When do Skybreakers get a Shardblade?

[Steel Speedster ♂]

Do Skybreakers earn a Shardblade at the 3rd Ideal or the 5th? All other Radiant orders seem to get a blade at the 3rd, but I'm not sure if that holds true for Skybreakers.

As far as I recall, Nale is the only Skybreaker to have ever showcased a Shardblade, and he first showed it when he told Szeth that he was a Skybreaker of the 5th Ideal. I interpreted that to mean that a Shardblade isn't unlocked until the 5th Ideal. Now that I think about it, the Shardblade could have just been to show that he was a Skybreaker at all, and not only a Herald. Most people that I've seen talk about it seem to have assume that it is indeed unlocked at the 3rd.

However, if Skybreakers do get a blade at the 3rd Ideal, why haven't we seen anyone other than Nale have one? Specifically, why haven't we had any indication that Szeth has one? He swore the 3rd Ideal at the end of OB and is already moving on to the 4th Ideal. One could argue that it's because of Nightblood, but given how dangerous Nightblood is to use, I would think that Szeth would still want to use a Shardblade sometimes if he had one. And even if he didn't, you'd think it would have been at least mentioned.

Furthermore, I think that the nature of highspren themselves provides a reasonable answer to why this would be the case for Skybreakers. Highspren don't interact closely with their knight. Szeth has barely ever even seen his, and we don't even know its name. It makes sense to me that given this behavior, a highspren might not become a Shardblade until the 5th Ideal.

Additionally, Skybreakers already unlock something else at the 3rd Ideal: the Surge of Division. It's not impossible that one Ideal may give a Radiant multiple new abilities, but since it was mentioned that Szeth unlocked that Surge, why wouldn't it have also been mentioned that he unlocked a Shardblade at the same time.

Thoughts?

[Quantus he/him]

As far as we know all Orders that get Blades and/or Plate (ie not Bondsmiths) get them at 3rd and 4th respectively.  Some orders gate specific surges behind different levels, and Skybreakers offer less than most at the 1st oath with their almost-mandatory Squire stage.  It might be relevant that the Orders we know Gate their Surges are also the least limiting of the Ideals (Skybreakers, Elsecallers, and Lightweavers are noted to be the most adaptable/compatible Ideals).  

 

In the case of Szeth, he's said that his Highspren rarely makes itself known.  And he has Nightblood so a) he's had no need for a traditional Shardblade thus far, and b) his Spren is likely keeping it's distance from the Investiture sucking monster from another world that could Eat him if he's not careful.  As far as the other Skybreaker masters, they we've never seen them even try to fight, only when they were testing their potentials, so I assume we'll get blade confirmation when they actively take the field on stage.    

[Steel Speedster ♂]

2 minutes ago, Quantus said:

As far as we know all Orders that get Blades and/or Plate (ie not Bondsmiths) get them at 3rd and 4th respectively.  Some orders gate specific surges behind different levels, and Skybreakers offer less than most at the 1st oath with their almost-mandatory Squire stage.  It might be relevant that the Orders we know Gate their Surges are also the least limiting of the Ideals (Skybreakers, Elsecallers, and Lightweavers are noted to be the most adaptable/compatible Ideals).  

 

In the case of Szeth, he's said that his Highspren rarely makes itself known.  And he has Nightblood so a) he's had no need for a traditional Shardblade thus far, and b) his Spren is likely keeping it's distance from the Investiture sucking monster from another world that could Eat him if he's not careful.  As far as the other Skybreaker masters, they we've never seen them even try to fight, only when they were testing their potentials, so I assume we'll get blade confirmation when they actively take the field on stage.    

All valid points, but I do think it would be a bit strange if Szeth has had a Shardblade since the end of OB and never even mention it.

The Surge of Division is also gated for Dustbringers (3rd Ideal I think, just like Skybreakers.)

Do Lightweavers and Elsecallers gate their Surges? I can't seem to recall that ever being mentioned. Shallan seemed to use both Surges fairly early on, although her level is a bit hard to determine, so she might not be a good example.

It may also be worth noting that most Orders seem to have one Surge that they tend to learn first and have an easier time doing early on. For example, Kaladin didn't use Gravitation at all until well after swearing the 2nd Ideal, but as far as we know, that Surge isn't actually limited to 2nd Ideal and up. As other examples, Lift learns Abrasion long before Progression and Venli learns Transportation before Cohesion.

[Quantus he/him]

20 minutes ago, Speeding Steelrunner said:

All valid points, but I do think it would be a bit strange if Szeth has had a Shardblade since the end of OB and never even mention it.

Im not sire why? He's mostly been in prison since then, or under cover, or loosing his cool and ill-advisedly attacking powerful beings with Nightblood.  He's also mentioned specifically that his Highspren seems shy and rarely reveals itslef, so without any reason or opportunity to set Nightblood aside Im not sure why he'd force his Spren to manifest. 

20 minutes ago, Speeding Steelrunner said:

The Surge of Division is also gated for Dustbringers (3rd Ideal I think, just like Skybreakers.)

Do Lightweavers and Elsecallers gate their Surges? I can't seem to recall that ever being mentioned. Shallan seemed to use both Surges fairly early on, although her level is a bit hard to determine, so she might not be a good example.

It may also be worth noting that most Orders seem to have one Surge that they tend to learn first and have an easier time doing early on. For example, Kaladin didn't use Gravitation at all until well after swearing the 2nd Ideal, but as far as we know, that Surge isn't actually limited to 2nd Ideal and up. As other examples, Lift learns Abrasion long before Progression and Venli learns Transportation before Cohesion.

Per Pattern Shallan needed to swear more Truths before she could use Soulcasting at will.  Ivory said the same thing to Jasnah about full Elsecalling (in the bonus chapter from her POV when she gets trapped in Shadesmar.  

Gravitation was one of the first Surges Kaladin used, specifically using the Reverse Lashing on the Bridge to draw Arrow away from himself.  He was technically doing that before he actually even learned the actual words of the 1st oath (though I think he made the needed internalised Choice when he decided not to Jump that time).

[Steel Speedster ♂]

19 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Im not sire why? He's mostly been in prison since then, or under cover, or loosing his cool and ill-advisedly attacking powerful beings with Nightblood.  He's also mentioned specifically that his Highspren seems shy and rarely reveals itslef, so without any reason or opportunity to set Nightblood aside Im not sure why he'd force his Spren to manifest.

I hadn’t thought about the highspren being scared of Nightblood, but I would imagine that if it refused to become a Shardblade for that reason that it would explain that to Szeth.

I got the impression that all highspren are kind of distant, and that it’s not unique to Szeth’s. They don’t even initiate a bond until the Skybreaker is ready to swear the 3rd Ideal. The Coppermind also mentions that highspren are able to hide themselves, even from their knight, which most spren can’t do.

25 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Gravitation was one of the first Surges Kaladin used, specifically using the Reverse Lashing on the Bridge to draw Arrow away from himself.

True, although I seem to remember that the Reverse Lashing is a mix between the two Surges (hence why in RoW, Kaladin found it harder to do than a Full Lashing, but easier than a Basic Lashing, which he couldn’t do at all.)

In any case, I’m sure WaT will have answers for us, considering that it is the Skybreaker book.

[alder24]

7 hours ago, Speeding Steelrunner said:

Do Skybreakers earn a Shardblade at the 3rd Ideal or the 5th? All other Radiant orders seem to get a blade at the 3rd, but I'm not sure if that holds true for Skybreakers.

As far as I recall, Nale is the only Skybreaker to have ever showcased a Shardblade, and he first showed it when he told Szeth that he was a Skybreaker of the 5th Ideal. I interpreted that to mean that a Shardblade isn't unlocked until the 5th Ideal. Now that I think about it, the Shardblade could have just been to show that he was a Skybreaker at all, and not only a Herald. Most people that I've seen talk about it seem to have assume that it is indeed unlocked at the 3rd.

However, if Skybreakers do get a blade at the 3rd Ideal, why haven't we seen anyone other than Nale have one? Specifically, why haven't we had any indication that Szeth has one? He swore the 3rd Ideal at the end of OB and is already moving on to the 4th Ideal. One could argue that it's because of Nightblood, but given how dangerous Nightblood is to use, I would think that Szeth would still want to use a Shardblade sometimes if he had one. And even if he didn't, you'd think it would have been at least mentioned.

Furthermore, I think that the nature of highspren themselves provides a reasonable answer to why this would be the case for Skybreakers. Highspren don't interact closely with their knight. Szeth has barely ever even seen his, and we don't even know its name. It makes sense to me that given this behavior, a highspren might not become a Shardblade until the 5th Ideal.

Additionally, Skybreakers already unlock something else at the 3rd Ideal: the Surge of Division. It's not impossible that one Ideal may give a Radiant multiple new abilities, but since it was mentioned that Szeth unlocked that Surge, why wouldn't it have also been mentioned that he unlocked a Shardblade at the same time.

Thoughts?

There is something different to Skybreakers and their Shardblade - what is this, we don't know. WoB confirms it. However this might simply mean that because they are more organized, work like a police force, thus they can't summon their Shardblade unwarranted, just like police officers can't use their firearms without a good reason. Maybe it means that their spren decide whether they can be summoned as a blade or not. Or this might suggest what you're saying, that Skybreakers get their blades later. We don't know, but this is something affecting the entire order, not just Szeth.

Spoiler

Questioner

Why does Szeth's spren not help him as a [Shardblade] even though he has said the Third Ideal?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, RAFO.

Let's just say that the highspren are perhaps a little bit different from other spren.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 2 (June 3, 2021)

However I find it unlikely that Skybreakers' Shardblades are being given at later Ideal, because Szeth's spren specifically said that he will earn his Shardplate after swearing the 4th Ideal. It would be very weird for them to gain their blade later than their plates. I guess Skybreakers are at the whim of their spren. RoW I-7:

Quote

“We need to discuss your crusade. You are a year into your current oath, and I am pleased and impressed with your dedication. You are among the most vigilant and worthy of men. I would have you earn your Plate. You still wish to cleanse your homeland?”

[Steel Speedster ♂]

2 minutes ago, alder24 said:

There is something different to Skybreakers and their Shardblade - what is this, we don't know. WoB confirms it. However this might simply mean that because they are more organized, work like a police force, thus they can't summon their Shardblade unwarranted, just like police officers can't use their firearms without a good reason. Maybe it means that their spren decide whether they can be summoned as a blade or not. Or this might suggest what you're saying, that Skybreakers get their blades later. We don't know, but this is something affecting the entire order, not just Szeth.

  Reveal hidden contents

Questioner

Why does Szeth's spren not help him as a [Shardblade] even though he has said the Third Ideal?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, RAFO.

Let's just say that the highspren are perhaps a little bit different from other spren.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 2 (June 3, 2021)

However I find it unlikely that Skybreakers' Shardblades are being given at later Ideal, because Szeth's spren specifically said that he will earn his Shardplate after swearing the 4th Ideal. It would be very weird for them to gain their blade later than their plates. I guess Skybreakers are at the whim of their spren. RoW I-7:

It would be unusual to get the plate before the blade, but I also think it would be pretty cool. Shardplate on its own is a dangerous weapon, and I think it would be interesting to see someone using it without a blade.