AquaRegia he/him Posted December 6, 2023 Posted December 6, 2023 Rereading MB Era 1 (so good!) and something jumped out at me. In Mistborn: A Secret History, when Kelsier is stuck in the Well of Ascension - this would be during the events of WoA - Hoid is passing through and says to Kelsier "You did what I needed you to, but..." To what, exactly, is he referring? The first thing I thought of, the obvious assumption, was freeing The Final Empire from The Lord Ruler. But a) Kelsier didn't actually DO that, and b) do we have any reason to think that Hoid "needed" that to happen? We, after all these years, still don't really know what Hoid's game is. One thing Kelsier DID do, undoubtedly: lay the groundwork for a new religion. Was THAT what Hoid somehow needed, or was it something else? It seems safe to assume that Hoid knows about the deal between Ati and Leras, and that he knows how the Well of Ascension works. Had Rashek lasted one more year, Ruin would have stayed locked in Preservation's prison for another thousand years, unable to directly affect events, but also unable to be permanently removed from the picture in any way. Are we supposed to infer that Hoid has arranged for Rashek to be taken out, as step one of getting rid of Ati? While that's exactly what ends up happening, it seems like a low-percentage play, even for Hoid. And we don't see Hoid being involved in any of the other steps, at least, not on screen (although it is implied, through Kelsier, that he spends time in the Terris Mountains, either shortly before or during the time the Inquisitors reportedly wiped out the Keeper leadership). What do you think?
Returned he/him Posted December 6, 2023 Posted December 6, 2023 (edited) 19 hours ago, AquaRegia said: "You did what I needed you to, but..." I don't think that the right way to interpret Hoid's comment is that he arranged for Kelsier to do anything. Hoid needed something, and Kelsier did it-- those aren't necessarily related. I also don't think that we have enough information to answer this question definitively, so it's all speculation. My top guesses are threefold, in ascending order of how likely I think they are: Kelsier set events in motion to save Scadrial from utter destruction on the slimmest chances via the most dangerous avenues Kelsier set events in motion that caused a very dangerous Shard, which had largely overridden its bearer, to be relinquished and taken up by someone more stable Kelsier made the Well accessible by setting in motion the events that freed Ruin, which (arguably) allowed Hoid to get a bead of Lerasium for himself Removing the Lord Ruler doesn't seem like it was all that relevant to Hoid or his plans, save perhaps accessing the chamber where the Well was located. Further, it is strongly implied that the Lord Ruler's fall was orchestrated by Ruin, and that was in turn part of a future-sight-related play by Preservation to ultimately escape his and Ruin's agreement and preserve Scadrial. It's not impossible that Hoid had a hand in that, but I don't see much reason to believe it beyond it being possible for someone like him to attempt if he wanted to. I do believe that Hoid prefers people to survive rather than die, though he isn't an absolutist about it if necessary. On balance he may not have cared much about Scadrial, but he does meddle in Cosmere affairs pretty regularly and is generally an encouraging presence for the Cosmere's heroes (and an obstacle for its villains). That's item 1 on my list. Item 2 involves some Cosmere spoilers: Spoiler I don't know about Hoid's relationship with Ati, but his aims seem to run counter to "the utter destruction of everything" that Ati's Ruin was dedicated to. There is also a relationship, confirmed but not defined, between Ruin and Rayse's Odium, and we know that Hoid had some real problems with Rayse and a strong opposition to Rayse's plans. Hoid is also up to something regarding the Shards across the Cosmere, though we don't know what. His most on-screen interactions with Shards and their plans seem to trend towards stymieing the "bad" ones, like Odium and Ruin, while not doing much with the others, like Harmony, Endowment, Honor, or Cultivation. Item 3 also includes Cosmere spoilers: Spoiler We also know that Hoid is snapping up access to every Cosmere magic system he can manage: he has an unknown amount of Breath, a form of non-Rosharan Lightweaving, a Rosharan Lightweaver bond, and tried (and failed) to become an Elantrian. In Secret History we saw him become Mistborn via a bead of Lerasium found in the Well. It's a mystery why, specifically, Hoid did not do this prior to Secret History, since he was on Scadrial already and had at least some powers (and lots of wiles!) and presumably knew where the beads were. One possibility is that he was prevented from reaching the Well (or at least reaching it safely) due to Ruin's presence there and/or the Lord Ruler dwelling right atop it. Hoid fears Shards' powers (Odium's explicitly, and presumably Ruin's as well), and even Hoid might have had trouble surviving the Lord Ruler's array of Fullborn powers and bottomless metalminds. I'm sure other possibilities exist and other posters will have thought of them. And we know so little about Hoid's schemes that we might all be wrong no matter what! I'm on record as thinking that Hoid has substantial access to Fortune, so the specifics might not be anything we have insight into from text so far. Edited December 6, 2023 by Returned Hid spoilers 1
alder24 Posted December 6, 2023 Posted December 6, 2023 13 hours ago, AquaRegia said: The first thing I thought of, the obvious assumption, was freeing The Final Empire from The Lord Ruler. But a) Kelsier didn't actually DO that, and b) do we have any reason to think that Hoid "needed" that to happen? We, after all these years, still don't really know what Hoid's game is. That's not true. Kelsier did that. Kelsier planned and orchestrated the entire rebellion which brought the fall of the Final Empire and the death of the Lord Ruler. That was all Kelsier's doing, even if VIn killed Rashek. 13 hours ago, AquaRegia said: What do you think? I think Hoid is talking about the fall of the Empire. He was one of the beggar-informants Kelsier was in contact with in TFE. In WoA and HoA Hoid was among Terris people to learn more about how to get Feruchemy - that's probably was his main goal, which is something he would not be able to do if TLR was still alive. Additionally, Hoid might have felt Ruin is going to be freed and he tried to intervene (unlikely, if that was his goal, why would he be among Terris people after TFE, but on the other hand he was in Fadrex in HoA). Spoiler yurisses Can you tell us a little bit about what Hoid was up to in Terris in The Well of Ascension? Brandon Sanderson He was hunting for the Well of Ascension. yurisses In the new continuity, he already knew where the Well was, because he used it to come back to-- Brandon Sanderson Right, we changed the continuity, didn't we. Yeah. Oh boy. We came up with an explanation of this, because when we wrote the book-- Yeah, why don't you send me an email on that one. Now that I have the conversation with Peter, he brought that one up when I finally got around to Secret History. That was one of our big casualties. What did I come up with? I think he was just really, really-- I will have to-- because I canonzied it to Peter. We're gonna have to go to Peter and say "What's in the wiki now?" Yeah, that was one of the big casualties, and the fact that I couldn't get Kelsier to one of the places where I had left foreshadowing for him to speak in someone's head, and I can't remember what that one was, either. yurisses Oh, that one was Sazed, you said it was his imagination. Brandon Sanderson Yeah, I had to make that his imagination. Because I just couldn't get people where they needed to go. This is the problem with writing an outline, then writing a book, and then writing another book so many years later. Certain things, we just can't work into the continuity. Write us an email, we'll get you the official continuity for that one. Because Peter did nail me down when we were working on the book. Peter Ahlstrom After Hoid got the bead during the scene in Secret History, he went north to Terris to do research on possibly acquiring Feruchemy. While he’s there, all hell breaks loose, and he ends up embroiled in helping the Terris people. Oathbringer London signing (Nov. 28, 2017) @Returned There is a lot of Cosmere spoilers in your post. This is Mistborn forum only 2
Treamayne Posted December 6, 2023 Posted December 6, 2023 14 hours ago, AquaRegia said: "You did what I needed you to, but..." To what, exactly, is he referring? 45 minutes ago, alder24 said: That's not true. Kelsier did that. Kelsier planned and orchestrated the entire rebellion which brought the fall of the Final Empire and the death of the Lord Ruler. That was all Kelsier's doing, even if VIn killed Rashek. Concur. While I would never underestimate the ability of Sanderson to have multiple meanings for one phrase - the implied one here was (at least indirectly) causing Kredik Shaw to become unoccupied. While the Pits could work as a perpendicularity, trade and travel was possible on Scadrial. Once the Pits were wrecked, using Preservation's Perpendicularity was dangerous, not just because of Ati's prison, but because it was guarded by TLR, Inquisitors, and normal guards. Even if you transitioned from Shadesmar into Kredik Shaw - there was almost no way to exit the Storage Cavern. From the Physical Realm, no way to enter the Storage Cavern (without a Manifestation of Investiture that would be detectible to all those Inquisitors burning Bronze). Hoid wanted the Lerasium even before the Pits were wrecked. Kelsier's Rebellion causing KS to be (nearly*) empty gave Hoid the opportunity he needed (plus allowing him to return after whatever errand took him away from Luthadel after the events of TFE Ch 19). *I don't think we know if this was before or after Marsh took up residence in KS during WoA. 1
AquaRegia he/him Posted December 6, 2023 Author Posted December 6, 2023 This makes a great deal of sense, thanks to all three of you! If I'm not mistaken, while we certainly see Hoid ACQUIRE a bead of lerasium, we don't see him SWALLOW it. I certainly agree it's by far the most likely explanation that he wants it for himself... but is there any confirmation that he has, in fact, become Mistborn?
Returned he/him Posted December 6, 2023 Posted December 6, 2023 3 minutes ago, AquaRegia said: but is there any confirmation that he has, in fact, become Mistborn? I seem to recall a couple of examples, but the only one I can specifically reference at the moment is: Spoiler We see him mixing a powder into his drink and then consuming it just before someone acts the way he wants them to in Words of Radiance. I'll try to recollect better and offer citations later, if I have a chance before someone else beats me to it. 2
alder24 Posted December 6, 2023 Posted December 6, 2023 41 minutes ago, AquaRegia said: If I'm not mistaken, while we certainly see Hoid ACQUIRE a bead of lerasium, we don't see him SWALLOW it. I certainly agree it's by far the most likely explanation that he wants it for himself... but is there any confirmation that he has, in fact, become Mistborn? Yes, several. You can see him using Allomancy in SA for example. But it was directly confirmed by Brandon in WoBs: Spoiler Truthwatcher_17.5 We know that Hoid took a bead of lerasium, but it never specifically says that he consumed it. Brandon Sanderson Yes, he did. Questioner Alright, so he is a Mistborn? Brandon Sanderson Yes, I'll go ahead and canonize that. Idaho Falls signing (Dec. 29, 2018) Spoiler Questioner Did Hoid use the bead of lerasium to rewrite his spiritual DNA or Web in a way other than just giving himself Allomantic powers? Brandon Sanderson His goal was to become an Allomancer. Questioner And did he use it to create other powers than Allomancy? Brandon Sanderson It could not give powers other than Allomancy. Questioner Because it’s lerasium? Brandon Sanderson Yes. Oversleep So he did burn it and become a Mistborn, right? Brandon Sanderson You have seen him use Allomancy… Oversleep Yes, because it’s creating a lot of <misunderstandings>. Brandon Sanderson You have actually seen him use Allomancy. Footnote: Brandon has since confirmed that the lerasium was burned Kraków signing (March 21, 2017) 2
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