Feruchemical Compounding without Allomancy

[Colors]

Alright, so I apologize if this has been mentioned before, but a cursory search didn't turn up any threads I could find so I'm going to go ahead and throw this out there.

So, the premise of feruchemical compounding is that it uses the end positive nature of allomancy to amplify feruchemically stored attributes. Typically this requires storing the attribute in a piece of the appropriate metal and then allomantically burning that metalmind and re-storing the power that comes out, which is greatly amplified from the amount of the attribute originally stored. Of course this requires someone to have the ability to allomantically burn the same metal they are capable of storing attributes in (i.e. Miles Hundredlives or TLR).

What if there were a way around that limitation?

Spoiler

Couldn't access to purified investiture, such as the purified Dor in the Lost Metal, allow a Ferring or Feruchemist who would normally be incapable of compounding to do so? We need to understand how Feruchemy works to understand how this would work. When a Feruchemist stores a given attribute it is converted into investiture and stored in their metalmind. Hypothetically shouldn't a Ferring be able to directly store pure investiture into their metalmind while also storing that attribute and then when they tap the metalmind they should be able to access all of that investiture in the form of a greatly amplified pool of whatever attribute they stored?

Am I crazy?

Edited February 23, 2024 by Colors

[alder24]

7 minutes ago, Colors said:

Couldn't access to purified investiture, such as the purified Dor in the Lost Metal, allow a Ferring or Feruchemist who would normally be incapable of compounding to do so?

No need for a spoiler box for TLM (it left the spoiler zone a year ago). But yes, a Feruchemist can use pure Dor to fuel his Feruchemy, just like an Allomancer can do that. You can do that with Mists, you can do that with liquid investiture etc - you need it to be keyed in the specific way for you to use it (for example unkeyed Dor). I wouldn't call it compounding however, because you don't compound powers, you are just using a different fuel. Vin using Mists to fuel Allomancy was not compounding, the same with Marasi and Metalborns trapped by Set. 

I would define Cosmere Compounding as using a different invested art to fuel another, mixing powers - you burn metals to get Feruchemical attributes. Dor is not an invested art, it's just investiture. 

Spoiler

Kaimipono

Allomancy is fueled by Preservation's body? How exactly does that work? And how does that interact with Atium—it's fueled by both gods' bodies?

Brandon Sanderson

The powers of Ruin and Preservation are Shards of Adonalsium, pieces of the power of creation itself. Allomancy, Hemalurgy, Feruchemy are manifestations of this power in mortal form, the ability to touch the powers of creation and use them. These metallic powers are how people's physical forms interpret the use of the Shard, though it's not the only possible way they could be interpreted or used. It's what the genetics and Realmatic interactions of Scadrial allow for, and has to do with the Spiritual, the Cognitive, and the Physical Realms.

Condensed 'essence' of these godly powers can act as super-fuel for Allomancy, Feruchemy, or really any of the powers. The form of that super fuel is important. In liquid form it's most potent, in gas form it's able to fuel Allomancy as if working as a metal. In physical form it is rigid and does one specific thing. In the case of atium, it allows sight into the future. In the case of concentrated Preservation, it gives one a permanent connection to the mists and the powers of creation. (I.e., it makes them an Allomancer.)

So when a person is burning metals, they aren't using Preservation's body as a fuel so to speak—though they are tapping into the powers of creation just slightly. When Vin burns the mists, however, she'd doing just that—using the essence of Preservation, the Shard of Adonalsium itself—to fuel Allomancy. Doing this, however, rips 'troughs' through her body. It's like forcing far too much pressure through a very small, fragile hose. That much power eventually vaporizes the corporeal host, which is acting as the block and forcing the power into a single type of conduit (Allomancy) and frees it to be more expansive.

Hero of Ages Q&A - Time Waster's Guide (Oct. 15, 2008)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

So you said that different Investitures from different worlds can fuel different Investitures, right? Would that mean that you could potentially use Stormlight for Allomancy and/or Feruchemy?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, a little harder with the Metallic Arts than, for instance, Nightblood is the easiest example. He can just feed on whatever Investiture is around.

[...]

Barnes & Noble B-Fest 2016 (June 11, 2016)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

As far as the Lord Ruler goes, how did he use the Twinborn thing? Feruchemy and Allomancy?

Brandon Sanderson

What he had to figure out how to do is: Allomancy is powered by Spiritual power directly from the Shard of Adonalsium. Whereas Feruchemy is powered by your own Investiture and effort being transferred into the thing. What he needed to do was figure out a way to power Feruchemy with Allomantic power, right? You could have done the same thing by fueling it with the Dor, or with Stormlight, or another external. But he only had access to three magics. So what he had to do was figure out that.

So what he's doing is, he's basically taking metals, (since he's a Feruchemist and an allomancers), and he is burning metals that he has Invested himself, but then using... basically, switching it so he gets a burst of Allomantic power that is charged with a Feruchemical attribute. So it's powering Feruchemy with Allomancy by burning the metal that he himself has Invested.

Questioner

So he was essentially putting stuff into the metal?

Brandon Sanderson

Basically, priming the pump. He puts it in with Feruchemy. Then he burns it with Allomancy. But that fuels Feruchemy with Allomancy, which allows him to draw on the powers of the Shards, rather than himself. So it's not really a perpetual motion machine, because he's drawing the power from someone else. But it's external, which allows him to break the rules of Feruchemy.

The big question I have is: that works in the book, because you can dig into the technicalities of the book. But that's not gonna work in the movie, right? That explanation right there, that's so many levels over the heads of the audience. So I have to figure out a way to not break the cosmere magic, but make it simpler to understand in the movie. Which is the big headache in writing the screenplay. That's probably the biggest challenge in the screenplay is to figure out how to make that all work.

LTUE 2020 (Feb. 15, 2020)

 

18 minutes ago, Colors said:

Hypothetically shouldn't a Ferring be able to directly store pure investiture into their metalmind while also storing that attribute and then when they tap the metalmind they should be able to access all of that investiture in the form of a greatly amplified pool of whatever attribute they stored?

I don't think you even have to store that attribute from your body while using Dor. Your intent alone should filter that investiture into the correct attribute. You would not need to use your body anymore if you were to have unkeyed Dor, or other types of external physical investiture. An Allomancer using Dor doesn't have to burn metals, investiture is shaped by their intent in that case - it happened to Vin while Ascending and to Metalborns trapped by Set. They didn't have metals, they just used Dor and later the Shardpool directly as fuels for their Allomancy. The same should work for Feruchemists, they don't even have to store or tap metalminds (they probably can), they can just turn that pure investiture directly into attributes they want.

[Colors]

27 minutes ago, alder24 said:

 

I would define Cosmere Compounding as using a different invested art to fuel another, mixing powers - you burn metals to get Feruchemical attributes. Dor is not an invested art, it's just investiture. 

That is fair if we are defining compounding by the process, not the result that makes total sense. What I am proposing is a different process, but should provide the same results. The only difference is you're fueling it with pure investiture instead of Preservation specific investiture. In essence what I am proposing is compounding with fewer steps. Either way you are using external investiture to amplify your pool of X attribute. But, that is a fair distinction to say that compounding requires the input of more than one magic system to be considered compounding, it makes logical sense. 

Edited February 23, 2024 by Colors

[Quantus he/him]

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

No need for a spoiler box for TLM (it left the spoiler zone a year ago). But yes, a Feruchemist can use pure Dor to fuel his Feruchemy, just like an Allomancer can do that. You can do that with Mists, you can do that with liquid investiture etc - you need it to be keyed in the specific way for you to use it (for example unkeyed Dor). I wouldn't call it compounding however, because you don't compound powers, you are just using a different fuel. Vin using Mists to fuel Allomancy was not compounding, the same with Marasi and Metalborns trapped by Set. 

I would define Cosmere Compounding as using a different invested art to fuel another, mixing powers - you burn metals to get Feruchemical attributes. Dor is not an invested art, it's just investiture. 

Let me chase this line a bit more with some hypothetical examples, tell me if I have it right:  

• Per WOB a Radiant with Breaths could fuel surges by using up those Breaths; this would Not be Compounding.
• Given the malleable nature of Breaths and the way they will adopt the Identity of their target when gifted, I strongly suspect they could be Commanded to enter an existing (ie Charged) metalmind and Charge it up by converting one Breath's worth of Investiture into whatever the metalmind was tuned to.  This would be Compounding because it required Awakening and not just the possession of Breaths.
• If an Allomancer were to gain the ability to breath Stormlight (became a Squire, maybe), they should logically be able to fuel Allomancy with their own held Stormlight just like Purified Dor, but this would not be not Compounding.  
• If an Elantrian Allomancer were able to fuel their Allomancy with Dor simply because of their Nature it's not Compounding, but if they did anything with actual AonDor it would be. 

So fueling one magic system with another Investiture because you already have it in your physical body is not Compounding, but if the process requires specific steps involving some Magic system makes it compounding.  Yes?

[alder24]

3 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Per WOB a Radiant with Breaths could fuel surges by using up those Breaths; this would Not be Compounding.

Yes.

3 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Given the malleable nature of Breaths and the way they will adopt the Identity of their target when gifted, I strongly suspect they could be Commanded to enter an existing (ie Charged) metalmind and Charge it up by converting one Breath's worth of Investiture into whatever the metalmind was tuned to.  This would be Compounding because it required Awakening and not just the possession of Breaths.

Yes, if that's possible. I'm not sure it would be that easy.

4 minutes ago, Quantus said:

If an Allomancer were to gain the ability to breath Stormlight (became a Squire, maybe), they should logically be able to fuel Allomancy with their own held Stormlight just like Purified Dor, but this would not be not Compounding.  

Yes.

4 minutes ago, Quantus said:

If an Elantrian Allomancer were able to fuel their Allomancy with Dor simply because of their Nature it's not Compounding, but if they did anything with actual AonDor it would be. 

Yes.

5 minutes ago, Quantus said:

So fueling one magic system with another Investiture because you already have it in your physical body is not Compounding, but if the process requires specific steps involving some Magic system makes it compounding.  Yes?

Yes. At least if we want to establish a general definition of Compounding, that can be applied to something else than just Feruchemy and Allomancy, similar to the Cosmere definition of Lightweaving and stuff like that.

Another example might be burning an Awakened metal, however there are two conflicting WoBs on this (from the same day), so wo don't know how that would work:

Spoiler

Questioner

What would happen if an Allomancer burned Awakened metal?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh boy, we start right with the really hard ones. So, it would be very difficult to do, and other than that it's going to depend on who the Breaths are keyed to with Identity.

Footnote: followed-up by this
Warsaw signing (March 18, 2017)

 

Spoiler

Questioner (paraphrased)

What would happen if Allomancer was also an Awakener and Awakened metal he'd burn?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

If he did that, he’d get Allomantic power and also get back the Breaths used in Awakening the metal.

Footnote: Supposedly it was around half an hour into the signing line; has not been found on the record although we may have started it after it was asked already; follow-up to this
Warsaw signing (March 18, 2017)

 

[Colors]

7 hours ago, Quantus said:

 

• If an Allomancer were to gain the ability to breath Stormlight (became a Squire, maybe), they should logically be able to fuel Allomancy with their own held Stormlight just like Purified Dor, but this would not be not Compounding.  . 

Got me thinking...if you gave Lift a Feruchemical Medallion would she be able to use Lifelight from eating to fuel/amplify the feruchemy provided by the Medallion?

[Treamayne]

6 hours ago, Colors said:

Got me thinking...if you gave Lift a Feruchemical Medallion would she be able to use Lifelight from eating to fuel/amplify the feruchemy provided by the Medallion?

WoB:

Spoiler

 

Quote

 

Shadowglass0

If someone used Hemalurgy to give Lift from Words of Radiance the ability to use Bendalloy Feruchemy, could she convert the nutrition she gets out of Feruchemy into stormlight?

Brandon Sanderson

Theoretically possible, I suppose.

/r/books AMA 2015 (May 29, 2015)

 

Quote

Zantis

Let's say Lift received two Hemalurgic spikes: one for Allomantic bendalloy and one for Feruchemical bendalloy. Then she eats a bunch of pancakes, stores the nutrition in a piece of bendalloy, burns it to compound nutrition. Can that nutrition be turned into Stormlight?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah.  Yeah, but remember she didn't have to be-- so basically what that-- Is just a really complicated way for her to turn Allomantic Investiture-- so that it can allocate Allomantic Investiture into Stormlight. That would be a complex method of doing that. Just transferring one type of Investiture into another. It's just basically drawing from Ruin and she is then turning it into Stormlight-ish? It's a complicated thing, but that's basically what happens, just really crazy.

Zantis

Okay, so-- but it is the same sort of thing, right? *hesitant nod from Brandon* And--

Brandon Sanderson

I hope that eventually in the cosmere they will find easier ways than that.

Emerald City Comic Con 2018 (March 1, 2018)

 

 

[Colors]

2 hours ago, Treamayne said:

WoB:

  Hide contents

 

 

 

I feel like maybe Brandon was missing the point slightly? What the questioner was suggesting was compounding. Yes, in a way it's just turning one form of investiture into another, but it's also multiplying the amount of Lifelight Lift could derive from a given food. That combined with the ability for her to gorge and store, then tap whenever she wants would be extremely useful. 

[alder24]

30 minutes ago, Colors said:

it's also multiplying the amount of Lifelight Lift could derive from a given food.

No, she wouldn't get more, she would get the same amount of investiture. The amount of calories stored in a metalmind will be the same as the amount of calories Lift would get from eating the same amount of food. That means both would provide the same amount of investiture. In both cases the investiture is coming from your body - form food. 

The reason why you get more investiture from compounding Feruchemy with Allomancy is that Feruchemy deals with less investiture than Allomancy. You can only store so much as your body has, while in Allomancy you are drawing from an external source and you are unrestricted by your body. That's why you get more while compounding, the amount of attribute stored in 1 gram of metal is less than the amount of investiture you can get from that 1 gram from Spiritual Realm by burning it.

I'm not sure if I would call Lift with A-Bendalloy compounding. Kind of?

Edited February 24, 2024 by alder24

[Colors]

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

No, she wouldn't get more, she would get the same amount of investiture. The amount of calories stored in a metalmind will be the same as the amount of calories Lift would get from eating the same amount of food. That means both would provide the same amount of investiture. In both cases the investiture is coming from your body - form food. 

The reason why you get more investiture from compounding Feruchemy with Allomancy is that Feruchemy deals with less investiture than Allomancy. You can only store so much as your body has, while in Allomancy you are drawing from an external source and you are unrestricted by your body. That's why you get more while compounding, the amount of attribute stored in 1 gram of metal is less than the amount of investiture you can get from that 1 gram from Spiritual Realm by burning it.

I'm not sure if I would call Lift with A-Bendalloy compounding. Kind of?

No, in the second instance the questioner says she is spiked with two spikes, A-Bendalloy and F-Bendalloy. She is eating, storing that food in a Bendalloymine, allomantically burning the Bendalloy mine to compound and then her body is converting the compounded nutrition into Lifelight.

So yes, it is just turning one form of investiture into the other, but she is essentially using Bendalloy compounding to greatly enhance how much Lifelight she can produce from a given amount of food.

Which, when you think about it is probably not that useful anyway (at least anymore-so than having Feruchemical Bendalloy by itself). Bendalloy seems like it would be fairly easy to store in day to day life, as long as you weren't in a situation where you went prolonged periods without access to food. She'd likely be almost as effective just gorging on food everytime she can and storing it. She's friends with enough people in high places that feasts shouldn't be THAT hard to come by.

Edited February 24, 2024 by Colors

[alder24]

4 hours ago, Colors said:

No, in the second instance the questioner says she is spiked with two spikes, A-Bendalloy and F-Bendalloy.

Ok, right, my mistake. If she compounds she is gaining more. But if she has only F-Bendalloy she is getting the same amount. 

4 hours ago, Colors said:

So yes, it is just turning one form of investiture into the other, but she is essentially using Bendalloy compounding to greatly enhance how much Lifelight she can produce from a given amount of food.

Which, when you think about it is probably not that useful anyway (at least anymore-so than having Feruchemical Bendalloy by itself). Bendalloy seems like it would be fairly easy to store in day to day life, as long as you weren't in a situation where you went prolonged periods without access to food. She'd likely be almost as effective just gorging on food everytime she can and storing it. She's friends with enough people in high places that feasts shouldn't be THAT hard to come by.

Bendalloy compounding is very useful for her. She can't really eat when she fights, she has to take a break and find some food and we've seen her doing that many times in books. With Bendalloy compounding she practically has an infinite amount of Lifelight at her disposal. 

Edited February 24, 2024 by alder24

[Colors]

32 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Ok, right, my mistake. If she compounds she is gaining more. But if she has only A-Bendalloy she is getting the same amount. 

Bendalloy compounding is very useful for her. She can't really eat when she fights, she has to take a break and find some food and we've seen her doing that many times in books. With Bendalloy compounding she practically has an infinite amount of Lifelight at her disposal. 

Yeah, compounding would be useful. The point I was trying to make is F-Bendalloy alone should be almost as useful by itself. The ability to store the attribute and tap it as she wants is the most useful part. Essentially every Bendalloymine she had would be a powerful battery to fuel her Lifelight based powers.

My comment was merely that Compounding made it more convenient, but she should still be able to store enough nutrition with just F-Bandalloy for most practical cases. All she would need to do is gorge everytime the opportunity presented itself.

[alder24]

2 hours ago, Colors said:

Yeah, compounding would be useful. The point I was trying to make is F-Bendalloy alone should be almost as useful by itself. The ability to store the attribute and tap it as she wants is the most useful part. Essentially every Bendalloymine she had would be a powerful battery to fuel her Lifelight based powers.

My comment was merely that Compounding made it more convenient, but she should still be able to store enough nutrition with just F-Bandalloy for most practical cases. All she would need to do is gorge everytime the opportunity presented itself.

Yes and yes.

[Quantus he/him]

We always talk about Lift becoming a Bendalloy compounder but consider making one aetherbound.  They'd have nigh-infinite water.

[Colors]

3 hours ago, Quantus said:

We always talk about Lift becoming a Bendalloy compounder but consider making one aetherbound.  They'd have nigh-infinite water.

Didn't even think about that