[SA5] Honor Blades, oaths and their correlation to the Knights Radiant

[Master Silver]

So Minor spoilers from the prologue for Stormlight Five. 

My theory is that we have not yet really seen why the Heralds are spoken of with such awe by the Fused/Singers and the legends of mankind. The reason for this is that the honor blades which are splinters of Honor behave sort of like Radiant Spren bonds. Yes they give the basic lashings of their respective order, but this is the least they are supposed to do. It is sort of like how dead blades and plate are still fantastic weapons. Why aren't the Honor blades more fantastic? Broken oaths. Re-swear those oaths and I bet they do so much more. The major thing or most obvious thing would be the honor blades acting as a source of stormlight for their bearers. A direct connection to Honor by which they can be filled with Stormlight. Another interesting effect would be how we see the Radiants leak less stormlight as they progress to higher ideals. I imagine this is true of the heralds too. If they re-swear their oaths I bet their stormlight efficiency sky rockets.

 

Edited May 10 by Master Silver

[Treamayne]

45 minutes ago, Master Silver said:

So Minor spoilers from the prologue for Stormlight Five.

Please Spoiler tag the thread title. Example:

[SA5] Honor Blades, oaths and their correlation to the Knights Radiant

[alder24]

7 hours ago, Master Silver said:

So Minor spoilers from the prologue for Stormlight Five. 

My theory is that we have not yet really seen why the Heralds are spoken of with such awe by the Fused/Singers and the legends of mankind. The reason for this is that the honor blades which are splinters of Honor behave sort of like Radiant Spren bonds. Yes they give the basic lashings of their respective order, but this is the least they are supposed to do. It is sort of like how dead blades and plate are still fantastic weapons. Why aren't the Honor blades more fantastic? Broken oaths. Re-swear those oaths and I bet they do so much more. The major thing or most obvious thing would be the honor blades acting as a source of stormlight for their bearers. A direct connection to Honor by which they can be filled with Stormlight. Another interesting effect would be how we see the Radiants leak less stormlight as they progress to higher ideals. I imagine this is true of the heralds too. If they re-swear their oaths I bet their stormlight efficiency sky rockets.

Yes, Honorblades can do more than we've seen till now. Honorblades aren't bound by Oaths like Radiants and their True Spren are. Honorblades aren't like a Nahel Bond, the Nahel bond is like Honorblades - it was Spren who started to copy Honorblades first. 

One thing Heralds were capable of is drawing power directly from Honor, not needing Stormlight for their Surgebinding - but after Honor's death this is likely no longer possible. However Honorblade are the first generation, the prototypes of Shardblades and because of that they are less efficient (and also less fantastic) - they require more Stormlight to power Surgebinding, they don't heal as well as Radiants can (for example they can't heal spiritual wounds), they can't change their forms and this doesn't change when they are in Herald's hands, thus no oath can change that too. They are tied to the Oathpact but not directly, they are more like a symbol of the Oath Heralds made. Honorblades were even swapped by Heralds from time to time so they aren't even that strongly tied to each Herald specifically. 

I doubt Heralds can just reswear their Oath and be good - that won't work like it does with Radiants, as they didn't swear Oaths like Radiants do. They were a part of the Oathpact, they made one Oath, forged by Ishar and Honor. The Oathpact is a cage made out of Herald's souls, now it's nearly broken. Oaths aren't needed, even the Stormfather warns Dalinar that with Jezrien's blade he can be more than a Windrunner, nearly like a Herald. We don't know what it even means to be like a Herald, so yes, Honorblades are likely capable of more, but they have some serious limitations in comparison to Shardblades. 

OB ch 16:

Spoiler

This weapon, instead, was made directly from Honor’s soul, then given to the Heralds. It is also the mark of an oath, but a different type—and does not have the mind to scream on its own.
[...]
What will you do with it? the Stormfather asked as Dalinar entered the empty corridors. It is a weapon beyond parallel. The gift of a god. With it, you would be a Windrunner unoathed. And more. More that men do not understand, and cannot. Like a Herald, nearly.

WoBs:

Spoiler

Steeldancer

The Heralds, back before Honor died, were they directly powered by Honor?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. You’ll find out more about that, but the Shardblades [pretty sure he means Honorblades here] were pieces of Honor’s soul that he gave them and direct access to his essence.

Steeldancer

Like Vin and Elend?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, a little like that. That’s why Honorblades don’t work like Shardblades do, like Radiants do.

Steeldancer

The second part of the question is, what would happen if they were directly powered by Honor and they were holding Nightblood?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO

Boskone 54 (Feb. 17, 2017)

 

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

A full-blown Radiant can heal almost anything (cut from a Shardblade included) because of the way the magic works--their soul is literally bonded to Investiture, and it suffuses them in such a way that even the soul is very resilient to damage.

Honorblades are what you'd consider a "prototype" for what eventually happened with Shardblades. An Honorblade can be used by anyone, without need for oaths, which makes them very dangerous--but since the bond isn't as deep, they are far less efficient. They use more Stormlight, for example, and can't heal to the extent that a Radiant can.

So the difference is not in the device that did the damage, but in the method using to heal. Over the course of the first two book, the reader should be able to subtly pick out differences from what Szeth says is possible (in more than just healing) and what Kaladin experiences.

General Reddit 2017 (Sept. 8, 2017)

 

Spoiler

18th_Shard

Does a Herald using an Honorblade consume the same "dangerous" amounts of Stormlight?

Brandon Sanderson

Honorblades are less efficient; this doesn't change when a Herald uses them. (But they have other advantages.)

uchoo786

Are Honorblades closer in power to Nightblood than they are to Shardblades made from Spren?

Brandon Sanderson

Hard to say. They're all similar, but at the same time, very different. And in a way, Nightblood is what you might call a "Third Generation" blade.

uchoo786

Ah gotcha. And in this analogy, Honorblades would be 1st gen and Sprenblades would be 2nd gen?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

/r/books AMA 2015 (Aug. 4, 2015)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

When the Heralds abandoned the Oathpact, why did they believe they needed to leave their Honorblades behind as they disbanded? Did they know what would happen to their blades after they left them?

Brandon Sanderson

There's a couple things going on here. If you've read Way of Kings Prime, there is built, originally into the Honorblades, the ability to find other Honorblades by using them. This has not been canonized into the cosmere as it exists yet, but it is still a power that's in the back of my mind, it is most likely something you can access with the Honorblades: let you find the others. This is calling back to the old Fred Saberhagen Swords books, which were part of the inspiration for these. So one reason they would leave them behind, the lesser reason, is: they're supposed to go split up, and they don't want to see each other. They want to leave them behind, because it's like: "The others might be able to find me. We're going our separate ways. We are done."

But the greater reason, the canon reason, that you can cite is that idea of: "I am walking away from being a Herald. This was the gift I was given, and a representation of that gift I was given, that represents me standing up for humankind. And I am no longer willing to do that, so I have to give this thing up." And they all knew it. They didn't have to be told it, because they knew what they were doing meant they didn't deserve those anymore. Not in a magical sense, but in a sort of philosophical and moral sense.

Dragonsteel 2023 (Nov. 21, 2023)

 

Spoiler

mooglefrooglian

Did the Heralds ever temporarily swap Honorblades and learn to use more than their regular two Surges?

Brandon Sanderson

It has happened. (But it was not common.)

/r/books AMA 2015 (July 16, 2015)

 

Edited May 10 by alder24

[Master Silver]

So I wonder, is the honor blade or the wielder the one that is less efficient. So Nale when he uses his honor blade uses more stormlight than when using his spren blade. But would a non-radiant use even more stormlight than Nale while using Nale's honor blade? Remember how Kaladin got better with stormlight the more oaths he said. I wonder if it is the same for the Heralds. 

 

Did the Heralds breaking their bond weaken Honor so that Odium could kill him. Or did that start the long death? The Recreance could have served as the final nail in the coffin. 

Possible oaths for the Heralds.

Oaths: 1. Life before death, strength before weakness, journey before destination.

2. I will serve as a Herald of the Almighty, I will protect the people of Roshar.

Another way to say this will less room for interpretation. 2. I will serve as a Herald of Honor, I will protect mankind. 

3. I pledge my body and soul to cage Odium, and I will never break. 

 

I believe that there are fewer oaths as a herald. Breaking the last of the oaths causes a desolation releasing the fused. Breaking the other oaths causes the Herlads to turn into the ten fools, kind of like how Syl turned stupid when Kaladin was breaking his oaths. Just like the spren bond makes people unnaturally (or perhaps super naturally) good and stuff, swearing the oaths while bonded to an honor blade should amplify the ideas that that herald was associated with. So Jezrien became the embodiment of leadership for mankind. The heralds are human souls bonded to a splinter of Honor, forming a new type of spren so to speak. Breaking their oaths hurt Honor and stupefied them. It also made their blades lest fantastic. Lots of similarities between what Shallon did with Testament and what the Heralds did.

[Trusk'our]

44 minutes ago, Master Silver said:

So I wonder, is the honor blade or the wielder the one that is less efficient. So Nale when he uses his honor blade uses more stormlight than when using his spren blade. But would a non-radiant use even more stormlight than Nale while using Nale's honor blade? Remember how Kaladin got better with stormlight the more oaths he said. I wonder if it is the same for the Heralds. 

If you are a Radiant and you possess an Honorblade with the same Surges, they become overall more powerful.

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/222-words-of-radiance-houston-signing/#e5618

Questioner (paraphrased)

If a non-Windrunner picked up Jezrien's Honorblade would they gain Windrunner powers as well?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes.

Questioner (paraphrased)

If a Windrunner picked up that blade, would their abilities be enhanced?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

There would be some compounding but strength is not as much an issue with Surgebinding as is the strength of the spren bond and how much Stormlight you are using.

It should also be mentioned that Heralds had different levels of Investiture based on their attunement to their Oaths and Honor's Intent.

Mild Cosmere spoilers:

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/518-shardcast-interview/#e16173

Argent

If we are looking at very highly Invested beings, we have Yumi, and we are told that she is more Invested than Elantrians, more Invested than Returned. Let's compare Yumi, Elantrians, and Heralds. Who is most Invested, who is least Invested?

Brandon Sanderson

Of those, probably Heralds... The thing is, the Heralds varied. How in tune and aligned they are with their oaths, their promise... It wasn't Oaths, but they did promise certain things when they became Heralds. It was pre Knights Radiants, it's not as formalized as Oaths. How in line with the power of Honor, how in line with the kind of natural Investiture of Roshar--which is separate from Honor, Cultivation and Odium--are they, how can they draw upon that. I will call them the least of the three though.

Argent

So Heralds on the bottom, and Yumi on top, and Elantrians in the middle?

Brandon Sanderson

Yumi on top, but Yumi's very close to an Elantrian. They're within the same conversation. And most of the yoki-hijo were traditionally in the past less, they've gained Investiture over time.

Edit: in short, I don't think that Honorblades are what can give you a Herald's level of power, because as @alder24's quotes support, Heralds had two sources for their power; their Honorblades, and then a direct boost of Investiture from Honor himself. 

Edited May 11 by Trusk'our

[alder24]

6 hours ago, Master Silver said:

So Nale when he uses his honor blade uses more stormlight than when using his spren blade.

That's not how it works. He gets the same powers from both of his highly efficient 5th Ideal spren bond and his inefficient Honorblade, there would be some kind of compounding effect which simply would make him efficient and strong with Surges. It doesn't matter what blade he holds in his hands. 

Spoiler

Questioner (paraphrased)

If a non-Windrunner picked up Jezrien's Honorblade would they gain Windrunner powers as well?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes.

Questioner (paraphrased)

If a Windrunner picked up that blade, would their abilities be enhanced?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

There would be some compounding but strength is not as much an issue with Surgebinding as is the strength of the spren bond and how much Stormlight you are using.

Words of Radiance Houston signing (March 11, 2014)

 

WoR ch 87:

Quote

“No. But Kaladin, you have to understand. With this sword, someone can do what you can, but without the . . . checks a spren requires.” She touched it, then shivered visibly, her form blurring for a second. “This sword gave the assassin power to use Lashings, but it also fed upon his Stormlight. A person who uses this will need far, far more Light than you will. Dangerous levels of it.”

 

6 hours ago, Master Silver said:

But would a non-radiant use even more stormlight than Nale while using Nale's honor blade? Remember how Kaladin got better with stormlight the more oaths he said. I wonder if it is the same for the Heralds. 

No, there is no difference here. The third WoB said: "Honorblades are less efficient; this doesn't change when a Herald uses them." The inefficiency comes from Honorblades itself and Heralds also suffer from the same inefficiency. There is no Oaths or Ideal to swear to change that. 

6 hours ago, Master Silver said:

Did the Heralds breaking their bond weaken Honor so that Odium could kill him. Or did that start the long death? The Recreance could have served as the final nail in the coffin. 

No. The Recreance happened when Honor was already dying, all nails were in the coffin, the coffin was just being lowered into a grave.

Spoiler

Wetlander

Was Odium able to Splinter Honor because the Heralds abandoned the Oathpact?

Brandon Sanderson

Good question. Um, their abandonment of the Oathpact is related... but mostly tangentially. If I was pinned down on that, I would say no.

Wetlander

Is there any of the Oathpact still functioning because of Taln's continued participation?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, indeed.

Steelheart Seattle signing (Oct. 14, 2013)

 

6 hours ago, Master Silver said:

Possible oaths for the Heralds.

Oaths: 1. Life before death, strength before weakness, journey before destination.

2. I will serve as a Herald of the Almighty, I will protect the people of Roshar.

Another way to say this will less room for interpretation. 2. I will serve as a Herald of Honor, I will protect mankind. 

3. I pledge my body and soul to cage Odium, and I will never break. 

The Oathpact isn't like that. It's not like the Nahel Bond and Radiant Ideals, there is no progression or improvement. The Oathpact is a bond forged by Ishar the Bondsmith and Honor. We don't know the details, but it's not like what Radiants have. 

6 hours ago, Master Silver said:

Breaking the other oaths causes the Herlads to turn into the ten fools,

That's the nature of Cognitive Shadows. They've lived far longer than they should have, this strained their mind and soul and broke them, causing them to go mad. To add even more, they are more similar to spren thus they are susceptible to perception of people about them, which also causes further deterioration. You can see the signs of their madness even in the WoK prelude - Kalak already is showing signs of his future indecisiveness. Oathpact doesn't help them. 

Spoiler

Questioner

Why or how are the Heralds the only ones we've seen so far that are affected by magical maladies due to either their high Investiture or long lives?

Brandon Sanderson

I would argue the Fused are having the same situation, so they're not the only ones. The why and how... there's a whole host of things going on here. Like a lot of physical and mental illness, it's not one thing or the other. But it is a compound of other things.

One is going so long without certain protections that you kind of need to take. The human being's soul might be immortal, depending on your argument in the cosmere. (That's really up to you.) But they certainly aren't meant for thousands of years of existence, the same way that our bodies aren't. There's some of that.

There's some of the things they've been through. Like, legit trauma; this is not all simply a magical ailment. You've got people with PTSD, layers of PTSD on top of layers of PTSD, for thousands of years, bearing things that no human being without their level of Investiture would even be able to bear. You've got that manifestation, you've got their own sense of guilt.

And these things are all just kind of overlapping together with the fact they've been alive for so, so very long. And a lot of the people that you've seen otherwise have not been alive nearly... orders of magnitude more for the Heralds. The only people you've seen that are that old are: some of the dragons, Hoid, and Vessels of various Shards. And you're basically at that group. And this is a group who knows what they're doing. Either they were built like the dragons, this is part of their innate nature, that they are functionally immortal. Or you are getting the Shards. Or you're getting people that are 300 years old, which is a very different thing, cosmere-wise, than having lived for thousands and thousands of years, part of it being torture.

Dragonsteel 2023 (Nov. 21, 2023)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

The Heralds seem to be insane in the ways of their Divine Attributes, at least somewhat. Is this because they're Heralds? As Cognitive Shadows, they're subject to people's perception, like how spren are?

Brandon Sanderson

That's a very astute question, and yes, that is influencing them quite a bit. I'm doing something here with the Heralds. Like, I want the Heralds "madnesses," as we call them, to be magical diseases. And the contrast of something like Kaladin's depression, which I'm trying to treat very real-world. I'm trying to treat them as these things that couldn't exist in our world. They're fantastical mental diseases, like we have fantastic physical diseases in Elantris. So I did make them thematic, and I would say part of the reason for that is people's perception of them and their mental state reacting against that. And that should be a theme among all of the Heralds.

San Diego Comic-Con@Home 2020 (July 23, 2020)