Relis hears a voice

[skyeel]

I would first like to apologize if this has been covered before. I am still very new here, but a quick search did not produce any fruit to my query.

We know from reading the book that those who have bonded with a spren can not touch another shardblade without hearing a peircing scream within their minds and most likely quite a bit of pain based upon the tears produced by Renarin with prolonged contact with his blade in the dueling arena. Dalinar hears it upon stating his first two Ideals with the Stormfather and Kaladin hears it upon pulling of the Lastclap in the dualing arena when coming to Renarin's aid. But then we have this curious event when Kaladin pulls off this feat.

Quote:

Relis dropped the Blade as if bitten. He backed away, raising his hands to his head. “What is it? What is it! No, I didn’t kill you!”

I believe it has already been reasonably assumed that those possesing the Nahel Bond with a spren hear echos of the spren who have unfortunately had thier sentience ripped from them in the form of the scream (kind of obvious of course). Why then does it feel like Relis is responding to a direct question from the Shardblade, awoken by Kaladin's touch? Is he hearing speech and possibly forming a bond with a long lost spren where others hear only the scream?

Is it possible that Relis may be the only person capable of returning this particular spren to sentience? A chance that he will now never have as a result of the forfeiture of the Blade upon the conclusion of the bout and subsequent possession by Adolin? Any thoughts are welcome.

[Green Hoodie Mistborn he/him]

Can't find it right now, but I'm pretty sure there is a WoB that mentions it is because of him and Kaladin both touching the blade at the same time. 

 

it is interesting that no other time does any character mention the concept of intelligible language in the scream of the Blades. Possibly Relis is able to make it out as it's being filtered through Kaladin and his bond

 

I don't' think that Relis has potential to revive his blade though, at least not from the characterization that we've seen of him in the SA to date. 

 

The revival of a blade has come up in a few topics, most recently related to Adolin here Again, I can find the relevant WoB right now, but we know that

 

the only way I see to accomplish third, which Brandon said was necessary to 

revive those "dead" spren, is to spend a lot of time with the blade, talking to it, giving it back some knowledge of the world, and I just don't see Relis doing that. 

Edited October 13, 2014 by Green Hoodie Mistborn

[Topomouse he/him]

This is how I interpreted the whole thing:

We now that "common" Shardblades are dead sprens, when someone bonds them can summon them by synchronizing their heartbeat with that of the spren and giving it back a semblance of life.

Given what we have seen I also assumed that contact with a Radiant gets a bit of life back in the spren, enough to make it feel again the pain of its "death".

That time with Relis we had the superposition of these two conditions, which resulted in the one who bonded the blade (Relis) somehow re-living the death of the spren, a monent when the spren likely asked why he was been killled.

 

Just my two cents.

[Guest]

Relis hears the blade screaming because, for a few seconds, he touched his blade at the same time as Kaladin. It appears touching a dead blade at the same time as a Radiant enables the non-Radiant to hear the scream. Relis panicked and ran away. He is the only non proto-radiant we know of that ever hears those screams. This has been confirmed by WoB.

 

As for reviving a dead blade, it is supposed to be very hard, but not impossible According to Brandon, you need to give back to the spren what they lost, a conscience. We have speculated long and hard on this specific subject as the "Adolin will revive his blade" theory is a very popular one. If this ploy is ever use, it will most likely be carried by Adolin (and not Relis who has been portrait as a pompous honorless scumbag) who already has a deeper connection to his blade as he is seen talking to it with a great deal of respect, confiding in it even, acknowledging he does not own it and refusing to give it a name as he feels he does not know the right one. Many of us have interpreted these as signs Adolin may be bonding deeper then most shardbearers with his blade. There are a few other clues such as Adolin feeling his blade is alive, somehow, him trying to be one with the blade as Zahel taught him to or how he thinks his blade feels like an extension of the soul. We could also add to the lot Adolin's tendency to invest himself into inanimate objects such as his mother's locket. Basically, it is one good theory. You can look on threads where we discussed it. There's been a few. Adolin and his blade, Adolin and Sadeas, Adolin and Radiants are subjects that keep popping back every few weeks.

 

As for the screams themselves, it seems the spren gets on recalling their death each they are summoned... Sad. Poor things.

[AerionBFII he/him]

I think Relis has potential to be a good guy, if i recall he looks at Kal with respect during the fight and his father shipped him back to Kholinar so maybe they will cross paths again while Kal is out venturing the world.

 

It seems to me when Kaladin caught the blade he acted as a conduit allowing Relis to hear what Kal heard. The scream of the spren. Whether the Spren screamed in pain at being used to kill or fear of a Radiant i don't know or i think since Relis seems a salvageable character to me maybe Kaladins interference awakened something in Relis that makes him a possible KR in the future. 

 

Either way i think these two will cross paths in Kholinar and Relis will make his choice, poor Kal he needs to make more friends.

The thing im hoping for is Jasnah and Kal to cross paths and they have no idea who each other are...mwahahaha

[skyeel]

Thanks for your thoughts on this. Perhaps it was just Brandons way of showing that the Spren isn't fully dead, but I can't help but think it is important for Relis specifically. More than any other person. 

 

He is angry at Adolin, but who wouldn't be if that was your relative Adolin made a spectacle out of. Otherwise he isn't really shown as a bad person, and if Seth can become a Radiant with all the blood on his hands then why not Relis.

 

I think the event also bring up another important question. Why was specifically heard. My assumption is that he heard a question voiced to him as the wielder. In that case knowledge of the exact question phrasing could provide an interesting view on what we know of the Recreance.

[Guest]

 

Thanks for your thoughts on this. Perhaps it was just Brandons way of showing that the Spren isn't fully dead, but I can't help but think it is important for Relis specifically. More than any other person. 

 

He is angry at Adolin, but who wouldn't be if that was your relative Adolin made a spectacle out of. Otherwise he isn't really shown as a bad person, and if Seth can become a Radiant with all the blood on his hands then why not Relis.

 

Relis was an arrogant show-off who was to scared to take on Adolin one on one. He ended up agreeing to a full disadvantage duel knowing full well Adolin had a 2 against 1 duel in mind. He showed up with three helps and had the clear intention of either killing or crippling Adolin. Adolin was clearly bested (who wouldn't when fighting against 4 opponents) and Relis was not content to let him give up. Taking up all the Kohlin's house shards was not sufficient: he had to punish Adolin by crippling him. Worst, he threatened to injure helpless Renarin if Adolin did not agree to be beaten down to near death. This is disgusting and honorless.

 

Being angry at Adolin was futile. Relit agreed to the duel and Adolin won by following the rules. Relis was angry Adolin turned out being as skilled as promised. It was pure jealousy.

 

I do not think Relis is Radiant material and him hearing the screaming is tied to Kaladin and not any inclination on his part. We do have a WoB that explains quite well what happens. Szeth did murder people, but he did so while following the law of his country. Relis tried to beat down Adolin in a complete unfair fight just out of spite. I seriously doubt we are going to hear about him again.

Edited October 15, 2014 by maxal

[Guest]

Found the WoB about Relis and Kaladin both touching the blade.

 

Q:  Why did the Shard-bearer when they were dueling with Adolin and Renarin, why does the Shard-bearer freak out when Kaladin grabs the sword?
A:  Because when Kaladin was there and they were touching it, they actually heard the spren that was inside of it.  It was the sword's spren that Kaladin was touching it.  When the Knight Radiant touches it, you can see when other Knight Radiant pick up the swords, they can hear the screaming.

 

Relis hears the scream because he is bonded to a dead blade that happens to be touched by a Radiant as the same time as he.

[Oudeis he/him]

One minor, almost-ancillary point to bring up... remember, "Knight Radiant" doesn't necessarily mean "good person." Relis is a total jerk, but that doesn't mean he won't form a Nahel bond and become a Surgebinder, and it also in no way precludes him from becoming a Knight Radiant, as long as it's an Order which doesn't include the "I won't be a jerk" Ideal. There are a few virtues even Relis exhibits, even if they're mostly subsumed in terrible ways. Clever. Proud. Works well in a team.

[Guest]

One minor, almost-ancillary point to bring up... remember, "Knight Radiant" doesn't necessarily mean "good person." Relis is a total jerk, but that doesn't mean he won't form a Nahel bond and become a Surgebinder, and it also in no way precludes him from becoming a Knight Radiant, as long as it's an Order which doesn't include the "I won't be a jerk" Ideal. There are a few virtues even Relis exhibits, even if they're mostly subsumed in terrible ways. Clever. Proud. Works well in a team.

 

We have no clue Relis is displaying any intelligence at all. Adolin made a mistake: in his hurry to find a way to duel Sadeas, he agreed to terms that unfavored him. The ploy to use 4 shardbearers against him must have been disgusted between Rioin and Ruthar. Relis was just the tool used to bring down house Kohlin because let's be frank: this is what this duel was about.

 

He didn't work well in his team... If the team had worked well, they would have won, but they lose and not just because of Kal's help: they lose because they did not use appropriate tactics. Each were too proud and wanted to be THE one to bring down the fatal blow.

 

That being said, there is a major difference between Relis and any other proto-radiant: Relis acted selfishly. All proto-radiants had higher motives to justify any bad actions they may have done. Relis has no excuses except jealousy, selfishness and cruelty. I frankly fail to see any redeeming quality in him.

[Hoid Is Dead]

Isn't it Pattern that made him hear a voice?

 

Nvm. 

Edited October 17, 2014 by Hoid Is Dead

[Guest]

Isn't it Pattern that made him hear a voice?

 

Nvm. 

 

It was a theory a while back, but the WoB confirms it is the combined action of both Kaladin and Relis touching the blade that caused Relis to hear the screaming.

 

This is interesting as it implies that if a Radiant and a non-Radiant shardholder both touches the bonded blade, the non-Radiant will hear the screams. I wonder if this will be used again.

[Hoid Is Dead]

I think It would be useful if it is used in the early books, for distractions in battle.

 

 I wonder if this will be used again.

Uh, maybe a Radiant can communicate with the blade, with the owner, to somehow revive the spren? I remember Syl saying that the oaths are the only one that is broken.

[Guest]

I think It would be useful if it is used in the early books, for distractions in battle.

 

Uh, maybe a Radiant can communicate with the blade, with the owner, to somehow revive the spren? I remember Syl saying that the oaths are the only one that is broken.

 

Yeah I had exactly that in mind when I wrote my last post... It could be a nice ploy to use to have a certain someone finally learning the name of its blade Or it could just be used to render more shardbearers crazy...

 

I do wonder how the revelation about the true nature of shardblades will change the relation Alethki were having with them... Will Dalinar suddenly start hating all blades like Kaladin? Will the shardbearers suddenly feel bad for torturing poor sprens each time they summon them?

[Oudeis he/him]

We have no clue Relis is displaying any intelligence at all. Adolin made a mistake: in his hurry to find a way to duel Sadeas, he agreed to terms that unfavored him. The ploy to use 4 shardbearers against him must have been disgusted between Rioin and Ruthar. Relis was just the tool used to bring down house Kohlin because let's be frank: this is what this duel was about.

 

He didn't work well in his team... If the team had worked well, they would have won, but they lose and not just because of Kal's help: they lose because they did not use appropriate tactics. Each were too proud and wanted to be THE one to bring down the fatal blow.

 

That being said, there is a major difference between Relis and any other proto-radiant: Relis acted selfishly. All proto-radiants had higher motives to justify any bad actions they may have done. Relis has no excuses except jealousy, selfishness and cruelty. I frankly fail to see any redeeming quality in him.

 

I believe you are missing my point... Radiants don't have to be nice people. They can be selfish and cruel. There's no Ideal I've heard yet which says, "I won't be a selfish jerk." Shallan is a liar, a spy, a thief, a murderer, marrying a man for political and financial gain from whom she is keeping a number of critical secrets. Sure, she'd like to safe the world, but that's hardly selfless. I mean, she's part of the world, right? "The end of the world" isn't exactly something that's only happening to the other guy. Assuming she'd like to continue living in "the world," saving the world is, if not selfish, at least not exactly selfless.

 

My point is simply this. Maybe Relis is a jerk. Maybe he's selfish and mean and vindictive. Maybe he only cares about his own family's glory, and maybe he's willing to sacrifice others to attain it. But we have very little in the way of proof that any of this forbids you from being a Radiant, or at least a Surgebinder. Nohadon comments in Dalinar's flashback that Surgebinders were on the bad side of a conflict. "It's too bad not all spren are as choosy as Honorspren." Based on the fact that we've seen two Radiants who are deep down decent blokes, yet have each done things which were at best questionable, and we've briefly seen a bit of two others besides, it's difficult to make the case that it's impossible for a Radiant to be a jerk. Remember, you need a damaged soul even to become a Surgebinder. Perhaps Relis is deep-down a decent person, but whatever trauma he's endured, much like how Shallan has a nervous breakdown for years any time she tries to remember a certain night, causes him to react in terrible ways. Seeing how he acts in a single instance is hardly enough to say, "this man has no redeeming qualities, and there is no justification for what he did." Perhaps he was bluffing. Adolin did, after all, challenge him to a duel. It's not like he picked some hapless orphan off the street to torment, he attacked a well-trained soldier and one of the best duelists there's ever been. His threats against Renarin could have been mere posturing; if Adolin had called him on it, maybe we'd know that he actually would never hurt the poor boy.

 

I don't actually believe that Relis is a Surgebinder. I think the balance of probability lies in the far simpler explanation, that Kaladin's touch made the Blade speak to anyone who was holding it. That said, it's not an impossible scenario.

[Aleksiel]

I believe you are missing my point... Radiants don't have to be nice people. They can be selfish and cruel. There's no Ideal I've heard yet which says, "I won't be a selfish jerk." Shallan is a liar, a spy, a thief, a murderer, marrying a man for political and financial gain from whom she is keeping a number of critical secrets. Sure, she'd like to safe the world, but that's hardly selfless. I mean, she's part of the world, right? "The end of the world" isn't exactly something that's only happening to the other guy. Assuming she'd like to continue living in "the world," saving the world is, if not selfish, at least not exactly selfless.

 

My point is simply this. Maybe Relis is a jerk. Maybe he's selfish and mean and vindictive. Maybe he only cares about his own family's glory, and maybe he's willing to sacrifice others to attain it. But we have very little in the way of proof that any of this forbids you from being a Radiant, or at least a Surgebinder. Nohadon comments in Dalinar's flashback that Surgebinders were on the bad side of a conflict. "It's too bad not all spren are as choosy as Honorspren." Based on the fact that we've seen two Radiants who are deep down decent blokes, yet have each done things which were at best questionable, and we've briefly seen a bit of two others besides, it's difficult to make the case that it's impossible for a Radiant to be a jerk. Remember, you need a damaged soul even to become a Surgebinder. Perhaps Relis is deep-down a decent person, but whatever trauma he's endured, much like how Shallan has a nervous breakdown for years any time she tries to remember a certain night, causes him to react in terrible ways. Seeing how he acts in a single instance is hardly enough to say, "this man has no redeeming qualities, and there is no justification for what he did." Perhaps he was bluffing. Adolin did, after all, challenge him to a duel. It's not like he picked some hapless orphan off the street to torment, he attacked a well-trained soldier and one of the best duelists there's ever been. His threats against Renarin could have been mere posturing; if Adolin had called him on it, maybe we'd know that he actually would never hurt the poor boy.

 

I don't actually believe that Relis is a Surgebinder. I think the balance of probability lies in the far simpler explanation, that Kaladin's touch made the Blade speak to anyone who was holding it. That said, it's not an impossible scenario.

 

I do believe 'journey before destination' implies one won't be a selfish jerk, gaining things while purposely hurting others.

 

Merely taking advantage of Adolin's less than perfect challenge seems like something some Radiants would do, however not letting Adolin forfeit and threatening Renarin is indeed a solid point against Relis being anywhere near Radiant material. While I agree with you not all Radiants were or will be the same kind of good selfless individuals, what Relis and his friends did in the arena definitely doesn't fit any Orders criteria so far as I'm concerned. 

Edited October 17, 2014 by Aleksiel

[Moogle]

I do believe 'journey before destination' implies one won't be a selfish jerk, gaining things while purposely hurting others.

 

Before WoR, I would have believed this. But Lift shows you can be a thief no problem and still be a Radiant, which pretty much directly counters your assertion here. Lightweavers, so far as we can tell, could be selfish jerks so long as they're aware they are selfish jerks. Cryptics don't care about your personality, just that you know what it is and can face it.

 

To shamelessly plug an older theory of mine, the first Ideal of the Knights Radiant doesn't seem to bind its members very tightly.

Edited October 18, 2014 by Moogle

[Aleksiel]

Before WoR, I would have believed this. But Lift shows you can be a thief no problem and still be a Radiant, which pretty much directly counters your assertion here. Lightweavers, so far as we can tell, could be selfish jerks so long as they're aware they are selfish jerks. Cryptics don't care about your personality, just that you know what it is and can face it.

 

To shamelessly plug an older theory of mine, the first Ideal of the Knights Radiant doesn't seem to bind its members very tightly.

 

Lift stole from the rich, so she wasn't really harming anyone as these people could live just as well with a little bit less food, thus it's acceptable. If she was stealing from poor people, who struggle to survive, I would have agreed with you. My point is it's fine to be somewhat selfish, to commit some crimes even so long as the Radiant doesn't actively harm any innocent people in the process. What Relis planned to do to Adolin is very different from what Lift was doing.

 

And Lift is a surgebinder, not a Radiant, so that probably helps, too.

Edited October 18, 2014 by Aleksiel

[Moogle]

If someone broke into your house and stole a penny off your dresser, that would be okay and acceptable? It wouldn't make you feel vulnerable and violated?

 

Lift doesn't just steal food. She helped other thieves during her interlude, and they stole a ton of things. She also managed to get a thief into a position leading a nation as Prime under false pretenses (they thought he preformed Regrowth and would be able to handle the Assassin in White). Not the sort of person you want leading you in the middle of a Desolation, and I doubt Gawx or Lift are going to say anything to correct them.

 

Just because Lift wants to rationalize her behavior as not hurting anyone does not suddenly make it fact. Maybe it's not as directly violent as what Relis planned, but Renarin and Adolin were hardly "innocents". They entered the dueling ring as full Shardbearers, as part of a plan to grab power. They knew the consequences.

 

As to Lift being a Surgebinder and not a Radiant, it's hinted rather heavily that she's said the First Ideal at a minimum. I'd put her in Radiant territory, or at least Radiant-in-training territory. If she can become a Radiant, I see no reason why other questionable people couldn't as well. Though, I personally highly doubt Relis will be. I can't name a single virtue he has.

[Aleksiel]

Well, Robin Hood is generally considered the good guy, though what Lift did isn't the same. I'm not arguing her actions were good or generally acceptable. She was in a bad situation - being alone on the streets and forced to take care of herself without anyone giving her an example or support. She chose to deal with this in one of the least harmful ways by robbing rich people. No, it's not ok, I agree. However, she has some redeeming qualities though or at least left me with the impression of being a decent person, who cares deeply about some people, while unfortunately neglecting how her actions affect those she stole from. But at least Lift has some virtues...  

 

Relis on the other hand felt like a complete jerk. He took advantage of Adolin's wording and planned to cripple/kill him. While what we've seen from Jasnah leaves an option for such a thing to be acceptable for a certain order (if it was only that, I wouldn't be speaking against him becoming a Radiant), I find it very unlikely considering how Relis would have also killed Renarin - someone uninvolved in his conflict with Adolin, who wasn't a threat to Relis's plan. Killing or purposely and knowingly harming an innocent person is what I find un-Radiant here combined with Relis's lack of any on-screen virtues. He didn't get much screen time, but he seemed self entitled, arrogant and overall far from a decent person. He could change and become Radiant material, but he isn't there yet. It'll be interesting to see how the defeat and being send back home change him.

Edited October 18, 2014 by Aleksiel

[Moogle]

Renarin was a full Shardbearer who charged on to the field to defend his brother, and kept one Shardbearer attacking Adolin occupied. I can't agree with calling him an innocent.

 

Adolin said himself that they were going to try to cripple him. He knew exactly what he was getting into. Adolin very stupidly messed up on the wording of his challenge, and the judge herself even asked him if he was absolutely certain of his challenge. Adolin saw the four Shardbearers he was going to fight and had a chance to forfeit the duel. He didn't do it, and instead he charged stupidly in, waited until he was (predictably) beaten and on the ground, then thought of surrendering.

 

Adolin insulted Relis' family by not giving an honorable duel to his cousin and threatened said cousin's life when he didn't immediately give up his Shardblade, and so Relis gave a dishonorable duel to Adolin in turn.

 

Relis is not a nice person. He is a prime example of the typical Alethi lighteyes. I see nothing redeeming in him. But I wouldn't exactly blame him for that fight. Most of that was on Adolin and Renarin's adorable but sometimes-stupid heads.

Edited October 18, 2014 by Moogle

[Guest]

Well, Robin Hood is generally considered the good guy, though what Lift did isn't the same. I'm not arguing her actions were good or generally acceptable. She was in a bad situation - being alone on the streets and forced to take care of herself without anyone giving her an example or support. She chose to deal with this in one of the least harmful ways by robbing rich people. No, it's not ok, I agree. However, she has some redeeming qualities though or at least left me with the impression of being a decent person, who cares deeply about some people, while unfortunately neglecting how her actions affect those she stole from. But at least Lift has some virtues...  

 

Relis on the other hand felt like a complete jerk. He took advantage of Adolin's wording and planned to cripple/kill him. While what we've seen from Jasnah leaves an option for such a thing to be acceptable for a certain order (if it was only that, I wouldn't be speaking against him becoming a Radiant), I find it very unlikely considering how Relis would have also killed Renarin - someone uninvolved in his conflict with Adolin, who wasn't a threat to Relis's plan. Killing or purposely and knowingly harming an innocent person is what I find un-Radiant here combined with Relis's lack of any on-screen virtues. He didn't get much screen time, but he seemed self entitled, arrogant and overall far from a decent person. He could change and become Radiant material, but he isn't there yet. It'll be interesting to see how the defeat and being send back home change him.

 

I completely agree with you.

 

Yes, Lift is a thief, but what other means does she have to care for herself but thievery? She has not had the chance to be born into a loving and wealthy family. What's a 13 years old kid supposed to do else then choosing for the lesser evil? Lift has proven herself to be a caring selfless person and chances are she would not have resolved to thievery had she been given better asset in life.

 

Relis, Relis is a scumbag. We have seen nothing of him remotely positive. The simple fact he wanted to either kill or crippled Adolin as opposed to just beat him in a fair duel speaks at lengths on his personality.

 

 

Renarin was a full Shardbearer who charged on to the field to defend his brother, and kept one Shardbearer attacking Adolin occupied. I can't agree with calling him an innocent.

 

Renarin is a sickly slightly crippled boy who has not have any decent warrior training. He could hardly lift his shardblade to fend for himself. Picking up a fight against Renarin is like picking up a fight against a 10 years old. Sure, it is admirable he stuck up for his brother this way, but coaxing Adolin into a fight to death to ensure his brother's safety was pure evil.

 

 

Adolin said himself that they were going to try to cripple him. He knew exactly what he was getting into. Adolin very stupidly messed up on the wording of his challenge, and the judge herself even asked him if he was absolutely certain of his challenge. Adolin saw the four Shardbearers he was going to fight and had a chance to forfeit the duel. He didn't do it, and instead he charged stupidly in, waited until he was (predictably) beaten and on the ground, then thought of surrendering.

 

Actually no. Adolin knew they would try very hard to injure him and to beat him down senseless as the terms of the duel allowed it. However, he did not knew they would be four. He was supposed to fight a 2 against 1 duel, a fight he had a reasonable chance of winning. He knew there were risks, but he was willing to accept them.

 

It is true Adolin could have surrendered upon seeing the four shardbearers, but he would have given up ALL of his family's shards without a fight. Even Dalinar was reluctant to have Adolin forfeit. So yeah, he went for it and nearly pulled through until he got hit. He panicked and then he tried to surrendered. Let's not forget Adolin did not know the judge has been bought neither did he knew his opponents would not let him give it up.

 

 

Adolin insulted Relis' family by not giving an honorable duel to his cousin and threatened said cousin's life when he didn't immediately give up his Shardblade, and so Relis gave a dishonorable duel to Adolin in turn.

 

How did Adolin insulted Relis's family? By beating his cousin? Adolin did not break any rules, he showcased his true skill and that is what angered Relis. Let's not forget ALL the other duelists do not believe Adolin is any good. They ALL think it is empty boost. Let's not forget Adolin have not fought any important duels (he fought boring duels for honors with no stakes) for 6 years, which is pretty much his entire dueling career. In fact, it is quite probable the only important joust he's been in is the one where he won his shardblade which must have been memorable. 16 years old kid wins himself a shardblade in a very rare duel for shards? No doubt most of his reputation came from that duel, but it was years ago, so everyone thinks he has lost his edge.

 

When Adolin ended up soundly beating Relit, he proved his reputation is deserved and this is what angered Relis. Adolin was not supposed to win. He was not supposed to have what it takes. So he got angry and when he saw a chance to get back at him, he did it, in the worst possible way, out of spite and jealousy.

 

 

Relis is not a nice person. He is a prime example of the typical Alethi lighteyes. I see nothing redeeming in him. But I wouldn't exactly blame him for that fight. Most of that was on Adolin and Renarin's adorable but sometimes-stupid heads.

 

Renarin is not to blame for the fight! Adolin, yes. He acted impulsively and rather stupidly on this one. He got over-exited and neglected to settle firm rules for his duel. Classic Adolin.

[Moogle]

Renarin is a sickly slightly crippled boy who has not have any decent warrior training. He could hardly lift his shardblade to fend for himself. Picking up a fight against Renarin is like picking up a fight against a 10 years old. Sure, it is admirable he stuck up for his brother this way, but coaxing Adolin into a fight to death to ensure his brother's safety was pure evil.

 

They didn't pick a fight with Renarin, Renarin chose a fight with them. He was holding a Blade capable of cutting through stone as if it were water, and encased in incredibly strong armor. Most ten year olds don't have weapons that powerful, and comparing Renarin to a ten year old child is more than a little insulting to him.

 

Relis using Renarin as a hostage against Adolin is certainly despicable, but it's not like they kidnapped him. If Renarin hadn't been having a "fit", he'd have been attacking them with a sword.

 

Actually no. Adolin knew they would try very hard to injure him and to beat him down senseless as the terms of the duel allowed it. However, he did not knew they would be four. He was supposed to fight a 2 against 1 duel, a fight he had a reasonable chance of winning. He knew there were risks, but he was willing to accept them.

 

It is true Adolin could have surrendered upon seeing the four shardbearers, but he would have given up ALL of his family's shards without a fight. Even Dalinar was reluctant to have Adolin forfeit. So yeah, he went for it and nearly pulled through until he got hit. He panicked and then he tried to surrendered. Let's not forget Adolin did not know the judge has been bought neither did he knew his opponents would not let him give it up.

 

Adolin didn't specify he would only fight two opponents. Maybe he thought he had said that, but he hadn't, and the highjudge specifically asks him if he knows what he meant. That one's on him.

 

Adolin should have surrendered. The only reason he did not end up as a cripple was because he had a Surgebinder he had no idea would help him in attendance. To quote Adolin:

“They’re going to try to break you,” Navani said. “That’s why they insisted this be a match until the surrender. They’ll leave you crippled if they can, Adolin.”

“No different from the battlefield,” he said. “Actually , in this case, they will want to leave me alive. I’ll work better as an object lesson with Blade-dead legs than I would as ashes.”

 

He willingly chose to go against four Shardbearers who he knew he was going to lose against and be crippled. He knew they wouldn't let him give up. What he did was foolhardy.

 

As for the judge being bought, that's never proven and only a theory. The judge is quite fair, all things considered, and even asks Adolin to double-check the wording of his challenge. Adolin could very well have surrendered - he never actually gives the signal:

No. Time to end this. He felt a fool, but better a live fool than a dead one. He turned toward the highjudge to signal his surrender. Surely she could see him now. “Adolin,” Relis said, prowling forward, his Plate leaking from small cracks on his chest. “Now, we wouldn’t want to end this prematurely, would we?”

“What glory do you think will come of such a fight?” Adolin spat back, sword held carefully, ready to give the signal. “You think people will cheer you? For beating a man four against one?”

“This isn’t for honor,” Relis said. “It’s simple punishment.”

 

How did Adolin insulted Relis's family? By beating his cousin? Adolin did not break any rules, he showcased his true skill and that is what angered Relis. Let's not forget ALL the other duelists do not believe Adolin is any good. They ALL think it is empty boost. Let's not forget Adolin have not fought any important duels (he fought boring duels for honors with no stakes) for 6 years, which is pretty much his entire dueling career. In fact, it is quite probable the only important joust he's been in is the one where he won his shardblade which must have been memorable. 16 years old kid wins himself a shardblade in a very rare duel for shards? No doubt most of his reputation came from that duel, but it was years ago, so everyone thinks he has lost his edge.

 

He did not 'showcase' his true skill in any way. He won through underhanded tactics, and showed no skill. They were dueling for nearly priceless items, in a showcase of skill and talent... and Adolin turned what was supposed to a show of skill with Blades into a wrestling match. The entire crowd disliked him for it, and the judge makes it very clear what he did was unacceptable, even if he didn't break any rules. (Much like Sadeas didn't break any laws.)

 

There's also this, which was mostly what I was referring to:

“You’ve lost,” Adolin growled.

“You cheated!” Salinor sputtered.

“How?”

“I don’t know how! It just— It’s not supposed to . . .” He trailed off as Adolin carefully placed a gauntleted hand against his neck. Salinor’s eyes widened. “You wouldn’t.” Fearspren crawled out of the sand around him.

“My prize,” Adolin said, suddenly feeling drained. The Thrill faded from him. Storms, he’d never before felt like this in a duel. Salinor’s Blade appeared in his hand.

 

Adolin threatens Salinor's life and causes him to appear fearful (via fearspren) in front of a crowd of people. Highly questionable act from Adolin, there. This was embarrassing to Salinor, and insults his house by extension. Adolin did not take his win with grace.

 

This, combined with Dalinar enforcing the Codes (which prohibit dueling) and then simultaneously allowing Adolin to duel (just a little bit of hypocrisy, there), is a slap in Relis' face. Adolin later goads Relis, and in general acts like a jerk. Is Relis' response over the top? Perhaps, but it's entirely justified (for Alethi culture, anyways) if you step in Relis' shoes. Adolin is being an impudent upstart who refuses to fight fair.

 

I am not disagreeing with Adolin's choice to hide his own skill and fight dirty (it was clever, as strategies go), but I disagree highly with how he conducted himself after the battle. His decision to later fight 4-on-1 was also something I disagree with.

 

Renarin is not to blame for the fight! Adolin, yes. He acted impulsively and rather stupidly on this one. He got over-exited and neglected to settle firm rules for his duel. Classic Adolin.

 

Renarin is a grown man and entirely responsible for his own actions. He stepped into the dueling ring. He made a mistake, and so did Adolin.

 

In summary: I find Relis to be a typical scummy Alethi, but his actions are entirely justified in his culture and he was not particularly scumbaggy relative to the rest of the Alethi population. Adolin was breaking social norms left and right and acting like a jerk, and I can understand the desire to take him down a peg.

Edited October 18, 2014 by Moogle

[Oudeis he/him]

Youre still assuming that you have to be a good person to be a Radiant. "Journey before destination" does not by default mean you cant be a jerk.

Youre able to justify to yourself why Lifts actions are acceptable. Im sure Relis can justify his own actions to himself. People are excellent at justifying actions. Just because you, personally, excuse one of them and not the other doesnt mean Lift was a good person.

When the rich get robbed, its rarely the rich who starve. What of the poor guards who will be punished for failing to keep out a Surgebinder? The urchins who will be rounded up by the police to make an example?

And Shallan? She's a liar. A manipulator. Killed both her parents, among others. Spied on men to provide information to a secret society exploiting her family.

There are many qualities you need to become a Surgebinder. We have many examples showing that "good person" is not one of the requirements.

[Guest]

 

They didn't pick a fight with Renarin, Renarin chose a fight with them. He was holding a Blade capable of cutting through stone as if it were water, and encased in incredibly strong armor. Most ten year olds don't have weapons that powerful, and comparing Renarin to a ten year old child is more than a little insulting to him.

 

Relis using Renarin as a hostage against Adolin is certainly despicable, but it's not like they kidnapped him. If Renarin hadn't been having a "fit", he'd have been attacking them with a sword.

 

Renarin did not have his plate when he stepped into the ring and he sure was not threat as he could barely fend the blows. Now, we know why he came out this bad, the screaming and all, but from the duelists point-of-vue, Renarin is so much below their skill level fighting with him does not present much of a challenge.

 

It is also clear Renarin stepping into the ring was an impulsive decision made out of love for his older brother who was getting savagely beaten down. I am quite sure all four shardbearers knew this. Threatening to injure Renarin was, as you say, despicable. It also speaks at lengths on the bond between Renarin and Adolin as both of them were willing to put their life at stake for the other.

 

 

 

Adolin didn't specify he would only fight two opponents. Maybe he thought he had said that, but he hadn't, and the highjudge specifically asks him if he knows what he meant. That one's on him.

 

Adolin should have surrendered. The only reason he did not end up as a cripple was because he had a Surgebinder he had no idea would help him in attendance. To quote Adolin:

 

He willingly chose to go against four Shardbearers who he knew he was going to lose against and be crippled. He knew they wouldn't let him give up. What he did was foolhardy.

 

As for the judge being bought, that's never proven and only a theory. The judge is quite fair, all things considered, and even asks Adolin to double-check the wording of his challenge. Adolin could very well have surrendered - he never actually gives the signal:

 

Adolin made a mistake when setting the rules for his duel. He should have specified two, but it was clear he meant two. Relis knew he meant two, but took advantage of his bad wording to bring forward 4. A four against one fight is not a fight anymore, it is a beating down and they wagered Adolin would go for it as surrendering means house Kohlin losing ALL of their shards. The stakes are huge and the pressure on Adolin's shoulder must have been great. He had to give it a try.

 

He did try to surrender. He yelled he yielded, but nobody heard him. Then he tried to signal the judge, but his arm was slammed down. The third time, Relis threatened to injured Renarin if he did surrender.

 

Now is Adolin foolhardy? Yes. Of course. He's an adrenaline junkie. He was completely hype after the fight. Good thing he didn't get to fight Sadeas.

 

Should he have surrendered without a fight? Probably. Would have been safer, but it would have been cowardly to not even try. Besides, he still thought he could surrender at a later time.

 

Both Dalinar and Adolin remarks on the judge being bought. She could have ended the fight the moment she felt it went too far, but it was clear as she looked away she would not do no such thing. When Adolin started losing plate parts, right after Renarin step in, she should have ended it. Dalinar tried to make her end it, but she wouldn't clearly stating: "Your son is not incapacitated" which means, he is not crippled yet.

 

However, she was probably bought after the setting of the duels, so when she ask Adolin if he understood what he got himself into, she had not been bought yet.

 

 

He did not 'showcase' his true skill in any way. He won through underhanded tactics, and showed no skill. They were dueling for nearly priceless items, in a showcase of skill and talent... and Adolin turned what was supposed to a show of skill with Blades into a wrestling match. The entire crowd disliked him for it, and the judge makes it very clear what he did was unacceptable, even if he didn't break any rules. (Much like Sadeas didn't break any laws.)

 

There's also this, which was mostly what I was referring to:

 

Adolin threatens Salinor's life and causes him to appear fearful (via fearspren) in front of a crowd of people. Highly questionable act from Adolin, there. This was embarrassing to Salinor, and insults his house by extension. Adolin did not take his win with grace.

 

This, combined with Dalinar enforcing the Codes (which prohibit dueling) and then simultaneously allowing Adolin to duel (just a little bit of hypocrisy, there), is a slap in Relis' face. Adolin later goads Relis, and in general acts like a jerk. Is Relis' response over the top? Perhaps, but it's entirely justified (for Alethi culture, anyways) if you step in Relis' shoes. Adolin is being an impudent upstart who refuses to fight fair.

 

I am not disagreeing with Adolin's choice to hide his own skill and fight dirty (it was clever, as strategies go), but I disagree highly with how he conducted himself after the battle. His decision to later fight 4-on-1 was also something I disagree with.

 

The fight against Salinor and the fight against Relit were two different fights. Relis was not mad at Adolin beating Salinor, he was mad at him beating his cousin which he did by dragging the duel for over an hour. He did show off during this duel, slowly taking down every single part of Relit's armor until nothing held at all. He proved he was a much, much, much superior fighter and Relis did not like it. He called it humiliation: I call it winning.

 

Adolin used many strategies in his duels. The first one, he fought dirty, to make a point and there was something else going on. He was not himself. He acted badly, but it was of. This is a strange side of Adolin, the get down to it, the pops up at times which contrast so much with the rest of him. I wonder what it was. The second one, he fought a close fight by carefully letting his opponent take hits on him. He made it a close call. The third one, he won by fighting for a very long time, taking his time in taking out all of his opponents plate part.

 

 

 

Renarin is a grown man and entirely responsible for his own actions. He stepped into the dueling ring. He made a mistake, and so did Adolin.

 

In summary: I find Relis to be a typical scummy Alethi, but his actions are entirely justified in his culture and he was not particularly scumbaggy relative to the rest of the Alethi population. Adolin was breaking social norms left and right and acting like a jerk, and I can understand the desire to take him down a peg.

 

I wonder if Renarin really thought it through when he decided to step into this ring....

 

Adolin acting like a jerk? When did he ever acted like a jerk? It is more Relis and his crowd who where jerks, insulting Adolin and Dalinar just to provoke the former into and angry fit.