply from 2009.

Footnote: The link is to a post on the Timewaster's Guide forums, where Peter responds to someone asking about whether atium is an alloy by saying he now knows enough to confirm or deny the theory, but is not allowed to.
General Reddit 2022 (Dec. 4, 2022)

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SageOfTheWise

In Allomancy, normal metals are simply a tool that channels Allomancer's already existing Connection to the power of Preservation, which is why non-Allomancers don't get powers from digesting metal. But if I understand it correctly, god metals are an exception, since they are a form of a Shard's power, burning them directly uses the power stored within.

If I have this right, how come a normal person can burn lerasium, but not atium? Or could they, and no ones thought to try? But if that was true why are there atium Mistings?

Brandon Sanderson

Suffice it to say that what people both in the books and out think about the god metals has some holes in it.

/r/books AMA 2015 (Aug. 13, 2015)

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Questioner

What would happen if a person from Scadrial were to try to burn a manifested metal from Roshar?

Brandon Sanderson

So you're meaning they're in Shadesmar, they manifest it, and they try to burn it, right?

Questioner

Say a Spren of a Radiant manifests as a bead of metal instead of a Shardblade?

Brandon Sanderson

You're not going to be able to burn that if it's something that's coming from a spren, because that's not going to be treated as a metal in your body. Like, those are God Metals, and that one is actually alive and awake and it's just not gonna work. There are ways, though, that you could make that work. So it's totally possible, but you're gonna need something that's not an alive spren that's manifest like that. You're gonna need some way to get access to some tanavastium or something like that that's not, like, some living being.

Dragonsteel 2023 (Nov. 21, 2023)

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mail-mi

We know that any person can burn lerasium. Are there other God Metals that any person can burn?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Dragonsteel Mini-Con 2021 (Nov. 22, 2021)

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Questioner

Can an Allomancer burn any god metal? Or is it specifically Preservation and Ruin?

Brandon Sanderson

That is actually a RAFO. There's some funkyness going on there.

Oathbringer London signing (Nov. 28, 2017)

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word_thief

What would happen if a Mistborn ingested the metal of a Shardblade/Plate?

Brandon Sanderson

A Shardblade is Invested. A Mistborn isn't likely to have a tie to that type of Investiture. So probably nothing would happen…

General Twitter 2013 (Oct. 24, 2013)

 

Conflicting WoB:

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Dave Smith

Can a Mistborn burn any god metal such as tanavastium?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes they could.

Footnote: Previously Brandon indicated they would need a tie to that type of Investiture.
YouTube Spoiler Stream 2 (June 3, 2021)

 

Hope that helps

Edited July 14, 2024 by Treamayne
SPAG

[alder24]

6 hours ago, Big Beech said:

So I recently learned about the Atium retcon (the Atium in Era one is actually an alloy of Gold, Silver and Pure Atium, and that any Seer misting we saw was actually an Oracle misting capable of burning Electrum) and I’m fine with it, but hear me out: Brandon made this retcon so that any scadrian can burn Atium now just like they can burn Lerasium, that raises the question: under what circumstances can someone burn a god metal?

When Brandon talks about it, he says that "anybody" should be able to burn god metals, but that doesn't clear a lot. We don't know who that "anybody" is. Lerasium making people into a Mistborn is a side effect and an Allomancer burning Lerasium would get something else. This is because when you first burn Lerasium it's not you that's burning it, it's your body that's doing it. If you're an Allomancer and you know what to do, you can get the true power from Lerasium. Lerasium seems to be unique and be burnable by truly anybody in Cosmere (Hoid used it), but only as a side-effect. We don't know if other god metals have similar things going on, though Lerasium isn't the only metal burnable by anyone in Cosmere.

I believe that this "anybody" doesn't mean anybody on Scadrial, or in Cosmere, or with proper Connection, it means any Allomancer. And only Allomacers can burn god metals. I believe this because one of the changes Brandon will make in Mistborn movies is that any Allomancer can burn Atium, as he specifically said this is something he wished he'd done from the beginning. Thus in my opinion only Allomancers can burn pure god metals, alloys of god metals can be burned by either a full Mistborn or a Misting of the alloy part (for Atium-electrum alloy it means electrum Misting). It makes a lot of sense as god metals are still metals, you need to be an Allomancer to burn them, because this is what Allomancy is all about and it aligns with the fact that only Seers and Mistborn can burn Atium-electrum alloy. But that's what I think, we don't know for sure what Brandon means by "anybody."

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

Chapter Thirty-Eight

Preservation's Power

All right, so maybe I lied about there only being three magic systems in this book. It comes down to how you term the powers of Preservation and Ruin, who kind of blanket the entire system. There are a lot of things going on here, and—well, the truth is I don't want to mention all of them, for fear of spoiling future books. However, I'll give you a few rules to apply.

First, to these forces, energy and mass are the same thing. So, their power can take physical shape—as Preservation's did in the bead of metal Elend ate. Second, there is a bit of Preservation inside of all the people—and it's this that allows the people to perform Allomancy. It needs to be awakened and stirred to be of use, but when it is, a proper metal can draw forth more of Preservation's power. It's like the metal attunes the bit within the person, allowing it to act as a catalyst to grab more power.

Allomancy is not fueled by metal; it is fueled by Preservation. The metal is the means by which a person can access that fuel, however. If there were another way to access it, then the metal wouldn't be needed.

Preservation's touch on people differs. Some have more, some have less. This doesn't make them better or worse people—indeed, some most touched by Preservation have been among the worst people in the world. As Ruin later points out, there is a difference between being evil and being destructive.

Regardless, if a person can get more Preservation into them, they become better Allomancers. Hence Elend becoming a Mistborn. Like all people, he had the potential within him—it was just too small of a potential to be awakened through normal means. That little jolt of Preservation's body, however, expanded and awakened his Allomancy.

As a tidbit, that was a side effect of what that bead of metal did. It wasn't the main purpose of the bead, and if another Allomancer were to burn it, it would do something else.

The Hero of Ages Annotations (Nov. 12, 2009)

 

Spoiler

17th Shard

If a Mistborn burns lerasium, as in, not just ingests it, what effect would it grant Allomantically?

Brandon Sanderson

That is a RAFO. It would do something, but the thing you've gotta remember is that, when ingesting lerasium for the first time and gaining the powers, your body is actually burning it. Think of lerasium as a metal anyone can burn. Does that make sense? By burning it you gain access to those powers. It rewrites your spiritual DNA, and there are ways to do really cool things with lerasium that I don't see how anyone would know. Were most Mistborn to just burn it, it would rewrite their genetic code to increase their power as an Allomancer.

17th Shard Interview (Oct. 3, 2010)

 

Spoiler

mail-mi

We know that any person can burn lerasium. Are there other God Metals that any person can burn?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Dragonsteel Mini-Con 2021 (Nov. 22, 2021)

 

Spoiler

[...]

meh84f

The bit about atium is a bit confusing. The Ventures are going to have the Atium stash? Not the stash that we don’t find until the end I’m assuming? So it’ll be a stash but much smaller than expected?

Brandon Sanderson

So, I'm not sure I can explain it all in this, but one big change I wished I'd made from the start of Mistborn is making atium usable by all Allomancers. As I've gotten further in the cosmere, using a god metal as just for Mistborn has felt off.

So the lore change for the films will mean any Allomancer can use atium. This, in turn, lets House Venture have access to the LR's atium as a "Control the city" last resort. They keep a task force of allomancers for this purpose--which Ham can join, in anticipation of being able to steal it once Shan accesses it. (They don't know that House Venture is only given about a hundred beads of atium, not access to the full mythical cache, which will be reserved for the third movie.)

Makes the worldbuilding and storytelling more elegant, I've found, in the film. And it fits better with more "modern" cosmere fundamentals as have developed over the last decade. I think I'd make this change even if we moved to a television show and long form.

[...]

General Reddit 2020 (June 22, 2020)

 

Spoiler

Dave Smith

Can a Mistborn burn any god metal such as tanavastium?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes they could.

Footnote: Previously Brandon indicated they would need a tie to that type of Investiture.
YouTube Spoiler Stream 2 (June 3, 2021)

TLM spoiler WoB:

Spoiler

LewsTherinTelescope

At the end of The Lost Metal, we learn that Marsh will be using atium from the ettmetal experiments to stay alive going forward. However, Peter recently revealed (and you confirmed) that the atium in Era 1 which stored youth was actually a mix of atium and electrum. How will this continue to work to keep him young?

Brandon Sanderson

They're going to have a different term for pure atium and for what has been known as atium--what they're making. It is not hard to get the right mix down for what he needs to stay alive. It is hard to make enough of it to keep him alive. Well, not hard, but definitely not scalable to more than one person, how about that. They are able to do it, you've just got to make an alloy.

I will apologize for this. This is a post-Era-1 retcon where I realized I need all the God Metals to do different things, and this is just one of the aspects that comes down. For those who don't know what's going on: I get done with Era 1, I start really working on the nature of metals in the cosmere. I'm like, "Ehhh... Atium really should be burnable by anybody. It's a God Metal. The way God Metals work is not in line with how I've made atium. So what they call atium has to have trace elements of something else, and then there's a pure form of atium out there that would be the true pure God Metal." That is one of those unfortunate retcons when you're doing all this continuity. And it works just fine in the books, because the way that atium is being made is a pretty complicated little process there in the Pits of Hathsin.

The question is the right question. Sazed is going to get out of this pure atium, which he is going to need to tweak before he gives it to Marsh. Whether Marsh knows he is getting a tweaked version or not is subject to your own interpretation.

For arcanist purposes, if you want to call the other one pure atium and the regular one just atium, I'd recommend something like that for your wikis and things like that.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 5 (Dec. 2, 2022)

 

6 hours ago, Big Beech said:

Brandon’s Atium retcon has kinda indicated to me that since Scadrians can burn both of their native god metals, anyone could burn a god metal if they are relevantly Connected to the respective shard.

It's one possibility and there is a WoB supporting that:

Spoiler

word_thief

What would happen if a Mistborn ingested the metal of a Shardblade/Plate?

Brandon Sanderson

A Shardblade is Invested. A Mistborn isn't likely to have a tie to that type of Investiture. So probably nothing would happen…

General Twitter 2013 (Oct. 24, 2013)

However recently we've learned that the reason Mistborn can't burn Shardblades and Shardplates is because they are spren, they are alive. You can't burn something that's alive because it's not treated as a metal anymore. And a WoB I've posted above said a Mistborn can burn other pure god metals as well, so it's not about Connection.

Spoiler

Questioner

What would happen if a person from Scadrial were to try to burn a manifested metal from Roshar?

Brandon Sanderson

So you're meaning they're in Shadesmar, they manifest it, and they try to burn it, right?

Questioner

Say a Spren of a Radiant manifests as a bead of metal instead of a Shardblade?

Brandon Sanderson

You're not going to be able to burn that if it's something that's coming from a spren, because that's not going to be treated as a metal in your body. Like, those are God Metals, and that one is actually alive and awake and it's just not gonna work. There are ways, though, that you could make that work. So it's totally possible, but you're gonna need something that's not an alive spren that's manifest like that. You're gonna need some way to get access to some tanavastium or something like that that's not, like, some living being.

Dragonsteel 2023 (Nov. 21, 2023)

[+robardin he/him]

Regarding "burning" lerasium, I've always thought that last comment from Brandon was telling: there are ways to do really cool things with lerasium that I don't see how anyone would know. Were most Mistborn to just burn it, it would rewrite their genetic code to increase their power as an Allomancer.

In other words, the "default action" of burning lerasium is to form such a deep(er) Connection to Preservation that you become Mistborn (from nothing), or an Even Stronger Mistborn if you're one already (similar to how Rashek and his "directly self-modified sDNA while Ascended as the Temporary Avatar of Preservation" Mistborn powers were stronger than even Elend's "the direct ingestor of a lerasium bead").

But, if you "know what you're doing", I think you can rewrite your sDNA... Period.

In computer programming terms, it's like being given root level access to your own sDNA with a tool that has a simple command, "lerasium", and if you run it, you get the default template that embeds an inheritable (if diluted over time) Connection to Preservation, with the power of Allomancy as a side effect.

But this tool also has optional (and undocumented!) "switches" where you could give customized template instructions to modify your sDNA - and physical form, to match - to turn yourself into pretty much anything.

Remember, the power of Preservation was used by Rashek to turn all Feruchemists into mistwraiths (with a backdoor for a hemalurgic upgrade to becoming kandra), but could not be used to destroy (as to strike down his uncle Kwaan when he turned Rashek down - who could have "made him a mistwraith anyway" but didn't).

So ingesting lerasium is like being given a chance to do that, I think, but only to yourself. And only if you exerted the extra Intent to do so, in the right way.

But, as Brandon emphasized, who's going to have that level of knowledge, not just of Realmatic Theory, but on how to use lerasium?

Who would be able to understand how to "run lerasium" without documentation? It would need source code level understanding of it, right?

So it'd have to be someone who'd already Ascended before as Preservation, de-Ascended, and now is having a second go-round with it.

Like if Rashek had managed to re-enter the Well, or chose to ingest a bead of lerasium himself.

Or... Er... If some other guy who had held Preservation, gave it up, and yet stuck around and is looking for... Oh no.

Edited July 25, 2024 by robardin