Hidden Heralds

[Dros]

This being Roshar, there would have to be ten . I think Telcontar's post provides the real answer.

As for what the Shin believe, it seems that they are as rotating fastenered up as anyone else on that world. Apparently, the Stone Shamen deny the existence of Voidbringers. Another group, which Szeth must have been involved with and may have included his grandfather, very much believes in the Voidbringers.

The punishment of being Truthless doesn't just punish Szeth. It is an act of staggering irresponsibility toward the rest of the world. It provided a weapon of staggering power to people not morally equipped to use it well. In effect, it is like the Radiants dumping their Blades and Plate for anyone to pick up.

From the Prologue, p 13:

So, really, that makes the Herald's lie even worse. They're lying about a victory over something that doesn't even exist!

I'm just throwing it out there that it's not necessarily clear that what Szeth carries is a Shardblade or an Honorblade. He's definitely different than any character revealed in the book so far. However, I imagine it is quite irresponsible to just throw someone like Szeth, with his abilities, out into the world with one of the most powerful weapons to exist on Roshar. The Shin don't seem to be like that. We probably won't get many answers until Szeth's POV book, though.

[Djando Je he/him]

I like Droz's idea, but at the same time it seems like to convenient an answer for me to accept outright. Also, I got the impression that everyone assumed that picking up a shardblade would actually change your eye color, but not that it actually would. It doesn't help that the only people who we hear talk about the change in eye color are Darkeye's who have no experience in the matter.

[little wilson she/her]

*Slight* thread necromancy here, but this is an interesting topic, so I don't feel at all bad about it.

Thus far, we've been picking out Heralds who've made appearances, and Brandon also states that there are some have been mentioned but not appeared.

There are two names in particular that I can think of that have been mentioned that have an oddity to them I believe the Herald-mentions would have. One is Restares. I am FASCINATED by him, even though his name has only come up twice. There is definitely something going on there. He's someone of importance--otherwise he would never have been an option for the one behind Gavilar's assassination, and especially not the second name thrown out. And then he's also the mastermind behind the murder of Kaladin's squad, and Amaram's claiming of the Shards. Now, why a Herald would get involved in something like either of these is beyond me. But he's not the only Herald (if he is indeed a Herald, as I think he could be) doing nefarious/semi-nefarious things. Shallash is kind of as well.

The other name that's struck an oddity is the Shin female scholar--Shauka-daughter-Hasweth. Could've been a name this particular Herald went by a few thousand years ago, when she disguised herself as a Shin scholar and wrote a philosophy book. Now, maybe Shauka-daughter-Hasweth was just an oddity among her people when she lived and considering her to be a Herald is preposterous. Maybe she's dead now. It was thousands of years ago. And if she is, then clearly she's not a Herald. And even if she is a Herald, and therefore not dead, she's surely not going by the name of Shauka-daughter-Hasweth. But she's probably still with the Shin. I think it's an idea. And we're severely lacking on guesses on the female Herald side of things.

Obviously, I have nothing to back up either of these. I'm just throwing them out there as having fulfilled Brandon's mention of some Heralds that have been mentioned but not seen. These are both probably going to prove wrong. But maybe not....maybe Restares will be a Herald. Or maybe a Herald with the Shin will reveal herself, and we'll know she's been with the Shin for a very long time. Who knows....Just a couple ideas.

Edited December 29, 2012 by little wilson

[Cheese Ninja he/him]

I think Restares is an identity Taravangian uses to avoid placing suspicion on himself. All we know from the Amaram exchange is that Amaram follows his advice and that Restares opposes the Ghostbloods.

What about Thaidakar, (presumed leader of the Ghostbloods) do you think he might be one of the Heralds?

Brandon's readings of book two that are online has made me change my mind about whether there is a Herald actively imbedded with the Parshendi. I now think that's unlikely. But I still like the idea of Heraldic influence on the Parshendi.

I still think that there's a Herald gathering up Shardblades and Plate. I think the Herald's own magical nature trumps the eye color changed caused by wielding a Shardblade, so I think that they keep their original eye color either way.

And I don't like Jezrien = Niter based on his beard.

I think a good place to look would be at the Heralds used for each chapter: http://coppermind.net/wiki/The_Way_of_Kings/Headings If neither one of the attributes and if their Order of Knights Radiant doesn't make an appearance, it may be that the Herald theirself shows up in that chapter. (Example: Baxil's interlude has double Shalash.) It does make the categories pretty broad though, so I have no interest in poring over the text looking for needles in haystacks. If a chapter goes on long enough, it will end up featuring every attribute to various degrees. Plus, there's always the possibility that the Herald makes an appearance in addition to their main attributes and Knights Radiants.

But I'm going to go ahead and make a guess anyway. Since Ghostblood heavy chapters have Ishar, Thaidakar is Ishar.

Edited December 30, 2012 by Cheese Ninja

[little wilson she/her]

Oh, I actually didn't even think about Thaidakar. I don't know why, because both times Restares' name comes up, Thaidakar's is right near it. That's a good possibility. However, I don't think Restares is Taravangian. I have nothing to base my belief on, just personal opinion. I think Taravangian prefers to be anonymous (not a secret identity) when he's undercover, like he did with Szeth. Might Restares be one of Taravangian's pawns? I suppose. But I doubt it. I honestly have no idea what to think of Restares. Which is why he fascinates me so.

Regardless, I think Thaidakar is a very good possibility for Ishar. I shall have to start paying attention to the Herald Headings. I'm actually reading the book again (I just finished it, but as I was reading it at work, I ended up starting to read it out-loud to a coworker. We're only about 200 pages in and everything thus far is very fresh in my mind after to read-throughs in less than 3 weeks), so it shouldn't be too hard for me to find the necessary info.

Edited December 30, 2012 by little wilson

[Shrike]

A cheeky comment: Maybe the Heralds placed their blades in the ground in order to change the way that the blades perceived themselves (as owned by the Heralds), which ended the fighting-torture/resurrection cycle the Oathpact kept the Heralds in.

[Lirin's hand]

Anyone see Lirin as a war-weary herald? We have no back story on him except that he's not from hearthstone and that he learned his surgery outside of kharbranth, iirc. There are a couple of things that just seem off.

His statement "you can't save people by fighting", I hear "trust me, I've tried" in my head every time now. I can see thousands of years of torture interspersed repeatedly with brief bursts of murder, mayhem, and destruction leading him to that conclusion

His refusal to take payment, a never-ending atonement for his past actions, along with becoming a healer, arguably the opposite side of war.

His understanding of human nature, both when the villagers come for the diamonds and when he faces down (Roshone?) oh, and how he does end up spending the chips to make (Roshone) think he's winning. This is not the first time around the block for him. As well his taking of the diamond chips, he's not as pure as he seemed to be at first.

I also thought his reaction to both sons going into the army was odd. I can see it being essentially a death sentence but it just didn't feel right. That scene struck me as off and now I can't let it go.

And lastly his speaking of it only taking one to spark a change. A new direction for him to try since war just led to a never ending circle of pain.

Maybe the whole family is seen as odd by the town, not because of Lirin's surgeon job but because there really is something odd about them.

Hesina's back story is also weak but she seems knowledgeable about spren and ward glyphs, although Lirin is dismissive of that type of magic.

I am pretty sure Tien had some basic spren or storm light sensitivities, and Kal seems on his way to full KR status. Good genes?

[Cheese Ninja he/him]

I am pretty sure Tien had some basic spren or storm light sensitivities, and Kal seems on his way to full KR status. Good genes?

Tien was an innocent with an aptitude for craftmanship and liked rocks. I don't see why some people on here thinks that makes him a Stone Shaman or a Surgebinding candidate.

I don't think Lirin was a Herald. He gave no impressions of hidden knowledge or a voluminous hidden past. I think he was just a simple weary surgeon who had seen a lot of people lost to violence or foolishness.

I'm pretty sure that the Hidden Heralds have far greater control over their lives than most of the characters in the series so far.

[Dros]

Tien was an innocent with an aptitude for craftmanship and liked rocks. I don't see why some people on here thinks that makes him a Stone Shaman or a Surgebinding candidate.

I don't think Lirin was a Herald. He gave no impressions of hidden knowledge or a voluminous hidden past. I think he was just a simple weary surgeon who had seen a lot of people lost to violence or foolishness.

I'm pretty sure that the Hidden Heralds have far greater control over their lives than most of the characters in the series so far.

I don't know if that's actually the case, though. The Heralds aren't like the Forsaken from WOT. The Heralds have been around for the 4500 years. Such a long life might really damage a person's psyche rather than give them vasts amounts of wisdom. IIRC Brandon has said they are all dealing with insanity in one way or another. It has been theorized that the beggar in the beginning is a Herald...if that's truly the case, it seems that one Herald at least doesn't have it together. One is supposedly scratching her face off of statues, I'm no psychologist, but that doesn't seem like normal, healthy behavior.

I would think the Heralds will not be the leaders of this world, but just individuals sliding through the lower depths of civilization, just trying to make it through existence.

[Meg]

Idle speculation:

If the Heralds keep their body throughout the years (what I could imagine), then Shalash (sp?) perhaps destroys pictures and so that show her, because she wants to continue to be unknown. Her two helpers, if they realize who she is, will not tell anybody because of being frightened by her.

/idle speculation

[Cheese Ninja he/him]

That might be a part of it, but I think that after 4500 years, pictures of you would not be accurate anyway. I think Shalash's main reason is, like Droz said, because she's a bit crazy at this point. Some other people theorized that she regains power from it, but I don't like that theory. There's no evidence of a mechanism that would make that work. Baxil doesn't have any idea who she is, but I'm not sure about the other helper. I doubt people even suspect that the Heralds are still around.

Droz:

I don't think they are all leaders, but I think that option is open to some of them. Hundreds of lifetimes of experience can be pretty helpful when it comes to getting what you want. Being a little bit crazy isn't really enough to keep people out of positions of leadership, after all. And, if the beggar from the prologue is a Herald (which is an idea that I am fond of), he at least has more control over his life than the main characters of the SA, who all have responsibilities and outside influences forcing their actions and goals. A beggar isn't going to be caught with nowhere to escape in the middle of a battlefield, or poisoned by an assassin, and neither would a shadowly leader of a secret organization find himself in those situations. (Thaidakar) I do think at least a few of them are a bit crazy at this point, plus they probably feel guilty about abandoning Taln and the Oathpact.

Also, since no one else posted it, a rebuttal to my Thaidakar=Ishar comment.

Ishar was used in those chapter headings because the chapters feature Kabsal, an ardent, and Ishar's attributes are pious and guiding. It makes sense to use 'pious' when there is a religious character. And Ishar is used in chapter 23 without any apparent Ghostbloods, unless you think Teft was one. Not much in the way of piousness or guiding in that chapter either. Also, Ishar wasn't used in the flashback chapter that Kaladin killed the Shardbearer (47) or the chapter where we learned that Shardbearer was a Ghostblood. (51)

And here's my counterpoint to my rebuttal of my Thaidakar=Ishar:

Kabsal either wasn't truly an ardent, or at least that wasn't where his main loyalties laid. Also, Ishar wasn't used in any of the other chapters that prominently featured ardents. Ishar wasn't used in 47 and 51 because there were more relevant Herald pictures to use. I'm not sure about chapter 23, maybe it's because Rock is a bit pious in regards to Syl, or that Kaladin was trying to guide Bridge 4, but in that case, I don't know why Jezrien wouldn't be used for "leading". But chapter 48 "Strawberry" had double Ishar, and that was all about a Ghostblood assassination attempt on Jasnah. Chapter 74 "Ghostblood" was only 1 or 2 pages long, and had Ishar/Palah, Palah makes sense because it involves the researching of the Voidbringers (learning), so why Ishar? Because Ishar is associated with the Ghostbloods, and this is also the chapter that reveals Kabsal's and Shallan's father membership in the Ghostbloods. And so, I stand by my original supposition, this time with a bit more evidence, Thaidakar is Ishar.

[Cayden]

I don't know if that's actually the case, though. The Heralds aren't like the Forsaken from WOT. The Heralds have been around for the 4500 years. Such a long life might really damage a person's psyche rather than give them vasts amounts of wisdom. IIRC Brandon has said they are all dealing with insanity in one way or another. It has been theorized that the beggar in the beginning is a Herald...if that's truly the case, it seems that one Herald at least doesn't have it together. One is supposedly scratching her face off of statues, I'm no psychologist, but that doesn't seem like normal, healthy behavior.

I would think the Heralds will not be the leaders of this world, but just individuals sliding through the lower depths of civilization, just trying to make it through existence.

They'd been basically sent to hell 100 times, they were probably partially insane long before they broke the Oathpact, and add Post-traumatic Stress Disorder to survivors guilt. They have got to be seriously messed up. They left one of their friends to be tortured for what has been the better part of five millennia. Thats a lot of guilt, not to mention living in a world where they are revered as something close to gods.

They failed in a big way, they probably know Tanavast is dead and they might blame themselves for that because it is quite likely that by breaking the Oathpact they weakened Honor enough for Odium to win. I.e Honor's champions threw in the towel.

Definitely agree with you that they will be nomads or the most unlikely people, because if they wanted power then they could just retake their true identities. I think they would do their utter most to forget who and what they were otherwise they would feel the shame of their actions. They were after all the shining beacons of Honor and they failed, they have seen how the world has changed for the worst and that has to effect them.

[Dros]

They'd been basically sent to hell 100 times, they were probably partially insane long before they broke the Oathpact, and add Post-traumatic Stress Disorder to survivors guilt. They have got to be seriously messed up. They left one of their friends to be tortured for what has been the better part of five millennia. Thats a lot of guilt, not to mention living in a world where they are revered as something close to gods.

They failed in a big way, they probably know Tanavast is dead and they might blame themselves for that because it is quite likely that by breaking the Oathpact they weakened Honor enough for Odium to win. I.e Honor's champions threw in the towel.

Definitely agree with you that they will be nomads or the most unlikely people, because if they wanted power then they could just retake their true identities. I think they would do their utter most to forget who and what they were otherwise they would feel the shame of their actions. They were after all the shining beacons of Honor and they failed, they have seen how the world has changed for the worst and that has to effect them.

Very good points. And just to add a little to that. They might not be sure that if they die they won't be sent back to whatever hell they had been sent to before. If they had really been broken, I would bet most of them would try to find a way to avoid being killed, assassinated, etc. Best way to do that would probably be to stay out of sight, out of mind. Little human contact as possible. Stay away from any situation that might get you killed.

But if they did feel so much remorse that they felt they had to do something, I imagine Cheese Ninja would probably be correct. Operate from secret or as a beggar or something similar, still trying to keep your head down.

Edited January 14, 2013 by Droz

[Cheese Ninja he/him]

I know I said earlier that I didn't think any graphical representations would be at all accurate after 4500 years, and I also said that basing a theory on a beard was stupid. But if you look at Ishar/Ishi's picture in the chapter headings or on the inside covers, he's got a really long beard.

A man with a long grey and black beard slumped in the doorway, smiling foolishly—though whether from wine or a weak mind, Szeth could not tell.

“Have you seen me?” the man asked with slurred speech. He laughed, then began to speak in gibberish, reaching for a wineskin.

If he does turn out to be both Ishar and Thaidakar, I'm going to laugh at myself so, so very much.

[little wilson she/her]

If he does turn out to be both Ishar and Thaidakar, I'm going to laugh at myself so, so very much.

If he's both the beggar and Thaidakar, I don't see why he would be at the feast. If Ishar is Thaidakar using the beggar as a disguise to get into the feast, that would make a little more sense, but only a little bit. There's still the question of why. He's gotta have other people he could send in there, rather than putting himself at so much risk. There's really only two possibilities I can think of for why he would be there. One, he had an assassination plot in the works, but was beaten to the punch by the Parshendi. Or two, he knew about the Parshendi's assassination plot somehow, and wanted to be there when it happened. But I don't like either of those reasons, based on what little we know about Thaidakar. Ishar's either the beggar or Thaidakar (or possibly neither, but I really think he's one of those two, and I'm leaning more toward Thaidakar), but he's not both.

[Takeshi]

I thought, on my second read through, that the drunk old man was Hoid in disguise. That he was actually disguised as someone he was looking for and was asking Szeth (and possibly other random people) if he's seen "him". We know Hoid tends to be present during major events, but that he doesn't always know what major event is. He may even have been after the sphere Gavilar had, as he seems to be collecting important artifacts (the moon scepter, the lerasium bead...). Thus he stayed with Elhokar, thinking it was still near the royal family (who would think that Gavilar would give it to his assassin?).

As for Ishar, I'm leaning towards Kadash (chapter 18). My pet theory is that the Heralds are tied to their divine attributes somehow, and a guiding clergyman seems to fit him. He also knows a lot about historical events and Voidbinding.

Voidbinding is a dark and evil thing, and the soul of it was to try to divine the future.

All I can say is this: I know something of what it is to be haunted by the death and destruction of war. I see in your father’s eyes much of what I have felt, but worse. My personal opinion is that the things he sees are likely more a reflection of his past than any mystical experience.

And for Shallash, maybe the art she is destroying are works that are false depictions. "Dishonest art", if you will. And for whatever reason, she is on a mission to delete these fabrications.

[Cheese Ninja he/him]

Except chapter eighteen's heading is double Battar (wise/careful), and if anything a Herald would have seen far worse in their lifetimes than Dalinar has, and not the other way around. There's been a fair bit of battles and deaths even well before the war with the Parshendi, so it's not surprising that a surgeon (Lirin) and a priest (Kadash) have seen the harsh realities of war. (The War of Alethi Unification, of which Dalinar is a veteran himself.) Kadash is also just repeating the Vorinism party line about prophecies and Radiants and such.

The other interesting thing about the bearded beggar being a Herald, is that we already know Shalash was nearby not too long before that happened. She had destroyed her statue and either removed the evidence or it had been cleaned up by the palace staff, but it had yet to be replaced. I think that for the most part the Heralds went their separate ways, but I wouldn't be surprised if sometimes they find reasons to interact with one another. A treaty between the Parshendi and Alethkar might be reason enough, or whatever Dalinar triggered that prompted the Parshendi to send an assassin after him. If those actions had the possibility of leading to another Desolation, then that seems like something the Heralds would take notice of.

For the prologue's heading we had double Jezrien, but that doesn't mean anything since Szeth was using Windunner abilities.

[Euphoria]

Just chucking this out there based on virtually nothing but could the beggar perhaps have been the royal cartographer Isasik Shulin? If he also happens to be the herald Ishar, well there you go. He would not have had to sneak into the feast I imagine, he was simply allowed. I only say this because in chapter 26 there's an almost throwaway line where dalinar is contemplating the maps and mentions him. I just found it almost irrelevant to mention unless there is more meaning to this person.

[Argent he/him]

I wouldn't use the "he is mentioned specifically, therefore he is important" line of reasoning. Shallan's chapters, for example, are full of references to historians, scientists, and philosophers - but they exist for worldbuilding purposes, not because they will all end up being important somehow. Probably.

[baby he/him]

I also disagree with the idea that Szeth is using the Honorblade of a Herald. Firstly, I believe it's mentioned that the blade fit him, which wouldn't be the case if it had been made for Jezrien who I doubt was the same height as any of the Shin. Also I don't think the Honorblades work in the same way as Shardblades do and aside from its length Szeth's seems typical. In fact Szeth's Shardblade is described only as, "shorter then most others" not unnaturally short. Also who knows what kind of affects wielding an Honorblade would have on the person. The Heralds apparently couldn't keep them and break the Oathpact at the same time. Perhaps even holding one would bind the person to the Oathpact but it doesn't appear anything unusual has happened to Szeth because of the Shardblade. Although the name Lifebrother is interesting, I wonder what it refers too.

ayy lmao