Anyone else feel that WoK Kaladin > WoR Kaladin?

[Daxos he/him]

I'm only about 700 pages in as of posting this and just read the "duel" chapters where Kaladin gets involved.  It's been nagging at me for awhile, but this whole book his character has seemed off from The Way of Kings and he also seemed like a significantly better fighter in the first book.  I kept having this vision in my head that WoK Kaladin would finally appear in the arena and basically school everyone while also revealing his Surgebinding/stormlight powers once and for all to everyone there but no such luck.  Just mediocre Kaladin who showed a glimmer of his former fighting prowess only when infused with stormlight.  Am I alone on this or has anyone else noticed it too?  

[Moogle]

Welcome to the forums!

 

Kaladin mostly only fights super-strong enemies in WoR, and as you've found he spends those fights being afraid to show off his Stormlight. This prevents him from doing a lot of his cool flashy stuff from WoK. I was still quite entranced by the visual from his duel though, where he had a helmet on his hand and was parrying attacks from multiple Shardbearers at the same time.

Edited September 29, 2014 by Moogle

[Colby Jack he/him]

In the first book, Kaladin's opponents were almost all scrubs. In the second, he's fighting with people who were basically the best of the best of the best. With hacks.

Kaladin is definitely one of the best warriors in the story, but physical prowess and skills alone can only carry you so far. Neither hold much weight against an opponent who is either decked out hard with plates and shards, or happened to be a super awesome assassin/windrunner with a perfect kill count and at least a decade more experience with surgebinding than you do, or an immortal world-hopper who can whip your butt six ways to sunday with just his pinkie... toe.

Really, I think it's a bit unfair now. By my estimations, Kaladin is already elite tier on his own. He'll be just plain overpowered as a windrunner. I don't doubt that in next book, he'll be able to mow down whole armies of scrubs with his spear like a character right out of one of those Dynasty Warrior games. Wait, that already happened at the end of the first book... Darn it, Kaladin need a nerf! And so does that Szeth fellow! He's like Ezio on crack!

[Titan Arum]

I agree with the others, that the quality of his opponents is far superior in WoR. My problem, though, with Kaladin in WoR is the swing in his characterization relative to WoK. I understand Brandon wants to build him up and tear him down a bit, but it seems he goes too low compared to who he is and how honorable he is painted in WoK. However, in the 3rd book I have a feeling he'll be awesome and my gripes about characterization will be blown away with the wind... 

[king of nowhere]

so, if you call fighting two of the best sllethi shardbearer duelists by himself unarmed and unarmored and eventually forcing them to surrender "mediocre", you need to revise your evaluation scale.

His other fights in wor were against szeth, who is the writing equivalent of a cheat character, and zahel, who is actually vasher from warbreaker, he was already an excellent fighter at the time (don't be confused by the fact that he was slightly worse than denth; denth was one of the best in the world and just resisting a few minutes against him is a great achievement) and has who knows how many centuries of extra experience to top that.

I agree with the others, that the quality of his opponents is far superior in WoR. My problem, though, with Kaladin in WoR is the swing in his characterization relative to WoK. I understand Brandon wants to build him up and tear him down a bit, but it seems he goes too low compared to who he is and how honorable he is painted in WoK. However, in the 3rd book I have a feeling he'll be awesome and my gripes about characterization will be blown away with the wind... 

I was also surprised, but it makes a lot of sense. in wok kaladin had to protect his crew against lighteyes machinations, and his best traits could shine.

in wor, he had to trust people utside of himself and his crew, and most notably lighteyes. Plus,he had almost made the decision of confiding in dalinar, when amaram arrived. that arc brought out the worst of kaladin, and yes, he seemed like a different person, but he is not, just like two sides of a coin seem different but actually belong to the same coin. kaladin is good at inspiring people and being a leader. he is not good at dealing with lighteyes he can't bribe or stay away from. he is not good at trusting his own leaders. You can see how he acts all the time like he's in charge even with the kholins. that's no different from how he behaved in the first book; remember how he was always paied only token respect to his superiors, even in amaram army he bribed them to be free to act on his own. nothing of that changed. it's just that in wor found himself in a totally different situation where his old instincts were no longer good.

[Who Sharded?]

Everyone says they didn't like him as much in WoR as in TWoK, but I found him much more amusing in WoR.  I loved how he tended to rub everyone the wrong way.

[maxal she/her]

The difference between WoK and WoR is that in the later, Kaladin encounters people who actually know how to fight and he still did remarkably well.

 

Which fight are you referring to when you say he is deceiving in that matter? The one with Zahel on the training ground? How can you expect Kaladin to expertly know how to yield a sword or to adequately fight a swordsmaster? All he has ever fought were dummies on border skirmishes.... Don't get me wrong, Kaladin IS a good fighter, but he is lacking in experience and he is using a weapon I think is inferior (correct me someone if I am wrong). He has no experience with the sword, a much more difficult weapon to master, and little experience fighting any swordsmen with any talent.

 

Now, if Kaladin had become an expert swords wielder or if he had killed Szeth on the first encounter, then I would have been sorely deceived as it is surrealistic to have such over-powered characters. I loved the fact Brandon showed us the prowess of other characters on the battling ground: Kal is not a god (or I hope he isn't) nor is he the only one who knows how to fight.

[Daxos he/him]

I guess I just feel like he's somehow much less graceful than the whirling dancing master with a spear that he was portrayed as in the first book.  Killing a Shardbearer, wounding another, and pretty much wiping out entire waves of Parshendi when he bailed out Dalinar's army (what was left of it, at any rate) while being able to have arrows that never hit him or even an entire army's worth of arrows drawn to a shield made it seem like the guy was more or less invincible.  I don't get the same sense of grace or invincibility in this book regardless of the quality of his opponents and it felt like his character was being forced to take a major step back.  He's not a god but he was basically an invincible superhero in the first one.  Maybe there's just less detail in the fight scenes this time.

 

The other aspect of what I said in the OP that only one person addressed was in regards to his character.  He comes across pretty different to me and constantly has a major chip on his shoulder as well as a stick up his butt that wasn't there in the first book despite considerably worse circumstances.  There are other examples too but I'm only on a first reading of it and my ability to recall a vast array of specific examples at the drop of a hat isn't as great as it used to be. lol  Too much sleep deprivation (I suffer from major insomnia).  At times it's almost left me with the impression that Sanderson wrote the first book at a much earlier time and then lost touch with who Kaladin was/is when he wrote the second.  That may be inadvertently contributing to my perception that he's now a weaker fighter as well.  

 

All in all though, that first book was outstanding.  Easily one of my favorite books of all time.  This one took me a little longer to get into (I wasn't a huge Shallan fan after the first book) but is an excellent sequel.  I'll be anxiously awaiting the third book and plan on rereading 1 & 2 just prior to its release.  I rarely do that but these are well worth it. 

Edited September 30, 2014 by Daxos

[kaellok he/him]

Regarding Kaladin's character in WoR vs WoK, Brandon has said that the anger and whatnot that Kaladin shows was always there before (and we see glimmers of it in WoK) but he was focused on other priorities and so it wasn't as clear.  However, in WoR, his men are in a basically good place with basically good leaders, and so he can focus all of his worry and concerns into being a prejudiced jerk.  I, too, had a lot of problems with Kaladin as a character initially (just see my first posts here on 17th Shard forums if you doubt!--but please let those threads stay dead, lol), but I've at least come to understand the reasoning behind them--which goes a long ways towards making me want to reread the book.  (I don't do rereads as often as some people, as I tend to have a very good memory of books I've read, but on books I particularly enjoy I'll read again every year or two.)

 

While I sort of liked Shallan in WoK, I really enjoyed her in WoR.  Actually, aside from Kaladin's character, I enjoyed everything in WoR more than WoK--and I loved WoK.  I have plenty of faith waiting for Book 3 that it will 'fix' the problems I had with Kaladin (which is already starting to  happen by the end of WoR) and let them stay mostly fixed, so that he can deal with other problems instead.  Since Kaladin has been 'outed' as a Radiant now, too, I think that his fights will be more on the scale and par with what you were expecting.  In WoK, he had a relatively small spotlight on him, while trying to remain hidden; in WoR, he's got a huge spotlight, with bigger/better enemies, while still trying to remain hidden.

[maxal she/her]

I guess I just feel like he's somehow much less graceful than the whirling dancing master with a spear that he was portrayed as in the first book.  Killing a Shardbearer, wounding another, and pretty much wiping out entire waves of Parshendi when he bailed out Dalinar's army (what was left of it, at any rate) while being able to have arrows that never hit him or even an entire army's worth of arrows drawn to a shield made it seem like the guy was more or less invincible.  I don't get the same sense of grace or invincibility in this book regardless of the quality of his opponents and it felt like his character was being forced to take a major step back.  He's not a god but he was basically an invincible superhero in the first one.  Maybe there's just less detail in the fight scenes this time.

 

I have a different experience with Kaladin. I loved him in WoK, I was routing behind him and I did not feel he was over-powered, but in WoR.... I was happy he was actually struggling with some aspect of his fighting such as learning the sword and fighting without his bond. WoR has, however, brought down Kaladin for me. Instead of routing for him, I found myself annoyed with him.

 

I also thought his "struggles" were meaningless compared to his fights. He basically save the day three times, he never really get into trouble fighting wise even if he did struggle fighting Szeth that first time.

 

I felt he was too much of a superhero in WoR.... and I did not like it. Kal just turned to be too much for me... Sadly.

 

I also feel we have heard enough of Kal and I wish the story would concentrate more on the Kohlin family, which are not getting as much screen time despite being more interesting and more numeorus (this is my personal opinion so feel free to disagree). I am deeply afraid book three will be divided in three: Kaladin, Shallan and Szeth, the Kohlins being reduced to a few small chapters.

 

 

Regarding Kaladin's character in WoR vs WoK, Brandon has said that the anger and whatnot that Kaladin shows was always there before (and we see glimmers of it in WoK) but he was focused on other priorities and so it wasn't as clear.  However, in WoR, his men are in a basically good place with basically good leaders, and so he can focus all of his worry and concerns into being a prejudiced jerk.  I, too, had a lot of problems with Kaladin as a character initially (just see my first posts here on 17th Shard forums if you doubt!--but please let those threads stay dead, lol), but I've at least come to understand the reasoning behind them--which goes a long ways towards making me want to reread the book.  (I don't do rereads as often as some people, as I tend to have a very good memory of books I've read, but on books I particularly enjoy I'll read again every year or two.)

 

While I sort of liked Shallan in WoK, I really enjoyed her in WoR.  Actually, aside from Kaladin's character, I enjoyed everything in WoR more than WoK--and I loved WoK.  I have plenty of faith waiting for Book 3 that it will 'fix' the problems I had with Kaladin (which is already starting to  happen by the end of WoR) and let them stay mostly fixed, so that he can deal with other problems instead.  Since Kaladin has been 'outed' as a Radiant now, too, I think that his fights will be more on the scale and par with what you were expecting.  In WoK, he had a relatively small spotlight on him, while trying to remain hidden; in WoR, he's got a huge spotlight, with bigger/better enemies, while still trying to remain hidden.

 

I want to see, I want to see, I want to see :ph34r: I have wrote some pretty bad myself and I am still writing some horrible ones    I just can't help feeling tired with Kal

 

As I said earlier, I wish for less Kaladin chapters in the next book. And less Shallan as well.These two have had their share of spotlight, let's move to the other characters we have. More Kohlins, any Kohlin.

[kaellok he/him]

 

As I said earlier, I wish for less Kaladin chapters in the next book. And less Shallan as well.These two have had their share of spotlight, let's move to the other characters we have. More Kohlins, any Kohlin.

What about Shallan Kohlin?  

[AerionBFII he/him]

He has had a hard life, he struggles with trust issues and depression which is understandable. to me it adds some reality to the series.

You dont just get over that in a short amount of time but i think he is slowly getting better and all part of Brandon's character growth plan.

 

He's slowly starting to trust in light eyes, Adolin, Dalinar and Shallan. We even get a glimpse at his horrible puns which he mistakes for humor when he is with Shallan in the cavern.

 

I think through out the course of book 3 he will continue to grow as a character and i am looking forward to it, he is my Fave Rosharan and character in the Cosmere.... well him and Hoid.

[maxal she/her]

What about Shallan Kohlin?  

 

Oh you like to twist things around I doubt Shallan will become Shallan Kohlin in the next book or two so I'll maintain my position

 

[sun tzaro]

As others in this thread have pointed out, WoR Kaladin was focusing on staying hidden more than on just surviving, as he was in WoK. 

 

I guess I just feel like he's somehow much less graceful than the whirling dancing master with a spear that he was portrayed as in the first book.  

 

I was rereading a section of WoR, when I was trying to contend the idea that Kaladin never really had all that much innate skill, and I found that Kaladin does seem to really have a way with the spear. In his first encounter with Szeth in the hallway, he can anticipate Szeth's moves, and seems to be on the verge of beating him - that is, until he finds out that Szeth can move just as fast as he can, since they are both Stormlight users.

 

I think maybe an explanation for Kaladin's drop in prowess - beyond his urge to be more discreet in stormlight usage - is that in much of WoR, Kaladin has lost his way. In WoK, he was fighting to protect a group of bridgeman that he had come to love. He was fighting to keep a promise to himself, a promise to keep all of them alive.

 

In WoR, Kaladin is lost. As Syl notes, he should be happy - but he's not. He's surrounded by Lighteyes, and the struggle for survival seems distant - Kaladin is more consumed with his hatred for Amaram, and with the plot to kill Elkohar than anything else. I think Kaladin's attitudes, at the very least, certainly make sense, considering his situation.

 

 

Oh you like to twist things around I doubt Shallan will become Shallan Kohlin in the next book or two so I'll maintain my position
 

 

What could possibly stop their marriage?

 

I mean, after all, they both deal with problematic lighteyes in the same way. 

Edited October 2, 2014 by sun tzaro

[maxal she/her]

What could possibly stop their marriage?

 

I mean, after all, they both deal with problematic lighteyes in the same way. 

 

I don't know... certain events may put the marriage on hold... or Shallan may not want to get married anymore now she can muster sufficient influence on her own to safeguard her house or Adolin may think he is not good enough for her anymore or...............

 

I think Brandon mentioned he would show us an Alethki wedding... so I am hoping it will be Shallan/Adolin.

[Moogle]

Dalinar and Navani are who I'd predict we see being married. Adolin is bad with women and almost seems cursed to quickly break up with anyone he's in a relationship. I could see that trend continuing with Shallan as a sort of subversion of the main-characters-getting-together trope.

Edited October 2, 2014 by Moogle

[Colby Jack he/him]

Ever since I've read about the time-skip after book five, I've pictured a scenario where Adolin and Shallan really do marry, but after the time-skip, they both realized they are completely incompatible and they are now stuck in a loveless union, like what happened to between Gavilar and Navani. Shallan doesn't seem to have much affection for Adolin that doesn't involves either his family or his face.

Edited October 2, 2014 by Colby Jack

[maxal she/her]

Dalinar and Navani are who I'd predict we see being married. Adolin is bad with women and almost seems cursed to quickly break up with anyone he's in a relationship. I could see that trend continuing with Shallan as a sort of subversion of the main-characters-getting-together trope.

 

Dalinar and Navani are not allowed to marry. I sincerely doubt they would go against Vorinism just for the shake of it.

 

Whereas Adolin has been bad with women before, he has shown he was willing to change and he had express the desire to settle down. Shallan is the first women he is actually crushing on: he didn't care about any of the others. I do think their union going through hardships due to circumstances, but I certainly do not see Adolin remaining single. Brandon has been mentioning too often how Adolin is late to marry according to the Alethki tradition for not having him tie the knot at some point.

 

 

Ever since I've read about the time-skip after book five, I've pictured a scenario where Adolin and Shallan really do marry, but after the time-skip, they both realized they are completely incompatible and they are now stuck in a loveless union, like what happened to between Gavilar and Navani. Shallan doesn't seem to have much affection for Adolin that doesn't involves either his family or his face.

 

I do not like the idea our younger crew's life has to mirror that of their elders.... I see no reason for the Adolin/Shallan union to end up like the Galivar/Navani one. For one, based on the clues we have, it is possible to make the argument Galivar was not the great man everyone thought him to be, whereas we can attest Adolin is a very loving person who would never hurt his close ones. I am not sure we can say the same about Galivar... I can see Adolin becoming many persons, but never a loveless husband. His whole persona is defined around his relationship to people and the care (or hate) he has for them.

 

I think Shallan cares more about Adolin then people are giving her credit for. It may not be love, it may just be physical attraction, for now, but I do not see why they couldn't evolved into something more. After all, those two have been dating for a few weeks only. However, Shallan being a person used to hide her true feelings, it may take her some time to figure out how she really feels about Adolin. I am thinking events in the next book may force her to do so. Perhaps if she looses him, she will realize the depth of her true feelings. Or not. I guess it could go both way.

[WeiryWriter he/him]

Dalinar and Navani are not allowed to marry. I sincerely doubt they would go against Vorinism just for the shake of it.

 

Sorry for ignoring most of your post but this is not true.  The only thing against their relationship is tradition, there are zero laws disallowing it.  Navani checked.

[maxal she/her]

Sorry for ignoring most of your post but this is not true.  The only thing against their relationship is tradition, there are zero laws disallowing it.  Navani checked.

 

Perhaps not a written law, but a doctrine from Vorinism? I always understood their union was a forbidden one. Anyway, even if it were accepted, I would prefer to see the Shallan/Adolin weeding. I don't see the purpose of Dalinar and Navani marrying.

[Daxos he/him]

There's a lot of talk about Adolin and Shallan but is everybody really so certain they end up together?  Shallan and Kaladin got awfully cozy in the chasms and Kaladin clearly likes her, as evinced by his reaction to her bringing Adolin into the conversation on page 851.  If nothing else, it was a bonding experience and the start of a more meaningful relationship than what they had previously.  I could see a potential love triangle between the three of them that keeps Adolin and Kaladin at odds or rejuvenates the rivalry in their burgeoning friendship...maybe something along the lines of: Adolin and Shallan reach a rocky point, her and Kaladin hook up in almost a purely physical way (she mentioned something about his eyes/persona being full of passion while in the chasm), but in the end it can't work out because their pasts are too similar -- that is to say, two broken people -- and she realizes just how much she cares about the junior highprince.  I wouldn't be entirely blown away by a highstorm to see Shallan and Kaladin together at some point either though.    

 

Just a thought I had as I read through some of the replies here.

I would prefer to see the Shallan/Adolin weeding.

 

Is that where they both get high in a non-Windrunner kind of way?  That would definitely be something to see. 

Edited October 3, 2014 by Rubix
Please don't double post. Use the edit button instead.

[maxal she/her]

There's a lot of talk about Adolin and Shallan but is everybody really so certain they end up together?  Shallan and Kaladin got awfully cozy in the chasms and Kaladin clearly likes her, as evinced by his reaction to her bringing Adolin into the conversation on page 851.  If nothing else, it was a bonding experience and the start of a more meaningful relationship than what they had previously.  I could see a potential love triangle between the three of them that keeps Adolin and Kaladin at odds or rejuvenates the rivalry in their burgeoning friendship...maybe something along the lines of: Adolin and Shallan reach a rocky point, her and Kaladin hook up in almost a purely physical way (she mentioned something about his eyes/persona being full of passion while in the chasm), but in the end it can't work out because their pasts are too similar -- that is to say, two broken people -- and she realizes just how much she cares about the junior highprince.  I wouldn't be entirely blown away by a highstorm to see Shallan and Kaladin together at some point either though.    

 

Just a thought I had as I read through some of the replies here.  

 

Oh I definitely see what you are suggesting happening...

 

I did not see the chasm as a bonding moment so much as dire circumstances that called for confession. I do think it is quite possible Kaladin is crushing on Shallan, but I do not think he does so for the good reason. He admires her ability to smile despite having had a terrible childhood and he thinks she is pretty... I do agree there is a strong chance these feelings will get explore some more, but I do not wish to see him and Shallan as an item in the long run. I do not think they work well together as a couple. There is a world between them I do not think they will ever managed to bridge properly.

 

There is also the fact I do believe Shallan needs someone who will, ultimately, take care of her (even if she denies it for now), someone loving and caring. OK not that I believe Kal is incapable of these things, but he is not a warm person. He is more the cold intense kind of person, which is very fine, but not what would make Shallan happy, in the long run. In the short run, yeah, I can see it happening. Just like you say.

 

I also think Shallan is perfect for Adolin, just too perfect. She is exactly what he needs: a smart passionate woman who does not care about conventions, someone who can make him laugh.

 

I think Kaladin needs someone more grounded and not a high ranked ligheye. He has too much issues with those to manage to make a relationship with one work out in the long run. He needs a smart, independent woman with strong roots and a normal life: no tragedy in her past. Kal has enough trouble letting go of what he considers are failure on his part he may end up feeling responsible for Shallan's past as well.

 

Also, Adolin needing to marry has been mention at least a hundred times on both books.... The guy just cannot end up alone to stand and watch his father getting married against all odds. That would be very strange...

 

 

Is that where they both get high in a non-Windrunner kind of way?  That would definitely be something to see. 

 

Yep. I would definitely like to see that     and Pattern waiting in the corridor...

[WeiryWriter he/him]

Perhaps not a written law, but a doctrine from Vorinism? I always understood their union was a forbidden one. Anyway, even if it were accepted, I would prefer to see the Shallan/Adolin weeding. I don't see the purpose of Dalinar and Navani marrying.

 

WoK Chapter 61 has this to say (emphasis mine):

 

She looked up at him. "Well, let it be said—then—that I was fond of Gavilar. But I'm more than fond of you. And I'm tired of waiting."

He closed his eyes. "How can this work?"

“We’ll find a way."

"We’ll be denounced."

"The warcamps already ignore me," Navani said, "and they spread rumors and lies about you. What more can they do to us?"

"They'll find something. As of yet, the devotaries do not condemn me."

"Gavilar is dead," Navani said, resting her head back against his chest. "I was never unfaithful while he lived, though the Stormfather knows I had ample reason. The devotaries can say what they wish, but The Arguments do not forbid our union. Tradition is not the same as doctrine, and I will not hold myself back for fear of offending."

[maxal she/her]

 

WoK Chapter 61 has this to say (emphasis mine):

 

 

I believe she was speaking of their unofficial union not potential marriage... Marrying would probably be taking it too far.

[Arondell]

So far nothing indicates that a marriage between Dalinar and Navani involves the law.  It appears to be entirely a matter of tradition and precedence.  This thought passes through Shallan's mind when Navani stops keeping her at a distance.

 

 

So she was kind of Shallan’s future mother-in-law, though by Vorin tradition Dalinar would never be allowed to marry her.

Sanderson, Brandon (2014-03-04). Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 939). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

 

Very strong tradition it seems but then again it is pretty clear that the world is about to change. Traditions like this could well be viewed as inconsequential compared to the upheavals that are about to occur.