The proper timing for the big reveal in WoR epilogue

[sun tzaro]

It does seem Gawx was dead and Lift brought him back from dead. My issue is that bringing a dead person back is the holy grail of magic and it should have huge costs. Healing from an injury or illness, however severe, seems par for the course. But even it also should not be without consequences. To my mind, flying or even soulcasting and elsecalling do not level up to bringing the dead back. If reviving the dead can be done so cheaply (Any Edgedancer or Truthwatcher at hand can do it.) then all our heroes and anti-heroes will keep coming back after dying. That will not be good reading at all.

 

 

Regrowth can only be used to revive the recently dead. We know this from Nalan's spiel about the Fabrial, and from this passage:

 

 

Gawx lay in a pool of blood that had darkened the fine carpet. The viziers and guards surrounded him, speaking in hushed tones. 

 

Lift crawled up to him. His body was still warm, but the blood seemed to have stopped flowing. His eyes were closed.

 

"Too late?" she whispered. 

 

"I don't know," Wyndle said, curling up beside her. 

 

Gawx had died less than a minute before, and Wyndle believes that it may already be too late to revive him. 

 

 

The use of Regrowth in reviving the dead also appears to be extremely limited. This is clear from two passages.

 

 

Lift leaned forward, touched her forehead to his, and breathed out. A shimmering something left her lips, a little cloud of glowing light. It hung in front of Gawx's lips. 

 

...

 

She sagged, suddenly exhausted. Real exhausted, so much that even standing was difficult.  

 

...

 

"There are tons of people who do wrong things," she said. She had to force out every word. Talking was hard. Thinking was hard. So tired.

 

...

 

Lift felt numb. She tried to summon her awesomeness, but she'd used it all up. And then some, probably. 

 

...

 

"You should," she said, exhausted. "You should... should try it, I mean. I wanted to be like you, once. Didn't work out. Wasn't... even like being alive..."

 

...

Feeling completely drained—like somebody had held her up by the toes and squeezed everything out of her—Lift forced her eyes to open.

 

Lift is completely incapacitated after reviving Gawx, and her exhaustion seems to extend beyond just having run out of Stormlight.

 

True, at this point, Lift is an untrained second-Oath Edgedancer. However, I think it is reasonable to expect that where Regrowth is concerned, the degree of the injury is proportional to the amount of skill and power necessary to heal said injury.

 

Gawx had only a cut throat. Szeth was pierced once just below the neck (Kaladin claims that this blow severed his spine, but we know that Shardblades don't cut flesh). Now, I can't pretend to know just how much more potent one injury can be considered than another when the Surge of Regrowth is involved, but I would assume that compared to decapitation or some of the more serious fatal wounds that can occur on the battlefield, a slit throat and a Shardblade wound are relatively minor. 

 

 

The second passage:

 

 

 

...Lady knight, could you heal him again?"

 

"I should save Regrowth for others who might be wounded," the woman said, glancing at the village. 

 

So, while the Regrowth fabrials clearly aren't so valuable that they can't be used to save the common folk, their use is limited. The woman in this quote has glowing tan eyes and a Shardplate that glows with amber light. She is clearly a Stoneward.

 

It is telling that an Edgedancer was not dispatched. The Edgedancers are described as lithe and deadly warriors; abrasion also gives them mobility that would no doubt allow them to respond to disasters far faster than Stonewards. This leads to the conclusion that either the services of Edgedancers are required elsewhere, or that Regrowth requires so much energy that an Edgedancer would be forced to rely on fabrials anyhow, and so would be no more effective than any other Order using fabrials to aid the wounded. Of course, maybe there were Edgedancers there, but Dalinar just didn't see any. 

 

My bet is that Regrowth fabrials are something along the lines of metalminds - they must be created and empowered by Truthwatchers or Edgedancers and require a great deal of time to create. To me, this is the only plausible explanation Sanderson could go for, since it would make sense for the Radiants to have a stockpile of such devices in preparation for a Desolation, but force the Radiants to be conservative in their use.

 

 

Szeth was killed by a shardblade. So he must have died instantaneously and his eyes were burnt out. He was killed above the Shattered plains and revived in the Frostlands. 

 

See here:

 

 

"I waited until you crashed to the ground," the main said, until you were broken and mangled, your soul cut through, dead for certain.

 

It seems to me that Szeth was revived immediately after hitting the ground, but only gained consciousness later.

 

 

 So I think his death and resurrection narrative should have been avoided. Perhaps Kaladin should have only taken away his blade and let him go once he showed repentance. Then Nalan could have teamed up with him..

 

I think you are missing a crucial part of Szeth's narrative, and a crucial part of the interaction between Szeth and Nalan.

 

Szeth is not repenting. You can't repent for the slaughter of thousands, both guilty and innocent. Nalan doesn't expect him to.

 

Szeth's resurrection is his rebirth. He is no longer Truthless, and only dying has allowed him to walk a new path—the path of a Skybreaker.

 

 

"I have destroyed myself," Szeth whispered.

 

"You did, and you died. Your bond to your Blade severed, all ties—both spiritual and physical—undone. You are reborn. Come along. It is time to visit your people. Your training begins immediately." Nin began to walk away, revealing that the thing he held behind his back was a sheathed sword.

 

You are reborn. Could he... could Szeth be reborn? Could he make the screams in the shadows go away?

 

 

Something tells me that Szeth isn't going back to Shinovar to seek forgiveness. 

[Twenty@20]

Well, I concede that the concept of death is pretty fuzzy in the cosmere. At what point it becomes irreversible is not yet clear. I will however reiterate that using this ploy might open a flood gate of expectations in subsequent stories. People may start to expect their heroes to come back especially if the Regrowth fabrial becomes commonplace.

The metalminds are exclusive to the feruchemist and cannot be used to revive others. So if a character without gold feruchemy dies, we know he stays dead. However if a gold feruchemy 'fabrial' comes up later in mistborn I will feel let down

Also I did say that to call a person dead his brain must stop working. The heart or kidney or liver stopping to work is not death until the brain stops working as a consequence. Doctors all over the world follow this protocol only. Check if the brain is dead or not. Because that is irreversible

[sun tzaro]

The metalminds are exclusive to the feruchemist and cannot be used to revive others. 

 

Of course. I was suggesting that Regrowth fabrials are like metalminds in the sense that they create time and effort to create, but their power can be expended quickly.

 

 

 People may start to expect their heroes to come back especially if the Regrowth fabrial becomes commonplace.

 

 

If the hero dies and is not immediately revived, or if the hero dies of an incredibly severe injury (burned flesh all over, internal organs missing), a Regrowth fabrial will not be able to save them. 

 

 

Also I did say that to call a person dead his brain must stop working. The heart or kidney or liver stopping to work is not death until the brain stops working as a consequence. Doctors all over the world follow this protocol only. Check if the brain is dead or not. Because that is irreversible

 

Okay, then the fabrials were not used to revive dead people, by your definition of dead.

 

 

"Impossible."

 

"Not if it is done before the brain dies. Like a drowned man, restored to life with the proper ministrations, you could be restored with the right fabrial. If i had waited seconds longer, of course, it would have been too late."

[Twenty@20]

@ sun tzaro. If your theory that Regrowth fabrials have to be created by Edgedancers or Truthwatchers, then where do you think Nalan got his. For Nalan to use KR technology is self defeating, since he is killing KRs. If Nalan wants to stop desolation from happening he should not be carrying around KR tech.

I like the concept that making these fabrials and using regrowth is very exhausting for KRs. But still that means some guys will get preference over others regarding getting Regrowth. Perhaps KRs will first help KRs just because they are more valuable. So reader expectations will remain.

Regarding Szeth

“I don’t know what that means,” Kaladin said. “But you never had to kill.”

“My orders—”

“Excuses! If that was why you murdered, then you’re not the evil man I assumed. You’re a coward instead.”

Szeth looked him in the eyes, then nodded. He pushed Kaladin back, then moved to swing.

Kaladin drove his hands forward, forming Syl into a sword. He expected a parry. The move was intended to draw Szeth out of his attack pattern.

Szeth did not parry. He just closed his eyes.

It looks to me that Szeth accepts Kaladin's charges and finally allows Kaladin to kill him. That tells me Szeth was repenting killing people. After Nalan revives him, he wishes to stay dead. He admits he has destroyed himself. Isn't that repentance? It is but natural now Szeth will go to punish The Stone Shammans for turning him into a killer. I feel he should go after Taravangian first but perhaps Nalan is playing politics.

So my point was Szeth saw his mistake before his death and so perhaps it could have been avoided. Even if Kaladin did not kill him he would have shed his Truthless burden and gone after the Shamman. Only one point in favor of being reborn is that he may stop hearing the screams. But he still has all his memories so his guilt would still remain.

Sun tzaro I did say earlier that calling a person dead implying his brain has also stopped working(at least that's how it works in our world). And Nalan does say that Szeth died at least twice. Of course I admit that definition of dead is bit fuzzy in the cosmere. And we won't know the limitations of Regrowth untill we see cases where it fails. Who knows it can't regrow entire organs. After all storm light did regrow Lopen's arm. The basis is same

Edited October 24, 2014 by Twenty@20

[Purelake Earthquake]

Alright, I'll accept that this whole thing could have been more clear, from what I've heard this was a fairly common problem for a lot of people, which I take as proof that there is some level of problem with it.  I still have no problems with it personally, though.

 

I'd say Gandalf's scenario had a higher cost, with the whole fellowship basically falling to pieces, because he was solving a larger conflict.

 

I think a lot of what was going on still remains to be seen.  Maybe Stormlight Healing could only preserve her long enough to get her into Shadesmar.  I don't know, wild speculation.  But that's the only kind I can make.  All we have right now is a non-canonical scene that shows the base concept of what went down and raised a lot more questions than answers.  The context of where the scene is placed is probably also important.   I'm pretty sure we'll see a lot of the reasons why all this happens in book 3 or book Jasnah.  I'm sure there's a good in world reason for everything.

 

I could come up with some reasons why Jasnah wouldn't foreshadow like that.  She's not exactly one to dole out mounds of information.  It's probably a lot harder to do anything with your weak surge before you have any practice in your strong one, and Jasnah did kind of tell Shallan about Soulcasting in book one.  From the looks of it in the bonus scene Jasnah know next to nothing about how Elsecalling works.

But, all that doesn't really matter because Jasnah could have at least said "All orders have two Surges, mine are Soulcasting and Transportation".  Then, when Jasnah's body disappears you could have thought back to that.

 

I'm pretty much a take things as they come kind of reader.  So, when I don't have all the information I tend to give the benefit of the doubt.  And if anyone's proven themselves worth of that it's Sanderson.

 

So, my full judgement on this waits until Stones Unhallowed.

[Moogle]

@ sun tzaro. If your theory that Regrowth fabrials have to be created by Edgedancers or Truthwatchers, then where do you think Nalan got his. For Nalan to use KR technology is self defeating, since he is killing KRs. If Nalan wants to stop desolation from happening he should not be carrying around KR tech.

 

Why not? Nalan believes Surgebinders bring the Desolation, not Surgebinding fabrials. He'd have never taken back his Honorblade if it was the act of Surgebinding was the problem. (Assuming he did, which is a safe assumption: he takes in Stormlight.)

 

I also imagine he got the fabrial long ago, back before the Recreance. As Soulcasting fabrials show, all you need to do is recharge the gems that you stick in them. They're renewable in that sense. It'd have lasted that long so long as he didn't break it.

[Twenty@20]

If Regrowth fabrial can only be made and recharged by Knight Radiants as theorised,then it is not a simple matter of just recharging it by stormlight. If it were so, then where the great cost needed to use regrowth as implied by sun tzaro. I think the regrowth fabrial has to be recharged by the Radiants themselves, therefore they were not seen in absence of Radiants unlike soulcasting fabrial.

If we follow this line of reasoning, then Nalan can't go to a Radiant and say recharge this fabrial before I kill you.

Of course it may be so that Nalan had a recharged Regrowth fabrial since before recreance. In that case Szeth was incredibly lucky.

[Moogle]

If Regrowth fabrial can only be made and recharged by Knight Radiants as theorised,then it is not a simple matter of just recharging it by stormlight. If it were so, then where the great cost needed to use regrowth as implied by sun tzaro. I think the regrowth fabrial has to be recharged by the Radiants themselves, therefore they were not seen in absence of Radiants unlike soulcasting fabrial.

If we follow this line of reasoning, then Nalan can't go to a Radiant and say recharge this fabrial before I kill you.

 

Soulcasters, which are Transformation fabrials, can be recharged via swapping gems. I really don't think a Radiant is required. Every fabrial we've seen uses charged gems, and all gems can be charged via highstorm. Only modern fabrials use trapped spren in their gems (which means they can't be swapped out, though they can be set out in a highstorm) so far as we know.

Edited October 24, 2014 by Moogle

[Twenty@20]

I will remain a doubter regarding the Regrowth fabrial till Mr. Sanderson shows us clearly how it works and also I believe we don't know much about how Soulcasters work. Same about the Transportation fabrials of Oathgates.

By the by, the more we discuss Radiant powers the more it becomes clear how seriously powerful our heroes are. It is one thing to have an extra powerful villain like the Lord Ruler or even Miles Hundredlives, because it raises the stakes for heroes. However when our heroes are becoming so powerful, I only wonder how powerful the voidbringers will be. The sense of too little, too late that is growing among the Radiants is perhaps good for the story as otherwise they are very powerful.

Edited October 24, 2014 by Twenty@20

[Aleksiel]

I feel a Regrowth fabrial that could bring back someone from the dead needs a higher price than gems, stormlight and right timing. It's true it's limited to only a short while after death (whatever we define as death), but it still seems too op. That might be just a personal preference, but it makes the death of a character cheap.

 

If there are all sorts of fabrials based on the surges and they don't require a KR, then why and how were they lost and only soulcasters remained?  Also, if such fabrials were common, why isn't there anything written about them, not even a legend or a myth? This needs some serious explanation.

 

And soulcasters as well: Shallan and Jasnah both have to convince (well, Jasnah not so much  ) the thing they want to soulcast to change, yet soulcasters seem to wok differently. So will all surge-based fabrial work differently - how and why? So many questions...

[Moogle]

I feel a Regrowth fabrial that could bring back someone from the dead needs a higher price than gems, stormlight and right timing. It's true it's limited to only a short while after death (whatever we define as death), but it still seems too op. That might be just a personal preference, but it makes the death of a character cheap.

 

How many situations are you going to be in where someone can be healed back from death within the few minute time limit? If it's a heroic sacrifice, chances are no one's available to revive them. I don't think deaths where it's a serious "hey they're dead" are going to result in revivals very often. Szeth will likely stand out in that regard... and his death still had a significant price, in that he lost his Honorblade.

 

If there are all sorts of fabrials based on the surges and they don't require a KR, then why and how were they lost and only soulcasters remained?  Also, if such fabrials were common, why isn't there anything written about them, not even a legend or a myth? This needs some serious explanation.

 

And soulcasters as well: Shallan and Jasnah both have to convince (well, Jasnah not so much  ) the thing they want to soulcast to change, yet soulcasters seem to wok differently. So will all surge-based fabrial work differently - how and why? So many questions...

 

The usage of Soulcasters changes you. The ardents using them have their skin turned to cracked stone, their eyes turn to gems, that sort of thing. I imagine this is the reason you don't see any fabrials but Soulcasters in use: the price is simply too high. I also suspect Soulcasters were the most commonly made fabrial pre-Recreance, since creating food and water and shelter would have been the top priority. What use does someone have for a Gravity fabrial? Buildings are Soulcasted, and the fabrial is likely too limited to use it in combat.

 

Also, given the secrecy surrounding fabrials, I would not be surprised to find that the ardents also have a few orders of people dedicated to each Surge. Soulcasters wear red robes, perhaps there's Gravity users with blue robes hidden away in some country estates.

 

Radiants can use fabrials no problem because of Stormlight healing, but regular people can't. So a lot fabrials left over after the Recreance would have fallen into disuse, and there's also a significant possibility Nalan and the Skybreakers made it their job to retrieve them all.

 

I also suspect that the ardents are doing the same thing Jasnah and Shallan are doing with Shadesmar. Keep in mind that one of the ardents in the interludes wonders whether or not someone has eaten food in Shadesmar. They're obviously capable of visiting it.

Edited October 24, 2014 by Moogle

[Aleksiel]

How many situations are you going to be in where someone can be healed back from death within the few minute time limit? If it's a heroic sacrifice, chances are no one's available to revive them. I don't think deaths where it's a serious "hey they're dead" are going to result in revivals very often. Szeth will likely stand out in that regard... and his death still had a significant price, in that he lost his Honorblade.

 

 

The usage of Soulcasters changes you. The ardents using them have their skin turned to cracked stone, their eyes turn to gems, that sort of thing. I imagine this is the reason you don't see any fabrials but Soulcasters in use: the price is simply too high. I also suspect Soulcasters were the most commonly made fabrial pre-Recreance, since creating food and water and shelter would have been the top priority. What use does someone have for a Gravity fabrial? Buildings are Soulcasted, and the fabrial is likely too limited to use it in combat.

 

Also, given the secrecy surrounding fabrials, I would not be surprised to find that the ardents also have a few orders of people dedicated to each Surge. Soulcasters wear red robes, perhaps there's Gravity users with blue robes hidden away in some country estates.

 

Radiants can use fabrials no problem because of Stormlight healing, but regular people can't. So a lot fabrials left over after the Recreance would have fallen into disuse, and there's also a significant possibility Nalan and the Skybreakers made it their job to retrieve them all.

 

I also suspect that the ardents are doing the same thing Jasnah and Shallan are doing with Shadesmar. Keep in mind that one of the ardents in the interludes wonders whether or not someone has eaten food in Shadesmar. They're obviously capable of visiting it.

 

It's a personal preference I suppose. I generally don't like the revival of a dead character and expect a high price for it. The Honorblade is not a price Nin paid to get Szeth back from the dead, he just used a fabrial. Makes me wonder why didn't everybody in a Desolation just go around caring one. There would be many wounded in a Desolation and we saw a Radiant having a Regrowth fabrial, so I think these fabrials should have been if not as many, then at least the second most common type after soulcasters. I highly doubt Nale has all of them. So what happened to those regrowth fabrials?

[Moogle]

Makes me wonder why didn't everybody in a Desolation just go around caring one. There would be many wounded in a Desolation and we saw a Radiant having a Regrowth fabrial, so I think these fabrials should have been if not as many, then at least the second most common type after soulcasters. I highly doubt Nale has all of them. So what happened to those regrowth fabrials?

 

Regarding Szeth, I guess it is just personal feelings. I view it no differently than if someone mortally wounded was healed, and Kaladin's been doing that since forever. The protagonists are just really high-powered.

 

As to the use of Regrowth: there aren't going to be that many wounded, or else there's going to be too many. I'm not sure. There's going to be a lot of people outright dead, since I doubt the Voidbringers are going to show mercy and let you run away.

 

If you put a Regrowth fabrial in the middle of a combat, chances are that soldier is going to lose it as they die... and they're just too valuable to risk like that. Also, they'd have to touch the person they're healing, which is dangerous during combat and opens you up to being killed. Soulcasters have the very desirable property of being usable out of combat to great effect.

 

Another possibility is that there's too many wounded and they just don't have enough gems to heal all of them, so they just kept their gems for use with Soulcasters and saved Regrowth for limited cases.

 

There's also a very limited amount of Soulcasters relative to the population - I'd estimate perhaps several thousand Soulcasters, if that, for a world with a population of millions (minimum). Not everyone and their mother can carry a Regrowth fabrial around if they were less popular than Soulcasters. The Radiant in Dalinar's vision was using it in a time of peace, when they only had to deal with the Midnight Essence. It would have been free for the taking, since the demand for such fabrials would be limited.

 

As to where the fabrials are... I don't know. They're useful, even if they twist you and turn you into a monster as a consequence of their use. Given that Nalan has an estimated 2 fabrials at least, I'd be surprised if he didn't have every Surge available to him. This implies to me that he spent some serious time collecting them. I'd have few issues with him having confiscated them all over time, but I recognize that would be really hard.

 

As a final note: we have to wonder how the fabrials were made. Given their relative scarcity, I like my theory that it requires a Knight's spren to Splinter themselves, in essence mimicking Honor's creation of the Honorblades to a lesser degree. It could be that non-Cryptics/oilspren were very loathe to create fabrials for whatever reason.

 

This is really fertile ground for theories, I think. I'm eager for book 3.

Edited October 25, 2014 by Moogle

[Aleksiel]

Regarding Szeth, I guess it is just personal feelings. I view it no differently than if someone mortally wounded was healed, and Kaladin's been doing that since forever. The protagonists are just really high-powered.

 

As to the use of Regrowth: there aren't going to be that many wounded, or else there's going to be too many. I'm not sure. There's going to be a lot of people outright dead, since I doubt the Voidbringers are going to show mercy and let you run away.

 

If you put a Regrowth fabrial in the middle of a combat, chances are that soldier is going to lose it as they die... and they're just too valuable to risk like that. Also, they'd have to touch the person they're healing, which is dangerous during combat and opens you up to being killed. Soulcasters have the very desirable property of being usable out of combat to great effect.

 

Another possibility is that there's too many wounded and they just don't have enough gems to heal all of them, so they just kept their gems for use with Soulcasters and saved Regrowth for limited cases.

 

There's also a very limited amount of Soulcasters relative to the population - I'd estimate perhaps several thousand Soulcasters, if that, for a world with a population of millions (minimum). Not everyone and their mother can carry a Regrowth fabrial around if they were less popular than Soulcasters. The Radiant in Dalinar's vision was using it in a time of peace, when they only had to deal with the Midnight Essence. It would have been free for the taking, since the demand for such fabrials would be limited.

 

I agree the Voidbringers probably wouldn't leave any survivors, but things like the Midnight Essence seemed within the abilities of the normal soldiers, so there would be hurt people in the need of healing and it would be hard, but still doable to have a team that takes care of the wounded and if possible revives someone. Also, if you're giving away soulcasters to people, it makes perfect sense to give the a regrowth fabrial as well. It's kind of funny you refer to the attack of the Midnight Essense as a time of peace. I get your point, though. 

 

However, I still think it makes sense for regrowth fabrials to be among the most common type after soulcasters - a considerable amount of people would require healing due to injuries, famine and illnesses; healing should happen as fast as possible for humanity to rebuild what was destroyed in a Desolation.

 

I think it's a bit odd there are no legends left of Radiants reviving dead people - those things get exaggerated in legends, but completely lost? Not even a myth? And how come the lack of any surge-based fabrials except soulcasters? Too hard to be made, too easily broken, too inefficient? Plenty of possibilities. That's if there were any other surge-based fabrials, of course.

 

 

 

As to where the fabrials are... I don't know. They're useful, even if they twist you and turn you into a monster as a consequence of their use. Given that Nalan has an estimated 2 fabrials at least, I'd be surprised if he didn't have every Surge available to him. This implies to me that he spent some serious time collecting them. I'd have few issues with him having confiscated them all over time, but I recognize that would be really hard.

 

Yes, if there's a fabrial for every surge, I absolutely agree Nalan has made sure to have at least one of each type.

 

 

As a final note: we have to wonder how the fabrials were made. Given their relative scarcity, I like my theory that it requires a Knight's spren to Splinter themselves, in essence mimicking Honor's creation of the Honorblades to a lesser degree. It could be that non-Cryptics/oilspren were very loathe to create fabrials for whatever reason.

 

This is really fertile ground for theories, I think. I'm eager for book 3.

 

This could be it. Fabrials are fascinating, though I suspect  learning more about them will be saved for later books.