Honor Corrupting?

[Through The Living Glass She/They]

Okay, so from the Stormlight Archive and this WoB we know that when outside Investiture corrupts a different type of Investiture, it turns red.

Spoiler

Roger

As I understand it, red is a sign of corruption in the cosmere. I just reread The Emperor's Soul, and it mentioned wisps of red smoke when Shai tests the Soulstamps. Does this mean she is corrupting Gaotona's soul?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, that is what that means. Corruption doesn't have to have the negative connotation, right? Basically, it means an outside influence is changing the Spiritual nature of the soul. And, yeah, that's exactly what is happening right there. Now, I would call that a pretty good thing, but... like, all of those things, where she is playing with someone's soul, and changing it, and changing their past, and things like this. This is, by cosmere definition, corrupting someone's soul. That's expressly what it is.

YouTube Livestream 10 (June 18, 2020)

And so corruption is not directly associated with Odium, but corruption of any kind from any Shard, right?

So it would be possible for, say, Honor or Cultivation to corrupt spren from a different Shard, correct?

[Treamayne]

58 minutes ago, Through The Living Glass said:

Okay, so from the Stormlight Archive and this WoB we know that when outside Investiture corrupts a different type of Investiture, it turns red.

  Reveal hidden contents

Roger

As I understand it, red is a sign of corruption in the cosmere. I just reread The Emperor's Soul, and it mentioned wisps of red smoke when Shai tests the Soulstamps. Does this mean she is corrupting Gaotona's soul?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, that is what that means. Corruption doesn't have to have the negative connotation, right? Basically, it means an outside influence is changing the Spiritual nature of the soul. And, yeah, that's exactly what is happening right there. Now, I would call that a pretty good thing, but... like, all of those things, where she is playing with someone's soul, and changing it, and changing their past, and things like this. This is, by cosmere definition, corrupting someone's soul. That's expressly what it is.

YouTube Livestream 10 (June 18, 2020)

And so corruption is not directly associated with Odium, but corruption of any kind from any Shard, right?

Keep in mind that "corrupt" here means changes to the Spirit web from outside Investiture. So, yes, any shard can "corrupt" something from a different shard. Manifestations of Investiture can also cause corruption (that's what's happeneing with Forgery, and why a soulstamp bleeds off with red "smoke" (as mentinoed in the WoB you posted). 

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So it would be possible for, say, Honor or Cultivation to corrupt spren from a different Shard, correct?

The thing about this is, how do you define "spren?" After all, in some ways, a Seon or Skaze can be considered a Spren.

Spoiler

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DoritoJH

We know that there are spren that are partially of Honor, partially of Cultivation, and Odium. Can there be spren made of any combination of Shards?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. Well, you would have to call them... Under that definition if you call a seon a spren, then yes. If you don't call a seon a spren, if you define a spren as, "On Roshar, related to the natural world of Roshar," then no. Theoretically yes, but it wouldn't really work. But it depends on how you define spren. If a Shard were to come and reside on Roshar like the other ones have, then you could theoretically see other new spren appearing out of them.

DoritoJH

Could there be a spren of all 16 Shards combined all at once?

Brandon Sanderson

*hands out RAFO card*

DragonCon 2019 (Aug. 31, 2019)

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Questioner

[Spren] are used to Invest a lot of things, fabrials, they turn into Shardblades. Are we ever going to see something similar with the seons, from Sel?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, they are basically the same thing. They're a little more formalized, a little more structured but they are basically the exact same thing so yes. Some of the things you see spren doing seons are capable of, some things that seons do spren will be capable of.

Shadows of Self release party (Oct. 5, 2015)

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Questioner

What's the relationship between spren and seons?

Brandon Sanderson

They are the same thing from different magics.

Questioner

Okay, exact same thing from different magics?

Brandon Sanderson

"Exact," may be a little too strict, but yeah.

Questioner

So a seon can be transferred to another person, right?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Questioner

Can a spren?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Skyward Houston signing (Nov. 19, 2018)

 

But, if you mean "Spren" in the way Brandon mentions in the WoB (Related to Roshar) - then the only known Spren there that are not already associated with Honor and Cultivation are the OdiumSpren that appear Golden/Yellow (the Red/Violet ones are Honor/Cultivation spren Corrupted by Odium). So, which Spen would you think Cultivation might alter?

PS: Did you ever finish White Sand? Which version were you reading?

[alder24]

9 hours ago, Through The Living Glass said:

Okay, so from the Stormlight Archive and this WoB we know that when outside Investiture corrupts a different type of Investiture, it turns red.

  Reveal hidden contents

Roger

As I understand it, red is a sign of corruption in the cosmere. I just reread The Emperor's Soul, and it mentioned wisps of red smoke when Shai tests the Soulstamps. Does this mean she is corrupting Gaotona's soul?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, that is what that means. Corruption doesn't have to have the negative connotation, right? Basically, it means an outside influence is changing the Spiritual nature of the soul. And, yeah, that's exactly what is happening right there. Now, I would call that a pretty good thing, but... like, all of those things, where she is playing with someone's soul, and changing it, and changing their past, and things like this. This is, by cosmere definition, corrupting someone's soul. That's expressly what it is.

YouTube Livestream 10 (June 18, 2020)

And so corruption is not directly associated with Odium, but corruption of any kind from any Shard, right?

So it would be possible for, say, Honor or Cultivation to corrupt spren from a different Shard, correct?

Yes and yes. Any Shard can corrupt investiture and it could manifest as red. 

There are two examples of non-red corrupted investiture - Nightblood which leaks corrupted investiture as black smoke and Midnight Essence which is also something corrupted but is black. But most times corrupted investiture is just red - no matter what Shard corrupts it. 

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

Anyway, Nightblood is named for the smoke he leaks, and he originally had a different name when he was created. Vasher himself dubbed the sword Nightblood after he had used it to kill the woman he loved. The blackness that leaks out is actually corrupted and consumed Breaths, the ones that Nightblood leeches off anyone who draws him.

Warbreaker Annotations (April 25, 2011)

 

Spoiler

Red the Windrunner (paraphrased)

We have now seen Midnight Essence on Lumar and as part of the Unmade on Roshar, should we assume that all the other Unmade have connections to Odium’s other conquests like maybe Sja-anat and Ambition?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Midnight Essence is more like Lightweaving in that multiple magic systems will reach the same conclusion. When something is done to the magic to corrupt it, it becomes like Midnight Essence. So while there are similarities between the two and they work the same they may not have the same point of origin.

Red the Windrunner (paraphrased)

So there is no meaningful connection between Sja-anat and Ambition?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

You weren’t going to let me off the hook. You are theorizing in a very interesting direction. RAFO!

Tampa Bay Comic Convention 2023 (July 28, 2023)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

So, we know in Mistborn there is this running... you can say, motif about Ruin being associated with the color black and Preservation with the color white, we see a lot of very subtle and a lot of very unsubtle...

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, yes.

Questioner

Is such a motif present in any other books? I think I see it in Stormlight.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, in Stormlight you can see it. So, Ruin is a red-gold... not Ruin, Odium. Odium is a red-gold. Honor is a blue-white and Cultivation is green, obviously. So, those motifs stay, when you... when you see a red or a gold, it's a reddish gold sort of thing, either of those colors, it's going to be Odium.

Questioner

Even when we something we might suspect to be outside influence in other worlds?

Brandon Sanderson

Not necessarily, because red can also mean corrupted Investiture in the Cosmere. So, I would call Odium's real color gold, because you're going to see red when Odium is corrupting other things, so...

Questioner

It's not necessarily on Roshar.

Brandon Sanderson

It's not necessarily Odium. So, you're asking for the invading force on Mistborn, it doesn't necessarily mean Odium because it's red. So red just kind of means corruption. I've talked about that before, so. Not necessarily, not definitive, yeah.

Footnote: When Sanderson said "you're asking about the invading force on Mistborn", the questioner made a guilty "caught red-handed" shrug.
ICon 2019 (Oct. 15, 2019)

 

8 hours ago, hwiles said:

I would argue that Honor would probably have an excruciatingly difficult time committing any act of corruption due to the aspect of the process which requires that one forcibly alter another against their express will by insertion of technically uninvited investiture...I suspect the holder might Splinter themselves if they even tried. Recall: the Heralds were volunteers.

Disagree. Sja-Anat also corrupts spren and she is doing it only when True Spren agree to it, she isn't forcefull. Honor can do the same - if that even would be a problem for Honor. He is about bonds and oaths, he would have a problem with corrupting only if that would violate one of his oaths (well, like any Shard tbf) and for that he would have to make one. I think he is fully capable of corrupting, nothing in his Intent would prevent that. Preservation on the other hand might be a different story.

[+Lewis Nethur He/Him]

1 hour ago, Through The Living Glass said:

Okay, so from the Stormlight Archive and this WoB we know that when outside Investiture corrupts a different type of Investiture, it turns red.

  Hide contents

Roger

As I understand it, red is a sign of corruption in the cosmere. I just reread The Emperor's Soul, and it mentioned wisps of red smoke when Shai tests the Soulstamps. Does this mean she is corrupting Gaotona's soul?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, that is what that means. Corruption doesn't have to have the negative connotation, right? Basically, it means an outside influence is changing the Spiritual nature of the soul. And, yeah, that's exactly what is happening right there. Now, I would call that a pretty good thing, but... like, all of those things, where she is playing with someone's soul, and changing it, and changing their past, and things like this. This is, by cosmere definition, corrupting someone's soul. That's expressly what it is.

YouTube Livestream 10 (June 18, 2020)

And so corruption is not directly associated with Odium, but corruption of any kind from any Shard, right?

So it would be possible for, say, Honor or Cultivation to corrupt spren from a different Shard, correct?

I would argue that Honor would probably have an excruciatingly difficult time committing any act of corruption due to the aspect of the process which requires that one forcibly alter another against their express will by insertion of technically uninvited investiture...I suspect the holder might Splinter themselves if they even tried. Recall: the Heralds were volunteers.

Cultivation though? Yeah, she knows how to corrupt and could probably make herself do it if the benefits were aligned properly for her and the recipient/patient/subject...I still firmly believe it would be fundamentally more difficult for her to corrupt anyone for any reason relative to the effort and focus required by Shards like Odium, who needs no justification prior to an act of corruption to satisfy his intent, and Ruin, who only needs to know that he is causing harm to justify a change to satisfy his Intent...Enter, Super-Inquisitors...

[Treamayne]

20 minutes ago, hwiles said:

due to the aspect of the process which requires that one forcibly alter another against their express will by insertion of technically uninvited investiture

It does not have to be against anybody's will, and the investiture does not have to be unwanted. Shai's "Shaizan" stamp still leaks red smoke, and she does that to herself with her own investiture. It's any change from the normal or any outside adjustment. If, before Tanavast was killed and Honor Splintered, an OdiumSpren asked "I want to be honorable, can you help me?" and he did, it would still be "Red" because it is a change and different, but would not be against Intent to help a Spren become more Honorable. . . 

Edited March 24, 2024 by Treamayne
SPAG/Clarity

[+Lewis Nethur He/Him]

6 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

...

If, before Tanavast was killed and Honor Splintered, an OdiumSpren asked "I want to be honorable, can you help me?" and he did, it would still be "Red" because it is a change and different, but would not be against Intent to help a Spren become more Honorable. . . 

I actually disagree with this. If a spren, who is the embodiment of a concept, volunteered to be changed by Honor, the influx of investiture would still be his normal blue, not a corrupting red. If Honor unmade an Unmade into a ReMade, then...yes, I would think he would burn them with red investiture and also probably kill himself in the process though. Does that make sense? "Unwanted," "unwelcome," and "uninvited," are different things and they don't all need to be present at once to cause extreme nuance and subtle problems.

[Through The Living Glass She/They]

13 hours ago, Treamayne said:

The thing about this is, how do you define "spren?" After all, in some ways, a Seon or Skaze can be considered a Spren.

 

I was just using spren for the sake of example. Since Roshar has three Shards so corruption seems more likely but I know that isn't necessarily true. It seems like a better example than Sel or any other planet with self-aware Splinters, but yeah, any self-aware Splinter will do for this.

13 hours ago, Treamayne said:

But, if you mean "Spren" in the way Brandon mentions in the WoB (Related to Roshar) - then the only known Spren there that are not already associated with Honor and Cultivation are the OdiumSpren that appear Golden/Yellow (the Red/Violet ones are Honor/Cultivation spren Corrupted by Odium). So, which Spen would you think Cultivation might alter?

This was also for example, but I guess Cultivation could corrupt Honorspren or Odiumspren?

13 hours ago, Treamayne said:

PS: Did you ever finish White Sand? Which version were you reading?

I was reading the three Graphic Novels. I read the first two but I haven't finished the last one.

[Treamayne]

17 minutes ago, Through The Living Glass said:

I was reading the three Graphic Novels. I read the first two but I haven't finished the last one.

You should try the omnibus instead (follow the link in that post for more information). 

 

18 minutes ago, Through The Living Glass said:

Since Roshar has three Shards so corruption seems more likely

I think, generally, "corruption" (which should probably just be called change or modify) is actually less of a thing. Because, even though Odium "corrupted" a lot when he first arrived (hoping to not invest in the system, and therefore be able to leave after doing what he came for) -  everything else is already a mix of Honor and Cultivation (even Honorspren are not 100% Honor, nor are CultivationSpren 100% cultivation) - just like we saw no Red indications on Scadrial Era 1 because everything already has some Preservations and some Ruin - so even when they messed with things, it never shoed the Red of "corruption." until Trell (an Outsider) started messing with things. 

Now, single shardworlds, where any change by anybody else would have the tell-tale Red indications. . .