What Metal is Kelsier's Spike? A Theory

[Glory Spren]

TL;DR- I think Kelsier is a Spren, in a Nahel bond, and IS his eye spike (summoned as a spike a'la a shardblade). With that in mind, the metal of his spike would be a god metal, either Lerasium or more likely an Alloy of Lerasium and Atium either Harmonium or a different alloy of different percentages of the two.

Let me defend that a bit.

First, most everyone agrees that what Kelsier is/was at the end of SH, a bodyless cognitive shadow, is categorically the same type of being as a spren. We have WoBs that support this and taking it further we have WoBs that state he could enter a Nahel bond as well.

Quote

Blightsong

Could Kelsier theoretically bond with someone on Roshar?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

OdysseyCon 2016 (April 8, 2016)

Quote

WeiryWriter

Can a person who dies but somehow hasn't passed Beyond the Three Realms (a la Kelsier) serve in place of a spren for Radiant purposes?

Brandon Sanderson

This is theoretically possible, but it would require an unusual sequence of events.

WeiryWriter

We know that the Stormfather is a Cognitive Shadow and is also acting as a spren for Dalinar but is he able to do that because the "unusual sequence of events" took place or is there something else going on specific to the nature of the Stormfather?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO.

Carluun

If Kelsier became a "spren" for a Radiant, would he grant Surgebinding or Allomancy?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO.

Worldbuilders AMA (Dec. 3, 2015)

So its not a totally crazy idea.

Next I want to talk about who he might be bonded with. Spook. In SH we see the Connection between Kelsier and Spook. If they solidified this connection and progressed in that connection, I imagine it would be considered a Nahel bond and if it got to a certain strength I don't see why it wouldn't have similar capabilities to a radian bond in the form of summoning. Now this would also imply that Spook is still alive. Enter the Spook is 16 (from tSA) theory. This would give that theory the motivation for why he would be skipping forward in time and keeping himself alive. To keep Kelsier alive until another solution is found to keep him physical.

Overall, I think this theory could explain why Kels body is the way it is along with the problems he's having, I don't think its any more crazy then saying that he's pined to a body using a regular spike in a totally unique way, and I think it plays well with other fan favorite theories such as he has a Kandra body and 16 is Spook. Do I think its true? Na probably not, but I think it sounds cool and makes sense. I'd love to hear thoughts both for and against.

(This is my first post on here, please let me know if I've done anything wrong. Very excited to join this part of the community)

[alder24]

11 hours ago, Glory Spren said:

TL;DR- I think Kelsier is a Spren, in a Nahel bond, and IS his eye spike (summoned as a spike a'la a shardblade). With that in mind, the metal of his spike would be a god metal, either Lerasium or more likely an Alloy of Lerasium and Atium either Harmonium or a different alloy of different percentages of the two.

Let me defend that a bit.

First, most everyone agrees that what Kelsier is/was at the end of SH, a bodyless cognitive shadow, is categorically the same type of being as a spren. We have WoBs that support this and taking it further we have WoBs that state he could enter a Nahel bond as well.

So its not a totally crazy idea.

Next I want to talk about who he might be bonded with. Spook. In SH we see the Connection between Kelsier and Spook. If they solidified this connection and progressed in that connection, I imagine it would be considered a Nahel bond and if it got to a certain strength I don't see why it wouldn't have similar capabilities to a radian bond in the form of summoning. Now this would also imply that Spook is still alive. Enter the Spook is 16 (from tSA) theory. This would give that theory the motivation for why he would be skipping forward in time and keeping himself alive. To keep Kelsier alive until another solution is found to keep him physical.

Overall, I think this theory could explain why Kels body is the way it is along with the problems he's having, I don't think its any more crazy then saying that he's pined to a body using a regular spike in a totally unique way, and I think it plays well with other fan favorite theories such as he has a Kandra body and 16 is Spook. Do I think its true? Na probably not, but I think it sounds cool and makes sense. I'd love to hear thoughts both for and against.

(This is my first post on here, please let me know if I've done anything wrong. Very excited to join this part of the community)

Hello, welcome to the Shard!  

It's a very interesting idea, I haven't seen that one yet. This topic probably should have been posted in the Cosmere Discussion section, to avoid spoilers from SA. Have you read the Stormlight Archive? I assume you have for obvious reasons. Edit: I've asked mods to move it to the Cosmere Discussion section.

However I see a few problems with this idea. First one is that if Kelsier IS the spike (just like Spren manifests as a Shardblade) then why does the spiked person look like Kelsier, behave like Kelsier and even think he is Kelsier? The Nahel Bond doesn't work like that. If you suggest that Kelsier's body is his manifested body with a Shardspike then that doesn't work as well - spren can't manifest two physical bodies, they can't become a Shardblade and be a human figure at the same time (and they can't have a physical human body, a Shardblade is their physical body).

Moreover Bonded Spook (Sixteen) can't be on Roshar, because his Nahel Bond with Kelsier - a highly invested Cognitive Shadow (Kelsier) that can't leave Scadrial, he would prevent Spook from leaving Scadrial as well. That means Sixteen has no bond with Kelsier otherwise he would be stuck on Scadrial with Kelsier. 

OB spoilers WoB:

Spoiler

Questioner

If Hoid were to leave the Rosharan system, would that kill his spren? And would he still be able to use his Radiant powers?

Brandon Sanderson

As currently understood by the mechanics of the cosmere, he would just not be able to leave without breaking the bond to that spren. Breaking that bond wouldn’t necessarily kill the spren, but he would not be able to leave with the spren. You have seen him off-world post-Stormlight Five. So I’ll leave that to you. But he is trying to figure out how that would not necessarily have to be that way.

Dragonsteel 2022 (Nov. 14, 2022)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

Could a Threnody Shade survive on another world?

Brandon Sanderson

Theoretically, yes. But they are highly Invested, and leaving a world where you're highly Invested behind when you have that Investiture is difficult, as Kelsier discovered, and as most spren discover.

Oathbringer Portland signing (Nov. 16, 2017)

 

So while this is an interesting new view on this problem, it can't really work. However Kelsier manifests as a Shardspike and someone using it to Hemalurgically pierce another person, overwhelming their spirit web with Kelsier's spirit might kind of work. But that's not a Nahel Bond, that's advanced Hemalurgy. And from TLM epilogue 4 we know this is a Hemalurgic spike holding "his" body and soul together:

Quote

Hemalurgy had proven ineffective on what he’d become. It held his soul and body together, but no more.

Kelsier's body seems to be a mistwraith who ate Kelsier's bone. Those WoBs stronly strongly this:

Spoiler

rxience (paraphrased)

Would a single spike be sufficient to staple a Cognitive Shadow to a mistwraith?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes, that could happen.

rxience (paraphrased)

Did that happen in the past?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

That's a RAFO, I'm afraid. Who are you thinking about?

rxience (paraphrased)

Kelsier of course!

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Well, he is somehow in the Physical Realm. And he does look like himself, doesn't he?

Berlin signing (May 14, 2019)

 RoW spoilers WoB:

Spoiler

Questioner

With regards to certain experiments, would it be fair to say Ishar and a certain Scadrian have similar goals? 

Brandon Sanderson

*hesitation noises* I don't know that I would say that 100%. The certain Scadrian you reference has been able to achieve the goals that he wants. Let's see if I can circumlocute this: there's a certain set of bones floating around that already has a Connection to this individual, which was useful in achieving what he wanted to do, which is not a luxury that Ishar has. 

JordanCon 2021 (July 17, 2021)

 

But in the end I don't think we have any indication what his spike is made of, what its charge is and how this works, we can only speculate for now. A Shardspike is a great, somewhat possible take on this.

Edited February 29 by alder24

[Chaos]

I've moved this to Cosmere Discussion. When your opening line has non-Mistborn stuff, it's gotta go in there!

[Glory Spren]

2 minutes ago, Chaos said:

I've moved this to Cosmere Discussion. When your opening line has non-Mistborn stuff, it's gotta go in there!

I appreciate it, ya didn't think that all the way through, my fault

[Glory Spren]

7 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Hello, welcome to the Shard!  

It's a very interesting idea, I haven't seen that one yet. This topic probably should have been posted in the Cosmere Discussion section, to avoid spoilers from SA. Have you read the Stormlight Archive? I assume you have for obvious reasons. Edit: I've asked mods to move it to the Cosmere Discussion section.

However I see a few problems with this idea. First one is that if Kelsier IS the spike (just like Spren manifests as a Shardblade) then why does the spiked person look like Kelsier, behave like Kelsier and even think he is Kelsier? The Nahel Bond doesn't work like that. If you suggest that Kelsier's body is his manifested body with a Shardspike then that doesn't work as well - spren can't manifest two physical bodies, they can't become a Shardblade and be a human figure at the same time (and they can't have a physical human body, a Shardblade is their physical body).

Moreover Bonded Spook (Sixteen) can't be on Roshar, because his Nahel Bond with Kelsier - a highly invested Cognitive Shadow (Kelsier) that can't leave Scadrial, he would prevent Spook from leaving Scadrial as well. That means Sixteen has no bond with Kelsier otherwise he would be stuck on Scadrial with Kelsier. 

OB spoilers WoB:

  Reveal hidden contents

Questioner

If Hoid were to leave the Rosharan system, would that kill his spren? And would he still be able to use his Radiant powers?

Brandon Sanderson

As currently understood by the mechanics of the cosmere, he would just not be able to leave without breaking the bond to that spren. Breaking that bond wouldn’t necessarily kill the spren, but he would not be able to leave with the spren. You have seen him off-world post-Stormlight Five. So I’ll leave that to you. But he is trying to figure out how that would not necessarily have to be that way.

Dragonsteel 2022 (Nov. 14, 2022)

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Questioner

Could a Threnody Shade survive on another world?

Brandon Sanderson

Theoretically, yes. But they are highly Invested, and leaving a world where you're highly Invested behind when you have that Investiture is difficult, as Kelsier discovered, and as most spren discover.

Oathbringer Portland signing (Nov. 16, 2017)

 

So while this is an interesting new view on this problem, it can't really work. However Kelsier manifests as a Shardspike and someone using it to Hemalurgically pierce another person, overwhelming their spirit web with Kelsier's spirit might kind of work. But that's not a Nahel Bond, that's advanced Hemalurgy. And from TLM epilogue 4 we know this is a Hemalurgic spike holding "his" body and soul together:

Kelsier's body seems to be a mistwraith who ate Kelsier's bone. Those WoBs stronly strongly this:

  Reveal hidden contents

rxience (paraphrased)

Would a single spike be sufficient to staple a Cognitive Shadow to a mistwraith?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes, that could happen.

rxience (paraphrased)

Did that happen in the past?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

That's a RAFO, I'm afraid. Who are you thinking about?

rxience (paraphrased)

Kelsier of course!

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Well, he is somehow in the Physical Realm. And he does look like himself, doesn't he?

Berlin signing (May 14, 2019)

 RoW spoilers WoB:

  Reveal hidden contents

Questioner

With regards to certain experiments, would it be fair to say Ishar and a certain Scadrian have similar goals? 

Brandon Sanderson

*hesitation noises* I don't know that I would say that 100%. The certain Scadrian you reference has been able to achieve the goals that he wants. Let's see if I can circumlocute this: there's a certain set of bones floating around that already has a Connection to this individual, which was useful in achieving what he wanted to do, which is not a luxury that Ishar has. 

JordanCon 2021 (July 17, 2021)

 

But in the end I don't think we have any indication what his spike is made of, what its charge is and how this works, we can only speculate for now. A Shardspike is a great, somewhat possible take on this.

Those are great notes! To clarify, I do think that Kelsier as a Shardspike is Hemalurgicly spiked into either a mistwraith with his bones or another body that his spirit web altered to look like him. I agree on those points.

That note on interplanetary Nahel bonds not working is a strong point that I didn't think about with the Spook = 16 part of this. Though do we know if all Nahel bonds have that restrictions like the radiant bond does? Seon bonds are a type of Nahel bond and seem to work on different rules so maybe? But ya that is a pretty big hiccup.

[alder24]

Please avoid double posting, it's against forum policy. It's better to edit your previous post - click the 3 dot menu in the top right corner of your post and choose the "edit" option. Here are some other tips for you, courtesy of @Treamayne:

  Hide contents

• At the bottom left of a post you will see a "+" icon, a "Quote" link.
• At the bottom right you will see an heart icon (and possibly different reactions in the future).
• At the top right you will see a hamburger menu (three dots) which shows: Report, Share, and (your posts only) Edit and Hide tools.

Likes/Reactions:

  Hide contents

• The Heart Icon (Like) is how you thank people or "like" a post
  • Likes, Mentions and Quotes should all send an alert to the appropriate person - even when added to an old post through the Edit feature.

Report Tool:

  Hide contents

• Use  the Report tool to report any post (your own or others) to a forum Mod
  • Use this if you do accidentally double-post (sometimes it's the browser or a slow link that causes a double post) - just leave a message that it was an accidental double post and the Mods can fix it. If it was the first post of a new thread that doubled, they usually can merge the threads if they both have answers, so all of the content is retained.
  • For reporting Spam, only report a single post by the user to let the Mods and Admins know - they get messages for each "report" so reporting each Spam post is annoying and unnecessary. If all posts by a "new user" (bot) are all spam - then all of those posts will be deleted when that account is deleted.

Hide Tool:

  Hide contents

• Use the Hide tool to hide your post if you want to remove it after posting (useful for accidental double-posts)
  • Hiding the first post in a Thread will hide the threan as long as ther have been no replies (Needs Testing)

Mentions:

  Hide contents

• You can "Mention" a person by typing "@" and slowly typing their user name (spelling matters). As you spell their name, the interface will show a pop-up with matches - when you match appears, click it to add the Mention
  • Likes, Mentions and Quotes should all send an alert to the appropriate person - even when added to an old post through the Edit feature.

Quote Methods:

  Hide contents

• The "Quote" link is exactly that, when you click it the quote will be added to the reply at the bottom of the thread wherever the cursor is (adding a carraige return if necessary)
  • So, if you have already started to reply before you decide to quote you can then add the quote before or after your text depending on the cursor location when you click "Quote"
• The + icon is multi-quote. As you read a thread, if you want to quote multiple items you can click that for each post you want to quote
  • As you click +, you should see a toaster pop-up on the bottom right of the browser window showing how many quotes you will have
  • They are added in the order you click the + icon, not in the original post order, so you can set the order of quotes for your reply
  • When you are ready to reply, click on the toaster pop-up and it will take you directly to the reply section and add the quotes automatically with one blank line between each for you to add your comment(s)
• Finally, you can also highlight a small section of a post and, when hovering over the highlit portion, click the "Quote Selection" button that pops up.
  • This will also be added to the cursor location, rather than the bottom of the reply.
• Also note that you can move quotes after they have been added to your reply.
  • For example, you add a quote and realize there are no empty lines below it for you to type - so you can hit "enter" before the quote to make an empty line then when you hover over a quote you will see a 4-way arrow at the top-left that you can use to drag the quote up (or down)  and move the quote to before the empty line. . .
  • This is also how you can add quotes to an Edit of your own post. You quote using any of the methods above and the quote will go to the reply section. You then hover over the four-way arrow and use CTRL+C to cut the quote, which you can then paste into your edit window.
• Likes, Mentions and Quotes should all send an alert to the appropriate person - even when added to an old post through the Edit feature.

Editing posts:

  Hide contents

• Use the Edit link to make changes to a completed post or add information to your post if it is the most recent (to avoid double posting)
  • Quote buttons will still send a quote to "Reply" if you have a post open for edit, but it is easy to cut/paste the quote to the Edit box
  • Editing the first post in a thread allows the thread-creator to edit the thread title (important for changing accidental spoilers)
  • Editing allows you to add a reason for the edit (Spelling and grammar (SPAG), formatting, clarification, new information, etc.), but it is not required.
• Likes, Mentions and Quotes should all send an alert to the appropriate person - even when added to an old post through the Edit feature.

Other:

  Hide contents

• Quotes and Spoilers are very similar, but here are the differences:
  • Spoiler tags are default "closed" and are not attributed - they may be opened by clicking the spoiler box title
  • Quotes are default "open" (but may be closed by clicking the Quote Title and are denoted by the basic arrow icon on the left side of the quote title), If the quote was added with one of the methods explained above, it will be attributed - if it was added with the quote icon in the Reply/Edit tools, it will not be attributed.
  • Attributed Quotes will have a curved arrow icon on the right side of the quote title to jump directly to the post from which the quote was taken.

Hope that helps.

 

4 minutes ago, Glory Spren said:

Those are great notes! To clarify, I do think that Kelsier as a Shardspike is Hemalurgicly spiked into either a mistwraith with his bones or another body that his spirit web altered to look like him. I agree on those points.

That can work, but that wouldn't be a Nahel Bond, that would be more like, Yumi spoilers:

Spoiler

Yumi and Nikaro's Connection. They both are strongly connected to each other and because of that they accidentally swap bodies, kind of possessing each other. But because Yumi is a highly invested Cognitive Shadow (just like Kelsier), she overwrites Nikaro's body, making it look like her. This kind of mechanism can work with Kelsier, allowing him to alter the look of the body he is possessing and be in full control of that body. Technically he might not need even his bones or a mistwraith to alter his look.

 

14 minutes ago, Glory Spren said:

That note on interplanetary Nahel bonds not working is a strong point that I didn't think about with the Spook = 16 part of this. Though do we know if all Nahel bonds have that restrictions like the radiant bond does? Seon bonds are a type of Nahel bond and seem to work on different rules so maybe? But ya that is a pretty big hiccup.

It would work in the same way. It's basically a very, very strong Connection with something very heavily invested that can't leave the system. Seons also have troubles leaving Sel, it takes some extra, unknown measures to achieve that (we've seen them on different planets with their "owners"), but this is just as hard for them as it is for spren and Cognitive Shadows. 

Spoiler

Questioner

[Spren] are used to Invest a lot of things, fabrials, they turn into Shardblades. Are we ever going to see something similar with the seons, from Sel?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, they are basically the same thing. They're a little more formalized, a little more structured but they are basically the exact same thing so yes. Some of the things you see spren doing seons are capable of, some things that seons do spren will be capable of.

Shadows of Self release party (Oct. 5, 2015)

 

Spoiler

Thadamin

How important are bonds like the Nahel Bond and a seon bond in the Cosmere?

Brandon Sanderson

I'd say very important.

Thadamin

Is this kind of bond relatively common or is what seons, spren, and Nightblood do little more rare among Splinters. I'm specifically talking about the act of making bonds not a giving of magic powers really, that appearing to be function of Roshar. Also regarding your post about Stormlight 3 I am personally okay with 2000 pages if need be so make the chapters as long as you want.:)

Brandon Sanderson

The bonding is basically the same mechanic, regardless of the world, just with different flavoring. Roshar isn't the only place where the bond gives powers; it's a matter of what's stuffed into the soul, and how.

/r/books AMA 2015 (June 19, 2015)

 

Spoiler

Questioner 1

When you were talking about spren being bound to the Cognitive Realm of their planet. Are seons similarly bound? Especially with-- Because the--

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Questioner 2

Could you also pull them off, with the knowing how?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, but you’d have to get through the Cognitive Realm, on Sel. But yeah-- Yes, that is possible.

Arcanum Unbounded Chicago signing (Dec. 6, 2016)

 

[Glory Spren]

14 minutes ago, alder24 said:

That can work, but that wouldn't be a Nahel Bond, that would be more like, Yumi spoilers:

I only bring the Nahel Bond up as a mechanic to allow Kelsier to manifest as a Shardspike, the rest of it regarding his body and connections to it would be some combination of Hemalurgy and what you bring up with Yumi.

If he can manifest someway without a bond that would be just as well for me.

[alder24]

37 minutes ago, Glory Spren said:

I only bring the Nahel Bond up as a mechanic to allow Kelsier to manifest as a Shardspike, the rest of it regarding his body and connections to it would be some combination of Hemalurgy and what you bring up with Yumi.

If he can manifest someway without a bond that would be just as well for me.

You don't really need the Nahel Bond for that. The Sibling is physically manifested as the entire Urithiru without the Nahel Bond, the same goes for Oathgates, which are physical manifestations of two Oathgate sprens, or Soulcasters or other ancient Fabrials. The Bond isn't needed. Fabrials were made by convincing spren to manifest physically.

But Kelsier would have problems with that. He would need to get pulled into the Physical Realm somehow and he lacks proper Connection to it. He would need to do something else to do that. So in the case of Kelsier the Bond would be helpful to achieve that, but this would prevent his bonded partner from leaving Scadrial. 

Truthfully there is one question we haven't considered - can a Cognitive Shadow even manifest as a god metal in the first place, or are they just too human to do that? Sure their soul is made out of raw investiture, they are somewhat comparable to spren, but their soul remembers being alive, being a person - that might be enough to prevent you from manifesting as a god metal. I've found only one WoB about this, which is RAFO:

Spoiler

Questioner

Could a shadow from Threnody be manifested as a Shardblade?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO.

JordanCon 2018 (April 21, 2018)

 

[Stormtide_Leviathan]

On 2/29/2024 at 10:35 AM, alder24 said:

However I see a few problems with this idea. First one is that if Kelsier IS the spike (just like Spren manifests as a Shardblade) then why does the spiked person look like Kelsier, behave like Kelsier and even think he is Kelsier? The Nahel Bond doesn't work like that. If you suggest that Kelsier's body is his manifested body with a Shardspike then that doesn't work as well - spren can't manifest two physical bodies, they can't become a Shardblade and be a human figure at the same time (and they can't have a physical human body, a Shardblade is their physical body).

I agree with your overall conclusion that Kelsier being a godspike of some kind is much less likely than him being stapled to a mistwraith, unless both are tru. But I don't think the fact that this is a bit unlike the usual Nahel bond necessarily rules it out. Using a manifested spren as a spike, if it's even possible, would be *weird* and surely would do weird stuff unlike the usual Nahel bond we see. (And the two bodies isn't a dealbreaker either. Kelsier's cognitive aspect is separated from his physical body, so physically manifesting as metal shouldn't have an effect on it.

The other thing is... we kinda *have* seen something like this. Not necessarily exactly this, with the hemalurgic aspect, but this sounds a lot like the fused who also take over a body and overwrite it with their own sense of self. And clearly there's *some* kind of bond between them and the host singer; I wouldn't be at all surprised if it was some kind of parasitic Nahel bond (which sounds to me like exactly what I'd expect to get from spiking someone with a manifested spren/cognitive shadow)

[alder24]

1 hour ago, Stormtide_Leviathan said:

I agree with your overall conclusion that Kelsier being a godspike of some kind is much less likely than him being stapled to a mistwraith, unless both are tru. But I don't think the fact that this is a bit unlike the usual Nahel bond necessarily rules it out. Using a manifested spren as a spike, if it's even possible, would be *weird* and surely would do weird stuff unlike the usual Nahel bond we see. (And the two bodies isn't a dealbreaker either. Kelsier's cognitive aspect is separated from his physical body, so physically manifesting as metal shouldn't have an effect on it.

The other thing is... we kinda *have* seen something like this. Not necessarily exactly this, with the hemalurgic aspect, but this sounds a lot like the fused who also take over a body and overwrite it with their own sense of self. And clearly there's *some* kind of bond between them and the host singer; I wouldn't be at all surprised if it was some kind of parasitic Nahel bond (which sounds to me like exactly what I'd expect to get from spiking someone with a manifested spren/cognitive shadow)

I agree, I did write this later in that post. I think this part was because I misunderstood that Kelsier is manifested as both a Shardspike and a body at the same time. But a Shardspike stuck into another person can do what Fused do to Singers (that's a good example, I haven't thought of that, I was thinking of Yumi).

[Leuthie]

Shardblades are made of Honor/Cultivation God Metal, not the Spren God Metal. The Investiture the Spren is made up of is brought to the Physical as a metal.

I assume Kelsier is Harmony (Ruin + Preservation). If he manifested as a God Metal, it would be Harmonium.

The big questions regarding Kelsier being his eye spike: Who is he bonded to that's allowing him to manifest in the Physical as an eye spike and why would this convoluted series of Connections be necessary when we've seen a Spren walking around as a Physical person while their Radiant was acting as a paralyzed coat rack?

Edited March 8 by Leuthie

[alder24]

34 minutes ago, Leuthie said:

I assume Kelsier is Harmony (Ruin + Preservation). If he manifested as a God Metal, it would be Harmonium.

I don't think so. He's a Cognitive Shadow made out of Preservation's investiture, it would be Lerasium.

Edited March 8 by alder24

[Glory Spren]

1 hour ago, Leuthie said:

I assume Kelsier is Harmony (Ruin + Preservation). If he manifested as a God Metal, it would be Harmonium.

Well you could also have different alloys made up of the same metals, just of different proportions.

Let's say that Harmonium is something like idk, 60% Preservation and 44% Ruin. That could be an alloy while other proportions could be different.

Maybe something like 60% Ruin and 40% Preservation would result in a totally different alloy potentially, maybe Discordium?

 

I agree 100% Kelsier, and in turn any spike he would manifest as if he were to do so would be some where on the range of Lerasium to sone alloy between Lerasium and Atium, either Harmonium or something else.

33 minutes ago, alder24 said:

He's a Cognitive Shadow made out of Preservation's investiture, it would be Lerasium.

Don't Scadrians have a bit of ruins investiture as well? I know he also got a lot from the well and that was Preservations power and sustained/stabilized his cognitive shadow, but I always assumed there was still a good bit of Ruins investiture left in his cognitive shadow.

[alder24]

2 hours ago, Glory Spren said:

Well you could also have different alloys made up of the same metals, just of different proportions.

Let's say that Harmonium is something like idk, 60% Preservation and 44% Ruin. That could be an alloy while other proportions could be different.

Maybe something like 60% Ruin and 40% Preservation would result in a totally different alloy potentially, maybe Discordium?

Apparently they can be called the same alloy - different types of Shardblades have different amounts of Honor and Cultivation in them, yet they all are considered as the same alloy. That's a valid way of looking at alloys from the metallurgic perspective - an alloy doesn't have a fixed proportion, you can have the metal proportion in a certain range and still consider them as the same alloy, for example steel.

Spoiler

Alpharho

The metal of Shardblades. Cultivationspren versus honorspren, for example. Are they different metals?

Brandon Sanderson

No, but good question.

Alpharho

Are all orders the same alloy, essentially?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. There's a little asterisk on there, but not in the way you're asking... You could call those all the same alloy. Because the mixture to different spren is different, I think that you could argue that each one is its own alloy.

Alpharho

So, different proportions of tanavastium?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, but it doesn't quite work that way with these magics, right? I'm going to say that's up to the individual cosmerologist who is in the world, the arcanist, defining it. You would be able to find enough differences to legitimately call them different alloys if you wanted to.

Alpharho

Would you say different ratios of the same two metals?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. They are not going to have a third one in them, if that's what you're asking. But it doesn't quite work that way. Like, if you were going to take brass, you could measure the exact percentage. In this case, it is a thing; it's not like you could divide it up and split them apart, because they are a thing. And that thing would be called one thing.

Alpharho

But you won't say what that thing is called?

Brandon Sanderson

No, I won't say what that thing is called. But I think you and the 17th Sharders and folks that are dividing them would prefer to call them ten different things, and I think their nomenclature would be relevant.

Skyward Denver signing (Nov. 15, 2018)

 

2 hours ago, Glory Spren said:

Don't Scadrians have a bit of ruins investiture as well? I know he also got a lot from the well and that was Preservations power and sustained/stabilized his cognitive shadow, but I always assumed there was still a good bit of Ruins investiture left in his cognitive shadow.

They do, but it doesn't matter for him, he died and became a Cognitive Shadow. His soul was basically fossilized - it was invested and replaced by Preservation's investiture. He is now 100% of Preservation. But you can technically argue for both cases, it isn't known if the soul is copied or it stays and is massively invested. Either way, he is at least 99.9% of Preservation now.

Spoiler

Questioner

I think there's a flaw in my understanding of Cognitive Shadows. I assume that... they would have more visibility into the Cognitive Realm, like a Herald would be able to see spren more easily, that kind of thing. Is that incorrect?

Brandon Sanderson

That is incorrect. A Cognitive Shadow simply means a copy of the Cognitive side made by a deep amount of Investiture. And everybody has a Cognitive side. Basically it's a fake soul. Or, fake is the wrong term. Fake is the wrong term. Even in-world they don't know if it's really them or not. It is Investiture has replaced the Investiture that is fleeing from them as they die, or enhancing it in some way to keep it around. So some Cognitive Shadows trapped on the Cognitive Realm are going to be-- have a lot of Cognitive-- I mean, they're there, right? But some Cognitive Shadows inhabiting a body in the same way that your mind inhabits your body, the way the cosmere works... So a Herald is going to feel like they are alive just like-- but their soul has been somehow transformed. It's not really transformed, it's been reproduced or copied by an injection of Investiture...

And I'll say for the purpose of the recordings, I haven't canonized any of that terminology that I just used about Cognitive Shadows. I'm just talking about it, I'm not necessarily saying that this is how you are supposed to refer to it. You can refer to it however you want. I've often used the metaphor of how fossils get made. When a fossil is made there is a pattern and it is slowly replaced with another substance that is stronger and more endurant, and has the shape of it, but is it still the bone? When you have a fossil bone is it the dinosaur bone? In most cases no, but yes. It's the ship of Theseus sort of thing again. Is this the bone or is it not? Is this the soul? Is this the person or is it not? That's the same sort of thing is happening with Cognitive Shadows. And it's happening on all three Realms to an extent, though of course the body is not. The body stays. It's happening on two Realms. It's happening Spiritually, mostly Cognitively.

Orem signing (March 10, 2018)

 

[Stormtide_Leviathan]

On 3/8/2024 at 1:17 PM, Glory Spren said:

Let's say that Harmonium is something like idk, 60% Preservation and 44% Ruin. That could be an alloy while other proportions could be different.

Harmonium isn't an alloy of atium and preservation, oddly. It's its own unique godmetal, because harmony is his own unique shard not just two that happen to be held by the same person. It's a greater-than-the-sum-of-its-parts situation

[Scars of Hathsin]

I still think that Kelsier could maybe get off a Scadrial. As we have seen that Hoid and Design get off planet, In Yumi. Please correct me if I am missing anything however

[Stormtide_Leviathan]

3 hours ago, Scars of Hathsin said:

I still think that Kelsier could maybe get off a Scadrial. As we have seen that Hoid and Design get off planet, In Yumi. Please correct me if I am missing anything however

He likely will be able to eventually but doesn't currently know how.