How much control over the magic system does a Shard have?

[listerfeend]

This has been a contentious topic between myself and my coworkers, and I've made an account just to ask this question.

For context, the Coppermind tells us 
 

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When a Shard Invests a world, it will begin to fuel the local magic system. Each Shard can do this differently, though much of the system is dictated by the planet itself.

And
 

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While not all magic systems in the cosmere are directly tied to a Shard, Shardic presence greatly influences the shape a magic system takes. On a planet inhabited by a Shard, magic forms as a result of the interactions between a Shard's power, Realmatics, the world's natural inclinations and, in some cases, even genetics.

This seems to indicate to me that, had the Shards we know decided to Invest in different systems, we would still end up with very similar expressions of Investiture on each planet, with differences lying more in how the Investiture is accessed. I might not be using the best vernacular here, so let me use an example to try to explain.

In my head, the above tells me that, had Ruin and Preservation decided to Invest on Nalthis, instead of Scadrial, Preservation would have begun fueling Awakening. The way to preform an Awakening would likely change, for instance, Breaths might never come into it, they may still have used Metals to fuel Awakening, or some other way. But the end result would be something basically like Awakening, and not the Metallic Arts. Likewise, if Endowment had Invested in Scadrial, then the Metallic Arts would have been fueled by them, and we'd see some other manifestation of how to power that.

The other side of this argument is that the Shards have a LOT of influence over the use of Investiture on their Invested Systems, however, this seems to contradict the "much of the system is dictated by the planet itself" line.

So, the question becomes: Which is it? Do they have a large influence, or a not so large one?

[alder24]

That's a really hard topic.

36 minutes ago, listerfeend said:

This seems to indicate to me that, had the Shards we know decided to Invest in different systems, we would still end up with very similar expressions of Investiture on each planet, with differences lying more in how the Investiture is accessed. I might not be using the best vernacular here, so let me use an example to try to explain.

It depends. How many Shards are in the system, perception of its human population (!!!), the world they've invested in and stuff like that. We don't truly know how this works, but there are also some limits on what is possible or why metal on Scadrial etc (defined by natural laws that predate the Shattering). A magic system appears and isn't created by a Shard - that's important. 

40 minutes ago, listerfeend said:

In my head, the above tells me that, had Ruin and Preservation decided to Invest on Nalthis, instead of Scadrial, Preservation would have begun fueling Awakening. The way to preform an Awakening would likely change, for instance, Breaths might never come into it, they may still have used Metals to fuel Awakening, or some other way. But the end result would be something basically like Awakening, and not the Metallic Arts. Likewise, if Endowment had Invested in Scadrial, then the Metallic Arts would have been fueled by them, and we'd see some other manifestation of how to power that.

I don't think so. In Endowment also invested on Nalthis? Nalthis is a bad example it's very likely to be created or at least populated by Endowment. If Preservation just invested on Nalthis with Endowment there, I don't think he would fuel Awakening, instead there would be several magic systems that would pop into existence - based on the number of Shards present. Look at Roshar - Radiants can't use Voidlight to power their Surges, nor Lifelight. It takes something special - Lift uses Lifelight but can't use Stormlight, while Venli, who is bonded to both Radiant spren and Voidspren, can use both Stormlight and Voidlight. 

Awakening is binded to Endowment. It's manifestation of Endowment in the Physical Realm. It works the way it works, because that's the nature of Endowment crossed with some other factors (like the world she invested, perception of people etc). If Preservation were to be invested in Nalthis instead of Endowment, there would be no Awakening on Nalthis, and likely no Allomancy as well, at least not in the form that we know. Invested arts are more connected to the Shard, but can differ from place to place. If Endowment were to invest and create Scadrial instead of Ruin&Preservation, there would be no Awakening in the form we know, and no Metallic Arts as well. Tbf we don't know, it's really hard to say. If Endowment were to invest on Scadrial right now, with Harmony there, it's very likely another Metallic Arts would spawn, something that would embody the nature of the world and the nature of Endowment as well. 

Invested Arts aren't tied to the world, they're tied to the Shards but worlds, other Shard's presence, perception and other factors affects the way they manifest. 

Spoiler

Kaimipono

Allomancy is fueled by Preservation's body? How exactly does that work? And how does that interact with Atium—it's fueled by both gods' bodies?

Brandon Sanderson

The powers of Ruin and Preservation are Shards of Adonalsium, pieces of the power of creation itself. Allomancy, Hemalurgy, Feruchemy are manifestations of this power in mortal form, the ability to touch the powers of creation and use them. These metallic powers are how people's physical forms interpret the use of the Shard, though it's not the only possible way they could be interpreted or used. It's what the genetics and Realmatic interactions of Scadrial allow for, and has to do with the Spiritual, the Cognitive, and the Physical Realms.

[...]

Hero of Ages Q&A - Time Waster's Guide (Oct. 15, 2008)

 

Spoiler

asmodeus

You've said before that a lot of the magics we see across the cosmere come from an interaction of Shards and their Investiture with the planets they Invest in. What does this mean practically? If Scadrial explodes tomorrow, will Hemalurgy stop working across the cosmere?

Brandon Sanderson

Hemalurgy wouldn't stop working, most likely, but it could. There are ways that you could make it stop working. I kind of mean that the Shards are an innate part of physics in the cosmere, and the magics that arise are an innate part of physics because of that. Like atium seeped out into the Pits of Hathsin, in the same way, these magics are just gonna leak out, and different places are going to affect them. You'll see Lightweaving happening in different places, and the way the Shard is interacting with the local... The way the Shard is is going to affect how Lightweaving is administrated in the various magics, but it's still gonna be there. Hemalurgy is kind of a similar thing to that. You will see Midnight Essence, you will see some of these recurring ideas popping up, and these are like natural parts of the physics, but they're influenced by the Shards on the local planets.

I don't know if that answer, that's gonna be a really fun one for them to transcribe into the Q&A thing, because I go around in circles on that question a ton. Put this part in when you do it.

Footnote: It was a really fun one.
YouTube Spoiler Stream 4 (June 16, 2022)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

It was mentioned that there are 16 gods in your Cosmere.

Brandon Sanderson

Depends on your definition of god.

Questioner

Shards. Are the ten orders of the Knight Radiants related to specific gods? Because Honor, child of Honor-Kaladin

Brandon Sanderson

So all the magic on Roshar, all the surgebinding on Roshar, is going to have its roots in Honor and Cultivation. Um... There is some Odium influence too, but that’s mostly voidbinding, which is the map in the back of the first book.

Questioner

I was wondering how much-

Brandon Sanderson

But, but even the powers, it’s, it’s really this sort of thing. What’s going in Stormlight is that people are accessing fundamental forces of creation and laws of the universe. They’re accessing them through the filter of Cultivation and Honor. So, that’s not to say, on another world you couldn’t have someone influence gravity. Honor doesn’t belong to gravity. But bonds, and how to deal with bonds, and things like this, is an Honor thing. So the way Honor accesses gravity is, you make a bond between yourself and either a thing or a direction or things like that and you go. So it’s filtered through Honor’s visual, and some of the magics lean more Honor and some them lean more Cultivation, as you can obviously see, in the way that they take place.

[...]

Boskone 54 (Feb. 18, 2017)

 

Spoiler

Chaos

Allomancy provides many very dramatic effects, which some have noted is not very much like Preservation. Could you walk me through how Allomancy is of Preservation, though it does dramatic, dynamic things?

Brandon Sanderson

One of the 'basics' of the magic in all of the worlds is that the energy of Shards can fuel all kinds of interactions, not just interactions based on their personality/role. I did this because otherwise, the Magics would all be extremely limited.

The 'role' of the Shard has to do with the WAY the magic is obtained, not what it can do. So, in Preservation's case, the magic is a gift--allowing a person to preserve their own strength, and rely upon the strength granted by the magic. While Hemalurgy has a huge cost, ending in net entropy.

/r/fantasy AMA 2011 (Aug. 31, 2011)

 

Spoiler

Czanos

Preservation can fuel Allomancy, (minus atium.) but can Ruin fuel Hemalurgy? (Or atium?) And could Sazed fuel all three Metallic Arts?

Brandon Sanderson

Both gods could, if they wanted, fuel all of the Metallic Arts. Preservation is stronger at fueling Allomancy, Ruin stronger at fueling Allomancy or Feruchemy when it has been given via a spike. Both are balanced when it comes to Feruchemy. But this rarely comes up in the books, as it required expending power in a way that the gods were hesitant to do.

Hero of Ages Q&A - Time Waster's Guide (Oct. 15, 2008)

 

There was a WoB asking if Metallic Arts are affected by perception of people, the answer was no, but invested arts in general are affected by it. I can't find it however.

 

1 hour ago, listerfeend said:

The other side of this argument is that the Shards have a LOT of influence over the use of Investiture on their Invested Systems, however, this seems to contradict the "much of the system is dictated by the planet itself" line.

The source for the "much of the system is dictated by the planet itself" is the first WoB I've posted, which doesn't say that at all. Shards have influence over their invested arts, like Honor binding Surges making them less powerful, Preservation Snapping people with Mists, or Harmony subconsciously affecting Hemalurgy. Shards however can't deny their people the use and access to invested arts - Preservation can't stop fueling Allomancy, nor Odium can stop fueling Fused powers.

Spoiler

CaptainRyan

*written* Could a Shard refuse to "fuel" a magic user? E.g. Could Preservation have refused to "fuel" Ham's pewter? (Please, for the question, assume Preservation is whole and undamaged.)

Brandon Sanderson

*written* No, but he could have interfered.

*spoken* So, the answer is "no, he couldn't." Like, if you just had the Allomancy going, like--

CaptainRyan

They can't shut you off?

Brandon Sanderson

They can't shut you off, but they can interfere with you using it. They could do other things. But, like, the magic, it would be like saying, "I refuse to let gravity work on this person."

CaptainRyan

But couldn't a Shard-- Technically, they can control forces--

Brandon Sanderson

No, they can't, but they can interfere with it, does that make sense? ...Gravity is not gone, but this person is being interfered with and their relationship to these sorts of things.

CaptainRyan

Kind of like if I throw your pen in the air, gravity's not gone, but I've interfered with something.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, exactly. And you can, like, twist the gravity, so it's pointing... But the laws of natures, burning is, like, a law of nature, and things like that. And they can circumvent, and they can twist, and they can bend, but the laws of nature are still the laws of nature.

CaptainRyan

They can't just cut it off?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah.

Oathbringer release party (Nov. 13, 2017)

 

1 hour ago, listerfeend said:

So, the question becomes: Which is it? Do they have a large influence, or a not so large one?

They have... an influence. How does that sound? Honor can limit the power of Surges but can't deny people access to them, nor can he create a new Surge just because he wants. Invested Arts are manifestations of the power of creation itself, filtered by Shardic intent. Invested Arts are manifestations of Shards themselves. 

 

This would be a great question for Brandon. I would love to hear his answer to that. All I can give you is that.

[listerfeend]

There is a lot to digest here, and I was just thinking to myself I need to figure out how to get a WoB on the matter. In my example, Preservation/Ruin would have settled Nalthis on their own, but as you said, Nalthis and Scadrial are sort of both bad examples for this, since the life there was created by the Shards in both cases. Perhaps a better comparison would be having Preservation and Ruin initially decide to settle on Roshar (instead of Honor and Cultivation), or another planet that had life prior to the Shattering. In which case I am assuming that the Metallic Arts, as we know them, would not have formed there. 

 

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These metallic powers are how people's physical forms interpret the use of the Shard, though it's not the only possible way they could be interpreted or used. It's what the genetics and Realmatic interactions of Scadrial allow for, and has to do with the Spiritual, the Cognitive, and the Physical Realms.

that portion of the WoB is where the Coppermind is getting its "much of the system is dictated by the planet itself"  line, and that sort of still feels, to me, like he's saying Allomancy/Hemalurgy/Ferruchemy were not invented by the Shards, but more interpreted by the people/planet/system, and Shard's are able to limit some of the variables surrounding how that interpretation manifests.

In the end, "they have SOME influence" seems accurate enough, but I'd like to get a WoB on the matter 

[alder24]

6 minutes ago, listerfeend said:

There is a lot to digest here, and I was just thinking to myself I need to figure out how to get a WoB on the matter. In my example, Preservation/Ruin would have settled Nalthis on their own, but as you said, Nalthis and Scadrial are sort of both bad examples for this, since the life there was created by the Shards in both cases. Perhaps a better comparison would be having Preservation and Ruin initially decide to settle on Roshar (instead of Honor and Cultivation), or another planet that had life prior to the Shattering. In which case I am assuming that the Metallic Arts, as we know them, would not have formed there. 

That's correct. Spren would still be present on Roshar, those were created by Adonalsium and predate the Shattering, so it's possible their invested arts would include spren in one way or another. Or not at all. All is possible.

9 minutes ago, listerfeend said:

that portion of the WoB is where the Coppermind is getting its "much of the system is dictated by the planet itself"  line, and that sort of still feels, to me, like he's saying Allomancy/Hemalurgy/Ferruchemy were not invented by the Shards, but more interpreted by the people/planet/system, and Shard's are able to limit some of the variables surrounding how that interpretation manifests.

That's right. But Shard's are also a factor in this. You can't have Endowment's magic without the idea of giving, you can't have Preservation's magic without preserving, you can't have Ruin's one without damaging or Honor's without bonds. Shards' intent filters the way invested arts are distributed, while Shards interactions with themselves, people and the planet shape the way invested arts manifest. At least that's my understanding.

There might be a spoiler stream coming up soon (Brandon's birthday???), watch out for announcements on YT or Brandon's social media. When they appear, Brandon's team will provide a link to a reddit thread where people can ask questions. Make this into some shorter question and you might get lucky. 

[Returned]

23 minutes ago, listerfeend said:

that portion of the WoB is where the Coppermind is getting its "much of the system is dictated by the planet itself"  line, and that sort of still feels, to me, like he's saying Allomancy/Hemalurgy/Ferruchemy were not invented by the Shards, but more interpreted by the people/planet/system, and Shard's are able to limit some of the variables surrounding how that interpretation manifests.

In the end, "they have SOME influence" seems accurate enough, but I'd like to get a WoB on the matter 

It's easy to overinterpret how much "much of the system" actually indicates, as well as "dictated by the planet itself". How far do those go? What do they even mean, exactly? The form of magic? What the magic can do? How the magic operates?

We also don't know very much about how a given magic system could vary if fueled by different Shards. The systems we know the most about are poor examples for the reasons @alder24 pointed out. The only real mixing of magic systems we've seen or gotten WoBs about have been between the three Metallic Arts, and Forgery/Aon. And, perhaps, the imitation of Rosharan Shardblades.

If Honor were on Nalthis, would Awakening be about making oaths to the thing you want to Awaken, or might an Awakener accumulate power by making and keeping multiple oaths, or might an Awakened object have a fundamental oath it needs to fulfill? Would the magic even be something we would recognize as being like Awakening, or would it look like Rosharan magic but have a Nalthian implementation (whatever thath would mean)?

We're really grasping in the dark, for now. I imagine we'll see much, much more in the future, especially with late-era Feruchemists moving around the Cosmere.

[alder24]

8 minutes ago, Returned said:

If Honor were on Nalthis, would Awakening be about making oaths to the thing you want to Awaken, or might an Awakener accumulate power by making and keeping multiple oaths, or might an Awakened object have a fundamental oath it needs to fulfill? Would the magic even be something we would recognize as being like Awakening, or would it look like Rosharan magic but have a Nalthian implementation (whatever thath would mean)?

I have to point out that oaths aren't the limiting factor of Honor's invested arts, bonds are. The first Surgebinders gained powers because spren mimicked what Honor gave to Heralds and they started bonding with people giving them powers. Honor didn't even see that coming. Then Ishar came and formalized them into Orders with spoken Oaths. From WoB above:

Quote

Honor doesn’t belong to gravity. But bonds, and how to deal with bonds, and things like this, is an Honor thing. So the way Honor accesses gravity is, you make a bond between yourself and either a thing or a direction or things like that and you go. 

 

[Returned]

5 minutes ago, alder24 said:

I have to point out that oaths aren't the limiting factor of Honor's invested arts, bonds are. The first Surgebinders gained powers because spren mimicked what Honor gave to Heralds and they started bonding with people giving them powers.

A fair clarification, though I'm not sure how that would interact with Awakening either