What was the purpose of Preservation’s ordinary Mists?

[Ale the Metallic Conjurer]

I get Preservation’s purpose for them during Alendi’s era and post-Rashek - put them into M A X I M U M  O V E R D R I V E to Snap normal humans into Allomancers that could eventually burn Ruin’s atium. But I don’t understand why they persisted for 1000 years. This is especially confusing because Rashek knew the Deepness’ appearance, and expected they would return by his death. It doesn’t seem like Rashek every suspected he was living in 1000 years of continental Deepness. This sounds like a big plot hole.

Were the ordinary Mists still a medium for snapping people into Allomancers, or was Snapping a mechanic built into human souls? Or did Preservation “come down” from his shining throne to Snap? And if Rashek inherited so much knowledge from the Well of Ascension, why didn’t he know his God and Master was behind the Deepness?

Edited December 10, 2023 by Ale the Metallic Conjurer

[alder24]

50 minutes ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said:

I get Preservation’s purpose for them during Alendi’s era and post-Rashek - put them into M A X I M U M  O V E R D R I V E to Snap normal humans into Allomancers that could eventually burn Ruin’s atium. But I don’t understand why they persisted for 1000 years. This is especially confusing because Rashek knew the Deepness’ appearance, and expected they would return by his death. It sounds like a big plot hole.

Were the ordinary Mists still a medium for snapping people into Allomancers, or was Snapping a mechanic built into human souls? Or did Preservation “come down” from his shining throne to Snap? And if Rashek inherited so much knowledge from the Well of Ascension, why didn’t he know his God and Master was behind the Deepness?

It's Preservation's investiture manifested in the Physical Realm, his "body" so to speak. Preservation's mind was gone, he used his essence in the form of Mists to act autonomously, without his direct control. It stayed there because it had nowhere else to go - it was partially separated from Preservation, it's physical. It's like a machine that stays dormant, waiting for a certain input to be received and then it's activated and starts working. It was Snapping people only when the Well was getting full, and only when there was a danger of Ruin getting out - if Rashek wasn't killed, Mists would not start Snapping people at that scale. 

Allomancy didn't happen in pre-Rashek times outside of those Snapped by Mists when the Well was close to being full. Allomancy was unknown before Rashek gave Lerasium to kings. Nobody, Mists nor Preservation, was Snapping people into Mistborn in between times when Well was full. Preservation was unable to do that directly, because his mind was almost dead.

Rashek at first didn't know what Mists are (because he first moved the planet closer to the sun to burn them away) but later, as his knowledge grew and he was pointing his attention to Lerasium and Mistborn powers, he certainly realized what Mists truly are, that they are Preservation's power in physical form. Just like Vin didn't know what Lerasium is, but became instantly aware of how deadly Elend's wound was - the knowledge from the Well comes gradually, when you start pointing your attention towards certain things. When Rashek finished using Well's power, he knew what Mists really are. 

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

Chapter Seventy

The Reason for the Mistsickness

So, it finally comes out. I wonder at this numbers plot, as I think many readers will glaze over it and ignore it. I think others will read into it and figure out what it means very quickly, then feel that the reveal here isn't much of a revelation. Hopefully I'll get a majority in the middle who read the clues, don't know what they mean, but are happily surprised when it comes together. That's a difficult line to walk sometimes.

What is going on here is that the mists are awakening the Allomantic potential inside of people. It's very rough on a person for that to come out, and can cause death. Preservation set this all up before he gave his consciousness to imprison Ruin, so it's not a perfect system. It's like a machine left behind by its creator. The catalyst is the return of the power to the Well of Ascension. As soon as that power becomes full, it sets the mists to begin Snapping those who have the potential for Allomancy buried within them.

Many of these people won't be very strong Allomancers. Their abilities were buried too deeply to have come out without the mists' intervention. Others will have a more typical level of power; they might have Snapped earlier, had they gone through enough anguish to bring the power out.

My idea on this is that Allomantic potential is a little like a supersaturated solution. You can suspend a great deal of something like sugar in a liquid when it is hot, then cool it down and the sugar remains suspended. Drop one bit of sugar in there as a catalyst, however, and the rest will fall out as a precipitate.

Allomancy is the same. It's in there, but it takes a reaction—in this case, physical anguish—to trigger it and bring it out. That's because the Allomantic power comes from the extra bit of Preservation inside of humans, that same extra bit that gives us free will. This bit is trapped between the opposing forces of Preservation and Ruin, and to come out and allow it the power to access metals and draw forth energy, it needs to fight its way through the piece of Ruin that is also there inside.

As has been established, Ruin's control over creatures—and, indeed, an Allomancer's control over them—grows weaker when that creature is going through some extreme emotions. (Like the koloss blood frenzy.) This has to do with the relationship between the Cognitive Realm, the Physical Realm, and the Spiritual Realm—of which I don't have time to speak right now.

Suffice it to say that there are people who have Snapped because of intense joy or other emotions. It just doesn't happen as frequently and is more difficult to control.

The Hero of Ages Annotations (March 30, 2010)

 

Spoiler

Andrew The Great (paraphrased)

Before the Ascension, why did the mists appear just as the well was gaining power? Did they come out at other times?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

This one is trickier. From what I got out of it, it's because the mists are a manifestation of Preservation, and physical manifestations of Preservation (including Allomancers) are intended to do two things - stop Ruin, and protect the Well of Ascension. Which are kind of the same thing. So, when the Well was dormant, the mists didn't really have much to do. The Deepness form of the mists is a result of the conscious part of Preservation freaking out and trying to produce a way to protect the well, mostly by producing more Allomancers. That's why the mists do all the funky things in the Well of Ascension and Hero of Ages - they're trying to produce more Allomancers to combat Ruin.

Idaho Falls Signing (June 20, 2009)

 

Spoiler

Andrew The Great (paraphrased)

Why did the mist sickness only happen after the Lord Ruler's Death?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

It didn't. It just happened on a much smaller scale. As you remember, the Lord Ruler basically =stagnation. Because it seemed the Lord Ruler would be taking the power again (as was intended, and as apparently had been done many times before), and because of the extreme stability of the Final Empire, Preservation (though it really only had a shadow of it's mind left) wasn't as freaked out. After the LR died, Preservation began to attempt to create more allomancers for the reasons mentioned in question 7. It also left clues, such as the number 16 everywhere, so that people would know it was preservation doing it, and not just random chance, or ruin. Turns out that that didn't work so well.

Idaho Falls Signing (June 20, 2009)

 

Spoiler

BlackYeti

Can I ask you about the body of a Shard in the Physical Realm? About the different states of matter. What determines the state of matter that they are in? Because I've been reading the bits very carefully, and I haven't noticed much in terms of temperature difference.

Brandon Sanderson

The idea for me working on this was that they transcend-- They permeate everything, right? They permeate all life on all the Realms. And that there are manifestations of them that leak out, and it's kind of like they make-- they appear there in the various states but-- When you say that you've got the gas, you've got the liquid, you've got the solid: but you've also got inside of you, and inside of that plant, and like-- they're everywhere. And so what determines it? In my head it's just like when some of that power permeates, some of it distills, just like water. There's some water in the air, there's some that freezes: that's temperature. But it's not always temperature whether it's in the air, or whether it's falling. Imagine a Spiritual version of humidity, that is influenced by what's happening on the Spiritual Realm and the Cognitive, and that's what you'll get.

Manchester signing (Aug. 6, 2014)

 

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

Also, as a note, Alendi was an Allomancer, as the epigraph notes here. He had to be—he heard the pulsing at the Well of Ascension when nobody else could. "Ah," you might say, "but I thought that you said Allomancy didn't exist before those beads." That isn't 100% true. The legends say that Allomancy came with the Deepness. Alendi was one of the very first Allomancers, and he gained his powers as the mists began to cover the world.

That's important.

Because, of course, he was Snapped by the mists, like is happening to people in this book.

The Hero of Ages Annotations (Feb. 23, 2010)

HoA epigraphs ch 9:

Quote

Allomancy was, indeed, born with the mists. Or, at least, Allomancy began at the same time as the mists' first appearances. When Rashek took the power at the Well of Ascension, he became aware of certain things. Some were whispered to him by Ruin; others were granted to him as an instinctive part of the power.

One of these was an understanding of the Three Metallic Arts. He knew, for instance, that the nuggets of metal in the Chamber of Ascension would make those who ingested them into Mistborn. These were, after all, fractions of the very power in the Well itself.

Edited December 10, 2023 by alder24

[Ale the Metallic Conjurer]

On 12/10/2023 at 12:53 PM, alder24 said:

It's Preservation's investiture manifested in the Physical Realm, his "body" so to speak. Preservation's mind was gone, he used his essence in the form of Mists to act autonomously, without his direct control. It stayed there because it had nowhere else to go - it was partially separated from Preservation, it's physical. It's like a machine that stays dormant, waiting for a certain input to be received and then it's activated and starts working. It was Snapping people only when the Well was getting full, and only when there was a danger of Ruin getting out - if Rashek wasn't killed, Mists would not start Snapping people at that scale. 

Allomancy didn't happen in pre-Rashek times outside of those Snapped by Mists when the Well was close to being full. Allomancy was unknown before Rashek gave Lerasium to kings. Nobody, Mists nor Preservation, was Snapping people into Mistborn in between times when Well was full. Preservation was unable to do that directly, because his mind was almost dead.

Rashek at first didn't know what Mists are (because he first moved the planet closer to the sun to burn them away) but later, as his knowledge grew and he was pointing his attention to Lerasium and Mistborn powers, he certainly realized what Mists truly are, that they are Preservation's power in physical form. Just like Vin didn't know what Lerasium is, but became instantly aware of how deadly Elend's wound was - the knowledge from the Well comes gradually, when you start pointing your attention towards certain things. When Rashek finished using Well's power, he knew what Mists really are. 

  Reveal hidden contents

Brandon Sanderson

Chapter Seventy

The Reason for the Mistsickness

So, it finally comes out. I wonder at this numbers plot, as I think many readers will glaze over it and ignore it. I think others will read into it and figure out what it means very quickly, then feel that the reveal here isn't much of a revelation. Hopefully I'll get a majority in the middle who read the clues, don't know what they mean, but are happily surprised when it comes together. That's a difficult line to walk sometimes.

What is going on here is that the mists are awakening the Allomantic potential inside of people. It's very rough on a person for that to come out, and can cause death. Preservation set this all up before he gave his consciousness to imprison Ruin, so it's not a perfect system. It's like a machine left behind by its creator. The catalyst is the return of the power to the Well of Ascension. As soon as that power becomes full, it sets the mists to begin Snapping those who have the potential for Allomancy buried within them.

Many of these people won't be very strong Allomancers. Their abilities were buried too deeply to have come out without the mists' intervention. Others will have a more typical level of power; they might have Snapped earlier, had they gone through enough anguish to bring the power out.

My idea on this is that Allomantic potential is a little like a supersaturated solution. You can suspend a great deal of something like sugar in a liquid when it is hot, then cool it down and the sugar remains suspended. Drop one bit of sugar in there as a catalyst, however, and the rest will fall out as a precipitate.

Allomancy is the same. It's in there, but it takes a reaction—in this case, physical anguish—to trigger it and bring it out. That's because the Allomantic power comes from the extra bit of Preservation inside of humans, that same extra bit that gives us free will. This bit is trapped between the opposing forces of Preservation and Ruin, and to come out and allow it the power to access metals and draw forth energy, it needs to fight its way through the piece of Ruin that is also there inside.

As has been established, Ruin's control over creatures—and, indeed, an Allomancer's control over them—grows weaker when that creature is going through some extreme emotions. (Like the koloss blood frenzy.) This has to do with the relationship between the Cognitive Realm, the Physical Realm, and the Spiritual Realm—of which I don't have time to speak right now.

Suffice it to say that there are people who have Snapped because of intense joy or other emotions. It just doesn't happen as frequently and is more difficult to control.

The Hero of Ages Annotations (March 30, 2010)

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Andrew The Great (paraphrased)

Before the Ascension, why did the mists appear just as the well was gaining power? Did they come out at other times?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

This one is trickier. From what I got out of it, it's because the mists are a manifestation of Preservation, and physical manifestations of Preservation (including Allomancers) are intended to do two things - stop Ruin, and protect the Well of Ascension. Which are kind of the same thing. So, when the Well was dormant, the mists didn't really have much to do. The Deepness form of the mists is a result of the conscious part of Preservation freaking out and trying to produce a way to protect the well, mostly by producing more Allomancers. That's why the mists do all the funky things in the Well of Ascension and Hero of Ages - they're trying to produce more Allomancers to combat Ruin.

Idaho Falls Signing (June 20, 2009)

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Andrew The Great (paraphrased)

Why did the mist sickness only happen after the Lord Ruler's Death?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

It didn't. It just happened on a much smaller scale. As you remember, the Lord Ruler basically =stagnation. Because it seemed the Lord Ruler would be taking the power again (as was intended, and as apparently had been done many times before), and because of the extreme stability of the Final Empire, Preservation (though it really only had a shadow of it's mind left) wasn't as freaked out. After the LR died, Preservation began to attempt to create more allomancers for the reasons mentioned in question 7. It also left clues, such as the number 16 everywhere, so that people would know it was preservation doing it, and not just random chance, or ruin. Turns out that that didn't work so well.

Idaho Falls Signing (June 20, 2009)

 

  Reveal hidden contents

BlackYeti

Can I ask you about the body of a Shard in the Physical Realm? About the different states of matter. What determines the state of matter that they are in? Because I've been reading the bits very carefully, and I haven't noticed much in terms of temperature difference.

Brandon Sanderson

The idea for me working on this was that they transcend-- They permeate everything, right? They permeate all life on all the Realms. And that there are manifestations of them that leak out, and it's kind of like they make-- they appear there in the various states but-- When you say that you've got the gas, you've got the liquid, you've got the solid: but you've also got inside of you, and inside of that plant, and like-- they're everywhere. And so what determines it? In my head it's just like when some of that power permeates, some of it distills, just like water. There's some water in the air, there's some that freezes: that's temperature. But it's not always temperature whether it's in the air, or whether it's falling. Imagine a Spiritual version of humidity, that is influenced by what's happening on the Spiritual Realm and the Cognitive, and that's what you'll get.

Manchester signing (Aug. 6, 2014)

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Brandon Sanderson

Also, as a note, Alendi was an Allomancer, as the epigraph notes here. He had to be—he heard the pulsing at the Well of Ascension when nobody else could. "Ah," you might say, "but I thought that you said Allomancy didn't exist before those beads." That isn't 100% true. The legends say that Allomancy came with the Deepness. Alendi was one of the very first Allomancers, and he gained his powers as the mists began to cover the world.

That's important.

Because, of course, he was Snapped by the mists, like is happening to people in this book.

The Hero of Ages Annotations (Feb. 23, 2010)

HoA epigraphs ch 9:

Now I have a lot more questions about Preservation’s plans and the history between him and his enemy ^.^

[alder24]

11 hours ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said:

Now I have a lot more questions about Preservation’s plans and the history between him and his enemy ^.^

Feel free to ask  

[Ale the Metallic Conjurer]

6 hours ago, alder24 said:

Feel free to ask  

This answers a longtime assumption of mine: That the advent of Allomancy was a deliberate plot by Preservation to counteract Ruin. Pretty sure its ultimate purpose was to burn all the atium.

Though to me, these WoBs manifest a few holes:

1. What was going on in the thousands of years prior to Rashek's Ascension? This means the Mists would've been Snapping people ever since the 1000 years after Ruin's imprisonment. So this has major implications for the true history of the first Allomancers, as well as the length of Preservation's planning.

2. According to the metal plate read in HoA chapter 4, Rashek called the Mists foul, hateful, scornful. If he knew his God and Master made the Mists, why did he say this?

3. Oh my rusting god, I really need to make a list of Preservation's plans. There are so many and it doesn't help that Scadrial's history has so many holes.

4. I hate Scadrial's history. We need answers.

Edited December 16, 2023 by Ale the Metallic Conjurer

[alder24]

11 minutes ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said:

That the advent of Allomancy was a deliberate plot by Preservation to counteract Ruin. Pretty sure its ultimate purpose was to burn all the atium.

No, Invested Arts in general manifests naturally on a planet due to interactions between Shards and the planet and people's perception. Shards don't create them directly. They can however alter them to some degree. Thus the Snapping mechanism via Mists was a direct alteration done by Preservation. He also did Splinter Ruin, stealing part of his power, while having in mind that people will burn it when the time comes. But Allomancy was a tool that existed and was simply used by Preservation. He might have left Lerasium beads near the Well for somebody to start strong Allomantic genes, so that all of the Mistborn Era 1 story could happen - we don't know where Lerasium came from.

16 minutes ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said:

1. What was going on in the thousands of years prior to Rashek's Ascension? This means the Mists would've been Snapping people ever since the 1000 years after Ruin's imprisonment. So this has major implications for the true history of the first Allomancers, as well as the length of Preservation's planning.

We don't know. We know there were not many Ascendants prior to Rashek - at most 9-10, or Rashek could have been the first one to Ascend at the Well. This means that every 1000 years, when the Well was full, the Mists started Snapping people, then after the power was taken and used, they simply stopped, becoming dormant again. But just like in HoA, just because Mists were Snapping people doesn't mean they knew they were now Allomancers. Even Alendi didn't know that and he was a Seeker - he could hear the Well pulsing, but didn't know that's because of Allomancy. And because those powers were not given by Lerasium, there are no strong genes to be given to the next generation, thus there would have been no Allomantic lines at all. Those Snapped by Mists were weak Allomancers, weaker in power (1st WoB in my original post). 

32 minutes ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said:

2. According to the metal plate read in HoA chapter 4, Rashek called the Mists foul, hateful, scornful. If he knew his God and Master made the Mists, why did he say this?

His god and master?? Rashek was dismissive of Preservation. It wasn't his god and master - at least not after he learned that Preservation is mostly dead and impotent. Rashek was the god in his own mind. Have you read Secret History? SH ch 1-2:

Spoiler

Quote

Fuzz cleared his throat. “It is my duty to be with you as you transition. Don’t be worried, or—”
“Be silent,” the Lord Ruler said
[...]
“Here?” The Lord Ruler laughed. “With an impotent mouse and a halfblooded rat? Please.”

 

It's also possible that Rashek didn't fully know that Mists were Snapping people giving them Allomancy. In that case he would know they are Preservation's power but they cover the land in the daytime, choking the sunlight and killing crops, not to mention people, thus he would judge them as "a foul, hateful thing."

Or he knew that Ruin encouraged them, made them more violent and deadly and that's why he called them that. It wasn't Mists and Preservation that were killing, it was Ruin who pushed them in that direction. HoA ch 81:

Quote

Snapping has always been the dark side of Allomancy. A person's genetic endowment may make them a potential Allomancer, but in order for the power to manifest, the body must be put through extraordinary trauma. Though Elend spoke of how terrible his beating was, during our day, unlocking Allomancy in a person was easier than it had once been, for we had the infusion of Preservation's power into the human bloodlines via the nuggets granted to nobility by the Lord Ruler.

When Preservation set up the mists, he was afraid of Ruin escaping his prison. In those early days, before the Ascension, the mists began to Snap people as they did during our time—but this action of the mists was one of the only ways to awaken Allomancy in a person, for the genetic attributes were buried too deeply to be brought out by a simple beating. The mists of that day created Mistings only, of course—there were no Mistborn until the Lord Ruler made use of the nuggets.

The people misinterpreted the mists' intent, as the process of Snapping Allomancers caused some—particularly the young and the old—to die. This hadn't been Preservation's desire, but he'd given up most of his consciousness to form Ruin's prison, and the mists had to be left to work as best they could without specific direction.

Ruin, subtle as ever, knew that he couldn't stop the mists from doing their work. However, he could do the unexpected and encourage them. And so, he helped make them stronger. That brought death to the plants of the world, and created the threat that became known as the Deepness.

Are Mists referred to in books as "it" or "they/them"? In HoA epigraphs Mists are called "they/them" (like above), but the message is "it". "It" and "thing" are also what Rashek calls Ruin, which was on two other plates. Vetitan plate:

Quote

By now, the mists have likely come again. Such a foul, hateful thing. Scorn it. Don’t go out in it. It seeks to destroy us all. 
[...]
Be careful what you speak, it can hear what you say. It can read what you write. Only your thoughts are safe.

Urteau plate:

Quote

And still I worry. It has proven far more clever than I had assumed, infecting my thoughts, making me see and feel things I do not wish to. It is so subtle, so careful. I cannot see how it could cause my death, but still I worry.

Fadrex plate:

Quote

I do not know how to defeat it. The only thing I can think of is to keep it at bay by taking the power at the Well for myself when it returns. [...]
It has been my constant companion, the voice that whispers to me always, telling me to destroy, begging me to give it freedom.
I fear that it has corrupted my thoughts. It cannot sense what I think, but it can speak inside of my head. [...]
The thing has whispered to me that I am a fool to expose myself by writing this and letting others see it.
That is primarily why I decided to go through with the creation of this plate. Doing so seemed to make the thing angry. [...]
I have no advice to give. It is more powerful than I am. It is more powerful than this world. It claims to have created this world, in fact. It will destroy us all eventually.

It can simply be that Rashek was calling Ruin as "a foul, hateful thing," not Mists. That's the simplest and most likely explanation even if the phrasing of that plate is a little weird.

1 hour ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said:

3. Oh my rusting god, I really need to make a list of Preservation's plans. There are so many and it doesn't help that Scadrial's history has so many holes.

It doesn't also help that by this time even Preservation didn't know his own plans. 

In general the plan was to delay Ruin until someone appears that could Ascend to both Ruin and Preservation.

Spoiler

Kaimipono

What was Vin supposed to do at the end of Well of Ascension? How exactly did not-using the power, end up releasing Ruin? I still don't get how that all worked. Can you explain it?

Brandon Sanderson

What was she supposed to do? Well, this is difficult to answer, since the prophecies have been changed and shifted so much. Originally, the prophesies intended for a person to go take the power every thousand years and become a protector of mankind for a period of time. Someone to keep an eye on Ruin in Preservation's absence and watch over the world as he would have done. Imagine an avatar who arrives every thousand years and lives for their lifetime blessing the people with the power of Preservation, renewing Ruin's prison, and generally being a force for protection. (Note that Ruin wouldn't have gotten out if the prison wasn't renewed, he'd simply have been able to touch the world a little bit more.) Obviously, it changed a LOT during the years that Ruin was playing with things.

What should she have done? Well, Ruin's release was inevitable. Even if she hadn't let him go, the world would have 'wound down' eventually. The ashfalls would have grown worse over the centuries, and the next buildup of the Well might not have come in time for them to do anything. Or, perhaps, mankind would have found a way to adapt. But Ruin was going to get himself out eventually, so the choice Vin made was all right. There weren't really any good choices at this point. She could have decided to take the power and become a 'good' Lord Ruler, trying to keep the world from falling apart. Of course, she would have had to make herself immortal with Hemalurgy to make that work right. And since she was already tainted, chances are good she wouldn't have ended up any better than the Lord Ruler himself.

Hero of Ages Q&A - Time Waster's Guide (Oct. 15, 2008)

 

1 hour ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said:

4. I hate Scadrial's history. We need answers.

One day we may get them. It would be boring to get all the answers now. 

[Ale the Metallic Conjurer]

On 12/16/2023 at 3:01 PM, alder24 said:

No, Invested Arts in general manifests naturally on a planet due to interactions between Shards and the planet and people's perception. Shards don't create them directly. They can however alter them to some degree. Thus the Snapping mechanism via Mists was a direct alteration done by Preservation. He also did Splinter Ruin, stealing part of his power, while having in mind that people will burn it when the time comes. But Allomancy was a tool that existed and was simply used by Preservation. He might have left Lerasium beads near the Well for somebody to start strong Allomantic genes, so that all of the Mistborn Era 1 story could happen - we don't know where Lerasium came from.

I guess that’s good to know? But that’s not where I was going. Even though the Shards’ magic systems might exist as a natural interaction, it doesn’t necessarily mean humanity will automatically have the knowledge to access them. 

For example, it doesn’t seem like Hemalurgy was in use until Ruin manipulated Rashek and other ancient Scadrians. This makes sense because Hemalurgy is a very, very complex Art with a lot of hypothetical results. Feruchemy’s history is a mystery, but I have a headcanon that a Hero of an Age bestowed knowledge of Feruchemy to the “modern” Terris people.

And it doesn’t appear that people were consciously burning Allomantic metals until Rashek disseminated knowledge of the Art. 

The Metallic Arts always existed in the minds of the Shards, but weren’t in play on a mortal scale until the recent cycles of their conflict. That’s the sense I’m getting from the WoBs and HoA’s plot.

 

On 12/16/2023 at 3:01 PM, alder24 said:

We don't know. We know there were not many Ascendants prior to Rashek - at most 9-10, or Rashek could have been the first one to Ascend at the Well. This means that every 1000 years, when the Well was full, the Mists started Snapping people, then after the power was taken and used, they simply stopped, becoming dormant again. But just like in HoA, just because Mists were Snapping people doesn't mean they knew they were now Allomancers. Even Alendi didn't know that and he was a Seeker - he could hear the Well pulsing, but didn't know that's because of Allomancy. And because those powers were not given by Lerasium, there are no strong genes to be given to the next generation, thus there would have been no Allomantic lines at all. Those Snapped by Mists were weak Allomancers, weaker in power (1st WoB in my original post). 

There were definitely Ascendants prior to Rashk. Ruin mentioned that Preservation’s mental decline existed for thousands of years. But I don’t understand why Brandon is being so secretive about these Ascendants. Maybe they’ll be important to Era 3??? I badly want to know more. Good thing there’s fanfiction lol. 

 

On 12/16/2023 at 3:01 PM, alder24 said:

His god and master?? Rashek was dismissive of Preservation. It wasn't his god and master - at least not after he learned that Preservation is mostly dead and impotent. Rashek was the god in his own mind. Have you read Secret History? SH ch 1-2:

I haven’t read Secret History. But… huh, this is weird. I always thought Rashek was on a mission from Preservation. Guess he was just a self righteous scumbag lol. Or maybe he lost faith in Preservation over time? It would fit with Mistborn’s theme of losing faith in God. And he didn’t seem to discourage the first few Generations from worshipping Preservation. Idk lol. 

Though I still think Preservation was his God and Master, but in an unexpected way. I believe Preservation subtly handcrafted the Final Empire and the rise of its Allomancers, with Rashek unknowngly dancing to his tune. It would fit with Rashek having the seemingly unique knowledge of atium’s true nature, or the Shards’ “blindness” to metal, or glimpsing into the future with the Well’s power. I think there are hidden layers to Preservation and Ruin’s plans for Alendi and Rashek. I think Kwaan was a deliberate pawn too, but that’s a deeper rabbit hole hehe.

 

On 12/16/2023 at 3:01 PM, alder24 said:

 

Quote

Fuzz cleared his throat. “It is my duty to be with you as you transition. Don’t be worried, or—”
“Be silent,” the Lord Ruler said
[...]
“Here?” The Lord Ruler laughed. “With an impotent mouse and a halfblooded rat? Please.”

 

It's also possible that Rashek didn't fully know that Mists were Snapping people giving them Allomancy. In that case he would know they are Preservation's power but they cover the land in the daytime, choking the sunlight and killing crops, not to mention people, thus he would judge them as "a foul, hateful thing."

Or he knew that Ruin encouraged them, made them more violent and deadly and that's why he called them that. It wasn't Mists and Preservation that were killing, it was Ruin who pushed them in that direction. HoA ch 81:

Rashek’s paranoia is like an onion. It has layers lmao.

Personally, I think Harmony was trying to say Ruin encouraged the Mists to shroud the world, killing plants. But the Mists were unintentionally killing people because of Preservation’s lack of direction.

 

On 12/16/2023 at 3:01 PM, alder24 said:

It can simply be that Rashek was calling Ruin as "a foul, hateful thing," not Mists. That's the simplest and most likely explanation even if the phrasing of that plate is a little weird.

Sounds like the best explanation.

[Treamayne]

On 12/10/2023 at 12:05 PM, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said:

Were the ordinary Mists still a medium for snapping people into Allomancers, or was Snapping a mechanic built into human souls? Or did Preservation “come down” from his shining throne to Snap? And if Rashek inherited so much knowledge from the Well of Ascension, why didn’t he know his God and Master was behind the Deepness?

I haven't gone through all the weeds of the conversation so far, but it seems like the main point has been obscured by details. WoB:

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

Chapter Seventy-Nine

The Mists Chose Someone

There's a lot more going on behind the scenes than even the author of these epigraphs knows. Reasons why Vin was chosen, and why the power of Preservation needed a new mind to control it.

The author is right in that Preservation did need someone to control its power, and it did seek for a host in which to invest itself. It began this search with what mind it had left about sixteen years before the return of the power to the Well of Ascension, just as it began a search for a new host before the return of the power the previous time.

Unfortunately, just as Ruin took control and manipulated Alendi, he took control and manipulated Vin.

The Hero of Ages Annotations (May 13, 2010)

The Mists, originally, were the power of Preservation seeking a new Vessel.

• Things Happened (Well becoming full, making them stronger and starting to Snap people)
• More things happened (Ruin messing with that and changing them into the Deepness)
• Even More Things Happened (Rashek messing up the world and realizing he could not banish the Mists entirely - or maybe learning that he shouldn't)
• And so on, and so forth. 

All those details, changes, and manipulations seem, to me, secondary and tertiary to the original Intent for the Mist to find a new Vessel of Preservation.

Trimmed WoB:

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

AonDor is based on the fact that the Dor, which is an amalgamation of Dominion and Devotion, has been pressed together and stuffed into the Cognitive Realm by Odium who didn't want it to gain sentience, as Investiture will do if it is left alone. It will either seek someone to be its Vessel or it will gain sentience. 

Arcanum Unbounded Chicago signing (Dec. 6, 2016)

1 hour ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said:

Personally, I think Harmony was trying to say Ruin encouraged the Mists to shroud the world, killing plants. But the Mists were unintentionally killing people because of Preservation’s lack of direction.

It's not a lack of direction, or an intent to kill.

Mists Snapped people. Snapping, in Era 1, was violent and traumatic. Some people simply could not survive that process. 

Edited December 18, 2023 by Treamayne
SPAG

[alder24]

1 hour ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said:

For example, it doesn’t seem like Hemalurgy was in use until Ruin manipulated Rashek and other ancient Scadrians.

Alendi was spiked. Hemalurgy was used before Rashek:

Spoiler

Vegasdev

Alendi's "Piercings of the Hero"?

Brandon Sanderson

This is part of the manipulation Ruin did during the classical era on Scadrial, before the coming of the Lord Ruler. Piercings, and Hemalurgy, were part of the world before the coming of Allomancy in its modern form. Then, they were seen as a means of communicating with deity—which, indeed, they were. Ruin manipulated this to make sure any Hero of Ages who came would be under his influence. The reference is included mostly to indicate that yes, Alendi was under Ruin's influence. He ignored Rashek, though. (At least, right up to the moment when everything went 'wrong' for Ruin, when Rashek killed his chosen Hero of Ages.)

Hero of Ages Q&A - Time Waster's Guide (Oct. 15, 2008)

 

1 hour ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said:

Even though the Shards’ magic systems might exist as a natural interaction, it doesn’t necessarily mean humanity will automatically have the knowledge to access them. 

Yes.

1 hour ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said:

Feruchemy’s history is a mystery, but I have a headcanon that a Hero of an Age bestowed knowledge of Feruchemy to the “modern” Terris people.

It's likely. There is a way to grant Feruchemy with the use of Scadrian god metals. I'm personally leaning more towards Preservation granting them this ability/knowledge because he needed Terris prophecies to be remembered.

Spoiler

Yoitsthew

Would a lerasium/atium alloy create a Feruchemist, rather than an atium misting?? What with the way that it’s an alloy of god metals, and the way that lerasium can be used to acquire other magics? As far as I know there is no lerasium left currently, so this one is also just for my curiosity!!

Brandon Sanderson

You can use the god metals from Scadrial to make a Feruchemist, but I have to RAFO the actual means.

General Reddit 2020 (Sept. 30, 2020)

 

1 hour ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said:

And it doesn’t appear that people were consciously burning Allomantic metals until Rashek disseminated knowledge of the Art. 

You are correct.

1 hour ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said:

The Metallic Arts always existed in the minds of the Shards, but weren’t in play on a mortal scale until the recent cycles of their conflict. That’s the sense I’m getting from the WoBs and HoA’s plot.

I get you now. That very possible. 

1 hour ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said:

There were definitely Ascendants prior to Rashk. Ruin mentioned that Preservation’s mental decline existed for thousands of years.

Sure, but it's still "thousands of years" when it has been only 2000 years with Rashek and Vin as Ascendants. We simply don't know. It's more likely that there were others, but we have no confirmation of that.

1 hour ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said:

But I don’t understand why Brandon is being so secretive about these Ascendants. Maybe they’ll be important to Era 3??? I badly want to know more. Good thing there’s fanfiction lol. 

There is always another secret. Giving too many answers now will leave fewer things to reveal in the future, when they're needed, when the plot is focused on them. Plus not everything has to be uncovered - there are so many unknowns in Earth's history that will never be known.

Don't expect Brandon to write any prequel to Mistborn, he's not liking them. At best we might get some prequel story in the form of another media, like games.

Spoiler

Logan

I really enjoyed Warbreaker, especially the history of the Scholars and their relationships. Have you considered writing a prequel novel that would take place when Vasher, et al were much younger?

Brandon Sanderson

People ask me for prequels all the time. They've asked for MISTBORN prequels, ELANTRIS prequels, and now WARBREAKER prequels. My general answer to this is probably not—just because I as a reader don't like prequels. I'm one of those readers that if the ending is spoiled for me, in many ways that can ruin the book. Because of that it's hard for me to decide to write a prequel.

When I plan my books I design them to have a beginning, a middle, an end, and a past and a future. I know what happened in the past. I know what will happen in the future. I could always write that, and I won't rule it out 100% completely. But telling the story of the Five Scholars is not something I sat down to do with WARBREAKER. I had that all worked out; I knew what they did. The exciting story I wanted to tell is the one that happened in the book. There is a good chance of a sequel, but a prequel is unlikely. If I did do a prequel it would probably be in short story form posted for free on my website.

Goodreads Fantasy Book Discussion Warbreaker Q&A (Jan. 18, 2010)

 

Spoiler

WhoisJohnFaust

How much of a Mistborn prequel would the game have been? Are we talking; post pit Kelsier, or more of a Lord Ruler's first days taking over the other nations? Something in the middle?

Brandon Sanderson

It was set early in the Final Empire's existence--second or third century, I believe. So a pretty deep in the past prequel.

General Reddit 2018 (Oct. 5, 2018)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

Do you have any plans of writing any prequels for the Mistborn [series]?

Brandon Sanderson

No, not right now. One of the reasons that-- I have to put an asterisk on that. I did write out a prequel story happening hundreds of years earlier that was going to be the video game, that ended up never getting made. So there's a chance I will do something with that,a graphic novel or something. So there is a chance. What I won't probably tell is the story that you read in the epigraphs, the story of Rashek and Alendi and all those things, because I feel like that story is told best the way it is in the books, that you get it revealed as it's going along. If I told it again, I feel like it would just be a rehash of that. I can see myself telling other stories potentially, but I am the type that generally likes to keep moving forward. There are some great prequels out there to books that I love, but mostly I like sequels, so I like to move forward. Not impossible, but yeah.

The Great American Read: Other Worlds with Brandon Sanderson (Oct. 25, 2018)

 

1 hour ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said:

I haven’t read Secret History. But… huh, this is weird. I always thought Rashek was on a mission from Preservation. Guess he was just a self righteous scumbag lol. Or maybe he lost faith in Preservation over time? It would fit with Mistborn’s theme of losing faith in God. And he didn’t seem to discourage the first few Generations from worshipping Preservation. Idk lol. 

He immediately started hunting down and destroying every religion in the world, targeting Terris' religion the most. He claimed to be the god of this world, he alone, and created a new religion, focused around himself, without even mentioning Ruin and Preservation. He was a megalomaniac with a god complex. 

He might have tolerated the Kandra religion because they were still under his direct control, because of the First Contract. They had to obey him, he wasn't worried they would spread their religion. Moreover they played a pivotal role in his plans to fight Ruin, if he were to escape - they were keeping Atium save, they were his spies among Hemalurgic constructs - they need to know what's at stakes and why their role is so important. At least the First Generation knew that.

The knowledge about Ruin and Preservation among Kandra and the First came most likely from Rashek himself - that's because in Kwaan's inscription in WoA there was no mention of them, there was no mention of Ruin being trapped in the Well, and Kwaan came to this conclusion alone. If the Teriss people during Rashek's time had known about all of this, Kwaan would have known that too, and the whole deal with Alendi would have been so much simpler. Instead this was most likely forgotten by this time, changed by Ruin, who wiped Preservation out of people's minds. The First Generation likely didn't know that before Rashek Ascended. It means Rashek told them all of this because he got aware of this while holding the power of the Well. 

The First Generation simply knew too much - they knew what Mists and Atium are, they knew Ruin was imprisoned in the Well. If this had been a common religious knowledge Rashek wouldn't have tried to burn Mists away, or Kwaan would have been aware of Ruin.

1 hour ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said:

Though I still think Preservation was his God and Master, but in an unexpected way. I believe Preservation subtly handcrafted the Final Empire and the rise of its Allomancers, with Rashek unknowngly dancing to his tune.

No. Read Secret History.

1 hour ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said:

It would fit with Rashek having the seemingly unique knowledge of atium’s true nature, or the Shards’ “blindness” to metal, or glimpsing into the future with the Well’s power.

The knowledge came from simply holding so much of the power of Preservation, from Ascending to it and using it. His mind was expanded by so much power and he learned a lot of things. It's not because Preservation was directly talking to him or giving him this knowledge. He would be blinded by metal as well when he was holding the power of the Well - it's a simple deduction.

HoA ch 9:

Quote

Allomancy was, indeed, born with the mists. Or, at least, Allomancy began at the same time as the mists' first appearances. When Rashek took the power at the Well of Ascension, he became aware of certain things. Some were whispered to him by Ruin; others were granted to him as an instinctive part of the power.

One of these was an understanding of the Three Metallic Arts. He knew, for instance, that the nuggets of metal in the Chamber of Ascension would make those who ingested them into Mistborn. These were, after all, fractions of the very power in the Well itself.

 

1 hour ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said:

Personally, I think Harmony was trying to say Ruin encouraged the Mists to shroud the world, killing plants. But the Mists were unintentionally killing people because of Preservation’s lack of direction.

Kind of both. Some old, weak or sick people were dying because Mists were choosing at random and those people had worse chances at surviving such a traumatic event (it was said in that quote). But Ruin in general did encourage them to cause more harm. However the Mists staying during the day were programmed more or less by Preservation. They were meant to stay to Snap people to give them powers. HoA ch :

Quote

"Bounce around for a yes," Elend said. [...]
"Is the other thing causing the ashfalls?"
This time, it waved. Okay.
"Is it causing the mists to come in the day too?"
No motion.
"Are you causing the mists to come in the day?"
It seemed to pause in thought at this one, then it waved about less vigorously than before.
Is that a "maybe"? Elend wondered. Or a "partially"?
The creature fell still. It was getting harder and harder to see it in the mists. 

[Ale the Metallic Conjurer]

Thanks for the insight! I can go back to reading Alloy of Law! Excited to see y’all thoughts throughout my Era 2 read!

 

On 12/10/2023 at 12:53 PM, alder24 said:

As has been established, Ruin's control over creatures—and, indeed, an Allomancer's control over them—grows weaker when that creature is going through some extreme emotions. (Like the koloss blood frenzy.) This has to do with the relationship between the Cognitive Realm, the Physical Realm, and the Spiritual Realm—of which I don't have time to speak right now.

Suffice it to say that there are people who have Snapped because of intense joy or other emotions. It just doesn't happen as frequently and is more difficult to control.

I don’t remember Ruin struggling to control Hemalurgic constructs. But this is interesting and hammers in home the balance between Ruin and Preservation. I could be very wrong about this, but now I believe if either Shard completely created humanity rather than working together, they could exert perfect control over creatures.

[Treamayne]

3 hours ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said:

I don’t remember Ruin struggling to control Hemalurgic constructs.

There are a number of subtle indications, but the most blatent was in HoA Ch 69:

Spoiler

Another dagger? Marsh thought. However, the man pulled out a folded sheet. Metal?

Marsh had a sudden and overpowering desire to grab that sheet of metal. The soldier struggled to crumple the thin sheet, to destroy its contents, but Marsh screamed and brought his axe down on the man’s arm, shearing it off. Marsh raised the axe again, and this time took off the man’s head.

He didn’t stop, however, the blood fury driving him to slam his axe into the corpse over and over again. In the back of his head, he could feel Ruin exulting in the death—yet, he could also sense frustration. Ruin tried to pull him away from the killing, to make him grab that slip of metal, but in the grip of the bloodlust, Marsh couldn’t be controlled. Just like koloss.

Couldn’t be controlled. . . . That’s—

He froze, Ruin taking control once again. 

3 hours ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said:

could exert perfect control over creatures.

Doubtful, because the difficulty has to do with Cognitive Aspects not because they worked together to make Scadrial's population. It's also why emotional Allomancy is what is used to take control in the first place.

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

Emotional Allomancy, for example, works by lapping against the outsides of someone's cognitive self, influencing you the way music might stir your soul. So being inside a living body wouldn't necessarily stop it--you'd just have more interference. Kind of like how you can still hear music outside if it's loud enough.

Actual mind control in the cosmere requires you to get INSIDE the soul, which you've seen happen frequently enough. There has to be a gap or an opening.

Or, conversely, you just have to be so powerful that you can push through the interference.

/r/books AMA 2015 (July 14, 2015)

 

Edited December 19, 2023 by Treamayne
SPAG