Szeth's Oathstone

[Yados]

Maybe this was obvious, but I'm beginning to suspect that it's just a rock and not at all magical. Part of Szeth's punishment is that his honor requires him to do whatever the person who holds the stone says no matter how horrible. To break his word would be disaster to both his own identity and maybe magic stuff. It's Szeth's own honor that's keeping him bound of the stone.

I mean who knows what goes on in Shinovar.

Do you think that Radiants lose their powers if they break their word?

[Satsuoni he/him]

Well, you may be right about the rock just being the rock

As for the breaking of the word -I'd say that starting to act dishonorably will weaken them until the powers leave them completely. So that'd depend on how dishonorable his act would be.. But I'd say, at least severely weakened.

[Sweetness she/her]

It's not just a rock. It's a symbol. Possibly a metaphor.

On the Radiants, I think Sats is right. If honorable acts gain you power, then dishonorable ones should get it taken away.

Kind of a positive reinforcement thing, really.

[Dros]

I always imagined the Oathstone as being similar to the black spheres in shadesmar.

[Telcontar]

I agree, the Oathstone is just a chunk of rock. Nothing else.

But remember that stone is sacred to the Shin.

Also, Szeth's Oathstone is nothing special, every Shin warrior has one, it just shows the ownership.

And, at one time Szeth is thinking about how his masters try to hide the fact, that they are his masters just because of a small piece of rock.

[Sweetness she/her]

Wait. But what if it isn't a rock?

... Wait for it..

It's a Rock Lobster!

XD *dances*

[Chaos he/him]

I theorized a long time ago in the Principle of Intent topic that if Szeth broke his word, he'd lose his powers. I definitely think that one makes sense.

[Trizee]

If breaking his word made Szeth lose his powers- wouldn't that be a incentive for him to brake his word? Szeth doesn't at all like having to be an assassin, and if he lost his powers, his usefullness as an assassin would severely dimnish. So, I don't think that losing his powers is the reason that Szeth won't break his oath, but rather that it's probably some Shin thing.

That being said, there is no reason to say that breaking his oath won't take away Szeth's powers (They come from Honor after all), but that wouldn't be the reason that he doesn't break his oath.

[Asha'man Logain]

I theorized a long time ago in the Principle of Intent topic that if Szeth broke his word, he'd lose his powers. I definitely think that one makes sense.

But also remember that 'something different' is going on with Szeth. His powers may be based on his Truthless status, rather than the normal 'Radiant-naheel bond-action based' powers that the others in the world are manifesting.

[TravelLog]

What if Szeth committed murder with stone as a weapon? That would certainly be about as sacrilegious as possible for

a Shin, and would warrant him being deemed Truthless.

[Truthless he/him]

Well! *cough* I'm rather a fan of Szeth. I don't personally believe the oathstone is just a rock. Szeth mentions how it both forces him to obey its holder and prevents him from killing himself. I presume this means Szeth had tried and found himself blocked. If it was just his own honor holding him back, even if he believed it was somehow the rock, I think it would have been presented differently. I do think it's a magic rock.

As to what he did to become Truthless - not sure. It revolves around the Shardblade for sure, although whether his acquiring it earned him the title or he was given it as part of his punishment I don't know.

A Radiant would lose power over time if he or she stopped acting honorably, yes, most likely. That's not necessarily breaking their word, though. There might be a situation where they had to break their word to do the right thing. That why I hesitate to speculate on why Szeth is a special case. He has to obey whoever holds his stone, and obedience is a kind of honor, but assassination is not honorable. Could lead to speculation that whatever force determines if a person is honorable is not a thinking force,

a bit like the mist on Scadrial after Preservation's cognitive aspect died.

Edited July 5, 2012 by Truthless

[Yados]

A Radiant would lose power over time if he or she stopped acting honorably, yes, most likely. That's not necessarily breaking their word, though. There might be a situation where they had to break their word to do the right thing. That why I hesitate to speculate on why Szeth is a special case. He has to obey whoever holds his stone, and obedience is a kind of honor, but assassination is not honorable. Could lead to speculation that whatever force determines if a person is honorable is not a thinking force,

a bit like the mist on Scadrial after Preservation's cognitive aspect died.

Now *thats* an interesting thought.

And it might be why Sanderson said there was some disagreement amongst Spren as to which Spren are Honorspren. Or something like that.

Edited July 6, 2012 by Yados

[TruthlessShin]

Regarding the reason behind szeth's punishment. I believe the title 'truthless' is the big hint here. Remember that shallan has to speak a 'powerful truth' in order to gain access to shadesmar. So it is likely that szeth either entered shadesmar himself (possibly this is against shin law) or committed some illegal act using shadesmar. Either way, it gives szeth the ability to access it. Once he (inevitably) frees himself from his imprisonment.

[LightReader she/her]

I hadn't heard the bit about the disagreement amongst spren about which ones are Honorspren. Could we get a reference for that? Is there a thread where that idea is being discussed already?

Also, I lean towards there being a bit more binding Szeth than just his word, some actual magic binding him so that he cannot commit suicide, etc. However if the rock is magical itself, then could Szeth be released from his Truthlessness simply by someone destroying the stone? That seems like it might be too easy. Which sends me back towards the rock itself not being magical, and just a symbol that determines who his master is. So perhaps there is real magic holding him to his word, even while the rock is not magical in and of itself but simply some kind of focus object?

[Windrunner he/him]

This is the best that we have on dissent about which spren are honorspren.

Zas: Nohaden mentioned that “All the spren aren’t as discerning as Honorspren.”

Brandon: So there has been dissention among them about who gets to call themselves Honorspren, if that makes sense, and there is some disagreement among scholars about which ones are really, you know “This is what defines an

But the spren you are running into are all (something) ofeither Honor or Cultivation, or some mixture between them. And you can usually tell the ones that are more Honor, and the ones that are more Cultivation. That should be able ot be (something).

Note that the spren are not the ones disagreeing. I hope this helps

[Zas678 he/him]

You know, from the context, I was pretty sure that the spren were the ones disagreeing. It may have been me misinterpreting what I was hearing, but that's what I believed at the time.

[Windrunner he/him]

I see what you mean. The "them" is obviously spren. My bad!

[Vikter]

Perhaps the Oathstone has something in common with the stones that Tein used to find (sorry if that was discussed in another thread). With how important stone is in all of Roshar, and espcially Holy to the Shin, that if Tein sees something important in a stone than there might actually be. Maybe there is a petrified Spren or a similar peice of Honor or Cultivation that only somepeople can see ( like Rock being able to see Syl).

Of course it could also have just been a literary device to show Teins childish nature and make us feel more for Kal when he gets skewered. However I have a hard time dismissing small details in any of Sandersons books.

[Lady_Yasha she/her]

Radiants aside, with slavery being a predominant aspect in the books I'd like to believe that Szeth's stone is a fake. It would seem a large influence on Sel is intimidation through force and implied power.

Kaladin realises that even as a slave he has power over the acts of his Bridge. The command to run straight at the Parshendi is obeyed because slaves are terrified of death as a certainty, where there was always a chance at survival if they ran.

Therefore, by the same rule I believe Szeth's stone could be a threat of implied power over his individuality.

[Trizee]

Radiants aside, with slavery being a predominant aspect in the books I'd like to believe that Szeth's stone is a fake. It would seem a large influence on Sel is intimidation through force and implied power.

That would be Roshar, not Sel.

[Dros]

This is the best that we have on dissent about which spren are honorspren.

Zas: Nohaden mentioned that “All the spren aren’t as discerning as Honorspren.”

Brandon: So there has been dissention among them about who gets to call themselves Honorspren, if that makes sense, and there is some disagreement among scholars about which ones are really, you know “This is what defines an

But the spren you are running into are all (something) ofeither Honor or Cultivation, or some mixture between them. And you can usually tell the ones that are more Honor, and the ones that are more Cultivation. That should be able ot be (something).

Note that the spren are not the ones disagreeing. I hope this helps

Whoa, wait...it was my understanding the spren were splinters of Honor. If some of the spren are of Cultivation, does that mean Cultivation has been splintered too?

Edited July 10, 2012 by Droz

[Windrunner he/him]

Haha thank you Droz! No one has seemed to terribly interested thus far. It would seem that Cultivation is at least partially Splintered, although if this is intentional on her part or not is still unknown.

[Dros]

I see...this just opened up a whole new world of completely unsupported theories for me.

[TruthlessShin]

(warning, mistborn spoilers below)

Ok, here's an idea: maybe the majority of spren are like the metals were in mistborn... Not representative of either shard in particular. But, there are some like honorspren (and apparently cultivationspren) that are.

These would be like the atium and lerasium of those shards. It works too, seeing as syl imbues kaladin with some powers of honor in the same way lerasium imbues the person with preservation's magic, allomancy.

[Dros]

This could get pretty gruesome if you have to burn spren to get some use out of 'em.