Thoughts after finishing Shadows of Self

[Ale the Metallic Conjurer he/him]

I'm hurt and confused. And I'm not sure how to feel, and I love it for that. Shadows of Self is completely different than its preceding book. It is different from even the Mistborn trilogy. There are themes of the stagnation of political systems, religious tension, the ethics and morals of what line God should, could, might have on interfering with the lives of his creations. After finishing off the book, I genuinely had no idea what to think about Harmony, Trell's puppeteering, Bleeder's campaign, or the state of Elendel.

Something that annoyed me about Era 2's books off the bat was the noble system. There's no state sponsored murder or rape, and the nobles are more like businessmen. But it still felt like nothing changed over the last 340 years. I kept thinking... wow, this is what Kelsier died for?! This is what Vin and Elend fought to protect?! I started off hating everyone - Harmony, the Senate, constables, Wax, even Spook - for not erasing the noble system. But while reading the book I kept thinking about Sazed's limitations due to wielding the Shard of Harmony, his stance on free will, his subtle maneuvering of Wax and Marasi... and kept thinking about real life. I came to the realization that being in the role of God comes with a lot of nuance on guiding mortals. I connected the stagnation of Elendel back to the history of the US... how even though centuries has passed, many abhorrent systems are masked by seemingly more human systems. Governments are still being controlled by nobles and aristocrats, just in a different flavor. Policing has so many issues it could take 1000 years to solve.

Even after finishing the book, I still think the noble system should've been completely erased. But now I'm thinking if that would've fundamentally changed things. The US doesn't have monarchs, nobles, slave plantations, or aristocrats. But corporations, billionaires, politicians, and the upper class get away with a lot, they find ways to obtain power and avoid accountability. Would Harmony be right if he gave the divine mandate of "I DECREE NO NOBLES FOR ALL OF TIME!" At that point is free will a choice?

I started off blaming Harmony for not making a democratic world with no nobles. Ended off having… weird feelings about him. Like... MeLann brings up a great point about the kandra impersonating witnesses to testify against people. If Harmony allowed that, that could be a dangerous precedent.

But then there's Bleeder. Bleeder is easily my favorite antagonist in the series. She's incredibly competent, her body horror is gruesome horrific, and her climax is depressingly tragic. May she rest in the Beyond. Poor Wax. This is the thing that has me feeling weird about Harmony. This hurts cuz of Sazed. storm Sazed. storm Sazed. I knew Harmony would’ve become a Chessmaster, but not like this. Sazed isn’t supposed to manipulate people. Sazed isn’t supposed to cause trauma to people

But Sazed is, unfortunately, the Hero of Ages. Harmony seems to be foreseeing a great disaster caused by Trell.  I’m pretty sure he’s trying to thread towards a future possibility that will save Scadrial from this disaster. He must think about the future of the entire world. It hurts that he moved Wax this way, but would there really have been any difference if he left Wax completely alone? The Set - puppets of a Shard of Adonalsium - would've subtly caused turmoil on Elendel. What if he told Wax he was hunting Lessie? TenSoon said it himself. Harmony saw the future, saw that Wax wouldn't go through with it. Bleeder - another puppet of a Shard - would've succeeded in her goals. Sure he could've maneuvered someone else, but it opens a new can of worms!

I love the hints of Trell being a far scarier antagonist than it appears. I love the advancements and possibilities of Hemalurgy Trell is responsible for. Shadows of Self does a far better job than The Hero of Ages presenting gray morality in the motives and plans of gods. It also does a far better job at presenting a smart and clever antagonistic deity. I think with the conflict between Ruin and Preservation, Sanderson wrote many things that made Ruin appear too much like "the bad guy." He can say Preservation has a dark side, but we never saw it. The one reprehensible thing Preservation could've been completely responsible for - the Deepness **killing** people - ended up being the result of his frayed mind. He could've been solely responsible for the Deepness covering the Sun and killing plants, but that ended up being caused by Ruin. Ruin spoke with too much malice and joy of killing all life and destroying everything. Apart from his attributes being fundamental aspects of life and the Universe, there was no possible way I could've seen his stance as having any sort of value. Sanderson also wrote too many things that made Ruin's planning so far behind Preservation's. Preservation felt like a Xanatosian genius even on his deathbed. Ruin was a petulant child. Ruin wasn't kind, or patient, or particularly clever, or have long-spanning schemes when Sanderson presented him in the spotlight. Don't even get me started on his futuresight lmao. And tbh I don’t get why Sanderson wrote a being of death and destruction as the opposite of stasis and stability. Is he trying to say in life and creation, everything either stays the same or everything dies?

I know that wasn’t his intent, but it came across that way. It’s haphazard in retrospect, and I don’t understand why that was the direction after the beauty of Kelsier’s rebellion. I still love the concept of Ruin and Preservation’s conflict, but I think it could’ve been much more developed. More nuanced. Ruin could’ve been far more of a Chessmaster or represented a different concept.

With Harmony and Trell... I'm not as certain who's the good or bad guy. And so far, Trell's schemes are genuinely complex, layered, and terrifying. Even the Set are scary.

Marasi grew a lot, as expected. Wayne didn't grow but he was still so much fun. Love the new dynamic of Wayne and MeLaan, who's also pretty great. ARADEL IS A MAN!!!

There wasn't much of Steris this book. But she vastly improved in such a short time! Feels like she hides a lot but is actually a warm person. Look at the ending

Well done, Sanderson. I give Shadows of Self ️️️️️/5.

[Returned]

1 hour ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said:

And tbh I don’t get why Sanderson wrote a being of death and destruction as the opposite of stasis and stability. Is he trying to say in life and creation, everything either stays the same or everything dies?

He's talked a bit about some things that touch on this, though I don't want to throw anything that might be spoiler-y into your thread. Your observation on the juxtaposition of Preservation and Ruin is a good one.

I also really like Bleeder as a villain, and I thought that her motivations and internal crises were interesting and well thought-out. That those elements were filtered through the lens of her madness was affectingly tragic but also emphasized how strongly she felt about the core pieces of her identity she retained. I feel like it's rare for a villain to be so well drawn.

I had some similar feelings about the nobility in SoS, though not quite as strongly as you. What struck me was how detached the Metallic Arts became from not just nobility but also from wealth and power. Especially with the Terris receding from society as they did. I also like Steris' turn in this book compared with AoL. Thanks for sharing your impressions, I liked reading them!

[Treamayne]

1 hour ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said:

I'm hurt and confused. And I'm not sure how to feel, and I love it for that.

Glad you enjoyed it (though I'm not sure why you don;t just have 1 "Era 2" thread and put all the reactions in one spot)

1 hour ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said:

I think with the conflict between Ruin and Preservation,

<snip>

And tbh I don’t get why Sanderson wrote a being of death and destruction as the opposite of stasis and stability.

Kep in mind that, yes, there was some DEM in how Ruin was handled in HoA; but there were things that needed to be foreshadowed there - not just for Mistborn Era 2, but for the Cosmere overall. Ruin was a Chessmaster - it was shown (and foreshadowed) in books 1 and 2 very well (and quite the hidden reread bonus). 

Spoilerish Cosmere

Spoiler

Ati, however, was deeply warped by his Shard's intent and that needed to be shown so that things in Stormlight Archive and other stories would have context. So, while trapped, he was patient and cunning and scary in his manipulations (see below). Once free he acted as if he had already won, he stopped playing the long game - because Ruin - cannot play the long game when Entropy is afoot. Ruin "knew" the planet was about to end and could not see passed his own assumptions to consider other possibilities.

Spoiler

Much is discussed about how Ruin changed Sazed's copy of Kwaan's plate. But if you pay attention in Books 1 and 3, you can notice:

• Alendi was Spiked
• Alendi's logbook was (likely) also changed like Kwaan's plate rubbings
  • Including implying that Alendi's Spike was an earring - and that the Hero of Ages was supposed to have one (like Vin)
  • Which also throws doubt on Alendi's passages about being attacked by the mist spirit - probably never happened (or like with Elend, was Ruin impersonating Leras' version)
• There are even hints that Ruin was manipulating the Keepers (and Worldbingers in Alendi's time) because, while they were not Hemalurgic Spikes, they each did have piercings. Many many piercings. And as Spook's note mentions "The smallest bit can taint a man" 

It's just that Ruin's ability to use Entropy to change things and manipulate people is about manipulating the past and present - not preparing for the future. 

1 hour ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said:

He can say Preservation has a dark side, but we never saw it.

RAFO in Mistborn: Secret History (which has spoilers for Bands of Mourning)

[Thaidakar the Ghostblood he/him]

36 minutes ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said:

I'm hurt and confused. And I'm not sure how to feel, and I love it for that. Shadows of Self is completely different than its preceding book. It is different from even the Mistborn trilogy. There are themes of the stagnation of political systems, religious tension, the ethics and morals of what line God should, could, might have on interfering with the lives of his creations. After finishing off the book, I genuinely had no idea what to think about Harmony, Trell's puppeteering, Bleeder's campaign, or the state of Elendel.

Something that annoyed me about Era 2's books off the bat was the noble system. There's no state sponsored murder or rape, and the nobles are more like businessmen. But it still felt like nothing changed over the last 340 years. I kept thinking... wow, this is what Kelsier died for?! This is what Vin and Elend fought to protect?! I started off hating everyone - Harmony, the Senate, constables, Wax, even Spook - for not erasing the noble system. But while reading the book I kept thinking about Sazed's limitations due to wielding the Shard of Harmony, his stance on free will, his subtle maneuvering of Wax and Marasi... and kept thinking about real life. I came to the realization that being in the role of God comes with a lot of nuance on guiding mortals. I connected the stagnation of Elendel back to the history of the US... how even though centuries has passed, many abhorrent systems are masked by seemingly more human systems. Governments are still being controlled by nobles and aristocrats, just in a different flavor. Policing has so many issues it could take 1000 years to solve.

Even after finishing the book, I still think the noble system should've been completely erased. But now I'm thinking if that would've fundamentally changed things. The US doesn't have monarchs, nobles, slave plantations, or aristocrats. But corporations, billionaires, politicians, and the upper class get away with a lot, they find ways to obtain power and avoid accountability. Would Harmony be right if he gave the divine mandate of "I DECREE NO NOBLES FOR ALL OF TIME!" At that point is free will a choice?

I started off blaming Harmony for not making a democratic world with no nobles. Ended off having… weird feelings about him. Like... MeLann brings up a great point about the kandra impersonating witnesses to testify against people. If Harmony allowed that, that could be a dangerous precedent.

But then there's Bleeder. Bleeder is easily my favorite antagonist in the series. She's incredibly competent, her body horror is gruesome horrific, and her climax is depressingly tragic. May she rest in the Beyond. Poor Wax. This is the thing that has me feeling weird about Harmony. This hurts cuz of Sazed. storm Sazed. storm Sazed. I knew Harmony would’ve become a Chessmaster, but not like this. Sazed isn’t supposed to manipulate people. Sazed isn’t supposed to cause trauma to people

But Sazed is, unfortunately, the Hero of Ages. Harmony seems to be foreseeing a great disaster caused by Trell.  I’m pretty sure he’s trying to thread towards a future possibility that will save Scadrial from this disaster. He must think about the future of the entire world. It hurts that he moved Wax this way, but would there really have been any difference if he left Wax completely alone? The Set - puppets of a Shard of Adonalsium - would've subtly caused turmoil on Elendel. What if he told Wax he was hunting Lessie? TenSoon said it himself. Harmony saw the future, saw that Wax wouldn't go through with it. Bleeder - another puppet of a Shard - would've succeeded in her goals. Sure he could've maneuvered someone else, but it opens a new can of worms!

I love the hints of Trell being a far scarier antagonist than it appears. I love the advancements and possibilities of Hemalurgy Trell is responsible for. Shadows of Self does a far better job than The Hero of Ages presenting gray morality in the motives and plans of gods. It also does a far better job at presenting a smart and clever antagonistic deity. I think with the conflict between Ruin and Preservation, Sanderson wrote many things that made Ruin appear too much like "the bad guy." He can say Preservation has a dark side, but we never saw it. The one reprehensible thing Preservation could've been completely responsible for - the Deepness **killing** people - ended up being the result of his frayed mind. He could've been solely responsible for the Deepness covering the Sun and killing plants, but that ended up being caused by Ruin. Ruin spoke with too much malice and joy of killing all life and destroying everything. Apart from his attributes being fundamental aspects of life and the Universe, there was no possible way I could've seen his stance as having any sort of value. Sanderson also wrote too many things that made Ruin's planning so far behind Preservation's. Preservation felt like a Xanatosian genius even on his deathbed. Ruin was a petulant child. Ruin wasn't kind, or patient, or particularly clever, or have long-spanning schemes when Sanderson presented him in the spotlight. Don't even get me started on his futuresight lmao. And tbh I don’t get why Sanderson wrote a being of death and destruction as the opposite of stasis and stability. Is he trying to say in life and creation, everything either stays the same or everything dies?

I know that wasn’t his intent, but it came across that way. It’s haphazard in retrospect, and I don’t understand why that was the direction after the beauty of Kelsier’s rebellion. I still love the concept of Ruin and Preservation’s conflict, but I think it could’ve been much more developed. More nuanced. Ruin could’ve been far more of a Chessmaster or represented a different concept.

With Harmony and Trell... I'm not as certain who's the good or bad guy. And so far, Trell's schemes are genuinely complex, layered, and terrifying. Even the Set are scary.

Marasi grew a lot, as expected. Wayne didn't grow but he was still so much fun. Love the new dynamic of Wayne and MeLaan, who's also pretty great. ARADEL IS A MAN!!!

There wasn't much of Steris this book. But she vastly improved in such a short time! Feels like she hides a lot but is actually a warm person. Look at the ending

Well done, Sanderson. I give Shadows of Self ️️️️️/5.

YES!

Shadows of Self is up in my top three books by Brandon with Oathbringer and the Final Empire. I adore Shadows of Self. Wax and Lessie was basically the whole reason why I was absolutely hyped into Bands and TLM. Love every part of this book (except some of the jokes, but whatever)

I'm glad someone else is getting to know Steris! We'll get you to join the WE LOVE STERIS club soon enough...