Herald's couples

[Telcontar]

This is something I just noticed. I think it could be important later on in the series.

We all know the chart in the Hardcover with the nice circles with nice symbols and Herald's heads in the corners. I'd like to pull your attention to the lines connecting the big circles. The big circles represent the KR's orders. They probably also represent the Essences and the gemstone associated with the order. Every big circle has at least three lines connecting them to other circles. One for each adjacent circle and one to the circle on the opposite.

The opposing circles each connect a male Herald to a female Herald. I doubt that's a coincidence. But that's not what I think to be important.

In the Ars Arcanum there is that bit of information about Pairing Fabrials. Conjoiners use rubies. Reversers use amethysts. The rubies do the same, the amethysts do the opposite. You may now notice that rubies are connected to the third order, amethysts to the eight. Opposite and connected orders.

I don't think it's a coincidence that the gems which have a very similar but opposite effect are connected on the chart.

So there (probably) is a meaning to the lines connecting a male Herald to a female one. Something like gemstones that are connected in a way.

BTW. wikipedia just told me that sapphires can be yellow, or pink. I'm glad the sapphires BS chose aren't pink.

[Windrunner]

Oooh nice catch, I bet this will become significant. I just love that chart! Interesting thing I just noticed. Jezrien is connected to to his daughter Shallash, so the pairings aren't couples (not that I think that's what you were saying) I wonder what connection is besides male and female, and why certain Heralds fell where. Probably what attributes they best exhibited.

If anyone's wondering why I believe Shallash to be Jezrien's daughter, it's from an epigraph. (This is not something I caught, but someone else)

“A woman sits and scratches out her own eyes. Daughter of kings and winds, the vandal.” -Dated Palahevan, 1173, 73 seconds pre-death. Subject: a beggar of some renown, known for his elegant songs.

The vandal we have seen is almost certainly Shallash, gouging out the eyes of a sculpture of herself. We know that Jezrien is both a king, and leader of the Windrunners, thus it seems that she is his daughter. One interesting thing to note is that, Shallash's order is involved in creativity. The man who has a vision of her is a singer, an artist. I wonder if that makes him more receptive. I wish we had more details on those who have visions. It doesn't happen every time right? Maybe only to those on the path to being a Radiant.

Edited April 11, 2012 by Windrunner

[master]

don't have that chart in my copy. is there anywhere else I can find it?

[Windrunner]

Indeed there is. Here is the image we are talking about, the chart for the the Orders of Knights Radiant and their respective Surges. Do you know how to read the table? Every large circle is an Ideal mixed with an Essence, every smaller one a Surge. The ones attached to the blue symbol in the top right are gravity and pressure, together the three make the Order of Windrunners. There is a near mirror table in the back here which many believe to be the Orders of Voidbinding, although this isn't confirmed it seems likely. If you want to see all the images the link is here. The only ones missing are the Arches that begin the chapters. I imagine with whatever type of book you have, (paperback or e-reader) you should be able to see them fairly well.

[Sweetness]

This image has all the chapter headers on it.

[master]

thanks.

[Odium's_Shard]

Indeed there is. Here is the image we are talking about, the chart for the the Orders of Knights Radiant and their respective Surges. Do you know how to read the table? Every large circle is an Ideal mixed with an Essence, every smaller one a Surge. The ones attached to the blue symbol in the top right are gravity and pressure, together the three make the Order of Windrunners. There is a near mirror table in the back here which many believe to be the Orders of Voidbinding, although this isn't confirmed it seems likely. If you want to see all the images the link is here. The only ones missing are the Arches that begin the chapters. I imagine with whatever type of book you have, (paperback or e-reader) you should be able to see them fairly well.

After constantly comparing the images I have decided that although the second chart looks slightly different, the symbols displayed on it seem to be just stylized or slightly warped variants of those found in the original table, containing similar themes, icons, aspects and pattern types, just in a distorted order, and it seems unlikely that this is associated to Voidbinding.

[Telcontar]

After constantly comparing the images I have decided that although the second chart looks slightly different, the symbols displayed on it seem to be just stylized or slightly warped variants of those found in the original table, containing similar themes, icons, aspects and pattern types, just in a distorted order, and it seems unlikely that this is associated to Voidbinding.

The small circles contain the Surges. They are represented by glyphs. when you compare the small circles from both charts, you see that the glyphs on both charts are the same. Glyphs in-world can be written in any way, it often takes the shape of what it represents. The glyphs on the charts have the same basic lines/dots/curves. they are only arranged in a different way.

That's why I always thought that second chart to be but an artistic representation of the Surgebinding-chart. Like the map of Shadesmar which is a colored in-world-window IIRC. Both have the same frame btw.

[Tulir]

You're right!! Wow, I never noticed that the smaller glyphs have the same lines and dots. Nice eyes!! But that makes me think even more that it describes a different magic system because the symbols are different.

[cezarip]

The small glyphs from one chart convert into ones from the other chart when one picks one half (the right or the left) side of the glyph and mirrors it horizontally.

There is on another explanation possible: those are the Surges having an opposite effect (reverse Surges).

[Kuri Shardweaver]

Just a minor note, flipping back and forth between the two, the back symbols appear far more 'storm like', as if spiraling cloud patterns. While the Ideal circles bear less resemblance than the Surge symbols, there is still some correlation. Perhaps Voidbringing uses the opposing Ideals to Surgebinding?

Edit: also, on the Surgebinding chart...Are those supposed to be Greatshells or Axehounds in the background? Any clue on the significance? Kinda want to assume the woman shown on the back chart may be that witch with the Old Magics....kinda rambling here..

[Windrunner]

I guess the woman could be the Nightwatcher. The problem is, it's referred to as both genders at different points in the book so no one knows if it even is male of female. I'm sticking to the idea that it is all that's left of the Third Roshar Shard who left for the Silence Divine planet. If Odium hasn't arrived yet, our count of 3 is still accurate.

[Dros]

I guess the woman could be the Nightwatcher. The problem is, it's referred to as both genders at different points in the book so no one knows if it even is male of female. I'm sticking to the idea that it is all that's left of the Third Roshar Shard who left for the Silence Divine planet. If Odium hasn't arrived yet, our count of 3 is still accurate.

I haven't heard that one. Is there somewhere I can read about that?

[Telcontar]

Nor have I. Could you give us that information, please? Meaning that Odium is not on Roshar (yet) and there being another Shard that has left

[CabbageHead]

Just looking at those two diagrams again (that Windrunner linked) I noticed something that puzzles me slightly. I'm going to ramble a bit here, so I hope someone understands what I'm on about, and maybe give an explaination for what I'm seeing.

Ignore the smaller symbols denoting the surges, and look just at the ten for the Ideals/Essences. The links between the symbols are shown joining each one to the two adjacent ones, and the one opposite. However, four of them have an additional link, the top left to bottom left, and top right to bottom right. In the Voidbinding diagram, the background is clearly divided into three sections. Do these sections indicate the 3 shards on Roshar, or perhaps the 3 realms?

Anyway, the middle one has two symbols, and the right and left each have four. At first I thought the two middle symbols were in the centre because of the rectangular shape of the overall diagram, but when I noticed that the diagram was divided equally into three, it got me thinking that maybe there are actually 12 symbols there, making 2 circles of 6 with the centre 2 actually each being 2 overlaid on each other (the large elipse encasing them in the voidbinding diagram seems to denote something extra about those 2). That would make it 4 in each of the 3 sections of the diagram, yet still only 10 overall. The links that are shown then, are from each of the symbols to its two adjacents, to its opposite in the larger circle of 10, and to its opposite in the smaller circles of 6 if it is in the same 1/3rd of the diagram.

Now, if I didn't lose you with that, any idea what it means? (particularly the extra 2 denoted relationships that break the overall rotational symmetry that the diagram would have if it was displayed with the 10 symbols equally spaced around a circle)

[Triasmus]

But then why would the top and bottom of the small circles be the only ones that have an opposite in the small circles?

I believe that the patterns make the "eye of the almighty" symbol (or maybe it's just "the eye" symbol) that vorinism uses. (middle two order are the pupil, surges are the iris, rest of the orders are the rest of the eye).

Heeyyy. light goes into the pupil, right? the "voidbinder" sheet has that gem in the center. So, by logical deduction, when Honor was alive he could use gems as extra eyes (that's why they're put into spherical marbles, to remind people that "God" is watching them. At least, that's why in the first place). :D

Edited April 30, 2012 by Lantern13

[Aeshdan]

Based on Brandon's predilection for MTG, I'm going to guess that this functions something like the MTG pentagram (each Essence is similar to the two next to it and exactly opposite from the one accross.

[CabbageHead]

Based on Brandon's predilection for MTG, I'm going to guess that this functions something like the MTG pentagram (each Essence is similar to the two next to it and exactly opposite from the one accross.

Yes I understand that, but what are the other 2 lines about?