Sazed and Harmony

[Arceoxys]

I am curious if there is a WoB about this, or if it's been theorized before etc and if so please point me to the relevant discussions/WoB

 

Anyway, the crux of my question is this: Is part of the reason for Sazed's inability to act (and potentially becoming of Discord if that is in fact what is happening) as Harmony is because everyone, seemingly including himself, thinks of Harmony as Ruin and Preservation, rather than a single entity?

 

To explain my thoughts: Intent is everything, or at least, a lot of everything. Intent matters. We are shown how Intent matters in most Cosmere books, and I was recently rereading Mistborn Era 2 and I found it interesting that whenever anyone thinks about Harmony as a concept, they conceptualize it as Ruin and Preservation together, rather than as a single thing, once two sources of Investiture, now one. 

 

I am curious if a simple (although, I think, difficult) restructuring of how Harmony is viewed could be a change to how it acts. I find it odd that Sazed constantly talks about how can't act because of his opposing natures of Preservation and Ruin, but he should only have *one* nature, that of Harmony. Now, of course, this could be as simple as him explaining a fault of Harmony itself in terms that make sense, it was two powers, now one, etc. But I find it odd. I feel like the combination of Ruin and Preservation shouldn't be as simple as addition, if that makes sense. 

 

Anyway, I'm curious what anyone thinks or if this has any merit or if it's been asked to Brandon.

[alder24]

37 minutes ago, Arceoxys said:

I am curious if there is a WoB about this, or if it's been theorized before etc and if so please point me to the relevant discussions/WoB

 

Anyway, the crux of my question is this: Is part of the reason for Sazed's inability to act (and potentially becoming of Discord if that is in fact what is happening) as Harmony is because everyone, seemingly including himself, thinks of Harmony as Ruin and Preservation, rather than a single entity?

We don't have any WoB on that, but that's a popular theory. It all boils down to the way Sazed Ascended, when he was able to merge those Shards but keep them separate. And I believe that separation is what causes him all those problems. HoA ch 82:

Quote

The powers were opposites. As he drew them in, they threatened to annihilate each other. And yet, because he was of one mind on how to use them, he could keep them separate. They could touch without destroying each other, if he willed it. For these two powers had been used to create all things. If they fought, they destroyed. If they were used together, they created.

I believe that if Sazed were to properly merge those Shards, he would not be Harmony anymore (as it requires two separate entities), but something like Creation - one power, one Intnet.

37 minutes ago, Arceoxys said:

Anyway, I'm curious what anyone thinks or if this has any merit or if it's been asked to Brandon.

That would 100% be a RAFO.

Edited April 29 by alder24

[Argenti]

36 minutes ago, Arceoxys said:

Anyway, the crux of my question is this: Is part of the reason for Sazed's inability to act (and potentially becoming of Discord if that is in fact what is happening) as Harmony is because everyone, seemingly including himself, thinks of Harmony as Ruin and Preservation, rather than a single entity?

 

Well, that's been my theory for a while. I've called Sazed an idiot before. I can't find the thread where I did, so I can't access the incredible amounts of WOBs Alder threw at me. But yeah, it makes sense; every other shard we've seen combines together, be they Dor, War, or Tower.  

[CtrlAltDepressed]

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

I believe that if Sazed were to properly merge those Shards, he would not be Harmony anymore (as it requires two separate entities), but something like Creation - one power, one Intnet.

 

With the addition of this wob:

 

Questioner

With the incredible ability Bondsmiths have to reassemble things, would they theoretically be able to reassemble Adonalsium himself out of the Shards if they were detached from their hosts?

Brandon Sanderson

This is kind of a chicken-and-the-egg question. Would they be able to reassemble Adonalsium? Can you use Adonalsium's own power to reassemble Adonalsium? Can someone externally do it? I'm gonna give you a RAFO on that right now, but I'm gonna warn you this idea of using something to reassemble itself is more tricky than you might assume, all right?

C2E2 2024 (April 26, 2024)

 

I would dare to say this isn't entirely Sazed's fault. I think this wob is implying that in the same way you need an external power to split the intents of a shard, you also need an external power to combine intents. That external power of course being the dawnshards. I think Brandon is slightly telling us here that it isn't as simple as combining them in the right way (surprise surprise). 

 

Also, i created a very similar thread if you would like to check out the replies. NOTE: FULL COSMERE SPOILERS IN THIS THREAD

https://www.17thshard.com/forums/topic/194162-tones-and-harmony/

 

Edited April 29 by CtrlAltDepressed

[Argenti]

1 hour ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

I would dare to say this isn't entirely Sazed's fault. I think this wob is implying that in the same way you need an external power to split the intents of a shard, you also need an external power to combine intents. That external power of course being the dawnshards. I think Brandon is slightly telling us here that it isn't as simple as combining them in the right way (surprise surprise). 

 

Well, you can combine two lights by voice alone? And by being a vessel, you define the rhythm the shards you command beat to.

[CtrlAltDepressed]

18 minutes ago, Argenti said:

Well, you can combine two lights by voice alone? And by being a vessel, you define the rhythm the shards you command beat to.

Towerlight / Warlight are not full combinations, they are Harmony-like combinations. I think that points more towards needing a dawnshard to actually fully merge the different intents. 

 

The rhythm of a shard should be independent of the vessel. I dont know if we have confirmation either way but it doesnt make sense to me that a pure tone could be changed. Thats the rhythm of that investiture, not much for a vessel to interpret imo.

[alder24]

2 hours ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

With the addition of this wob:

 

Spoiler

Questioner

With the incredible ability Bondsmiths have to reassemble things, would they theoretically be able to reassemble Adonalsium himself out of the Shards if they were detached from their hosts?

Brandon Sanderson

This is kind of a chicken-and-the-egg question. Would they be able to reassemble Adonalsium? Can you use Adonalsium's own power to reassemble Adonalsium? Can someone externally do it? I'm gonna give you a RAFO on that right now, but I'm gonna warn you this idea of using something to reassemble itself is more tricky than you might assume, all right?

C2E2 2024 (April 26, 2024)

 

I would dare to say this isn't entirely Sazed's fault. I think this wob is implying that in the same way you need an external power to split the intents of a shard, you also need an external power to combine intents. That external power of course being the dawnshards. I think Brandon is slightly telling us here that it isn't as simple as combining them in the right way (surprise surprise). 

That's a very good, new WoB. It's really strong evidence for what you're saying, I agree with you.

 

1 hour ago, Argenti said:

Well, you can combine two lights by voice alone?

Lights aren't Shards. They are just investiture combined together, but under the prism they still show separate bands of light, corresponding to their individual Shards. Lights aren't fully merged into one thing, Towerlight is made out of Stormlight and Lifelight, they are simply in harmony - the very chapter in which Warlight is created is called Harmony for a reason, and Harmony is two things working together in harmony. RoW ch 65:

Quote

The most interesting result happened when she tried the experiment on the Towerlight Raboniel had collected. It wasn’t Stormlight or Lifelight, but a combination of the two. When she tried the prism experiment with this light, two separate rainbows of colors—distinct from one another—split out of the prism.
She couldn’t recombine them. When she tried sending the colors through another prism, she ended up with one beam of white-blue light and a separate beam of white-green light, overlapping but not combined as Towerlight was.

 

1 hour ago, Argenti said:

And by being a vessel, you define the rhythm the shards you command beat to.

We have no proof of that. Pure Tones seem to be a mirror reflection of Shardic intents, they aren't defined by the Vessel directly.

Edited April 29 by alder24

[CtrlAltDepressed]

On 4/29/2024 at 5:12 PM, alder24 said:

That's a very good, new WoB. It's really strong evidence for what you're saying, I agree with you.