[SA5] Ishar is StormFaker theory + Zellion Evidence + Dawnshard Theory

[Kesamijr]

Okay, so I was reading the theorizing in general cosmere about how in the Gavilar prologue the Stormfather felt very different. I saw a lot of people saying it’s Ishar, something I agree with. This is gonna move along a few lines related to that, but starting with the point that made me post it here:

1) that reminds me of how Zellion talked about how his adherence to his oaths kept his Torment at bay at least somewhat. We know all Heralds are crazy, and one of the counterpoints to the “StormFaker is Ishar” theory was: ‘he’s far too lucid to be Ishar.’ But we know some of the Heralds insanity is magical in nature, which sounds, to me, not unlike a Torment. We know vast amounts of investiture (like a Radiant sweating an oath) and oaths, help Ishar overcome his insanity, again something reminiscent of Zellion’s Torment. He can summon his blade immediately after being in the sun, and could get past his Torment while following the oaths. Brandon said Sunlit Man had SA5 spoilers. My pitch is: StormFaker was Ishar, he was potentially bonded to the Stormfather (who said he “has experience with” Ishar) and/or he used his pre existing Bondsmith powers to highjack Gavilar/the Storm father’s budding connection and manipulate Gavilar. (We see that Dalinar can pull people into visions, I’m absolutely sure Ishar can do the same lolol). He could do all of this because HE was a Bondsmith/had sworn Bondsmith oaths, which ended after Chana (probably) and Gavilar died and the Stormfather decided to sever their bond, leading to his descent into full, unmitigated insanity which coincidentally started almost immediately after those two events. He also goes to get his sword right after these events, presumably because he wants his powers back, having lost them with his lost bond to SF.
 

2) that theory still works without Ishar being bonded to the Stormfather, especially because that could be a leap. (I think that the Stormfather said there hadn’t been a Bondsmith in centuries.) The other part of it though, hinges on Ishar having a Torment. All the Heralds are nuts, but it seems to ME like he’s extra nuts. And something like the Oathpact seems like the type of thing that could be created with Dawnshard level power. And we know the Dawnshards were both on Ashyn and all over Roshar, as is Ishar. So the second part of the theory is: Ishar’s insanity is part of/worsened by his Torment. Either because he’s a Herald or he held a dawnshard or both, he has a Torment which he can only overcome while a) following Radiant Oaths or b) around someone ELSE following radiant oaths or maybe c) around a TON of Investiture but that seems less likely cuz he’s nuts right by a perpendicularity. 
 

3) more evidence for Ishar/SF bond I think is how easily Ishar (almost) takes the bond from Dalinar. He seems to know the connection well, as with the connection to Odium. We know that he now curses the Stormfather and that the Stormfather can still see him, something I’d argue is because of their potentially stronger connection now. I think it explains why the Stormfather is so jaded when it comes to trusting Dalinar as well. He’s just had a bad experience.
 

That was a lot, so thank you if you read it, but if not:

 

TL;DR: Ishar is the StormFaker cuz he bonded with the Stormfather and manipulated Gavilar. He held a Dawnshard at one point and now has a Torment. The SF bond suppressed the effects of his Torment, but losing the bond caused him to go crazy(er) after the Stormfather ended their bond post-Gavilar/Chana death.

 

Tear apart my theory, provide feedback, lmk what you think!!:)

[alder24]

Yeah, no, I'm still a firm denier of the Stormfaker theory and nothing that I've read ever since convinced me it's true. My two main problems are still unresolved:

1. Ishar can't feel a Herald returning to Braize as evident by the Prelude to SA,
2. Ishar acquired his Honorblade in between OB and RoW, thus long after Gavilar's assassination.

But let's see what you have to say.

9 hours ago, Kesamijr said:

1) that reminds me of how Zellion talked about how his adherence to his oaths kept his Torment at bay at least somewhat. We know all Heralds are crazy, and one of the counterpoints to the “StormFaker is Ishar” theory was: ‘he’s far too lucid to be Ishar.’ But we know some of the Heralds insanity is magical in nature, which sounds, to me, not unlike a Torment. We know vast amounts of investiture (like a Radiant sweating an oath) and oaths, help Ishar overcome his insanity, again something reminiscent of Zellion’s Torment.

No, those two things are completely different. The Dawnshard Torment is not the same as the Cognitive Shadow's madness, actually the second one still affects former Dawnshards like Hoid, but Hoid is smart and crafty enough to avoid this by using Breaths to store his memory. The Dawnshard Torment is a leftover residue that binds a person and restricts his actions, while the Cognitive Shadow's madness is the result of strains placed upon a human soul that wasn't built to last that long - their soul is just worn out. 

Spoiler

Questioner

Why or how are the Heralds the only ones we've seen so far that are affected by magical maladies due to either their high Investiture or long lives?

Brandon Sanderson

I would argue the Fused are having the same situation, so they're not the only ones. The why and how... there's a whole host of things going on here. Like a lot of physical and mental illness, it's not one thing or the other. But it is a compound of other things.

One is going so long without certain protections that you kind of need to take. The human being's soul might be immortal, depending on your argument in the cosmere. (That's really up to you.) But they certainly aren't meant for thousands of years of existence, the same way that our bodies aren't. There's some of that.

There's some of the things they've been through. Like, legit trauma; this is not all simply a magical ailment. You've got people with PTSD, layers of PTSD on top of layers of PTSD, for thousands of years, bearing things that no human being without their level of Investiture would even be able to bear. You've got that manifestation, you've got their own sense of guilt.

And these things are all just kind of overlapping together with the fact they've been alive for so, so very long. And a lot of the people that you've seen otherwise have not been alive nearly... orders of magnitude more for the Heralds. The only people you've seen that are that old are: some of the dragons, Hoid, and Vessels of various Shards. And you're basically at that group. And this is a group who knows what they're doing. Either they were built like the dragons, this is part of their innate nature, that they are functionally immortal. Or you are getting the Shards. Or you're getting people that are 300 years old, which is a very different thing, cosmere-wise, than having lived for thousands and thousands of years, part of it being torture.

Dragonsteel 2023 (Nov. 21, 2023)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

Memory is tied to some level or portion of Spiritual Identity, or else Feruchemists would not be able to store it. So, Hoid lost memories at the end of Rhythm of War in his exchange with Odium. Would that mean part of his soul was stolen and then absorbed into Odium, and if so, what is stopping Odium from doing that with all of his enemies?

Brandon Sanderson

Basically, what Odium split off is stuff that Hoid is storing in excess Investiture. (Basically, it was Breaths, in Hoid’s case.) And this sort of thing, where this extra memory… One of the reasons that Hoid is able to function better than, perhaps, some other very long-lived individuals is: he has found out how to keep some of this Identity in, shall we say, SD cards made of Investiture. Imagine that sort of thing. So what Odium was stealing from Hoid was straight out of an SD card. Which means that it’s not nearly as deeply ripping into someone’s soul, and it is also not nearly as noticeable.

But the other thing is: Hoid is directly in violation of certain agreements that have been made, which therefore exposes him to… He is lacking protections. As you’ll notice in the end of Book Three, where he’s like, “I need to be careful, because I am in violation.”

And so, there’s a couple things going on here. Number one, much more easy to access those memories. Number two, Hoid’s in direct violation and under no protections of any sorts of agreements and things like this.

Dragonsteel 2022 (Nov. 14, 2022)

KoWT Jasnah reading:

Spoiler

Quote

“I’ve lived a long time, Jasnah. A long, long time. Longer than any mortal’s memories can track, so I must use other means to maintain myself. I store memories in something called Breath: an easily accessible, if costly, form of Investiture that a person can adopt and, with training, use to expand one’s soul and memory."

 

 

9 hours ago, Kesamijr said:

Brandon said Sunlit Man had SA5 spoilers.

That's most likely about Sigzil abandoning Windrunners Order because he thinks honor is a sham now.

9 hours ago, Kesamijr said:

He could do all of this because HE was a Bondsmith/had sworn Bondsmith oaths, which ended after Chana (probably) and Gavilar died and the Stormfather decided to sever their bond, leading to his descent into full, unmitigated insanity which coincidentally started almost immediately after those two events. He also goes to get his sword right after these events, presumably because he wants his powers back, having lost them with his lost bond to SF.

That explains him getting his powers back, but that's highly unlikely because the Stormfather was in total opposition to getting himself bound and killed. He wouldn't allow himself to get bound, especially to a person whom he doesn't like - and the Stormfather has never liked him. He has no reasons to agree to bond Ishar.

And there is Nale, who is bonded with his Highspren for millenia, who has followed his Oaths ever since and who is as mad as any other Herald. Just being a Radiant and following Oaths doesn't cure Heralds' madness. They can be brought back only for a short while when a Radiant swears an Oath, which brings him closer to SR. Just being a Radiant is not enough. And we know Ishar was showing signs of madness before Gavilar's assassination - it was him who convinced Nale to hunt and kill Radiants and Nale started doing this decades before Gavilar's death. Nale even said that to Venli during the night of Gavilar's assassination, RoW ch 77.

Not to mention if the Stormfather were to sever his bond with Ishar, he would have ended up as a Deadeye. 

9 hours ago, Kesamijr said:

The other part of it though, hinges on Ishar having a Torment.

There is some merit to this, Ashyn was destroyed with the use of a Dawnshard and Ishar was involved. Ishar was the one Odium tricked first with experimenting with the Surges. But it was never confirmed he was a Dawnshard. 

9 hours ago, Kesamijr said:

And something like the Oathpact seems like the type of thing that could be created with Dawnshard level power.

Or not. In OB ch 38 the Stormfather said:

Quote

THE HERALDS WENT TO HONOR, AND HE GAVE THEM THIS RIGHT, THIS OATH.

We know Ishar made the Oathpact, but Honor was involved as well. To me it suggests that Heralds went to Honor having the solution, he gave them the power to make the Oathpact - Honorblades - and Ishar forged it using his Honorblade. The Honorblades were not a part of the Oathpact but they only represented it, they were a gift, it seems reasonable that they were given to Heralds so they can make the Oathpact in the first place. No Dawnshard is needed, especially since Dalinar hopes to reforge it and Ishar said he can help him. 

9 hours ago, Kesamijr said:

So the second part of the theory is: Ishar’s insanity is part of/worsened by his Torment

We have no indication that the Torment itself makes people insane. It makes people immortal and that makes people insane. But if one is already immortal because they are CS, it won't make them more insane if they have a Torment as well. As I said before, this insanity is the result of the soul wearing out because it wasn't meant to live that long. 

9 hours ago, Kesamijr said:

b) around someone ELSE following radiant oaths

Being around someone who follows Oaths doesn't work - Nale, Ash, Taln etc. Nale should have been totally sane because he's constantly around his Skybreakers.

9 hours ago, Kesamijr said:

c) around a TON of Investiture but that seems less likely cuz he’s nuts right by a perpendicularity. 

Yup.

9 hours ago, Kesamijr said:

3) more evidence for Ishar/SF bond I think is how easily Ishar (almost) takes the bond from Dalinar. He seems to know the connection well, as with the connection to Odium.

That's Bondsmith Unchained for you. He has thousands of years of experience with Bondsmithing, he can see Connections just like Dalinar could see them and that's why he recognized Dalinar's Connection to the Stormfather. But wait - Dalinar literally admitted he’s bonded to the Stormfather a moment later and only then Ishar reacted and tried to take this bond. Intent matters, it was a child play for Ishar. RoW ch 111:

Quote

“I have bonded the Stormfather,” Dalinar said. [...]
“I see,” Ishar said softly. He met Dalinar’s eyes. “So. The enemy has corrupted the Stormfather too. I had hoped…” [...]
Ishar touched his hand to his own chest, creating a line of light between him and Dalinar. “I will take this bond to the Stormfather. I will bear it myself."

 

9 hours ago, Kesamijr said:

We know that he now curses the Stormfather and that the Stormfather can still see him, something I’d argue is because of their potentially stronger connection now.

Or maybe because Ishar invokes the name of the Stormfather it forges some kind of weak Connection which allows him to sense Ishar?

9 hours ago, Kesamijr said:

I think it explains why the Stormfather is so jaded when it comes to trusting Dalinar as well. He’s just had a bad experience.

Bad experience with Gavilar you mean?  

9 hours ago, Kesamijr said:

Tear apart my theory, provide feedback, lmk what you think!!:)

It's an interesting addition to the theory. It didn't convince me but it was fun to read  

[CMac716]

On 1/14/2024 at 9:16 AM, alder24 said:

There is some merit to this, Ashyn was destroyed with the use of a Dawnshard and Ishar was involved. Ishar was the one Odium tricked first with experimenting with the Surges. But it was never confirmed he was a Dawnshard. 

It should be noted, that while we don't know if a Dawnshard was involved in the Oathpact, it was used to bring humans to Roshar, and Ishar was involved in that as well. 

[drunkenbotanist]

Not brought up here also is that this reading I think would have not have had the normal amounts of continuity edits that the books get, which could change very specific details