Kalak and Kelek

[Odium's_Shard]

In that we can both agree.

[Zas678]

Yeah, let's try and keep this discussion cosmere-focused. This isn't the place for real religion debates.

But on the topic at hand, I don't think that we really need confirmation. Brandon has mentioned changing (or at least wanting to change) vowels and words in the Mistborn world between HoA and Alloy.

Reddit Alloy Q&A

ACE_OF_FAITH (REDDIT.COM)

Not really a question, but the one thing that disappointed me was that you didn't come up with new slang names for Allomancers! After three hundred years, do you really think they would still be calling steel mistings "coinshots"?

Anyway, thanks for doing this and keep up the good work.

BRANDON SANDERSON (REDDIT.COM)

I toyed with this one, but decided that I would keep them the same for a few reasons. First off, I felt that certain things in-world would hamper some linquistic diversity. (Having the books Sazed left behind as a guide to Allomancy and history, everyone living in a small geographic area, the semi-religious nature of Allomancy making people look at it in traditional ways.) So, while I advanced the slang of the world, some of the terms I decided to leave the same.

Another reason for this came when I was writing the book. At first, I experimented with greater linguistic diversity—I even tried a vowel shift, as I figured three hundred years might be enough for that. In the end, I pulled back. I was already worried that this book not feel "Mistborn" enough, and so I wanted some direct ties back to the original series. Fiddling too much with the language while changing the setting and characters so drastically felt like a mistake to me.

So if he wanted a linguistic change after 300 years, I bet that 4500 years gave him enough reason to make the subtle change from "Kalak" to "Kelek".

[Odium's_Shard]

Yeah, let's try and keep this discussion cosmere-focused. This isn't the place for real religion debates.

But on the topic at hand, I don't think that we really need confirmation. Brandon has mentioned changing (or at least wanting to change) vowels and words in the Mistborn world between HoA and Alloy.

Reddit Alloy Q&A

So if he wanted a linguistic change after 300 years, I bet that 4500 years gave him enough reason to make the subtle change from "Kalak" to "Kelek".

Its quite an easy word to sink into mis-pronunciation. Come to think of it, so are most of Brandon's names for things. Kaladin. Sygzil. Only exception I can think of is Gaz. But thats just plain boring.

[fiveAM]

Concerning why the names changed. Maybe it was done on purpose? I'm totally blanking on the book title but when i was in middle school, i read a book (a trilogy actually) of a land where humans can become immortal, and it was done by them being recorded or something like that... It gets to a point where one of the characters purposely didn't let people paint pictures of him, and when they did, he had them do it with him wearing ridiculous clothes and have it look nothing like him. Not saying that the same thing is happening in with the Heralds, but maybe the person (possibly Shalash herself) destroying depictions of Shalash and the names getting different names change are connected?

btw, would appreciate it if someone knew the book title. The times are set in like pre-industrial era type place with the first book having a war between the north and south. The 2nd book had different characters but had something to do with weaving or something... (sorry, middle school was seriously long ago for me..) The third book has a girl from a time with railroads, etc. somehow time travel back to meet the char. from book 1.

[Dros]

Concerning why the names changed. Maybe it was done on purpose? I'm totally blanking on the book title but when i was in middle school, i read a book (a trilogy actually) of a land where humans can become immortal, and it was done by them being recorded or something like that... It gets to a point where one of the characters purposely didn't let people paint pictures of him, and when they did, he had them do it with him wearing ridiculous clothes and have it look nothing like him. Not saying that the same thing is happening in with the Heralds, but maybe the person (possibly Shalash herself) destroying depictions of Shalash and the names getting different names change are connected?

That actually could make a tenuous connection to how spren become affixed when they are described in writing. Also, it is strange that Alethi men do not read or write and it's part of their culture to actively dissuade such things. I have a feeling that writing things down by certain men has some profound effects on Roshar.

Edited March 9, 2012 by Droz

[Dros]

Now that UNC won, I'm able to think a little more clearly and I just thought of something related to the above post.

The KRs in Dalinar's Recreance vision had glyphs on their armor, which isn't on existing Plate. There have also only been two KR Orders we've seen in combat and only two. The guy writing about the fire spren had an effect on the spren just describing it. Now, take a look at the Ishi bust along the map of Roshar. I believe he's the old, bald guy. Definitely doesn't look like a fighter and Jezrien referred to Ishi's knowledge on the Oathpact as if he was more of a scholar.

Could writing powerful glyphs that bind or improve things be one of the KR Surges? I think it's quite possible (most likely probable) not all the KR orders have something to do with fighting on the front lines. Is it possible the Herald's Blades (and possibly all Shardblades) have many different uses beyond warfare? Maybe Syl despises Dalniar's blade because it's been used for something it wasn't made to do for so long and really doesn't hate the existence of the Blade per se. It's the taint she hates.

Also, doesn't anyone find it strange one has to wait ten seconds for the Blade to appear. In combat, sometimes ten seconds might as well be ten hours. And if you drop it you're screwed? In a messy environment like combat, dropping things is just part of life...or death. Maybe the ten seconds is a built in stop-gap to make the user think about what he's about to do and to make the Blade less attractive for destructive uses. Remember Dalinar's digging episode? Remember how he really felt like such labor was satisfying and how strange the whole set up was? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe he used the Blade to dig and it never felt so right to him.

[Odium's_Shard]

About your point about glyphs, men in Roshar write glyphs all the time with no effect. Can't remember the exact name they are given now. But it may be to do with men write words as opposed to symbols.

However, I also was confused when Dalinar was asking himself why the Radiants, or whoever made Shardblades/plate, didn't make tools that were used to dig, or to farm, weave, or other actually useful things (of which war is NOT).

My belief, as one of the 'Voidish Blades' "camp", is because their only purpose was to kill each other. They are only in existence, only so effective, only so DESTRUCTIVE, that Odium himself planted the Blades among men when the were kicked from the heavens. Only the Honorblades are different. After all, how could an Honorblade otherwisedly be different to a Shardblade? It presumably has the same power, prowess, destructive ability, but perhaps not the wait. Not all that useful an adaption for the Heralds. The only reason I can think of the Honorblades being better, is by being something of Honor. It's in the name, really.

So there would be no reason for odium to give appropriate tools to nurture civilization, cultivation, or anything beneficial to the people of Roshar. Just implements of war, to inspire hatred, jealousy and desire in the world of Roshar to ripen it for the taking and the Everstorm, weaken their defenses while they trust in the Blades that will become defective when he truly arrives.

The only argument against it would be: why did the Radiants then encourage this by GIVING them to everyone, making these emotions that Odium desired even more far-reaching than simply the Knights Radiant. Surely they should of hidden them, even if they did realise the taint and decide to give them up. They didn't have to actively SPREAD the taint (or maybe it was their intent...?). The only argument I can see against the Voidish Blades theory.

[Quantum Toast]

Also, doesn't anyone find it strange one has to wait ten seconds for the Blade to appear. In combat, sometimes ten seconds might as well be ten hours. And if you drop it you're screwed? In a messy environment like combat, dropping things is just part of life...or death. Maybe the ten seconds is a built in stop-gap to make the user think about what he's about to do and to make the Blade less attractive for destructive uses. Remember Dalinar's digging episode? Remember how he really felt like such labor was satisfying and how strange the whole set up was? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe he used the Blade to dig and it never felt so right to him.

Ten heartbeats, technically, so in high-adrenaline situations like combat it'll generally materialize faster than when you're calm.

(Also, I'm pretty sure he said he didn't use the Shardblade because they're useless for digging - the cut's too narrow to be much use.)

[Odium's_Shard]

^ He used a hammer and the additional force granted to him by Shardplate.

[KageNoOni]

The book doesn't say that it felt right. Instead it's an internal monologue wondering why such tools weren't available for the common man. He also stated that it felt good to be working in this way, nothing specifically about the shardblade.

Dalinar gripped the haft of his warhammer in a gauntleted hand; the metal shaft was wrapped tightly with leather. Taking a deep breath' date=' he leaped down into the half-finished ditch, lifted the hammer, then swung, slamming the weapon down against the rock.

...

Where [i']were[/i] the Shards for regular men? Why hadn't the ancients, who were so wise, created anything to help them? ... Shardplate could be used for so many things to ease the lives of workers and darkeyes across Roshar.

It felt good to be working. To be doing something useful. Lately, he felt as if his efforts had been akin to running about in circles. The work helped him think.

...

He continued to swing. ... Occasionally, he summoned his Blade and used it to cut the rock, slicing out sections before returning to the hammer to break them apart.

...

He probably looked ridiculous. ... And yet it felt so good. So wonderful to pitch in directly with the needs of the camp. The results of what he did to protect Elhokar were often difficult to gauge; it was fulfilling to be able to do something where his progress was obvious.

[Dros]

Guess you're right. He used the Blade to cut the rock, but it wasn't using the Blade in that manner that gave him a particular feeling of usefulness. Only the labor itself.

Dalinar does bring up a good question, though, doesn't he? Wars will always advance technology toward destruction, but after the war is through, a civilization usually uses such technology for other pursuits as well. It doesn't seem so, on Roshar...unless the answers are contained in Urithiru and its demise.

[Aeshdan]

Guess you're right. He used the Blade to cut the rock, but it wasn't using the Blade in that manner that gave him a particular feeling of usefulness. Only the labor itself.

Dalinar does bring up a good question, though, doesn't he? Wars will always advance technology toward destruction, but after the war is through, a civilization usually uses such technology for other pursuits as well. It doesn't seem so, on Roshar...unless the answers are contained in Urithiru and its demise.

I don't think the war ever ended.

[Dros]

Thw war may have never ended, per se, but it's my understanding there were enough times of relative peace with the KR standing guard on the front lines for people to take on other pursuits.

[name_here]

I believe that there is some limitation on how many suits of Shardplate could be produced, and the Radiants got them because, while they could be useful in civilian applications, ultimately it was more important to win in the Desolations than to make a thousand people capable of being really good manual laborers. Although the Radiants probably used them for that sort of thing too, they seem to have been pretty swell guys.

Notably, when Dalinar is returning from the Tower, he thinks about his missing gauntlet and how, when his armorers grew a new one the missing one would go inert. So each suit is fundamentally a single item, not a collection of fabrials. Furthermore, he also states that if the Parshendi grew a full suit before he finished regrowing his, his suit would become inert, so it's not a matter of having a master control piece of some sort. The only explanation I can think of for why making multiple suits from parts of one suit is impossible but any part can be used to regenerate one suit is that there is some intangible entity that is distributed throughout the suit, and one entity is needed per suit. Whatever the nature of this (presumably a spren), if there were only ever a thousand in existence making more suits or copying principles would be largely impossible.

[Odium's_Shard]

I have a feeling that this offers good points as to why Shardblades could be tainted (or perhaps why Shardplate is?). It seems impossible using these rules to produce new suits. Perhaps these rules were put into existence by Honour before he died, or when the Heralds 'gave up'? This would stop the KR going rampant with numbers, but also (if they foresaw the Recreance), means that no one nation can consolidate monumental power of the Shards through just one Shardplate even if most of the pieces eventually drifted to the highest reaches). After all, all of the suits must have been made at some point in order for there to be so many, so it makes me think there was originally a way to produce more.

[Dros]

I believe that there is some limitation on how many suits of Shardplate could be produced, and the Radiants got them because, while they could be useful in civilian applications, ultimately it was more important to win in the Desolations than to make a thousand people capable of being really good manual laborers. Although the Radiants probably used them for that sort of thing too, they seem to have been pretty swell guys.

Notably, when Dalinar is returning from the Tower, he thinks about his missing gauntlet and how, when his armorers grew a new one the missing one would go inert. So each suit is fundamentally a single item, not a collection of fabrials. Furthermore, he also states that if the Parshendi grew a full suit before he finished regrowing his, his suit would become inert, so it's not a matter of having a master control piece of some sort. The only explanation I can think of for why making multiple suits from parts of one suit is impossible but any part can be used to regenerate one suit is that there is some intangible entity that is distributed throughout the suit, and one entity is needed per suit. Whatever the nature of this (presumably a spren), if there were only ever a thousand in existence making more suits or copying principles would be largely impossible.

Good points, especially the "limited number" aspect. And when I really think about it, the KRs were walking among an obviously primitive people with their highly advanced weaponry and armor. So the Shardplates and Blades were obviously gifts or leftovers from someone or something not physically present in the world since at least the Last Desolation.

Which brings up the question...then where did the Heralds come from? They talk about the people as primitives, so was there a time before when society on Roshar was more advanced and that's when? where?they came from? Why didn't they give some gifts of technology to the primitive people? Just jotting down some ideas might have been quite a big help. They were looked at as dieties and it seems they might be immortal. I always assumed they came from Roshar's population, but I'm not so sure anymore.

[Joe ST]

Which brings up the question...then where did the Heralds come from? They talk about the people as primitives, so was there a time before when society on Roshar was more advanced and that's when? where?they came from? Why didn't they give some gifts of technology to the primitive people? Just jotting down some ideas might have been quite a big help. They were looked at as dieties and it seems they might be immortal. I always assumed they came from Roshar's population, but I'm not so sure anymore.

I would think that the Heralds have been around since the Tranqualine Halls, which sound pretty nifty. Then they got thrown out, the Oathpact was made with 10 'heroes' (the Heralds), the majority of the population probably died in that desolation or in the poor living conditions due to having to rebuild their whole society on a new planet. Then, after uncounted Desolations, their technology is at the level we see today.

I doubt the Heralds have much time to impart much knowledge except war-tech. They evidently die frequently in the Desolations, and are otherwise taken back relatively quickly after the end of one. The Oathpact may also prevent sharing of knowledge other than what is necessary for survival. It may also be that after the first few desolations, with them actively trying to impart their knowledge on the pre-Desolation societies, and the results being that even more destruction happen somehow, they decide not to to save people or something. Or even that they have forgotten how stuff works other than their deep memories of a better time, cause they're getting tortured by Odium and then thrown into a Desolation every now an again.

[Windrunner]

A couple other things in this train of thought. If I am not mistaken, we don't know the intervals between Desolations. Even if it's only once every thousand years that isn't all that much time to rebuild. Another thing to consider is that, even if the Heralds had knowledge of everything, and could tell the humans how to do anything this doesn't help them any. As Joe said, The Heralds are basically supposed to to leave right after the battles end, they don't have time to deliver any complex instructions on how to go about rebuilding. Also the humans really have nothing left at all. They are basically starting at step one over and over. It would take a long time to get even a moderate amount of technology built up. It's kind of like if all the electronics in the world were fried, we'd be in trouble too, trying to start over.

There is one more thing to notice. Assuming you survive this battle, with nothing left, as it seemed in the prelude, and no instructions, what are you going to do? The book said 90% of the world's population died in at least one of these Desolations. If you think about who survived this massive war, who's it going to be? It's going to be the greatest warriors of the time. Very few of the thinkers, and the scientists and the artifabrians (if they had those) would have managed to fight a war. Nohadon even mentions it, speaking about how all his "wordsmen" were slaughtered when the Unmade Yelig-Nar broke into his chancery. The books are probably all gone too, we know that the Palaneum, the greatest library in the world was almost completely burned once. So there is no one around who knows how to do anything except fight. If humans were once advanced, it's easy to see how they were held back from growing here.

You also mentioned where the Heralds come from. I think they were chosen out of the regular population of Roshar humans. I know of only one piece of Herald-Lore mentioned in the book. When Jasnah wants Shallan to have studied all those topics like history and philosophy Shallan says, "Your demands are about as reasonable as the ones made of Ten Heralds on Proving day!" This implies to me that, at least in the people's mythology, the Heralds were once regular people.

Edited March 16, 2012 by Windrunner

[Tulir]

On your last point, Windrunner, it could be that the Heralds were ordinary people, but from a more advanced time-period.

[Odium's_Shard]

One in which Urithuru, a legendary city with incredible technological, and destructive, tools were held.

However, it is unsure in the book as to whether the Heralds built it after their 'ascension' or whether it was previously there.

[Sweetness]

As mentioned above, SH is one letter, making Shalash and Ishi perfect. I think likewise, Jezerezeh is perfect in sounds but written differently (Maybe it's pronounced Hezerezeh, or maybe Jezerezej was just awkward, or maybe final Js are silent?)

I'm off topic slightly and currently quotehunting to back this up, but I'm almost certain the letter shash is mentioned in Warbreaker too. Knowing Brandon's tendencies at this point, I doubt it's coicidence. Or has someone else already pointed this out?

[Triasmus]

I believe someone pointed that out, and I believe it turned out to be a coincident.