Replacements for Powers

[Trusk'our]

With another Dragonsteel convention, there are some new WoB, many of which have some very interesting implications.

For instance, this one caught my attention:

Spoiler

Questioner

If you were divesting yourself of all Identity, and then tapped a massive amount of Connection and Investiture, would you be able to instantly have access to, say, the Surges on Roshar without oaths?

Brandon Sanderson

So, you wanna get the Surges without oaths? What you're saying is you divest yourself of Identity, you highly Invest yourself... You're still going to need something that's gonna tell that Investiture what to be and how to manifest in yourself. And so if it's the right Intent then maybe, right? 'Cause you can have both Identity and Intent on Investiture and you can unkey it to one or the other or both. And so that might be... But the thing is, you're still gonna have to know... This is a step toward getting what you want, but there's still gotta be something that tells it... "You're holding a massive amount of Investiture, what do I do with this? Do I teleport you across the Cosmere to another planet? What do I do with it?" And you're gonna have to have something to give structure to that Investiture. You're missing a step.

So here's a couple hypotheses that spawned from this:

1. Let's say Wax were to have his Allomancy stolen by the Set with a Hemalurgic spike. Harmony doesn't like that his Sword is now weakened, so has Marsh create an Unsealed Duraluminmind that holds Connection to Harmony and his Mists, then gives it to Wax so he can Tap the Connection and at least temporarily restore his Allomancy (yes, F-gold via Hemalurgy or possibly Unsealed Goldmind would be better, but this is a hypothetical), as he is quite familiar with the power; his soul has become permeated with its essence, and his Cognitive aspect remembers using it clearly. Basically, would you think this is enough for him to re-access his lost power, as he still remembers the input to command the Investiture and as a Scadrien he probably wouldn't have an Identity issue?

2. Here's another one to stretch the limits a bit more. What if a well-practiced Allomancer/Feruchemist were to store memories of them using their power(s) in an Unsealed Coppermind and they gave it to another Scadrien, though on that doesn't naturally have powers. That non-Metalborn then Taps those memories and draws on some Unkeyed Investiture. Do they have the ability to direct that Investiture in a similar fashion to the powers of person whose memories they Tapped?

3. If a Scadrien were to Tap lots of Connection to Scadrial's land, Harmony, or Preservation (might be a little interchangeable, as they Connect to each other so much) via Duralumin Compounding, could they draw in the Mists when in them to act in a similar fashion the Unkeyed Dor? If Identity to Harmony is still somehow an issue, then Blank Identity as well while you're at it.

[alder24]

7 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

1. Let's say Wax were to have his Allomancy stolen by the Set with a Hemalurgic spike. Harmony doesn't like that his Sword is now weakened, so has Marsh create an Unsealed Duraluminmind that holds Connection to Harmony and his Mists, then gives it to Wax so he can Tap the Connection and at least temporarily restore his Allomancy (yes, F-gold via Hemalurgy or possibly Unsealed Goldmind would be better, but this is a hypothetical), as he is quite familiar with the power; his soul has become permeated with its essence, and his Cognitive aspect remembers using it clearly. Basically, would you think this is enough for him to re-access his lost power, as he still remembers the input to command the Investiture and as a Scadrien he probably wouldn't have an Identity issue?

I think because Wax still has his Identity it would be enough to access his powers. Why? Because Allomancy is part of his Spiritual Ideal and that is connected to his Identity. If he were to blank Identity he probably won't be able to do that. 

But it's really hard to say what Brandon had in mind with this additional step.

8 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

2. Here's another one to stretch the limits a bit more. What if a well-practiced Allomancer/Feruchemist were to store memories of them using their power(s) in an Unsealed Coppermind and they gave it to another Scadrien, though on that doesn't naturally have powers. That non-Metalborn then Taps those memories and draws on some Unkeyed Investiture. Do they have the ability to direct that Investiture in a similar fashion to the powers of person whose memories they Tapped?

No. It's no different than Intent which by WoB is not enough.

8 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

3. If a Scadrien were to Tap lots of Connection to Scadrial's land, Harmony, or Preservation (might be a little interchangeable, as they Connect to each other so much) via Duralumin Compounding, could they draw in the Mists when in them to act in a similar fashion the Unkeyed Dor? If Identity to Harmony is still somehow an issue, then Blank Identity as well while you're at it.

Possibly. We theorize that enough Connection to Harmony can allow you to draw in the Mists. But in the average Scadrain that won't do anything, as per WoB they lack something to tell the Mists what to do.

 

None of your proposed situations are analogous to the one in the WoB - all three of yours still have Identity attached to them. I think the simplest thing that one can do to access powers in the situation presented in the WoB, with Blanked Identity and all, is to hum the tone of the power you want to use. Hum the Soulcasting tone, hum the Steelpushing tone etc. This will tell the power what to do, and Intent will tell it how to do it - push off the coin, not off everything around you.

It was said in WoK that humming helps during Soulcasting, Venli hums to the combined tone of Odium and Cultivation when she was Stoneshaping and we know that all pulses detected by A-bronze are different from each other and a Seeker can distinguish between different Surges as well. Every time you're using an invested power you are resonating with a very specific tone - hum this and it will tell investiture what to do.

[Duxredux]

Here's a WoB that may be relevant. It's the complexity of using an Atium spike to harvest power from a Mistborn. 

Spoiler

Questioner

My question was about Hemalurgy. There was a disagreement on the last Shardcast. When spiking a Mistborn to charge a Hemalurgic spike, does it matter how the Mistborn is killed or is what power is stolen based only on the metal?

Brandon Sanderson

So you want to place the spike in a specific place.

Questioner

In the donor. In the recipient, not the donor.

Brandon Sanderson

In the recipient. And you want to use the specific metal and so basically if you aren't precise about how you spike, you risk taking the wrong thing within the same family. Some of those, that's not as big a deal, but for some it is kind of a big deal. And so you want to be very precise, you'll get something, but if you're not placing the spike in the right place and going into the right place, then you risk it.

Questioner

You risk stealing the wrong thing.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah. Now if you're going off of somebody who's not a Mistborn, you can be a little more flexible, but you still have the danger that you're not going to end up stealing the power, you're going to steal something else. So, precision is advisable, how about that?

Questioner

Yeah. Because the question was kind of specifically about, like, we know that atium spikes can kill-- can steal pretty much any power.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. You want to be super precise with your atium spike.

Questioner

So, part of the question was like, exactly, if you just killed a Mistborn, you stab a Mistborn in the heart with an atium spike, and you're not placing it immediately--

Brandon Sanderson

What do you end up with? You are rolling the dice, let's say. Not as big a roll of the dice as you might think, but you still are. You might not get what you want.

Questioner

And then when you place the spike on the recipient, if you like tore that spike out again and put it in someone else, you're not going to be able to get more than one power out of it?

Brandon Sanderson

No. No, and if you place the spike in the wrong place, then you're going to end up with interference and things like this where the spike might just not work the way you want it to. Taking a spike and putting it in the wrong place in someone is not going to make them have a different power, in other words.

Idaho Falls signing (Dec. 29, 2018)

I suspect it comes down to how you have modified and properly prepared the soul of the person receiving the powers. There's a distinction from getting an Invested effect like you could from a Fabrial and granting yourself Invested abilities. What you're describing is more or less what Shai did when she stamped herself with her Elantrian Essence Mark and chugged Unkeyed Dor. In the context of Hemalurgy, the placement of the spike on the Spiritweb of the recipient, particularly with the weird case of using an Atium spike on a Mistborn, it seems like the location on the Spiritweb can inform or otherwise train the Investiture within the spike what power it needs to manifest as. In other words, you need to have tell the Investiture not only what kind of effect to have, but specifically what kind of change needs to be made to the Spiritweb in order to grant powers. I don't think simply humming a tune will work, the detail of the pulses of Invested arts is so intricate that a sufficiently skilled Seeker can differentiate the emotions a Soother is targeting. Intent absolutely is necessary, but Intent alone won't let you hum with that degree of precision.  

 

3 hours ago, alder24 said:

None of your proposed situations are analogous to the one in the WoB - all three of yours still have Identity attached to them. I think the simplest thing that one can do to access powers in the situation presented in the WoB, with Blanked Identity and all, is to hum the tone of the power you want to use. Hum the Soulcasting tone, hum the Steelpushing tone etc. This will tell the power what to do, and Intent will tell it how to do it - push off the coin, not off everything around you.

We see something very similar to this with the gardens that Rlain setup in Urithiru. Here's the question though, was it simply the Intent and the proper Rhythm that accelerated plant growth or did the rhythm attract the lifespren that utilized the Stormlight to allow the plants to grow faster? I'm guessing the second because simply having the proper rhythm to hum and a standing in a Highstorm full of Stormlight won't allow a Singer to transform into another form, they need the spren as well. 

There's also whole skillsets that definitely would not benefit from the person having to be singing or humming constantly. A-Pewter, you would have to be humming or chanting the whole time you're fighting. It's really hard to do heavy exercise and sing at the same time. Possible, but hard. Can you imagine if Vin had to hum a fast tempo the entire sprint across the central dominance? What about using A-Tin hoping to be an unobtrusive spy? What if you need to Surgebind underwater? What if you really want to use two powers simultaneously? Cool idea, maybe useful in specific scenarios, definitely not a final solution.

[alder24]

30 minutes ago, Duxredux said:

In the context of Hemalurgy, the placement of the spike on the Spiritweb of the recipient, particularly with the weird case of using an Atium spike on a Mistborn, it seems like the location on the Spiritweb can inform or otherwise train the Investiture within the spike what power it needs to manifest as.

That's NOT what the WoB is saying. What you steal is decided when you spike a Donor and since then the power in the spike is fixed. The wrong location in a recipient produces some interference, but doesn't change what the spike has inside (you should have highlighted the very last "questioner" question). The location is super important when stealing from a donor: "if you aren't precise about how you spike, you risk taking the wrong thing within the same family."

Hemalurgy is hot wiring powers into your soul. If you place your spike incorrectly in a recipient, it means you've connected the cables wrongly: "Taking a spike and putting it in the wrong place in someone is not going to make them have a different power." What spikes holds is soley decided when you charge a spike.

45 minutes ago, Duxredux said:

What you're describing is more or less what Shai did when she stamped herself with her Elantrian Essence Mark and chugged Unkeyed Dor.

I disagree. Shai provided investiture with information about what it has to do, which was written on her soulstamps. It's part of her invested art. 

48 minutes ago, Duxredux said:

We see something very similar to this with the gardens that Rlain setup in Urithiru. Here's the question though, was it simply the Intent and the proper Rhythm that accelerated plant growth or did the rhythm attract the lifespren that utilized the Stormlight to allow the plants to grow faster?

The latter, but this situation is not comparable to the one proposed in the WoB. We're talking about someone with a massive amount of investiture, a proper and strong Connection and no identity at all. None of those requirements are met in this example, but Brandon clearly states that the questioner is close to getting what he wants but needs one additional step to tell investiture what to do. The question is how do you replace the spren who tells the power what to do, how do you replace metals in Allomancy that tells the power what to do, all without being an Allomancer or being bonded in the first place? Maybe it's humming, maybe it's a Command, or maybe something else, but you need to make a "keyhole" for this investiture somehow. How to turn static investiture into kinetic?

58 minutes ago, Duxredux said:

There's also whole skillsets that definitely would not benefit from the person having to be singing or humming constantly. A-Pewter, you would have to be humming or chanting the whole time you're fighting. It's really hard to do heavy exercise and sing at the same time. Possible, but hard. Can you imagine if Vin had to hum a fast tempo the entire sprint across the central dominance? What about using A-Tin hoping to be an unobtrusive spy? What if you need to Surgebind underwater? What if you really want to use two powers simultaneously? Cool idea, maybe useful in specific scenarios, definitely not a final solution.

I've never even imagined this question as a way of finding a practical solution that will be used in the future, more like a way of understanding the magic system - it requires you to hold a massive amount of investiture and Connection while being Blanked. That's not practical, that's not probable to happen in the first place.