Who can beat a shardbearer and keep their shards

[Colors]

9 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I get that. It still stands that metalborn are not flamboyant in their mere existance. Shardplate and shardblades stand out immediately. Shardblades scream danger no matter what.  Shardplate screams tank no matter what. 

Allomancers and metalborn whisper of ordinary and mundane. 

To supposed that a shardbearer would know of their opponents abilities because the opponent knows how dangerous the shardbearer is just seems disingenuous.  

We all know that the shardbearer is a dangerous individual. Like armies unto themselves. Why should we assume they can look upon and unarmored individual and place netting to stop bugs in their visor thanks to knowing the opponent. They may be apprehensive seeing someone stepping up to fight them without shards of their own. But there is nothing about awakeners (minus an aura that nearly noone notices on Zahel for 4 books) or metalborn that would give away the fact that they may be dangerous. 

A shardbearer is a walking talking warning sign of caution and danger. 

I know, I don't disagree with your general point, just saying most Allomancers don't actually have steel sight.

Btw, could you imagine an Awakener with access to spores. Fashion these little cotton pouches like tea bags, have little pieces of string dangling off them to act like legs and command them to try and scurry into the eye holes by any means necessary.

A few crimson spores or zephyr spores and boom...their head is gone.

[hoid without wit he/him]

20 minutes ago, Colors said:

Btw, could you imagine an Awakener with access to spores. Fashion these little cotton pouches like tea bags, have little pieces of string dangling off them to act like legs and command them to try and scurry into the eye holes by any means necessary.

A few crimson spores or zephyr spores and boom...their head is gone.

that would be terrifying

as for pewter arm vs shardbearer, I think that they are close enough in power that the defining factor in a fight will be things like skill of each attacker, preparation time, previous knowledge, other people, etc

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

1 hour ago, Colors said:

I know, I don't disagree with your general point, just saying most Allomancers don't actually have steel sight.

Btw, could you imagine an Awakener with access to spores. Fashion these little cotton pouches like tea bags, have little pieces of string dangling off them to act like legs and command them to try and scurry into the eye holes by any means necessary.

A few crimson spores or zephyr spores and boom...their head is gone.

That sounds pretty legit as well a few spores carried into them that way. I wonder how big spores actually are?  

Other aether related thoughts. 

Would midnight essence be able to be turned into a swarm of insects?  I feel like the midnight essence creations have some ability to act on their own but would a swarm of midnight aether bugs released from an aetherbound be able to be directed and controlled to any workable extent? 

[Colors]

1 hour ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

That sounds pretty legit as well a few spores carried into them that way. I wonder how big spores actually are?  

Other aether related thoughts. 

Would midnight essence be able to be turned into a swarm of insects?  I feel like the midnight essence creations have some ability to act on their own but would a swarm of midnight aether bugs released from an aetherbound be able to be directed and controlled to any workable extent? 

I imagined them as large grained sand, but I could totally be off. They can't be that large if some are essentially used as gunpowder.

As for the second part I'm sure that is possible, but I think the user would have to have them operate off set commands, I doubt they'd be able control them manually.Then again, I suppose it may.be different for an Aetherbound.

Edited February 26, 2024 by Colors

[therunner he/him]

16 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

An allomancer will know something is wrong immediately when a big armored and massive blade wielding opponent shows up but the blue lines don't.

Only Coinshots, Lurchers and Mistborn would notice that. And even then, it could still be aluminum alloy.
In fact that is most likely what they would think.

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There doesn't need to be the word shard in front only plate to know that you should only target the open spots. Only Hollywood thinks someone in full plate can be treated like someone not in full plate. To assume that if someone knows they can't stab through or break plate due to more knowledge and not the fact that the shardbeaer is wearing armor is silly.

Warhammers and maces were designed to cause damage through plate, tactic which won't work here. So there are tactics opponent faced with plated foe could try which would be woefully inadequate to fighting Shardbearer.

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To compare it to the shardbearer knowing that an awakener will choose to use a swarm of insects is kind of laughable. 

But Awakener would use swarm basically only to fight Shardbearer, otherwise it is giant waste of Breath, as you'll need hundreds to get swarm of anywhere reasonable size.

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The shardbearer screams danger and hard to kill from all angles. Awakeners and mistborn are sleeper builds with very little to give away what they can and cannot do. Its totally apples to oranges thinking they should be on the same level of knowledge ahead of time. 

True, however that does not mean that Awakener and Mistborn would immediately know that the sole weakpoint is the visor (as regular plate has other openings), or that plate would cease to function after depleting Stormlight.

Nor would they immediately assume the Plate regenerates, increases strength, speed and reflexes and weight over half a ton.

And most importantly, they would not know that Shardblade is one hit kill weapon that cuts through everything but Aluminum or other Invested weapons. If they tried to block as they would be trained to, they would just die.

15 hours ago, Returned said:

So, if we're assuming enough pewter to last for the duration (which I know is pretty contrived, but for the sake of argument), the core strategy for the Misting is to not get hit, at any cost, because (as you note) being hit could be devastating. The Misting won't tire as quickly, and so won't slow or become sloppy due to fatigue, while the Shardbearer will tire at a normal rate. The Shardbearer is also on a clock no matter what they do, as the Stormlight inexorably is consumed just to keep the armor functioning.

A pewterarm's best strategy is just to wait out the Shardbearer, and if they can wait long enough (which can be defined in a few different ways) then victory becomes all but guaranteed. I don't know that I would bet on the Misting, nor would I suggest that the Shardbearer doesn't have the advantage overall, but one in every hundred attempts seems way off to me given this.

Shardbearers don't tire as fast as you assume, they fight in battles for hours. Dalinar was digging latrines through solid rock, and stopped when he basically destroyed the hammer, again after hours of work.
Which also shows that Stormlight is not drawn so fast as for this to be a risk (in fact, the only incidence of Shardplate locking up due to lack of Stormlight was in a duel, and Adolin purposefully inflicted dozens of hits to cause it).

I don't think Pewterarm can dodge Shardbearer for hours, or even dozens of minutes, they are not using Atium. So while long fight favours Pewterarm (if they have enough Pewter), it basically never will get to that stage, because they will have to dodge dozens of attack every minute for dozens of minutes, and single mistake is their loss.

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Meh. As above, the only winning play for a pewter Misting is to not get hit by a sharp edge of the Blade for a long enough period. Probably not easy, but dodging blows from a single weapon is exactly the kind of thing pewter allows even better than being filled with Stormlight does (if I remember correctly). We see quite a few people with lesser benefits than pewter grants dodging Shardblades, including Kaladin, Szeth, Dalinar, and various Fused. We're also handwaving away the quality of the Misting (Ham gets less out of pewter than Vin, who gets less out of it than Elend), but I don't know any way to account for that.

Szeth trained was years with Honorblades.
Dalinar trained for years with Shardblades and is explicitly a prodigy.
Kaladin is weird (what with the pseudo-atium effects).
Fused have literal millennia of combat experience.

Stormlight might not provide as much strenght boost as A-Pewter (though even that is debatable, as Kaladin wrestles with Stormform), but it does massively improve endurance and reflexes.

Let's look at it this way, Warform Parshendi is in many respect comparable to Pewter arm (as they have improved strength, healing, endurance and durability), and even than, dozens of Warform where unable to kill Sadeas, when he was immobilized. And then Dalinar starts murdering them by literal dozens. The only way for them to match Shardbearer is with Shards of their own.

If that does not show how far Pewterarm is outclassed, I don't know what would.

Edited February 26, 2024 by therunner

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

1 hour ago, therunner said:

Kaladin is weird (what with the pseudo-atium effects)

Do we have anything to substantiate atium? I believe he likely had some stormlight in his system without realizing it. I don't think I remember anything stating atium like future sight. Stormlight perfects you. Pewter enhances you.  I will concede with nothing to block the blade a single block or parry action would be death to a pewterarm. 

But Ham vs Kal when beating the shardbearer goes to Ham anytime. 

[therunner he/him]

On 2/26/2024 at 4:45 PM, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Do we have anything to substantiate atium? I believe he likely had some stormlight in his system without realizing it. I don't think I remember anything stating atium like future sight. Stormlight perfects you. Pewter enhances you.  I will concede with nothing to block the blade a single block or parry action would be death to a pewterarm.

It was clearly not Atium, but Kaladin in the arena does describe feelings that are oddly reminiscent of the atium, what with feeling like he could easily dodge with his eyes closed, like if he knew where the blade will strike.

On 2/26/2024 at 4:45 PM, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

But Ham vs Kal when beating the shardbearer goes to Ham anytime. 

Not really, Kaladin is among the best fighters in the Cosmere, Vin-equivalent for Stormlight.
Ham, not so much.

Kaladin defeated Shardbearer without Stormlight (or with only very miniscule amounts), feat that no one else did.
Mainly with Stormlight enhancements he fought of multiple Singer War-Pairs, i.e. Warforms who are comparable to Pewter burner.

Edited March 2, 2024 by therunner

[Duxredux he/him]

3 hours ago, therunner said:

It was clearly not Atium, but Kaladin in the arena does describe feelings that are oddly reminiscent of the atium, what with feeling like he could easily dodge with his eyes closed, like if he knew where the blade will strike.

My guess for this one is that he was intuitively and instinctively reading the air pressure currents created by the opposing Shardbearer. Kind of like Spook fighting as a Savant, but only with the air pressure sensory boost and without the heartbeat monitoring level of hearing.

As for Ham vs Kal when it comes to Shardbearers... well we see what Szeth accomplishes against squads of guards with Halfshards and Shardbearers as a lone aggressor, going against the likes of Gavilar or Adolin. Granted, a lone aggressor using abilities long forgotten over millennia that those Shardbearers' training hasn't accounted for. Ham's enhancements fit into a format that standard training can compensate for, none of this gravity manipulation and adhesion business.

 

Not saying that this is what you were implying, but I wouldn't put Warforms equivalent to a Pewterarm in difficulty as the Listeners are in their own way as easily manipulated as an army of Koloss. The Alethi army comprised of regular humans were regularly defeating the Warform Listeners through better equipment and disciplined battle formations in what seemed to be even bouts. They only fight in pairs, they're easily goaded by disfigurement to their corpses, and they preferentially will not attack the wounded, and Kaladin noted and relied heavily on that predictability.

I do think Ham is an incredible fighter in his own way, though because most of what he accomplishes is off-screen, he has a self-effacing attitude as a leader, and he's fighting alongside Vin, Kelsier, and Elend making him naturally overshadowed. He survived for a ridiculously long time in some horrible battles as a frontline general fighting massive armies of Koloss with only the weaker healing afforded to Pewter. In a funny way, Ham is used to fighting incredibly powerful tireless giant soldiers with massive swords that will kill you no matter what you're wearing if they get off a good hit, though never one who used that powerset to the full capacity. It's like watching the 3rd or 4th place runner at the Olympics waaaay behind the first place and while I know he's behind Vin, it doesn't really give me a scale as to how he would compare to non-contemporaries (trying to remember if any Radiant or Warform displays the vertical jump that Vin has when sparring with Ham). Give Kal the Surges and that's pretty unfair, but I'm not sure who would win between a Pewter loaded Ham and a 2nd Ideal Kaladin without surges.

Basically... Ham vs Kaladin pre-Shards doesn't look like an apples to apples comparison to me. They weren't afforded the same opportunities and they didn't fight in similar battles. I'd leave that one to Brandon.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

24 minutes ago, Duxredux said:

My guess for this one is that he was intuitively and instinctively reading the air pressure currents created by the opposing Shardbearer. Kind of like Spook fighting as a Savant, but only with the air pressure sensory boost and without the heartbeat monitoring level of hearing.

As for Ham vs Kal when it comes to Shardbearers... well we see what Szeth accomplishes against squads of guards with Halfshards and Shardbearers as a lone aggressor, going against the likes of Gavilar or Adolin. Granted, a lone aggressor using abilities long forgotten over millennia that those Shardbearers' training hasn't accounted for. Ham's enhancements fit into a format that standard training can compensate for, none of this gravity manipulation and adhesion business.

 

Not saying that this is what you were implying, but I wouldn't put Warforms equivalent to a Pewterarm in difficulty as the Listeners are in their own way as easily manipulated as an army of Koloss. The Alethi army comprised of regular humans were regularly defeating the Warform Listeners through better equipment and disciplined battle formations in what seemed to be even bouts. They only fight in pairs, they're easily goaded by disfigurement to their corpses, and they preferentially will not attack the wounded, and Kaladin noted and relied heavily on that predictability.

I do think Ham is an incredible fighter in his own way, though because most of what he accomplishes is off-screen, he has a self-effacing attitude as a leader, and he's fighting alongside Vin, Kelsier, and Elend making him naturally overshadowed. He survived for a ridiculously long time in some horrible battles as a frontline general fighting massive armies of Koloss with only the weaker healing afforded to Pewter. In a funny way, Ham is used to fighting incredibly powerful tireless giant soldiers with massive swords that will kill you no matter what you're wearing if they get off a good hit, though never one who used that powerset to the full capacity. It's like watching the 3rd or 4th place runner at the Olympics waaaay behind the first place and while I know he's behind Vin, it doesn't really give me a scale as to how he would compare to non-contemporaries (trying to remember if any Radiant or Warform displays the vertical jump that Vin has when sparring with Ham). Give Kal the Surges and that's pretty unfair, but I'm not sure who would win between a Pewter loaded Ham and a 2nd Ideal Kaladin without surges.

Basically... Ham vs Kaladin pre-Shards doesn't look like an apples to apples comparison to me. They weren't afforded the same opportunities and they didn't fight in similar battles. I'd leave that one to Brandon.

I like that you point out that Ham was front lines against Koloss armies. One hit and you are dead regardless of if it is a shardblade or a koloss blade. 

I know that shardbearers may be quicker and even stronger than Koloss but a 12 foot koloss swinging a koloss blade is probably at an even better reach advantage than a shardbearer as well. And Ham had to dance between those reach advantages while facing 1 hit kills without flying or atium or even some 6th sense telling him what was coming. 

I think this is a fair estimation of what it means to say that pewter has enhanced reactionspeed as well.

Take that and pair it with any kind of 6th sense and it would be off the charts. 

 

5 hours ago, therunner said:

It was clearly not Atium, but Kaladin in the arena does describe feelings that are oddly reminiscent of the atium, what with feeling like he could easily dodge with his eyes closed, like if he knew where the blade will strike.

Not really, Kaladin is among the best fighters in the Cosmere, Vin-equivalent for Stormlight.
Ham, not so much.

Kaladin defeated Shardbearer without Stormlight (or with only very miniscule amounts), feat that no one else did.
Mainly with Stormlight enhancements he fought of multiple Singer War-Pairs, i.e. Warforms who are comparable to Pewter burner.

I think that Kaladin in the area at the 2nd oath and Kaladin vs a shardbearer years earlier before Syl even proved to be more than a pesky windspren are two very different people with very different skill sets. 

If Kal was able to do it before he knew about syl and any access to stormlight I think an enhanced Ham would do fine. 

We will just have to agree to disagree on that one I think. Kaladin may have been using stormlight in tiny amounts at that time but I don't think he was dancing around that blade effortlessly.