Few Mistborn questions

[Hel]

Hi, new member here. I know, I know, I should've introduced myself in the Introduction forum, but... Well, I'm coming to an end of the trilogies, and there are few things that bug me, particularly about the last book, The Hero of Ages.

Sorry if these questions have been asked before... The quotes are taken mostly from HoA epigraph, with one from a chapter in the book.

I wonder what Elend would have done, had he known that he was in the presence of a dying god—that on that night, he had been the last witness of Preservation's passing. If Elend had waited just a few more minutes on that ashen field, he would have seen a body—short of stature, black hair, prominent nose—fall from the mists and slump dead into the ash.

1. Okay, I understand that Ruin and Preservation are forces, that the prison was made from Preservation's consciousness, and the Mist is its body. But nowhere in the book it mentions Preservation and Ruin are people. And at the end... Ruin had a body as well. How did they, as a force, had a body?

He managed to orchestrate the downfall of the Lord Ruler only a short time before Preservation's power returned to the Well of Ascension. And then, within a few years of that event, he had freed himself.

2. I don't get it... The prison was Preservation's consciousness, the Mist his body. The sentence indicate the lapse between Lord Ruler's death and Ruin's escape. Preservation's 'power' and body, if I'm not mistaken, is the Mist. How does it relates to Well of Ascension? I understand Vin used Mist to fuel her Allomancy when she defeated Lord Ruler, but the Mist is not connected to the Well of Ascension, and Vin touched Preservation's consciousness just before she decided to release Ruin.

For Ruin, there is Preservation. Time immemorial! Eternity! And each time I push, YOU push back. Even when dead, you stopped me, for we are forces. I can do nothing! And you can do nothing! Balance! The curse of our existence.

3. I'm confused... Who did Ruin referred to? Preservation? Vin? And it didn't make sense... Even if it referred to Vin, she had become a force herself, and if a force is dead... Well how could anything dead react? Did Ruin referred that bold sentence to Preservation's consciousness?

[Aeshdan]

1. There is a distinction between Ati/Leras and Ruin/Preservation. Ati and Leras were the two original holders of the Shards of Ruin and Preservation. Those are the bodies that fell from the sky.

2. The Well of Ascension contained a portion of Preservation's power. Releasing it, instead of taking it for yourself, caused the prison Leras had created out of his mind to come apart, releasing Ruin.

3. Preservation's power, even without a consciousness to direct it, worked against Ruin. It wasn't very effective, but it did prevent Ruin from destroying everything the way he wanted.

[Odium's_Shard]

Also, on the third point, I believe he was also cursing Preservation's complicated plan to orchestrate his own death and reinstate the full power of Preservation (including those segments given to the Mists and the Well) upon Vin's temporary caretaking of the position, so that the fully balanced forces were available in order to forge Harmony as the Hero of Ages.

[Zas678]

Hi, new member here. I know, I know, I should've introduced myself in the Introduction forum, but... Well, I'm coming to an end of the trilogies, and there are few things that bug me, particularly about the last book, The Hero of Ages.

Sorry if these questions have been asked before... The quotes are taken mostly from HoA epigraph, with one from a chapter in the book.

1. Okay, I understand that Ruin and Preservation are forces, that the prison was made from Preservation's consciousness, and the Mist is its body. But nowhere in the book it mentions Preservation and Ruin are people. And at the end... Ruin had a body as well. How did they, as a force, had a body?

This is a question that Brandon was asked during the Time Waster's Guide interview.

1) Who were Ruin and Preservation? I mean, when they died, they had bodies, like Vin. And you went as far as to describe their hair color (Red and Black, respectively). Preservation even had a prominent nose. Why describe their dead bodies, if they weren't at one time mortals themselves? They created humans, but were at one time human themselves?

1) RAFO. (Sorry.)

Err... That one wasn't as helpful as I'd hoped. Our current belief is that they are humans named Ati (for Ruin, where the word Atium comes from) and Leras (for Preservation, where the word Lerasium comes from) who took up the Shards(Ruin and Preservation) when Adonalsium Shattered thousands of years ago. They took up the Shards like Vin or Sazed ended up doing in Hero of Ages. So yes, they used to be humans.

2. I don't get it... The prison was Preservation's consciousness, the Mist his body. The sentence indicate the lapse between Lord Ruler's death and Ruin's escape. Preservation's 'power' and body, if I'm not mistaken, is the Mist. How does it relates to Well of Ascension? I understand Vin used Mist to fuel her Allomancy when she defeated Lord Ruler, but the Mist is not connected to the Well of Ascension, and Vin touched Preservation's consciousness just before she decided to release Ruin.

I've got one for this one! From Chapter 55 Annotation, talking about the Mist Spirit.

The mist spirit is, as the nextepigraph explains, the remnants of Preservation's mind. I don't delve into ittoo much in this book, even the epigraphs, but Preservation's consciousness isindeed separate from his power. However, his consciousness itself has a limitedpower. And that is what he used to bind Ruin. That did not weaken his power, whichstill protects the world. Instead, it cost him his mind, leaving behind only afaint shadow—like the mists' memory of Preservation, far removed from what hehad once been.

That consciousness attached toPreservation—like the one attached to Ruin—is a part of Adonalsium, which willeventually be explained. Suffice it to say that in a pinch, Preservation coulddraw upon the power of his own mind and use it to imprison Ruin. This was whyhe was able to pull of the trick, as Ruin wasn't expecting it. He might haveanticipated an attack using Preservation's power, but not his mind—not knowingwhat burning his own mind would do.

3. I'm confused... Who did Ruin referred to? Preservation? Vin? And it didn't make sense... Even if it referred to Vin, she had become a force herself, and if a force is dead... Well how could anything dead react? Did Ruin referred that bold sentence to Preservation's consciousness?

I think that the Shard of Preservation naturally has some intelligence tied to it. It isn't much, but it does have some. I bet that after thousands of years of fighting with Ruin, it naturally tries to oppose whatever Ruin does.

Here's a basic rundown of Shards if you want it:

Now where did these Shards, and the humans who control them, come from?

Basically, there was a giant super-powerful.... thing called "Adonalsium". We don't know if it was an all-knowing God, or if was just a superpowered Shard, or what it was. We do know that it Shattered into 16 shards- concepts, embodiments of various emotions. Preservation. Endowment. Ruin. Honor. And the most treachorous by far- Odium (which means Hate). When Adonalsium shattered, 16 people took up Shards- Ati (who took Ruin), Leras (who took Preservation), Rayse (who took Odium), and many others. Hoid was among these 16, but did not take a Shard. We know he was there when Adonalsium Shattered, but we don't know why.

I'm going to describe a little bit about a Shard's mind. Basically, there are two pieces to it. A Shard inherently has some intelligence, but it isn't very strong. I actually imagine it a lot like Nightblood when it's drawn. It doesn't have much initiative or intellignece, it just does. However, Shards almost always have a person connected with it- a person that controls the shard, who gives it goals and objectives. Holding a shard taints the person's mind though, like Chaos's Principle of Intent mentions. Basically, once you hold a shard, you come to think more and more in terms of that concept, that principle that the Shard embodies. <br class="Apple-interchange-newline">

If you want to know more, read the Cosmere 101 thread, or the wiki article on Shards. Just be careful though- you're treading into spoilers for many of the other books (though not too much. If you read just those two, I don't think there's any major plot points on there.)

[Chaos]

I'd like to note that in Zas's answer to your #3 is a bit theoretical, since we don't know if Shards (the power itself) have some level of intelligence. I agree with answer above, that Ruin is referring the power of Preservation, not any consciousness attached to it. Obviously, if the force of Preservation has nobody directing it, it can't do anything fancy, but it will still Preserve. So if Leras (the person holding Preservation) died, that force is still certainly alive, and pushing against Ruin.

Perhaps the confusion lies with what Brandon has said to us about Shards. We personally feel the need for the term "Shardholder" to refer to the person who holds a Shard (in the case of Preservation, Leras), as separate from the force itself. But, Brandon said that when a person picks up a Shard, they become the Shard. So in this case, we get the ambiguity that Ruin is referring to Preservation as "dead", but it's not the force that's dead, but its holder. Now that I think about it, that is really confusing.

As far as we know, the power itself cannot be destroyed (I'd tell you something about The Way of Kings, but I'm not sure if you've read it). It's part of the power of creation, after all, and like the Well of Ascension, you can use it, but the power of creation doesn't just vanish like that.

Ruin is definitely referring to Leras, but also remember that when Vin picks up the power, she says that she can sense what the previous holders of the power did. It could be that it fuses together, and that to Ruin, the distinction between Shardholder isn't particularly relevant.

[Hel]

Ah, I see. It makes sense now knowing there's someone taking/controlling the power. Yes, the confusion is caused by using the same term both for Shards and Shardholder.

I've read about Cosmere, Adonalsium, and Shards, and wondering, if Splinters are object of power from Shards, does that mean it is less powerfull? And by saying A Shard has been splintered, does that mean the Shard still works but less powerful as before?

When Adonalsium shattered, 16 people took up Shards- Ati (who took Ruin), Leras (who took Preservation), Rayse (who took Odium), and many others. Hoid was among these 16, but did not take a Shard.

I'm confused, I find the it a little contradicting. Do you mean Hoid is there WITH the other 16 people? That means he's there, but only observe the situation?

Perhaps I don't have a full understanding because I only have read Mistborn trilogies and Elantris. I thought I should wait till I have read Mr Sanderson's other book, but it might take me few years to do that. His world just intrigue me so much that I find myself in forum such as this, but the more I poke my head around, the more I find there's so much that I'm missing.

Thanks for spending time to answer my questions

[KChan]

The sample chapters available in this thread should answer some of your Cosmere-related questions, and also maybe help you understand the things Ruin was talking about a little better.

[Chaos]

Ah, I see. It makes sense now knowing there's someone taking/controlling the power. Yes, the confusion is caused by using the same term both for Shards and Shardholder.

Yeah, pretty much. Trust me, I'd sure like the ambiguity to be resolved (hence why I'm very bullish on using the word), but Brandon doesn't like it. It's an author-designed ambiguity.

I've read about Cosmere, Adonalsium, and Shards, and wondering, if Splinters are object of power from Shards, does that mean it is less powerfull? And by saying A Shard has been splintered, does that mean the Shard still works but less powerful as before?

It's hard to say for certain, really, since we don't know how Splinters are actually created. But, I think it's safe to say that Splinters have much less power available at its disposal. For example, you've seen Splinters in Elantris (we suspect they are the Seons) and they can't do anything close to what Shards can. However, we don't much about the mechanics behind Splintering, so it's tough to say much more than that.

Your second question is a big one, and even harder to say. There is an example of a Shard having Splinters, and the Shard itself is still around. There's another example where Shards are completely Splintered, with its holder killed. So, it depends on how much Splintering there is, I suppose. Again, tough to say, since we don't know how Splinters are formed. I'd assume that if a Shard had a Splinter, they'd just have less power at their disposal, like Ruin without his atium.

I'm confused, I find the it a little contradicting. Do you mean Hoid is there WITH the other 16 people? That means he's there, but only observe the situation?

Oh, yeah, I think that was poorly stated. Perhaps better to say that sixteen people took up Shards (and that it was not coincidence who got which Shard). We explicitly know Hoid was there when Adonalsium was Shattered, and that he seems to have history with the Shardholders. Those are the facts of the matter. The rest is more theoretical. We are pretty sure Hoid doesn't have a Shard--at the very least, Hoid hasn't been included on the list of "Shards we've encountered", which is pretty convincing to me. Maybe he held a Shard at some point (I don't think so), but there's a lot we don't know about Hoid, which Brandon is keeping very close to his chest.

I, however, think it's safe to say Hoid was not one of the sixteen, but he knew who the sixteen people were.

Perhaps I don't have a full understanding because I only have read Mistborn trilogies and Elantris. I thought I should wait till I have read Mr Sanderson's other book, but it might take me few years to do that. His world just intrigue me so much that I find myself in forum such as this, but the more I poke my head around, the more I find there's so much that I'm missing.

Thanks for spending time to answer my questions

Don't worry about it. A lot of the information we have dredged up has come from our incessant interrogation of Brandon since we discovered Shards at the end of Hero of Ages, so you couldn't have possibly known about a lot of this!

We're more than happy to answer your questions. Honestly, I think it makes the books much better knowing there's all this extra depth to them, and it's awesome to share this with someone for the first time

[name_here]

The annotations also indicate that Kelsier was able to use some of Preservation's power once Leras died but before Vin got Preservation. There's a point after Spook gets his spike removed where he hears Kelsier's voice, and that was actually Kelsier talking. Apparently, there's an intermediate point between life and the afterlife which Kelsier was simply too stubborn to leave.

[Aeshdan]

The annotations also indicate that Kelsier was able to use some of Preservation's power once Leras died but before Vin got Preservation. There's a point after Spook gets his spike removed where he hears Kelsier's voice, and that was actually Kelsier talking. Apparently, there's an intermediate point between life and the afterlife which Kelsier was simply too stubborn to leave.

Yeah. By my count, Kelsier has come back from the dead at least three times so far, and maybe a fourth in AoL

[Zas678]

A Quick note- because this was getting awfully Cosmere-y, I decided to move it to the General Theories.