Greater Ideals

[+hwiles]

A peculiar thought, but it occurred to me that many of the times a Radiant on screen has sworn a new Ideal has been the direct result of a traumatic event. So...I suppose I wanted to ask the community: should it theoretically be possible for a Radiant who has already sworn and complied with their 5th ideal to, if cornered, battered, and gravely threatened in a way that challenges the core of the character but is able to be philosophically overcome with a single epiphany, conceive, manifest, and swear a 6th Ideal? Is there any reason to doubt that this is possible?

[alder24]

12 hours ago, hwiles said:

A peculiar thought, but it occurred to me that many of the times a Radiant on screen has sworn a new Ideal has been the direct result of a traumatic event. So...I suppose I wanted to ask the community: should it theoretically be possible for a Radiant who has already sworn and complied with their 5th ideal to, if cornered, battered, and gravely threatened in a way that challenges the core of the character but is able to be philosophically overcome with a single epiphany, conceive, manifest, and swear a 6th Ideal? Is there any reason to doubt that this is possible?

I'm 99% sure that's not possible because Radiants were made and formalized by Ishar. He set up rules and standards which Radiants follow and swearing 5 Ideals is one of them. They follow a thematic path that was pre-established.

[+hwiles]

14 minutes ago, alder24 said:

I'm 99% sure that's not possible because Radiants were made and formalized by Ishar. He set up rules and standards which Radiants follow and swearing 5 Ideals is one of them. They follow a thematic path that was pre-established.

I mean...I know this is a bit of an off the wall proposal so I can't push back too hard...but "pre-established" feels like too strong a word for this case. The Heralds only imposed oaths and orders on the Radiants as a reactionary measure, my understanding is that they were originally surprised when Radiants began manifesting Nahel bonds.

My thought is that Heralds "attempted" to pre-establish development pathways for what were essentially 10 newly evolved wild magic systems which closely mirrored their own capabilities and powers but ultimately got their by totally different means. Those development pathways have obviously been stable enough that no one has broken out of them by brute force progression and self-growth thus far, but do we know them to be hard-capped and, more importantly, would the Heralds have intentionally wanted and chosen to but a hard limit on the people they were trusting with protecting the planet in their stead?

I propose a simple scenario: in the back-half of the stormlight series, a 5th Ideal Radiant is confronted with an existential threat to themselves and their entire order which is somehow directly derived from an ideological weakness, gap, or under-constraint in their Oaths. They see it, they acknowledge it, and they physically CANNOT (because of the first Oath) simply lay down their arms, admit that their order is flawed, and surrender to their own destruction. So what do they do? They swear new words which bind them even tighter and obligate them to do everything they still can to counter such a threat (strength before weakness, and life before death yes?) And all future threats which resemble it.

When I consider that languages evolve and expand over time to incorporate new concepts, and both humans and spren appear to be capable of self-improvement and change...I don't know, this suggestion just really resonated with me. I almost feel like there absolutely must be higher Ideals beyond the 5th, if only because the Heralds were demonstrably imperfect beings; if they truly had all of the answers upfront, then why did they still fall?

Just musings and thoughts; I'd like to hear what more people think back though, or what some potential consequences of extreme ideological binding (or overconstraint!) Could ensue 10 years from now when we really digging into Roshar's future.

Also, also: if all the Heralds die permanently, and they don't lead/govern each Order in any way, do the contents of the Oaths still stay static forever...? 

[Rynon2112]

I always thought the Nahel bond was something the spren created on their own emulating what Honor did with the Heralds

 

[alder24]

7 minutes ago, hwiles said:

My thought is that Heralds "attempted" to pre-establish development pathways for what were essentially 10 newly evolved wild magic systems which closely mirrored their own capabilities and powers but ultimately got their by totally different means. Those development pathways have obviously been stable enough that no one has broken out of them by brute force progression and self-growth thus far, but do we know them to be hard-capped and, more importantly, would the Heralds have intentionally wanted and chosen to but a hard limit on the people they were trusting with protecting the planet in their stead?

The progression of Ideals is a representation of the growth of the Nahel Bond between a knight and their spren. There is a hard limit for that. I would say there is a limit of how much their souls can combine and that's reached with the 5th Ideal. The 5th Ideal is called the Final Ideal for a reason.

We don't know how it looked like before Radiants, but I think spren started to mimic Heralds, giving people Surgebinding powers and Shardblades with no oaths being involved - we probably see this time period with the Nohadon vision, he was talking about Surgebinders and about one of them who started a war before a Desolation, something that a person with such powers shouldn't have done that. They were more similar to Heralds, having powers with no checks. Then Ishar established Radiants, formed 10 Orders based on types of True Spren and based on those spren the 5 Ideal were established, binding Radiants to progression and self-development. This idea of swearing 5 Oaths is likely hard coded into the nature of the Nahel Bond with True Spren - even Renarin follows this path. This progression and Ideals are fixed.

Spoiler

Jeremy (paraphrased)

Is the order of the Ideals fixed? E.g. does Kaladin have to say the Windrunner Ideals in a specific order, or are they situation-specific?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes, the sequence is fixed. The oaths for each order are essentially a progression of understanding of the kind of person that each Order of Knights Radiant is trying to produce. The specific wording of each Ideal is not fixed, but the overall idea of each Ideal, and the order in which they are spoken, is.

When Worlds Collide 2014 (Aug. 9, 2014)

 

Spoiler

Blightsong

Were the ideals of the Knights Radiant consciously chosen, or did they happen naturally?

Brandon Sanderson

*apprehension*. This is one of those vague ones in that yes and no. They are a natural outgrowth of the spren, but the spren are a natural outgrowth of human's perception of natural forces, but the spren are sentient, so I would say it's a little more by instinct than not. For example two Knights Radiant in the same Order might speak the words differently, but the concept is the same. You will see this happen in a future book, where a Windrunner will speak the oaths. It's a slightly different take on the same concept. Some are moreso, like Shallan's oaths are very individualized truths, so.

OdysseyCon 2016 (April 8, 2016)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

So, the establishing of the Knights Radiant followed up the Surgebinders. So I had a question about Renarin - Is he closer to the modern day Radiants power-wise, or the pre-Knights Radiant Surgebinders?

Brandon Sanderson

Renarin?

Questioner

Because he's weird right?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, he is weird. Is he closer to pre-Knights Radiant Surgebinders or to modern Knights Radiant? I'd say closer to modern Knights Radiant, is what I would say... but it's a tough call.

Footnote: The questioner seems to be distinguishing between the formal establishment of the Knights Radiant by Ishar, and Spren-based, Honorblade-copied Surgebinding before then.
Prague Signing (Oct. 26, 2019)

 

29 minutes ago, hwiles said:

When I consider that languages evolve and expand over time to incorporate new concepts, and both humans and spren appear to be capable of self-improvement and change...I don't know, this suggestion just really resonated with me. I almost feel like there absolutely must be higher Ideals beyond the 5th, if only because the Heralds were demonstrably imperfect beings;

What's greater than "I'm the law?" The Skybreaker's Ideal starts with "I don't trust my own judgment, I will seek something external to follow" and ends with "I will trust my own judgment and I will dictate the law." The 5th Ideal Skybreaker doesn't even have to follow the 3rd Ideal anymore. If they realize that the law they have been dictating all those years is wrong, they can always change and establish new, better laws - Nale literally did that. He went from trying to prevent the Desolation from coming to joining Odium because Singers have the right to rule Roshar. A complete 180.

In the same way Windrunners seem to follow a path starting with "I will protect all" to "I can't protect all" (4th Ideal). There is a clear progression here, accepting brutal truths and this progression has to end somewhere. Just like Skybreakers will dictate the law, maybe Windrunners will dictate whom to protect - something that Kaladin asks Syl often: "is it right to kill to protect" or "do I protect only humans or Parshendi too" etc. There is a followup to Kaladin's path and it will end the Windrunner's progression. 

 

29 minutes ago, hwiles said:

if they truly had all of the answers upfront, then why did they still fall?

Thousands of years of torture and layers of PTSD upon layers of PTSD stacked on top of their nature of CS? 

The fact that Ideals are pre-established doesn't mean they are right all the time and give Radiants "moral" high ground. Recreance is the proof of this. Ancient Radiants, faced with the brutal reality of them being responsible for lobotomization of the entire sentient species, stacked on top of their fears that they will destroy Roshar just like humans destroyed Ashyn, didn't swear a 6th Ideal, they've broken their Oaths instead. They've realized they've been following a wrong path altogether. 

That's the solution for what you're proposing - if a Radiant facing an existential crisis realizes that what they have been following isn't right, they can and probably will break their Oaths. 

53 minutes ago, hwiles said:

Also, also: if all the Heralds die permanently, and they don't lead/govern each Order in any way, do the contents of the Oaths still stay static forever...? 

They didn't lead their Orders. The Orders were established just once and since then they stayed the way they were made. Only Nale joined and actually has been leading his order of Skybreakers and as seen, they've changed but still follow the same progression path with the same Ideals.

 

 

3 minutes ago, Rynon2112 said:

I always thought the Nahel bond was something the spren created on their own emulating what Honor did with the Heralds

It's more than that. The Nahel Bond is just a bond between a spren and a physical being. Any bond. This includes Singers and their spren, Chasmfiends and Mandras, Ryshadiums and their spren and also Radiants and True Spren (sapient spren). But only True Spren can grant Surgebinding and that's what was made in ancient times - True Spren started to bond humans to mimic Honor and in consequence they've granted humans Surges through that bond because True Spren are living embodiments of those Surges.

But the levels of power current Radiants can access is the direct effect of Ishar formalizing the Orders and the Oaths. This WoB below proves that the Oaths were formalized, thus that's why the 5th Ideal is the Final Ideal. I was searching just for a WoB like this.

Spoiler

Tom Goldthwait

At any point in the Rosharan history, was it possible to form a Nahel bond without swearing oaths?

Brandon Sanderson

"Nahel bond" is the phrase used for a bond between a spren and a being from the Physical Realm. That is the definition of it. So the answer to that is yes; it's currently possible right now. It's how greatshells exist and grow to the size they do. It's how Ryshadium exist. Those are Nahel bonds also.

What you're asking is if a sapient spren, a spren and a sapient individual, forming what we currently call the Radiant bond, which has access to much greater power; was that possible without swearing oaths? Yes and no. The formalization of the oaths and the Orders aligned with certain spren did take a little bit of time to come together. It was possible to form a Nahel bond before that, but it was not a Radiant bond accessing the levels of powers that are currently possible. So it's another one of these "yes and no" answers, if that makes any sense.

You could find a Nahel bond... In fact, many would call the bond between the singers and the spren that give them forms Nahel bonds. It may not fit fully into the categorization that most people would use it for, but you could kinda call that the same thing.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 1 (Dec. 17, 2020)

 

[Duxredux he/him]

I'm going to speculate for a few paragraphs here on ways to possibly get more than 5 Oaths.

Idea one, is that the Oaths are forming a stronger and stronger Nahel bond. There's hints of this, with Kaladin being able to hear and communicate with Syl telepathically while she's imprisoned on the ship in Shadesmar. I assume that this is the person becoming increasingly more aligned with the Ideal and in Kaladin's case more aligned with Honor and subsequently a better vessel for Stormlight. There is such a thing as a perfect container for Stormlight and we see those in perfect gemstones. The idea here is that there is a logical upper limit to how perfectly someone can be a vessel for Stormlight in addition to alignment with the Ideal. With the gemstone analogy it's the distinction between a person becoming complete or finished rather than simply indefinite flawed growth.

Idea two is that there has to be a logical reason for why 6+ Ideals have never ever been sworn and how this functionally is different from 5th Ideals. One option is if there are "resonate" Ideals that mix and combine the oaths for someone who somehow has successfully bonded the spren of two different orders. I think we can see how insanely difficult this could be as it looks like it would require some sort of consensus between the True Spren. Crazy shenanigans would have to happen.

Idea three is that if there was groupings that had more than 5 oaths, it could be the Radiants with Enlightened Spren, because I don't even know how the system setup with Honor and Cultivation with progressive Oaths even works with Enlightened Spren. Do they even have Oaths? That WoB from alder24 doesn't actually confirm that they have an Oath system and Brandon hasn't given a straight answer when asked directly:

Quote

Questioner

Because of Glys' corrupted nature as a spren of Sja-anat, does that mean that Renarin's swearing different Ideals than the mainstream Truthwatcher ideals?

Brandon Sanderson

Um... I'll RAFO that for now. But there will definitely be some differences.

Skyward Seattle signing (Nov. 10, 2018)

After writing this out, I'm leaning more and more towards first idea, that the oaths are alignment to a Platonic ideal, and each oath is about further alignment to that ideal. It's like trying to make a more than perfect gemstone, there isn't a higher degree of perfection than something that can indefinitely hold Stormlight with no decay. There is variability within each level of oath of how well a Radiant aligns with the ideals, Kaladin shows this in WoR, and the idea is that the 5th Ideal's upper bound is that degree of perfect alignment to the ideal. I think maybe a Radiant that somehow perfectly fit the Ideal wouldn't leak Stormlight, but that it's nearly impossible.

Here's another way of imagining this. Try drawing a circle. Okay, now do a better one. Try using a piece of string. Now a compass. Perfect yet? Sharpened your pencil or chalk to micron accuracy? Okay, hypothetically you have finally drawn the platonically idealized circle. By definition, adding or removing anything to this circle will be moving away from the ideal circle. You can't do better, it is perfect, complete, and finished. To be clear, I don't think that swearing the 5th Ideal puts a Radiant at this degree of perfection, rather the 5th Ideal encompasses the perfect Platonic Ideal and having sworn the 5th you've just ticked past the 80% alignment mark (an arbitrary number, but you get the point, not 100%), and that you can fluctuate within that 80%-100% range without breaking Oaths.

From this standpoint, it's possible for a 5th Ideal Radiant to do a lot of soul searching and reach an epiphany that helps them more closely align themselves to their Ideal rather than resorting to breaking their Oaths and jettisoning their spren. They might even phrase the epiphany in a similar manner to their oaths. They could even share it with other members of their order and have it genuinely help them understand better and progress faster within their Ideals. I think this is even possible to have this sort of epiphany of pithy statement in the middle of the 3rd Ideal. This is separate from the formalized process that first allows drawing in Stormlight, initial Surgebinding, gaining a Shardblade and the ability to have squires, gaining Shardplate, and if there is another special aspect to the 5th Ideal that we don't know yet, then it requires the 5th Ideal to actually formalize that advantage. Will saying out loud and have their spren confirm that it is putting them on the right track get them closer to their ideal? Yes, but not in a formalized manner that would give them a Shardblade or Plate at the lower Ideals. 

... I wonder if the reason the Recreance was complete and so poorly understood in the modern era was because Nale hunted down and killed any stragglers that were not Skybreakers. Perhaps it wasn't a unanimous decision among the other nine orders, Nale just... tidied up.

[Rynon2112]

On 1/12/2024 at 3:33 PM, alder24 said:

The progression of Ideals is a representation of the growth of the Nahel Bond between a knight and their spren. There is a hard limit for that. I would say there is a limit of how much their souls can combine and that's reached with the 5th Ideal. The 5th Ideal is called the Final Ideal for a reason.

We don't know how it looked like before Radiants, but I think spren started to mimic Heralds, giving people Surgebinding powers and Shardblades with no oaths being involved - we probably see this time period with the Nohadon vision, he was talking about Surgebinders and about one of them who started a war before a Desolation, something that a person with such powers shouldn't have done that. They were more similar to Heralds, having powers with no checks. Then Ishar established Radiants, formed 10 Orders based on types of True Spren and based on those spren the 5 Ideal were established, binding Radiants to progression and self-development. This idea of swearing 5 Oaths is likely hard coded into the nature of the Nahel Bond with True Spren - even Renarin follows this path. This progression and Ideals are fixed.

  Reveal hidden contents

Jeremy (paraphrased)

Is the order of the Ideals fixed? E.g. does Kaladin have to say the Windrunner Ideals in a specific order, or are they situation-specific?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes, the sequence is fixed. The oaths for each order are essentially a progression of understanding of the kind of person that each Order of Knights Radiant is trying to produce. The specific wording of each Ideal is not fixed, but the overall idea of each Ideal, and the order in which they are spoken, is.

When Worlds Collide 2014 (Aug. 9, 2014)

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Blightsong

Were the ideals of the Knights Radiant consciously chosen, or did they happen naturally?

Brandon Sanderson

*apprehension*. This is one of those vague ones in that yes and no. They are a natural outgrowth of the spren, but the spren are a natural outgrowth of human's perception of natural forces, but the spren are sentient, so I would say it's a little more by instinct than not. For example two Knights Radiant in the same Order might speak the words differently, but the concept is the same. You will see this happen in a future book, where a Windrunner will speak the oaths. It's a slightly different take on the same concept. Some are moreso, like Shallan's oaths are very individualized truths, so.

OdysseyCon 2016 (April 8, 2016)

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Questioner

So, the establishing of the Knights Radiant followed up the Surgebinders. So I had a question about Renarin - Is he closer to the modern day Radiants power-wise, or the pre-Knights Radiant Surgebinders?

Brandon Sanderson

Renarin?

Questioner

Because he's weird right?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, he is weird. Is he closer to pre-Knights Radiant Surgebinders or to modern Knights Radiant? I'd say closer to modern Knights Radiant, is what I would say... but it's a tough call.

Footnote: The questioner seems to be distinguishing between the formal establishment of the Knights Radiant by Ishar, and Spren-based, Honorblade-copied Surgebinding before then.
Prague Signing (Oct. 26, 2019)

 

What's greater than "I'm the law?" The Skybreaker's Ideal starts with "I don't trust my own judgment, I will seek something external to follow" and ends with "I will trust my own judgment and I will dictate the law." The 5th Ideal Skybreaker doesn't even have to follow the 3rd Ideal anymore. If they realize that the law they have been dictating all those years is wrong, they can always change and establish new, better laws - Nale literally did that. He went from trying to prevent the Desolation from coming to joining Odium because Singers have the right to rule Roshar. A complete 180.

In the same way Windrunners seem to follow a path starting with "I will protect all" to "I can't protect all" (4th Ideal). There is a clear progression here, accepting brutal truths and this progression has to end somewhere. Just like Skybreakers will dictate the law, maybe Windrunners will dictate whom to protect - something that Kaladin asks Syl often: "is it right to kill to protect" or "do I protect only humans or Parshendi too" etc. There is a followup to Kaladin's path and it will end the Windrunner's progression. 

 

Thousands of years of torture and layers of PTSD upon layers of PTSD stacked on top of their nature of CS? 

The fact that Ideals are pre-established doesn't mean they are right all the time and give Radiants "moral" high ground. Recreance is the proof of this. Ancient Radiants, faced with the brutal reality of them being responsible for lobotomization of the entire sentient species, stacked on top of their fears that they will destroy Roshar just like humans destroyed Ashyn, didn't swear a 6th Ideal, they've broken their Oaths instead. They've realized they've been following a wrong path altogether. 

That's the solution for what you're proposing - if a Radiant facing an existential crisis realizes that what they have been following isn't right, they can and probably will break their Oaths. 

They didn't lead their Orders. The Orders were established just once and since then they stayed the way they were made. Only Nale joined and actually has been leading his order of Skybreakers and as seen, they've changed but still follow the same progression path with the same Ideals.

 

 

It's more than that. The Nahel Bond is just a bond between a spren and a physical being. Any bond. This includes Singers and their spren, Chasmfiends and Mandras, Ryshadiums and their spren and also Radiants and True Spren (sapient spren). But only True Spren can grant Surgebinding and that's what was made in ancient times - True Spren started to bond humans to mimic Honor and in consequence they've granted humans Surges through that bond because True Spren are living embodiments of those Surges.

But the levels of power current Radiants can access is the direct effect of Ishar formalizing the Orders and the Oaths. This WoB below proves that the Oaths were formalized, thus that's why the 5th Ideal is the Final Ideal. I was searching just for a WoB like this.

  Reveal hidden contents

Tom Goldthwait

At any point in the Rosharan history, was it possible to form a Nahel bond without swearing oaths?

Brandon Sanderson

"Nahel bond" is the phrase used for a bond between a spren and a being from the Physical Realm. That is the definition of it. So the answer to that is yes; it's currently possible right now. It's how greatshells exist and grow to the size they do. It's how Ryshadium exist. Those are Nahel bonds also.

What you're asking is if a sapient spren, a spren and a sapient individual, forming what we currently call the Radiant bond, which has access to much greater power; was that possible without swearing oaths? Yes and no. The formalization of the oaths and the Orders aligned with certain spren did take a little bit of time to come together. It was possible to form a Nahel bond before that, but it was not a Radiant bond accessing the levels of powers that are currently possible. So it's another one of these "yes and no" answers, if that makes any sense.

You could find a Nahel bond... In fact, many would call the bond between the singers and the spren that give them forms Nahel bonds. It may not fit fully into the categorization that most people would use it for, but you could kinda call that the same thing.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 1 (Dec. 17, 2020)

 

Now that I read the surges part. When the ardents translated the text from the Dawnchant, it said that the humans already were able to control the surges:

Quote

They came from another world, using powers that we have been forbidden to touch. Dangerous powers, of spren and Surges. They destroyed their lands and have come to us begging.

Was this just granted directly by Odium? Were this powers voidbinding or some other manifestation? It kind of always bugged me.

[Treamayne]

1 hour ago, Rynon2112 said:

Was this just granted directly by Odium? Were this powers voidbinding or some other manifestation? It kind of always bugged me.

Keep in mind that unreliable narrator is in play. WoB (edited to relavant bits, it's long):

Spoiler

Argent

In the Syl interlude in Rhythm of War, she is speaking with Dalinar about his powers and the things those powers have done in the past. And what she says is "a Bondsmith bound other Surges". First of all, what other Surges?

Brandon Sanderson

One potential interpretation for you on this, remember they use Surge and spren sometimes interchangeably in-world. Just making you aware of that.

<snip>

Argent

And that would be maybe the power of Connection, the way Lightweaving is the power of illusion?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. And for instance, there were not Elsecallers to get people between Ashyn and Roshar, but on Roshar they would explain what happened there as Elsecalling. 

JordanCon 2021 (July 17, 2021)

So, it's more like the Singers writing that in Dawnchant are saying "they manipulated investiture and accidentally destroyed their own world" but with the only vocabulary they had available.

It has been theorized (but not confirmed) that Odium influenced Ishar to experiemnt in a way that did end with the cataclysm on Ashyn, but it is (mostly) jossed that Odium gave them the ability to do so. WoB:

Spoiler

Questioner

Did Odium originally have a planet he was Invested in?

Brandon Sanderson

Odium's plan always involved not getting stuck on one

JordanCon 2016 (April 23, 2016)

Odium did not Invest in the Rosharan system until after being bound by Honor and having no choice because he was stuck. 

Edited February 4 by Treamayne
SPAG/Clarity

[alder24]

1 hour ago, Rynon2112 said:

Now that I read the surges part. When the ardents translated the text from the Dawnchant, it said that the humans already were able to control the surges:

Was this just granted directly by Odium? Were this powers voidbinding or some other manifestation? It kind of always bugged me.

Yes, they had a form of Surgebinding on Ashyn, the origin planet of humanity, but that Surgebinding was not like Rosharan Surgebinding. Rosharans tend to use the term Surgebinding or Surges for any kind of invested art/magic. Any illusion type magic would be called by them as Lightweaving, any teleportation is Elsecalling for them, any Connection manipulation is Bondsmithing etc. The term "Surge" is translated as "powers of creation," Surgebinding means binding powers of creation. 

Spoiler

Wetlander

When Shallan does Lightweaving, is that a combination of Illumination and Transformation, or is Lightweaving just of Illumination?

Brandon Sanderson

Lightweaving is just of Illumination. Lightweaving is a long-established power in the cosmere. Very early books, in fact one of the very first stories I ever wrote, Lightweaving was the magic. (That story is unpublished, written long ago - long before Liar of Partinel) And so, this stems from my own personal affection for illusion and my feeling that it had not been used as well as I wanted it to be used in fantasy fiction. So I consider it only Illumination truly in The Stormlight Archive.

Firefight Seattle UBooks signing (Jan. 6, 2015)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

Could you use AonDor to manipulate Connection? If so, would a real AonDor smarty be able to do something similar to a Bondsmith?

Brandon Sanderson

The short answer to your question is: yes. Let me give some explanation.

Even when you are seeings some things happening in Elantris itself, you are seeing them manipulate Connection. It is mostly reinforcing Connection, but it is, in a way, manipulation. Rewriting Connection, rewriting Identity are both things that they can do. So with enough power, with enough smartiness, what a Bondsmith can do can be done.

In fact, we have seen short-range Elsecalling done by… Obviously Elsecalling’s not Bondsmithing, but you know that a Bondsmith powered a big Elsecalling [to migrate from Ashyn], one of the big things you’ve seen a Bondsmith do is get people between planets. And you have seen people use AonDor to Elsecall. You’ve seen them Lightweave, you’ve seen them do a lot of these things. They also could do some of this same stuff.

Basically, rule of thumb is: almost anything in the cosmere that is possible can be replicated with AonDor with the right program. But you may need an injection of Investiture in certain ways.

Dragonsteel 2022 (Nov. 14, 2022)

 

Spoiler

Argent

In the Syl interlude in Rhythm of War, she is speaking with Dalinar about his powers and the things those powers have done in the past. And what she says is "a Bondsmith bound other Surges". First of all, what other Surges?

Brandon Sanderson

One potential interpretation for you on this, remember they use Surge and spren sometimes interchangeably in-world. Just making you aware of that.

Argent

Yeah I'm aware of that. Bound other Surges....

Argent

Then the term Bondsmith. To me it seems like she's talking about Ishar and the Ashyn stuff. So would they use Bondsmith to describe him in that place?

Brandon Sanderson

That might be what she's talking about. I'm not guaranteeing it.

Argent

And that would be maybe the power of Connection, the way Lightweaving is the power of illusion?

Brandon Sanderson

So one other thing to keep aware of in the cosmere - for instance they call "Lightweaving" any illusion-based magic working on the same fundamentals. And so you could argue - and people will use it that way in-world - that Bondsmithing is both an order [of Knights Radiant] and a power that exists outside the order.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. And for instance, there were not Elsecallers to get people between Ashyn and Roshar, but on Roshar they would explain what happened there as Elsecalling. Does that make sense?

Argent

I mean, as much as these things make sense, yes.

JordanCon 2021 (July 17, 2021)

 

Spoiler

Kimbobhi

Is it possible to Surgebind using gaseous Investiture other than Roshar's?

Brandon Sanderson

So here's the thing. It depends on your definition of Surgebinding. Surgebinding would be the Rosharan definition of all of the magics. They would call the Metallic Arts Surgebinding. You are binding the powers of creation, which the word "Surge" is that word translated from Rosharan into English, that's what the word means in Rosharan, is the powers of creation. The fundamental forces which inspired me to make this. So they would consider all of them to be Surgebinding. And that's just what you're doing, you are binding and using those powers.

Other people, including Khriss, would not agree with that definition. They would say: Surgebinding is specifically binding, through the Nahel bond, the spren, the specific manifestations of Investiture on Roshar, by using specific sets of oaths in order to gain access to those powers. So she would say: no, that is not Surgebinding when someone uses Allomancy. I would lean with her on that one, but the other one's a viable definition.

What you're really asking is, can someone, one of the Rosharan, the Knightly Radiant Orders, could they power that with a different form of Investiture from a different planet? And yes, this is possible, though there might be some difficulties in making it work, which I haven't explained entirely yet. But yes, this is possible. In fact, it is possible to power all of the different magics with the different forms of Investiture. That is a possibility

This is one of the reasons why Mraize and Thaidakar are so interested in Stormlight. Because if you could get Stormlight off, and you can crack that... just way easier to get Stormlight than it is to get the other ones. Like Breath, you could consider easy, but hard to morally harvest; in fact, perhaps impossible. If you want ethical, sustainable magic, then Roshar is a much better bet than some of the other places that you could...

Adam Horne

Does that mean Mraize and [Thaidakar] want an ethically sustainable...?

Brandon Sanderson

They're really interested in the sustainable part. I would say that they both would say "yes" to that question. They would consider their actions to be, on an ethical spectrum, at least in the neutral area, perhaps. Others would disagree with that.

Adam Horne

Where would they fall, philosophically speaking, like Kantianism, or?

Brandon Sanderson

I'd have to think about that. That's a good question. Certainly not as far on the utilitarianism side as someone like Taravangian, who's about as far as you can go. But Jasnah is pretty far on that side, also. Though she considers her version more of a "what is the greatest good I can do with any action I take?" (Which one is that? It's not Kantian, but you know what I mean.) That is a little on the utilitarian side. Not a little, that's... not as far as Taravangian, but that's definitely, yeah. They would maybe be in between those two, maybe. Depends. They're not the same individual, they would have different lines.

There's gonna be (let's just say) future books that explore Thaidakar's relationship with that. But you have seen in other books the lengths that Thaidakar is willing to take in order to achieve his goals. He is not far off from Taravangian in some of those things that he has done.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 1 (Dec. 17, 2020)

 

 

Ashynites had access to invested arts. It's likely that it was similar to present Ashynite magic, which is a disease based magic - you get ill, you get powers. We know also this is related to the Old Magic and it's considered to be a Cultivation-based magic, because Cultivation visited Ashyn once. However, since the destruction of Ashyn it changed in some way, resulting in what we have now on Ashyn. I think the most likely scenario is that there was no Odium-based magic on Ashyn (because Odium wanted to avoid getting tied to the planet, he wanted to Splinter Shards and move to another place, investing in Ashyn to manifest his Invested Art would bind him to the system) and people just used Cultivation-based magic to destroy their world - and those were the Surges said in the quote. This is also suggested a bit by the Stormfather, who said Odium encourage Ishar to experiment with Surges - the magic was there, unknown to people, Odium just told them to play with it, RoW ch 111:

Quote

The Stormfather paused, then rumbled more softly. I never liked him. Though I was only a wind then—and not completely conscious—I remember him. Ishar was ambitious even before madness took him. He cannot bear sole blame for the destruction of Ashyn, humankind’s first home, but he was the one Odium first tricked into experimenting with the Surges.

 

Spoiler

Questioner

So I was reading that one of the worlds, I think it was Yolen, is going to be a disease oriented magic?

Brandon Sanderson

It's not Yolen, it's Ashyn...

Questioner

How does that work?

Brandon Sanderson

Viruses and bacteria, various strains of them, have evolved in-line with the Investiture on the planet to grant you a magical ability when you catch the disease, because they want you to stay alive long enough to--

Questioner

To transmit it.

Brandon Sanderson

--o transmit it. So it becomes part of the transmission vector. So you have superpowers or whatever-- You can fly as long as you have the common cold, but when you get over it, you can't anymore.

Firefight Seattle Public Library signing (Jan. 7, 2015)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

You have talked about writing a book about Ashyn, the first planet in the Rosharan system. You said that they have a magic system based on disease, but they are currently without a Shard. Can you tell us what the source of that magic system is?

Brandon Sanderson

A lot of the magic systems in the cosmere, I kind of in my head differentiate kind of the primary worlds and the secondary worlds. And even on the secondary worlds, there is magic. And any place that a Shard has been in presence is gonna leave behind an aftereffect, but it's not always that. I would call most of the magic on Ashyn Cultivation-based, most likely. And Cultivation's in the system, but has only briefly been to that planet. But it doesn't mean that... basically, it's kind of the level of Investiture. If you go to Scadrial, on Scadrial, you're gonna have a high percentage of the population, cosmereologically, that are gonna have access to one of the Hemalurgic [Metallic] arts, right? Same thing on Roshar. And indeed, the people are going to be Invested on a level that is beyond the others. This is my in-world canon reason that people just don't come down with colds very often or have tooth decay very often, and things like that. On the primary Shardworlds, we're talking about people who are just naturally, highly Invested.

All the other worlds, though, you're still gonna have the occasional pop-up of magic, here and there. You're still gonna have effects of being in the cosmere, and things like that. Just much smaller chances. And the magic's probably going to be less likely to be planet-destroying potential, and things like that, like happened on Ashyn.

Dragonsteel Mini-Con 2021 (Nov. 23, 2021)

 

Spoiler

R'Shara

So on Ashyn, was the magic system always diseased based?

Brandon Sanderson

That was the diseased based magic.

R'Shara

Yeah, before-

Brandon Sanderson

I'll RAFO that. It isn't exactly the same as it was.

Skyward release party (Nov. 6, 2018)

 

Spoiler

Paleo (paraphrased)

Are the Ashynite magic system, in which micro organisms cause diseases and bestow powers, and the Old Magic related? You could sort of see the powers and the disease as a boon and a curse. If so, does the "Old" part come from that?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes, they are related, but the name comes from the magic actually predating spren bonds.

Stuttgart signing (May 17, 2019)

 

Spoiler

Vanahian

Brandon has said that the Ashynite disease-based magic was related with the Old Magic. Did he mean it in a direct way? Like this magic from Ashyn was a branch or a variety of the Old Magic system?

Brandon Sanderson

I do have to RAFO this, for the most part. Suffice it to say that the disease magic is related to a symbiotic bond between spren-like Investiture and microorganisms.

General Reddit 2020 (Sept. 24, 2020)