Technologies on the coppermind

[Nightstar The Bright]

So I have a question, how is the copper mind handling/going to handle technology? Are specific ‘investiture using’ technologies gonna have their own pages/ are they gonna be on a parent page under the title of technology? 

Take Scadrian airships for example, where are they being/going to be placed? I could see them being on the pages of the southern Scadrian peoples. However it could be argued they should have their own page, as airships are quite important and have a lot of information. I think (please correct me if I’m wrong) they (currently) don’t really have a place.

I see this as a major problem with the coppermind as well, we don’t have a great handle of technology/where they should be written down. I don’t really see the coppermind ignoring it though, and just writing down the broader mechanics.

 

[Treamayne]

1 hour ago, Nightstar The Bright said:

I see this as a major problem with the coppermind as well, we don’t have a great handle of technology/where they should be written down. I don’t really see the coppermind ignoring it though, and just writing down the broader mechanics.

Do you mean these pages: Brunstell and Wilg? I don't think there is a "common page" yet (like the Rosharan Fabrial page) though they are mentioned on the SoScad #Technology section. The problem is, we don't have enough data to generalize yet. An "Airship" page would be the Brunstell page with the name removed. For example, we know that Allik is Malwish and the Brunstell is an example of a Malwish Airship - but Iyatil is descended from "Hunters" and we don't even know that country's name, much less how their Airships differ from Malwish Airships (other than the crashed one at the Sovereign's Temple was a Hunter Ship). 

I would imagine that as Era Three kicks off we will start having enough data and WoBs to start fleshing things out - both in Scadrial Fabrials and those seen in various Secret Projects. 

Also, I would caution against using "technology" for Fabrials (or Magi-tech) as Sanderson has indicated that the reason Fabrial becomes a cosmere-wide/multiple investiture term is to distinguish base technology (automobiles, lights, guns) from investiture technology. WoB:

Spoiler

FirstSelector

So, do you have a name, like an in-world name for a large magical construction, like the things that picks Elantrians?

Brandon Sanderson

That was why I invented the term "fabrial." It will become widespread eventually, as the term for meaning, kind of, magic-type devices in the cosmere. That's not what you call it right now, but you can start calling them all fabrials.

Oathbringer San Francisco signing (Nov. 15, 2017)

 

[Nightstar The Bright]

12 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Do you mean these pages: Brunstell and Wilg? I don't think there is a "common page" yet (like the Rosharan Fabrial page) though they are mentioned on the SoScad #Technology section. The problem is, we don't have enough data to generalize yet. An "Airship" page would be the Brunstell page with the name removed. For example, we know that Allik is Malwish and the Brunstell is an example of a Malwish Airship - but Iyatil is descended from "Hunters" and we don't even know that country's name, much less how their Airships differ from Malwish Airships (other than the crashed one at the Sovereign's Temple was a Hunter Ship). 

Brunstell and Wilg are individual airships, we also have Daal’s warship and BOM has some information on the hunter’s ship as well. I think a common page would do good, because we actually have a lot of information. (Yes, mostly Malwish airships but still, the page could be a Malwish one) Among these four ships I think we definitely have enough information (It doesn’t have to be 2000 words and it certainly wouldn’t just be a brunstell page)

 

12 hours ago, Treamayne said:

I would imagine that as Era Three kicks off we will start having enough data and WoBs to start fleshing things out - both in Scadrial Fabrials and those seen in various Secret Projects

Well I think your right here, but I don’t see why we shouldn’t begin now, we already have a chunk of information.

 

12 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Also, I would caution against using "technology" for Fabrials (or Magi-tech) as Sanderson has indicated that the reason Fabrial becomes a cosmere-wide/multiple investiture term is to distinguish base technology (automobiles, lights, guns) from investiture technology. WoB:

Yes your right here, my bad for using technology. I should’ve used Fabrial.

[Starwatcher]

Technology (Gravatonics and Holosight are actually the only two pages missing infoboxes) and subjects without a proper name are definitely some of the things we struggle with most. Long-term, yeah, a section on the Southern Sacdrian page is definitely not where general information about this technology should be living; we probably want some sort of Allomancy-powered aircraft page (and I imagine at some point we'll want one for the Surgebinding fabrial based ones as well?), but I'm not sure what exactly the best name is.

[Nightstar The Bright]

6 hours ago, Starwatcher said:

Technology (Gravatonics and Holosight are actually the only two pages missing infoboxes) and subjects without a proper name are definitely some of the things we struggle with most

I can see that, and I’ve felt that myself when editing.

 

6 hours ago, Starwatcher said:

Long-term, yeah, a section on the Southern Sacdrian page is definitely not where general information about this technology should be living;

Indeed, this was my point, but I think it’s better to start this process right now, as we do actually have a nice amount of fabrials.

 

6 hours ago, Starwatcher said:

Allomancy-powered aircraft page (and I imagine at some point we'll want one for the Surgebinding fabrial based ones as well?), but I'm not sure what exactly the best name is.

Something along the lines of ‘Scadrians Airships’, this is what the current TLM and BOM varieties are called.

[Truthwatch3r she/her]

I don't feel like I have much concrete to add to this discussion, but just to lay it out to help organize my thoughts and see if everyone is on the same page: 

Eventually, fabrial will become a cosmere-wide term; currently the only place I think it is used outside of Roshar is (yumi)

Spoiler

Design referring to the hion-powered box that reads spiritwebs

The fabrial page, then, could become a cosmere-wide hub for Investiture-based technology. Is this somothing we're wanting to do now, before the term fabrial has canonically been used on Scadrial? (For the record, I'm fine with that, based on the wob mentioned above, but it will require some restructuring to implement. For one, the infobox template will need to be updated to allow for non-Light/spren-based fabrials. For another, the current fabrial page will need to be moved to a Roshar-specific location and a broader description written for a new page.)

The first problem I see right now is that we need to find a consensus as far as what to name these umbrella pages one step down from fabrial. (Split it up by world name? Magic system name? Etc) That seems like the first hurdle to cross before we get to making a page specifically for the airships or the medallions. From what I'm reading in the discussion above, I think this will require such a level of categorization to keep things straight.

Then, as far as Allomancy-powered technology goes, do we currently have examples other than the airships? (We may - my mind is just drawing a blank right now because all I can think of is Wax's use of his guns, but that's different to me so long as they also function without Allomancy.) We do have an example of Feruchemy-powered technology with the medallions, though there currently is no dedicated page for those either. I'm asking because those things could live on a Scadrian fabrial page (or whatever it ends up being named) for now until we get more examples of Scadrian fabrials or until we can vote on names for those pages.

(We do have the ability to move pages if we decide on a better name later, but historically it has been notoriously difficult to come to a decision about things that don't have a clear canonical name. There was a similar suggestion about a Scadrian technology page that was made about a year ago in our Keeper chat, as well as brief discussion of a medallion page, but we obviously got busy with other things, and no one followed up on either one of those.)

[Treamayne]

3 hours ago, Truthwatch3r said:

The first problem I see right now is that we need to find a consensus as far as what to name these umbrella pages one step down from fabrial. (Split it up by world name? Magic system name? Etc)

I would suggest that we base on Realmatics (I'm not sure if that solves the page name issue or not) - since we see that Awakened Fabrials are similar (whether Awakened by Breath, or other mechanisms) - SP 1,3,4 Spoilers:

Spoiler

Fort's Board (Tress), Father Machine (Yumi), Awakened Steelmind (TSM), Theorized Awakened Difference Engine (TLM)

Then there is the (theoretical) Bondsmithing Fabrial that is Elantris, the Elsecalling Fabrials Galladon mentions to Raoden about how Aon Tia was used before the Reod.

Obviously there are at least two types of Spren Fabrials - captured in a Gemheart or True Spren Fabrials (SP Spoilers)

Spoiler

Which seem related to the Spirit Fabrials that Yoki-hijo craft (Yumi)

And you have the (theoretical) Hemalurgy Fabrials of Medallions crafted with excisors - which are then also used in conjunction with Allomancy and Feruchemy (Wax powering a Primer cube with A-Steel to fly, and the other F-Medallions - Weight, Connection, Heat). Though we don't know if the Primer CUbes themselves are in the same class, or different, but are shown to be Allomantic Fabrials (especially how Marasi uses them as A-Cadmium Grenades). We also saw the A-Bronze Seeker fabrial in Sixth of the Dusk, used to find the Aviar - which seems related to Vstim's Alerter Fabrial they used in Shinovar.

In fact, Navani's notes about Metal use in Rosharan Spren Fabrials may indicate that Metallic arts may be less about having Allomantic or Ferchemical fabrials, than their metal's influence of a broader range of Realmatic fabrials (SP4 Spoiler):

Spoiler

Such as Nomad's Awakened Steelmind mention - is that Steel's Ferchemical trait affecting an Awakened Fabrial, or Awakening having an effect on a Feruchemy Fabrial?

Not an easy topic to pick apart. . .

[Nightstar The Bright]

9 hours ago, Truthwatch3r said:

The first problem I see right now is that we need to find a consensus as far as what to name these umbrella pages one step down from fabrial. (Split it up by world name? Magic system name? Etc) That seems like the first hurdle to cross before we get to making a page specifically for the airships or the medallions. From what I'm reading in the discussion above, I think this will require such a level of categorization to keep things straight

5 hours ago, Treamayne said:

The first problem I see right now is that we need to find a consensus as far as what to name these umbrella pages one step down from fabrial. (Split it up by world name? Magic system name? Etc) That seems like the first hurdle to cross before we get to making a page specifically for the airships or the medallions. From what I'm reading in the discussion above, I think this will require such a level of categorization to keep things straight

I think this is a good one, either Realmatics or worlds, although worlds could eventually present its own problems

 

9 hours ago, Truthwatch3r said:

Then, as far as Allomancy-powered technology goes, do we currently have examples other than the airships?

The allomantic grenades, which have multiple variants. I’d also like to say that airships themselves should be broken down, we know of two systems, the weight changing and the steel pushing of the fans. 

5 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Though we don't know if the Primer CUbes themselves are in the same class, or different, but are shown to be Allomantic Fabrials (especially how Marasi uses them as A-Cadmium Grenades). We also saw the A-Bronze Seeker fabrial in Sixth of the Dusk, used to find the Aviar - which seems related to Vstim's Alerter Fabrial they used in Shinovar.

You just said it yourself lmao, anyway I think they’re in the same class, both have to be primed (the hunters ship in BoM needs to be primed). Also how sure are we that the fabrial in SotD was an A-Bronze fabrial, I don’t remember it being stated in the text, though please correct me if I’m wrong here, it could’ve been any sort of fabrial capable of detecting life or investiture etc.

6 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Not an easy topic to pick apart. . .

Nope, but that’s part of what makes it fun.

[Treamayne]

8 hours ago, Treamayne said:

We also saw the A-Bronze Seeker fabrial in Sixth of the Dusk, used to find the Aviar - which seems related to Vstim's Alerter Fabrial they used in Shinovar.

2 hours ago, Nightstar The Bright said:

Also how sure are we that the fabrial in SotD was an A-Bronze fabrial, I don’t remember it being stated in the text,

Thank you - that's what I get for typing tired. You are correct - it's only implied and what I meant to say was:

Quote

We also saw the Seeking fabrial in Sixth of the Dusk (possibly A-Bronze if the "Ones Above" are Scadrians, as theorized), used to find the Aviar - which seems related to Vstim's Alerter Fabrial they used in Shinovar.