Steel he/him Posted October 19, 2014 Report Share Posted October 19, 2014 I was talking to a friend the other day about time travel, and the multiple theories about it, both on how it can be implemented, and the actual happenings after it was implemented. My own belief is that all eras exist at the same time, and thus it is not in fact time travel that must be achieved, but instead space travel. Now, if time travel is, at some date at another location in the time/space continuum, put to practice, then changes to the past would, in fact, affect the future. With that in mind, I move on to the topic of time travel within the Cosmere. Since the various Worldhoppers we know of (Hoid, 17th Shard) are all able to move through space, and thus time. We know this because of the fact that Hoid was there when Adonalsium shattered (WoB), and he was also there when the Final Empire fell (beggar), as well as roundabouts the time of the marriage of Siri and the God King (storyteller). This means that time travel within the Cosmere is possible, and what we call worldhopping is in fact time travel, since if Hoid hopped from Scadrial to Nalthis, something else, before Siri's marriage, would have been happening. So either Hoid hops worlds and waits until a significant event occurs, which is pretty unlike Hoid, or, he travels in space, and again, thus time. If the secret to worldhopping is found out, therefore, time travel will become widely possible, and the results of this could be chaotic. If Szeth, for example, with all the power he has as Harmony, could travel back to the time during which Adonalsium shatters, he would cause a paradox, since Ruin and Preservation would exist at the same as him. On the other hand, if Odium travels to Scadrial before the destruction of Ruin, and somehow convinces him to join his cause, with, for example, clever words suggesting Ruin through the process of Hate, they could effectively Ruin the Cosmere. Travel through Shadesmar is a form of worldhopping, and so all people on Roshar with 'truthspren' or Soulcasting abilities, if told how to enter Shadesmar, would be able to travel around time. If a time traveler within the Cosmere merely traveled with the fourth dimension, Duration, and not through any other dimension within space, they could, effectively, travel to an earlier point and change events completely, or travel to a prehistoric time within their worlds. I'm not even going to start talking about future traveling. Feel free to point out any flaws in my logic. Constructive criticism welcome. Let the floodgates open! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fallen Rope he/him Posted October 19, 2014 Report Share Posted October 19, 2014 It has been confirmed that Hoid can travel forward in time so he doesn't wait for things to happen, but I don't think it can happen backwards in the cosmere. I think time travel can only happen like it does in Alloy of law, travelling back in time would have to many paradoxes unlike the laws of the cosmere. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
king of nowhere Posted October 19, 2014 Report Share Posted October 19, 2014 hoid do not age and the several cosmere stories are separated by a few centuries. he simply waits a lot. or maybe he burns a lot of cadmium when there's nothing to do. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redbird he/him Posted October 19, 2014 Report Share Posted October 19, 2014 (edited) Also since WoK and AoL happen simultaneously, Hoid has to leave part way through WoK to attend the wedding between the Yomen and Ostlin that Wax also attends in AoL. Edited October 21, 2014 by Redbird3000 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green Hoodie Mistborn he/him Posted October 20, 2014 Report Share Posted October 20, 2014 hoid do not age and the several cosmere stories are separated by a few centuries. he simply waits a lot. or maybe he burns a lot of cadmium when there's nothing to do. Per this WoB, Hoid has thus far only moved forward in time. That does leave open the possibility of traveling to the past, but to me it implies that if he could do it, he would have done it because he is trying to fix something through his adventures. Also since WoK and AoL happen simultaneously, Hoid has to leave part way through WoK to attend the wedding Yomen and Ostlin that Wax also attends in AoL. Also of interest to me, now that I think about it. That means that the events of SA (Final Desolation), correspond with a group on Scadrial trying to build a Mistborn through Hemalurgy... connections, connections... I wonder. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted October 20, 2014 Report Share Posted October 20, 2014 Also of interest to me, now that I think about it. That means that the events of SA (Final Desolation), correspond with a group on Scadrial trying to build a Mistborn through Hemalurgy... connections, connections... I wonder. I don't think the Set is trying to use Hemalurgy, as they seem to be breeding the women they captured, rather than stealing Allomancers and spiking them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redbird he/him Posted October 21, 2014 Report Share Posted October 21, 2014 Marasi does have a book on hemalurgy though, so there could be more hemalurgy in Shadows of Self or later books, but she probably won't be spiking anyone anytime soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotAnotherWit Posted October 26, 2014 Report Share Posted October 26, 2014 If time travel backwards were possible wouldn't wit/hoid or anyone in the 17th shard travel back to before the splitting of the shards and stop it from happening - or they could have chosen a better person than Rayse to take up the shard of hatred. I mean Ati who was a good and kind man took ruin - but even ruin initially worked with preservation to make Scadrial. So technically if time travel backwards were possible, they would have replaced Rayse with someone "less eviler" who wouldn't have caused as much chaos as Rayse - since this did not happen (coz if this were possible I am pretty sure wit would have done it by now), I do not think that time travel backwards would be possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steel he/him Posted October 26, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 26, 2014 But the shard would then taint its holder eventually, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vikachu Posted October 26, 2014 Report Share Posted October 26, 2014 I think it's more cryogenic sleep than time travel. I asked Sanderson about Hoid's age a while back in a Reddit AMA and he said: >He's been alive since Dragonsteel. However, he may not have spent all of that time awake and alert. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Topomouse he/him Posted October 26, 2014 Report Share Posted October 26, 2014 I was talking to a friend the other day about time travel, and the multiple theories about it, both on how it can be implemented, and the actual happenings after it was implemented. My own belief is that all eras exist at the same time, and thus it is not in fact time travel that must be achieved, but instead space travel. Now, if time travel is, at some date at another location in the time/space continuum, put to practice, then changes to the past would, in fact, affect the future. With that in mind, I move on to the topic of time travel within the Cosmere. Since the various Worldhoppers we know of (Hoid, 17th Shard) are all able to move through space, and thus time. We know this because of the fact that Hoid was there when Adonalsium shattered (WoB), and he was also there when the Final Empire fell (beggar), as well as roundabouts the time of the marriage of Siri and the God King (storyteller). This means that time travel within the Cosmere is possible, and what we call worldhopping is in fact time travel, since if Hoid hopped from Scadrial to Nalthis, something else, before Siri's marriage, would have been happening. So either Hoid hops worlds and waits until a significant event occurs, which is pretty unlike Hoid, or, he travels in space, and again, thus time. Sorry, I just don't understand what do you mean by by saying that space travel and time travel are the same thing, could you elaborate? By "space travel" do you mean just moving in a different point of space? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steel he/him Posted October 26, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 26, 2014 (edited) I don't mean that exactly, sorry if I wasn't clear. I mean that time is one of the dimensions of space, so space encompasses time, also, please don't be offended if what I said isn't a hundred percent accurate, since I'm not very well versed in the physics of time travel, just the general theories. Edited October 26, 2014 by Steel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted October 26, 2014 Report Share Posted October 26, 2014 (edited) If time travel backwards were possible wouldn't wit/hoid or anyone in the 17th shard travel back to before the splitting of the shards and stop it from happening - or they could have chosen a better person than Rayse to take up the shard of hatred. I mean Ati who was a good and kind man took ruin - but even ruin initially worked with preservation to make Scadrial. So technically if time travel backwards were possible, they would have replaced Rayse with someone "less eviler" who wouldn't have caused as much chaos as Rayse - since this did not happen (coz if this were possible I am pretty sure wit would have done it by now), I do not think that time travel backwards would be possible. The 17th Shard seems to be about nonintervention, or at least the dragon Wit says sent them after him is. TIme travel is just about as non-interventiony as you can get. As to Hoid, the dragon implies they both worked together to Shatter Adonalsium in the first place. Edited October 26, 2014 by Moogle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ookla the Absent Posted July 21, 2015 Report Share Posted July 21, 2015 Marasi does have a book on hemalurgy though, so there could be more hemalurgy in Shadows of Self or later books, but she probably won't be spiking anyone anytime soon. Citation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightGradient Posted July 21, 2015 Report Share Posted July 21, 2015 So basically, you are saying Hoid=The Doctor? Probably not the best analogy, but they do both intervene quite a bit. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orlion Blight he/him Posted July 21, 2015 Report Share Posted July 21, 2015 Time will move slower/speed up based on how you travel through space, but that does not change the direction of Time's Arrow. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xaladin he/him Posted July 24, 2015 Report Share Posted July 24, 2015 Time will move slower/speed up based on how you travel through space, but that does not change the direction of Time's Arrow. I agree. The following math-rant will be masked in a Spoiler tag. In my ultimate theory of Time. I define Time to be a linear order of events. Try to think of an "event" as a snapshot of the present at some fixed time. A linear order, also known as an ordered space or as a total ordering is a set with a relation < on its elements, having the following properties: 1. If x does not equal y, then x < y or y < x. 2. If x < y then it is false that y < x. 3. < is transitive: x < y and y < z implies x < z Time is a linear order of events, so for any two events that are not the same, one preceded the other. It is impossible to "go back in time" because Time is a total order. If you "go back" you really went forward in the true causal flow (which is Time). For this reason, I seriously hope Brandon does not attempt to do any actual time travel, because he will fail (logically if not popularly) if he does. On the other hand, speeding up time and slowing it down does not violate the properties of the linear order (if x < y then it is false that y < x in particular). In my theory of Time, Time is a metric space for everyone who is not God. This is because there are events outside of our control (when the sun rises, death, etc.), and these provide a reference for a for a metric on time. A metric is a function that takes two arguments from a topological space (in our case, a linear order) and returns a real number. A metric has the following properties: 1. Commutativity: The d(x, y) = d(y, x) the distance from x to y is the same as the distance from y to x. 2. Nonnegativity: If x does not equal y, then d(x, y) > 0. If x = y, they d(x, y) = 0. 3. Triangle inequality: d(x, y) <= d(x, z) + d(z, y) Often interpreted as "the shortest distance between two points is a straight line" It makes sense to think of time as a metric space for us, since events occur that we have no control over. For example, I will eventually get hungry and tired, and there is a limited amount of things I can do before that happens. We usually use the movements of the earth to measure time because that is a reliable measure for determining how much we can do in what intervals of time. For God, of course, no such metric is necessary because there are no events over which He does not have control. He can do arbitrarily many things in any interval of time. Note that by "interval" I mean the set of events after x but before y, for some fixed events x and y (you don't have to define a metric to talk about intervals). In conclusion, you can waive the metrics off of time with magic (see the discussion above about God), but you cannot waive the topological structure of time, even with magic, unless you want your magic system to have contradictions. It is safe to say that time can be sped up or slowed down, because that only messes up the metric, not the topological structure. Allowing time travel to change past events (thus making them both past and future) destroys the topological structure so that there is no longer Time. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shardbearer he/him Posted July 24, 2015 Report Share Posted July 24, 2015 I can't rembember where, maybe the AMA thread, but I'm relatively certain I saw a WoB that time travel backwards is impossible in the Cosmere. A different WoB than the one above referencing Hoid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted July 24, 2015 Report Share Posted July 24, 2015 I can't rembember where, maybe the AMA thread, but I'm relatively certain I saw a WoB that time travel backwards is impossible in the Cosmere. A different WoB than the one above referencing Hoid. Perhaps you were thinking of this one? Question Can Shards travel backwards in time? Brandon Sanderson Anything is possible. (source) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sol Invictus he/him Posted July 27, 2015 Report Share Posted July 27, 2015 "Possible" doesn't mean "plausible", though. It's possible a meteorite could crash into my house and land on my TV, but the odds are so astronomical as to be EXTREMELY unlikely to EVER occur. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts