Idea on the Flaw

[Grubfriend He/Him]

Note: this idea might make you invulnerable to Soothers or Rioters but not Ruin. This first paragraph is Era 2 logic

 If A-copper makes a person immune to Emotional Allomancy could a person with spikes burn copper and be immune to control. This makes no sense for a normal person since placing a fourth spike to gain immunity to a problem that you solve by opening your soul makes no sense. But, a natural Smoker could gain four abilities and have the extra benefits/protection of copper. This is the best possible use unless a person can get more than four spikes, otherwise we are solving a problem by bringing it into the equation.

Does this make sense to anyone?

 

[alder24]

4 minutes ago, Void Reborn said:

Note: this idea might make you invulnerable to Soothers or Rioters but not Ruin. This first paragraph is Era 2 logic

 If A-copper makes a person immune to Emotional Allomancy could a person with spikes burn copper and be immune to control. This makes no sense for a normal person since placing a fourth spike to gain immunity to a problem that you solve by opening your soul makes no sense. But, a natural Smoker could gain four abilities and have the extra benefits/protection of copper. This is the best possible use unless a person can get more than four spikes, otherwise we are solving a problem by bringing it into the equation.

Does this make sense to anyone?

It helps but it won't make you immune. Each spike makes a hole in your soul that will allow emotional Allomancy to affect you easier. We've seen this with the Lord Ruler's soothing and Vin - Vin with one spike could feel Rashek's soothing even though she was burning copper, while could not. TFE ch 14

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Vin shrugged. However, as she moved on the rooftop, she felt it again—the sense of depression coming from Kredik Shaw.
“There is something, Kelsier,” she said. “The palace feels . . . wrong, somehow.”
“That’s the Lord Ruler,” Kelsier said. “He radiates like an incredibly powerful Soother, smothering the emotions of everyone who gets close to him. Turn on your copper; that will make you immune.”
Vin nodded, burning copper. Immediately, the sensation went away.

ch 31:

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“It happened before too,” Vin said. “I can feel the Lord Ruler’s touch on my emotions, even when I’m burning copper"

ch 26:

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Then she felt it. The oppressive numbness, like a massive blanket pressing down, choking away her air, stealing her will. She immediately burned copper. Yet, like before, she swore that she could feel the Lord Ruler’s Soothing despite the metal. She sensed him coming closer, trying to make her lose all will, all desire, all strength of emotion.

ch 34:

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Vin nearly lost her grip as the wave of depression hit her. She flared her copper, but—as always—she could still slightly feel the Lord Ruler’s oppressive hand.

ch 35:

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You’re wrong,” Vin said, rising and walking toward the door. “He’s strong, Saze. Kelsier couldn’t feel him, not like I can. He didn’t know.”

Here it is when Vin was imprisoned by inquisitors and her earring was taken away from here. She noted that TLR's oppressive Allomancy is not as strong as it was earlier. ch 36:

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She took a few deep breaths, climbing to her knees, calming herself. There was something . . . Pushing against her. The Lord Ruler’s presence. She could feel it, though it wasn’t as powerful as it had been earlier, when he had killed Kelsier. Still, she didn’t have copper to burn—she had no way to hide from the Lord Ruler’s powerful, almost omnipotent, hand. She felt depression twisting her, telling her to just lie down, to give up. . . .

And here is when Rashek deliberately pierced Vin's coppercloud ch 38:

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The awesome, full power of the Lord Ruler’s fury hit her halfway up. The depression, the anger-fueled asphyxiation of her soul, pushed through her copper, hitting her like a physical force. She flared copper, gasping slightly, but wasn’t completely able to push the Lord Ruler off of her emotions.
[...]
But he had also said that no Allomancer could affect the emotions of a person who was burning copper.

 

Yes, I know Rashek is so strong he can pierce Copperclouds, but in the last quote the difference in power compared to other situations is very noticeable - it was the full power of his soothing and that would pierce any Coppercloud.

Kelsier was speaking from experience - burn copper and you won't feel the Lord Ruler's emotional Allomancy - he met him up close years ago. What I conclude based on these quotes is that Rashek uses general emotional Allomancy in the area around him. Because it's general and unfocused it won't pierce Copperclouds. When he focuses his pushes on a single person, it strikes like a physical force, much stronger than any of his previous soothings and that pierces Copperclouds. But Vin could always feel his general soothing, even when Kelsier told her burning copper will make her immune. Kelsier had never experienced that, he couldn't feel that through his Coppercloud. Vin did. It was weaker when Vin had no earring, thus no spike. For me it means that Vin is more susceptible to emotional Allomancy because of her spike. This spike cracks her soul and opens her more to soothing and rioting and with that to hemalurgic control if you have enough spikes. 

Sure, a Coppercloud can help if you already have 4 spikes. It can make it difficult but you're in no way invulnerable, you're just a bit harder to control, but it isn't outside of possibility of duralumin powered soothing or a normal "team of soothers." It would take a little more time to break through a Coppercloud and establish Hemalurgic control, but a normal Coppercloud won't save you.

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

The Resolution

TenSoon and the other kandra resist Ruin and are able to pull the spikes from their shoulders. There are a couple of reasons why they can do this.

The power that Allomancers have to take control of them is the same power Ruin has. That control is exerted in the form of mental pressure through emotional Allomancy. As can be seen from Marsh's viewpoint, it is more than simply forcing the body to act as Ruin wishes. The extreme pressure on emotions changes the very way the mind thinks, tricking it into doing exactly what Ruin wants. The flaw in Hemalurgists leaves them open to this kind of manipulation.

Kandra, who only have two spikes, are far more difficult to control than koloss or Inquisitors. Vin is able to control TenSoon with ease in book two, but that's partially because he wanted her to do so. He would have been able to resist her. If she'd continued to push, she could have broken him, but it would have taken time.

Even Ruin's pressure wasn't enough to take control immediately. The kandra had a few moments during which they could overcome him and maintain their free will. Beyond that, they were in a cavern surrounded by metal ore in the walls, making it very difficult for Ruin to see what was going on and interfering with his ability to control them.

The Hero of Ages Annotations (May 13, 2010)

 

[Quantus he/him]

"Immune" is a really strong term for it.  It is technically possible but very difficult and not at all common, it would take a particularly strong and dedicated user.  But even then, there are a lot of ways to pierce a coppercloud, both for individuals and for groups.  

EDIT: and as the WOB points out, a simple aluminum foil hat would do it a lot easier.  

 

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Questioner

Also speaking of continutiy...

Brandon Sanderson

Uh oh. 

Questioner

This is a very very minor spoiler. It's just a statement that was made in Alloy of Law, that Smokers could...

Brandon Sanderson

Oh yeah, that was just a typo

Questioner

Is that going to change things?

Brandon Sanderson

Wait, go ahead and say it.

Questioner

Can Copperclouds shield others' emotions?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh okay. Did we put that in Alloy of Law in the Ars Arcanum? Is that where you read it?

Questioner

I forget. I don't remember where it is.

Brandon Sanderson

I believe it’s in the Ars Arcanum, which in Alloy of Law was put together by Peter. And that’s mostly a mistake, though the thing is the Role Playing Game came to me and said “Is it feasible that this could happen?” And I said “It’s perhaps feasible, but only a very rare individual could make this work if they knew exactly what they were doing.” And so I said “Yeah, go ahead, but make it a power that someone really has to know what they’re doing to make it work.” And so they put it in, and so Peter assumed that it was canon, that anyone can do it, but that’s not what I intended.

Questioner

So would it be easier to say that somebody discovered they could do it and now they are training copperclouds to do it?

Brandon Sanderson

I would say that it is viable that someone could figure it out, but it would be a very difficult thing to train, and it is not a common Coppercloud—A common Coppercloud isn’t going to be able to be doing it, and almost no Mistborn will ever be capable of doing it, they just don’t focus on that metal enough to learn it. Of course, there aren’t Mistborn around anymore. So it is a possible power, it is plausible, but it is not the standard. Perhaps I will allow it to become the standard eventually, but it’s not right now. It would be much easier to wear a tinfoil hat. (laughter) Aluminum, aluminum. Which does work.

West Jordan signing (Dec. 15, 2011)

 

 

Edited January 10, 2024 by Quantus

[alder24]

6 minutes ago, Quantus said:

"Immune" is a really strong term for it.  It is technically possible but very difficult and not at all common, it would take a particularly strong and dedicated user.  But even then, there are a lot of ways to pierce a coppercloud, both for individuals and for groups.  

EDIT: and as the WOB points out, a simple aluminum foil hat would do it a lot easier.  

This WoB is not about this tbf. A Smoker shields others around him from being detected by bronze, but he also shields him from emotional Allomancy - only Smoker is protected and nobody else. The question was if a Smoker can shield others around him from being affected by soothing and rioting. A normal Coppercloud won't do it but it's possible to learn in the future.

But yeah, I agree. Tinfoil hat for a win.

[Quantus he/him]

1 minute ago, alder24 said:

This WoB is not about this tbf. A Smoker shields others around him from being detected by bronze, but he also shields him from emotional Allomancy - only Smoker is protected and nobody else. The question was if a Smoker can shield others around him from being affected by soothing and rioting. A normal Coppercloud won't do it but it's possible to learn in the future.

But yeah, I agree. Tinfoil hat for a win.

Ah, I missed the nuance, good catch.  

[Trusk'our he/him]

2 hours ago, Void Reborn said:

Does this make sense to anyone?

Yup, makes perfect sense to me. 

I will say though, @alder24 is right; a regular A-copper spike or natural Smoker isn't going to grant you total immunity, just added resistance. Now, I will add that if you were to find a way to augment your A-copper without needing to add more than one additional spike (ahem, supercharging it) or using some other method (F-nicrosil, assuming it actually can work to augment your Allomancy) then you could get much, much more resistance.

I will also say, I think that it is theoretically possible to become fully immune to a Shard's influence via A-copper, as a Shard seems only able to exert a certain amount of influence on a Hemalurgist based on how many spikes they have. Otherwise, any crack in the Spiritweb would be enough for a being with virtually unlimited Investiture to forcefully control them, which is just not the case.

As such, I believe that there would be a sort of "balance" necessary to stave off their control; you'd need to have strong enough A-copper to push back the Investiture the Shard is capable of squeezing through the cracks in your Spiritweb, though not the entire Shard's power.