Theory: the nature of spren

[Shivertongue he/him]

You are forgetting to incorporate one very important aspect.

How does it relate to Wafflematic theory?

[Telcontar]

I see now. My theory is obviously flawed as I have completely forgotten about the realmatic implications of iron-shaped cakes.

I'll try to put things together. Okay, this may not save my theory but ardents who - through years of practice and thorough research concerning the complements of a cake known as "waffle" (brought to them by Hoid from Scadrial, of course) - are able to Soulcast stuff into waffles are secretely known as Wafflemasters and lead their respective devotary.

About spren then. As we know that everything has a spren, these Soulcasted waffles have a cognitive aspect, which is freed in the process of consuming these delicious wonders. However, there has not been any waffle-spren yet. I esteem that even Axis has not heard of them yet.

And that is solely because noone has yet eaten a waffle outside during a Highstorm, permitting the cognitive aspect of the waffle to become waffle-spren.

[Odium's_Shard]

I have a new idea for 'owling', wherever you sad people are out there that perform such tomfoolery.

Sit on a fence in the middle of a Highstorm, eating a waffle, in order to test Telcontar's theory about waffle0spren, so that I can put together a ridiculous experiment about it that defiles the very nature of the theorem, as I have proceeded to do throughout the 'Mistborn' and 'Stormlight Archive' boards!

Prereqisites:

Have to have at least a B in Wafflematics at Wafflemaster Devotary. As only eunuchs can enter the Devotary, this makes for a 'substantial' payment.

[Eri she/her]

If the Parshmen are like super-drabs, then, maybe Voidbringers aren't Parhmen, but they turn people into Parshmen or something similar? Hence the name — they such spirit out of people, thus bringing void. Or they can be kinda both..

BTW I love this theory. It makes sense.

[Telcontar]

thanks Eri, but didn't you post another one quite similar to this one?

Anyway. There is some other questions about spren I'd like to do some research about and try to use this theory to explain other phenomena we encounter related to spren. Or maybe we'll find some issues that will prove that everything I said is nuts.

So there is the following things I'd like to discuss with you:

- the interlude where spren stop changing shape when their measurements are written down

- the problem with special type of spren. Ie (what's-his-name) the Protector and also symbolheads.

- the powers spren have or give. I'm not talking about Investiture-spren but about spren captured in fabrials and those who have an effect on their own, for example the spren who allow greatshells to grow to that size.

- what exactly attracts them and why

- what makes them stick in fabrials.

I'm going to start with abnormal spren

Talking about abnormal spren first needs a definition of normal spren of course. In the initial post I was only referring to those spren who don't have much of a distinctive shape and glow in some colour. Often those float around, but some don't (f.ex. rotspren or deathspren). What they have in common IMO is what I said in the OP. They are cognitive aspects that in some way have bound with Stormlight.

So, what makes others abnormal? For the Protector it's his enormous size and his curious shape. For symbolheads (presuming they are indeed spren) it's their size, their shape (which does not change at all) and their intelligence. All this points to the conclusion that they are at least a different kind of spren.

it is said that some of the bigger spren (like wind- or riverspren) are able to imitate the shape of objects. Like leaves for example. Honorspren can certainly do so, but as I said, I believe those to be Splinters.

If the size of a spren can indicate its ability to change shape then this could just be related to a bigger amount of Stormlight bound, thus granting more sentience and intelligence. Which would just be barely enough to imitate other things.

To retain their elaborated shape, the Protector and symbolheads would need a fair amount of sentience. The symbolheads even more, since they are able to speak to people. Of course, if you support the idea that symbolheads are Investiture-spren, then this would only be due to the Nahel-bond. (You may know that I do not agree with that idea)

But. Syl says herself that spren are all the same, they act all alike, except for Syl herself. Then why do symbolheads contain their shape. And, if the Nahel-bond grants sentience to only one spren, then why are there so many symbolheads in their symbolhead-shape?

Also, perception. Normal spren can be seen in the physical realm, whey they are attracted to whatever attracts them. Some spren can appearently only be seen with the subconscious mind. Like dying people (seeing deathspren or symbolheads), very very drunk people (intoxication-spren) or through the corners of the eyes/in mirrors (for Elhokar) or via Memories (for Shallan). I see the subconscious mind as the human's cognitive aspect. It would be logical to be able to perceive other cognitive aspects (which don't have a physical representation) with your own cognitive aspect.

All this makes me believe that smybolheads aren't spren like the normal spren, and not spren at all by the definition I had given in the OP. However I still suppose they are spren. But different. And not splinters.

Now. the Protector. IIRC he seems much more like a normal spren. Only huge and having shifting faces. I'd say that it's that big because it drains tiny parts of human's spiritual energy. We know that people feel drained after having visited it. And we know that drabs feel a loss of something, only more important than what people feel after meeting the Protector. And if the Protector has lots of tiny human souls inside itself, those tiny souls make up the Protector's personality, only with many many faces. So when he appears, all the faces he has collected over the years shift constantly.

The interesting thing would be how he would be able to drain tiny parts of the souls of people. But if Syl can give spiritual energy, why shouldn't there be other beings who could take them. And then, there must be a way how parshmen can be made into super-drabs out of Parshendi.

Enough for now.

[Odium's_Shard]

Telcontar! And you said you wouldn't be back for a while? Now allow me to constructive deconstruct your post!

So, what makes others abnormal? For the Protector it's his enormous size and his curious shape. For symbolheads (presuming they are indeed spren) it's their size, their shape (which does not change at all) and their intelligence. All this points to the conclusion that they are at least a different kind of spren.

I believe that what actually makes a spren 'abnormal' is that it doesn't follow the typical rules of a spren. These rules do not impact 'shape' or the like, as this is merely a human 'Physical' perception, and gives no clue as to what the spren resembles on the Spiritual or Cognitive Planes, and thus is in some way a mask. For this, you could conclude that in order to maintain the 'mask' a spren needs to have the energy to do so.

Now, you may have seen my theories around the many boards and pieced them together to presume that I feel that spren appear when something changes. This change gives them some energy. But also, I don't think that spren sit around and wait for their 'assigned' change to occur, so that they can be Spiritually siphoned into the Physical Realm. In this way, I feel that 'spren' applies to a large force of Honor that resides in the Spiritual Realm. It is a great centre of energy, but as yet contains no specific 'cases', such as flamespren, deathspren, etc. Instead we will just call it the 'Spren Origin'.

Now, when the change occur, there is a Physical change, which pulls on the Cognitive Realm, as we have discussed in all Realmatic Theory sessions, which in turn pulls on the Spiritual Realm. Think of it like diffusion. Now, as I have discussed, the 'light', or energy, in whichever form it takes, is 'bent' upon leaving or entering a vessel. Now, the Spren Origin may be considered a vessel for this energy, and so would the new place in the Plane of existence, ie, near a kindled fire. As the energy is drawn from the Spren Origin to fill this place, the movement 'bends' it into a new and according shape. If this didn't occur, all spren would be the same. Instead, the produced result is altered energy, in the form of a flamespren. Because the energy the pulled it into existence (that of the fire) isn't great, then it in turn has only limited energy to pull up a mask, and thus appears simply as concentrated energy, or other simple shapes.

Whereas, say, a spren that is pulled by a change, an Honorable change, within a person is given greater energy and thus can form a more complex shape, and can place more of its energy into a Cognitive presence. As the change within the person grows larger, so does the pull between them, and thus the Bond, and also the energy that is granted to the spren by the Spren Origin, as a greater power is pulling more of it into the Physical, Cognitive and also partially Spiritual Planes, in order to tie it to this person. Thus it can form even greater shapes and even greater sentience.

I feel this theory make a load of sense, but if you see any loophole, please don't hesitate to tell me. I'll wait a while for responses before reconsidering it and then maybe posting it as a full Spren theory.

[Telcontar]

Ok, before you get your answer, I shall point out, that I hereby officially revoque the theory that Stormlight during Highstorms is responsible for spren.

Instead I follow the idea that it is Honor's splintering that caused spren to come into existence. We know since the google+ Hangout that Honor is splintered.

While Syl and other Investiture-spren are volontary splinters of Honor, thus existing before the splintering, when Honor finally was splintered (most probably by Odium), his energy washed over Roshar and created spren on the path. It doesn't change much about my theory, but I believe it fits better.

Only one explanation as to why: rainspren are said to be rare. It's in the book, Kaladin is thinking about it. But if Stormlight during Highstorms would be responsible for spren, there should be much more rainspren IMO. And there is flamespren although it is unlikely that a fire will burn during a Highstorm.

I believe that what actually makes a spren 'abnormal' is that it doesn't follow the typical rules of a spren. These rules do not impact 'shape' or the like, as this is merely a human 'Physical' perception, and gives no clue as to what the spren resembles on the Spiritual or Cognitive Planes, and thus is in some way a mask. For this, you could conclude that in order to maintain the 'mask' a spren needs to have the energy to do so.

Of course, I based my theory and definition of spren on the typical rules of a spren, free CA bound to spritual energy.

It is my personal belief that spren are attracted to other freed CAs. They appear when something changes. But change does mean that CAs are freed. When a fire burns, the CAs of the fuel are freed. When you eat something, when your emotions change, when you create something, when you die, there is always CA that are freed from their physical aspect. These free CAs go back to wherever they came from (possibly Shadesmar), attracting spren that formed from similar CAs during the Splintering of Honor. Because a normal spren has no way to perceive the physical realm other than by other CAs.

From that follows my belief that spren tend to search out for a new physical aspect. CAs that are not bound by spirit only fade into non-existence, but spren cannot do so. But as they have no physical aspect, they are incomplete. As CAs they are barely aware of more than what they originally were made of. They detect other CAs freed on their way to non-existence and go there, in hope to find a physical aspect. That's why you can see them when something changes, because they are searching in the physical realm for a physical aspect.

Now, you may have seen my theories around the many boards and pieced them together to presume that I feel that spren appear when something changes. This change gives them some energy. But also, I don't think that spren sit around and wait for their 'assigned' change to occur, so that they can be Spiritually siphoned into the Physical Realm. In this way, I feel that 'spren' applies to a large force of Honor that resides in the Spiritual Realm. It is a great centre of energy, but as yet contains no specific 'cases', such as flamespren, deathspren, etc. Instead we will just call it the 'Spren Origin'.

Did you take into account that Honor is splintered in this? I don't know where you've been these last days, so maybe you missed it? I'd say there is no large force of Honor anymore.

For now that might constitute the major flaw of your theory. However, if you were aware of it, forget what I am saying. In that case I'll just have to oppose you with my own understanding of spren as explained in this post.

[Arcturus he/him]

Alright, I know that I'm completely new here, but I really love your theories about spren. However, there was something I noticed about Syl, and the spren that get measured and defined in interlude 8.

Syl still acts mostly like she's unaware of changes to her life, up UNTIL Kaladin asks for her name on p110:

'"A name," the windspren said, her voice distant. "Yes. I do have a name." She seemed surprised as she looked at Kaladin. "Why do I have a name?"'

From here on, Syl begins to notice that she's acting differently from the other spren. She begins to realize her purpose in the grand scheme of things.

Now, when Ashir and Geranid start defining spren in I-8, they're doing essentially the same thing. In fact, this might almost be a secondary investiture. By cognitively attributing something to the spren that was not attributed to it before, they define it, and this changes the cognitive environment for that spren, and gives them a cognitive definition. Perhaps if you wrote down a name for a spren (like the Protector, who I suspect has become what it is because of its name - it reminds me of the face in the high storms, who might be Tanavast? Or at least some sort of protector for humanity on Roshar, or a protector for all of humankind against Odium) then it would begin to gain sentience from whoever was defining it. Since spren are so common place, people probably rarely name a spren, and if they do, it's only to define it's cognitive association.

So that was a bit rambling. Tell me what you think. I'm not sure on most of these points, but they seem to be making some sort of sense

Edit: OH wow, didn't realize this - maybe the reason why the Protector is even capable of draining their souls is because someone named it the Protector? Thus it takes into account all the people it is meant to protect, and takes a small part of their soul as part of the symbiotic relationship. Perhaps it used to be just a giant spren - maybe the only oceanspren (since there are riverspren), and the people of Kasitor named it when it appeared near their city.

(also part of the edit and completely off topic) Axies says "Blight it all"... which sounds like something from WoT, not tWoK. It would be hilarious if we started having WoT crossovers (which would also be terrible, but hey, one can always hope).

Second Edit: I keep on forgetting things I meant to address. What I'm wondering is if the Parshendi using infused gems in their beards makes them any different from the parshmen. It may be that by some form of magic they can use storm light to communicate with one another over long distances, which makes their songs possible (I'm pretty sure that one song is used to communicate battle strategies from one end of the battlefield to the other). And maybe there are a number of songs, or ways a song can be sung, each one corresponding to a different gemstone and thus a different attribute of those gemstones? I feel like this is something that should actually be addressed (and maybe has already been addressed) somewhere else...

Edited December 11, 2012 by Arcturus

[Nepene he/him]

Syl still acts mostly like she's unaware of changes to her life, up UNTIL Kaladin asks for her name on p110:

From here on, Syl begins to notice that she's acting differently from the other spren. She begins to realize her purpose in the grand scheme of things.

Now, when Ashir and Geranid start defining spren in I-8, they're doing essentially the same thing. In fact, this might almost be a secondary investiture. By cognitively attributing something to the spren that was not attributed to it before, they define it, and this changes the cognitive environment for that spren, and gives them a cognitive definition. Perhaps if you wrote down a name for a spren (like the Protector, who I suspect has become what it is because of its name - it reminds me of the face in the high storms, who might be Tanavast? Or at least some sort of protector for humanity on Roshar, or a protector for all of humankind against Odium) then it would begin to gain sentience from whoever was defining it. Since spren are so common place, people probably rarely name a spren, and if they do, it's only to define it's cognitive association.

So that was a bit rambling. Tell me what you think. I'm not sure on most of these points, but they seem to be making some sort of sense

Edit: OH wow, didn't realize this - maybe the reason why the Protector is even capable of draining their souls is because someone named it the Protector? Thus it takes into account all the people it is meant to protect, and takes a small part of their soul as part of the symbiotic relationship. Perhaps it used to be just a giant spren - maybe the only oceanspren (since there are riverspren), and the people of Kasitor named it when it appeared near their city.

(also part of the edit and completely off topic) Axies says "Blight it all"... which sounds like something from WoT, not tWoK. It would be hilarious if we started having WoT crossovers (which would also be terrible, but hey, one can always hope).

Second Edit: I keep on forgetting things I meant to address. What I'm wondering is if the Parshendi using infused gems in their beards makes them any different from the parshmen. It may be that by some form of magic they can use storm light to communicate with one another over long distances, which makes their songs possible (I'm pretty sure that one song is used to communicate battle strategies from one end of the battlefield to the other). And maybe there are a number of songs, or ways a song can be sung, each one corresponding to a different gemstone and thus a different attribute of those gemstones? I feel like this is something that should actually be addressed (and maybe has already been addressed) somewhere else...

That's a pretty good theory.

“Meaning?” Dunny asked. “I don’t know. Names don’t always have a meaning.” Rock shook his head, displeased. “Lowlanders. How are you to know who you are if your name has no meaning?”

Maybe Rock is wiser in his words than we knew.

Edit. I've been skimming through the book. Names and their value are a huge theme. Kaladin is shocked when Syl knows his name. He initially thinks it isn't worth learning his companions names as they shall all die.

He visited each man, prodding or threatening until the man gave his name. They each resisted. It was as if their names were the last things they owned, and wouldn’t be given up cheaply,

He clutched to these names, repeating each one in his head, holding them like precious gemstones.

Like magical rocks. Coincidence? I think not.

On the Pashendi.

Brandon Sanderson Jung's philosophy was that all people are connected.

Question

Oh, like the dream psychologist?

Brandon Sanderson

I believe that collective unconscious was one of his terms. So it's not hive mind, but there is—there's something the Parshendi can tap into.

The collective unconsciousness is limited. That post has some of the relevant literature on its possible nature from other books compiled.

Edited December 12, 2012 by Nepene

[name_here]

I doubt that the Parshendi depend on gemstones in beards for any of their attributes. Half of them don't even have beards.

[Arcturus he/him]

I doubt that the Parshendi depend on gemstones in beards for any of their attributes. Half of them don't even have beards.

Yeah... I know that theory is really out there.

[Telcontar]

The Emperor's Soul - SPOILERS -

@Arcturus.

It's been a while, I've been busy somehow, so I'll only answer now, sorry for that.

The thing with the defining of spren very probably has something to do with the cognitive realm. In TES it is explained that way:

The Cognitive is how an object is viewed and how it views itself

Of course, Shai only refers to objects that can be Forged. But it applies to everything in the Cosmere. Spren being the soul of objects (spiritual realm) without a (notable) physical aspect, it seems likely that they are easily influenced by someone who notes specific abilities.

Let's compare with Forgery.

To use Forgery, you create a stamp, that needs to fit very special requirements in order to work. By Shai's description, Forgery works because you change the way an object views itself. If it's something that is likely to exist, it changes the appearance (the physical realm). Forgery works better, the nearer you stick to an object's soul. Only the cognitive part is influenced.

Spren lack a strong representation in the physical realm. To change its appearance would be that much easier to perform. So it requires not the intricate carvings but it is sufficient if you only measure it and write it down. It's all about interaction between the three realms.

The Protector, being a spren, has probably been defined in lots of ways. There must be a lot of books that describe its behaviour, how it appears every day at the same spot at the same time.