Inevitable Posted March 5, 2012 Report Share Posted March 5, 2012 No. In the same way that the Surge of Gravity is the force that pulls things towards the ground, the Surge of Life is the force that keeps your body running and is responsible for natural healing. Except the force that keeps your body running and is responsible for natural healing is chemistry. Pressure may not be fundamental, as such, but it... actually this is too hard to explain. I'll leave it at this: I just don't see life as being important on the cosmic scale of things. There's no mystical energy working behind the scenes that allows things to live, there's nothing out there for a surge to tap into and use. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odium's_Shard Posted March 5, 2012 Report Share Posted March 5, 2012 This is all to sciencey for my liking, but in fact Gravity is no a palpable, mystical force unto itself. It is put into operation by the Higgs Boson particle, and so, in fact, cannot be described as any more coincidental in the grand scheme if things that life of Earth, or Roshar, or Scadrial and Sel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inevitable Posted March 5, 2012 Report Share Posted March 5, 2012 (edited) Ok, "mystical energy" was a poor choice of words. It's more... Gravity is a thing, it can be identified as this single phenomina, revolving around mass and pulling forces Pressure is a thing as well. Concentrations, volume, that stuff. Travel is... too uncertain right now to say anything about. Might be to do with dimensions and warping reality... Soulcasting is also difficult to work out. Presumably it could be described as Matter. Which is something clear Time (unconfirmed) is a thing. The progression of past to future. "Life" is just a set of reactions. It has no inherent power, indeed, would appear to be just a product of Matter, and therefore should be subject to Soulcasting, which is why Soulcasting can, infact heal. Edited March 5, 2012 by Inevitable 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Connerjade Posted March 6, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 6, 2012 Travel can probably be more perfectly described as space, which would work a little better for Inevitable's statement that it is a thing. The problem is I don't understand time giving back limbs unless we go in the past, and I already noted my issue with that. Inevitable is right when he says that Life is galactically useless unless we make people the center of the galaxy, which they very well might be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aeshdan he/him Posted March 7, 2012 Report Share Posted March 7, 2012 Ok, "mystical energy" was a poor choice of words. It's more... Gravity is a thing, it can be identified as this single phenomina, revolving around mass and pulling forces Pressure is a thing as well. Concentrations, volume, that stuff. Travel is... too uncertain right now to say anything about. Might be to do with dimensions and warping reality... Soulcasting is also difficult to work out. Presumably it could be described as Matter. Which is something clear Time (unconfirmed) is a thing. The progression of past to future. "Life" is just a set of reactions. It has no inherent power, indeed, would appear to be just a product of Matter, and therefore should be subject to Soulcasting, which is why Soulcasting can, infact heal. Soulcasting is just as much a product of matter as Life. They both work by manipulating the bonds between matter. And you still haven't dealt with my point that nearly every other magic enhances Life (Allomancy, Feruchemy, and AonDor directly, AonDor, Awakening, and all Surgebinding indirectly). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inevitable Posted March 7, 2012 Report Share Posted March 7, 2012 Soulcasting is just as much a product of matter as Life. They both work by manipulating the bonds between matter. And you still haven't dealt with my point that nearly every other magic enhances Life (Allomancy, Feruchemy, and AonDor directly, AonDor, Awakening, and all Surgebinding indirectly). I wouldn't describe Soulcasting as a "product" of matter as such. Soulcasting is, rather, the mastery of matter and the bonds that make it up. Stormlight is like a drug. When it's in your system it effectively replaces the normal sources of energy, including oxygen. What it provides is a super version, enhancing your physical body. The other systems operate on the same principle. They don't enhance "Life", they enhance the body's properties. You could argue that those are the same thing, but I've already pointed out that healing is basically just Soulcasting but with added complexities. Making it a unique surge in these circumstances would be like making Weight different to Gravity. There's just no point. Of course, I admit that there may end up being a Life surge. I just think the idea is absurd. But that's the point really. Surely you see why I think this without me explaining it? You must be able to tell that Life just isn't as... important as the other things. It doesn't, as such, deserve to be in the same tier as Gravity and Pressure. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Telcontar Posted March 7, 2012 Report Share Posted March 7, 2012 I'm totally with you, Inevitable. And you express every objection I have to life being a Surge and more. Good job! I'd like to throw in another possible Surge: light. I'm absolutely no physicist but I believe light is both particles and waves. of course wikipedia could help, but I wouldn't understand it... Light is essential for the development of life on Earth, making photosynthesis possible, which is of course the production of oxygen which we need to live. The only backup though for light is Teft's comment that KR could command the sunlight. That is of course how the manipulation of a Surge would appear to normal people. Also there is those comments about "lightweaving". I think there is a quote from Brandon that says that lightweaving is going to be in the SA. Finally, I'm again referring to another brandonquote that the magic systems are basically all the same. (I was talking about time back then.) That's why I think that other magic systems can give us clues about Surgebinding. We've seen manipulation of light in Elantris with the Aon which gives light. And with the illusion Raoden creates. What are your thoughts on this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aiken Frost he/him Posted March 7, 2012 Report Share Posted March 7, 2012 But that's the point really. Surely you see why I think this without me explaining it? You must be able to tell that Life just isn't as... important as the other things. It doesn't, as such, deserve to be in the same tier as Gravity and Pressure. Oh, but it is important as hell. I mean, I am very much alive and I like being in this way. Life is damnation important to me. I could live without gravity. I'm sure it must be weird and have its problems. But damnation, I'm sure would rather have no gravity than no life. And really, without life? No cosmere or the books either. If life didn't exist, then there would be no shardholders, no mistborns, no elantrians. All the problem behind the Mistborn trilogy was the fight of two shards for the creation and subsequent destruction of Life in a barren world. Preservation and Ruin agreed to create Life in Scadrial with the point that Ruin would destroy it eventually, but Preservation tried to stop him. All that happened was because of Life. We could say almost the same about all the books and I would bet that the Cosmere Metaplot is basically this, too. All happened because of Life, in a way or another. So, yeah. Life is definitely a Thing, with a enormous "T". It might not be a surge, but it is damnation well important enough to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odium's_Shard Posted March 7, 2012 Report Share Posted March 7, 2012 I think that your description of Life as 'unimportant' is absurd. I agree 100% with Aiken Frost in that Life is, well, the epicentre of usefulness for all those other things. Without Life, who would be here to give a damnation about Gravity? However, I do not think it is a Surge. I think that the things that Surges do should be helpful, in some way, to Life, after all, what would be their point other than to affect Life? If they didn't, nobody would bother with them. However, Life itself as a Surge would do the job of every other Surge, by its very definition, and so the others would have no point in existence. Pressure, Life would control. We need Pressure to be able to breath. Etc. Life would just be to powerful a Surge, and would make others redundant. And Brandon never over-powers his magic systems. They have to be balanced. Otherwise, Odium would always win, save a deus ex machina. And that is the bane of ALL plotlines, and Brandon would never resort to such a horrific thing as a DEM. Never. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inevitable Posted March 8, 2012 Report Share Posted March 8, 2012 Oh, but it is important as hell. I mean, I am very much alive and I like being in this way. Life is damnation important to me. I could live without gravity. I'm sure it must be weird and have its problems. But damnation, I'm sure would rather have no gravity than no life. And really, without life? No cosmere or the books either. If life didn't exist, then there would be no shardholders, no mistborns, no elantrians. All the problem behind the Mistborn trilogy was the fight of two shards for the creation and subsequent destruction of Life in a barren world. Preservation and Ruin agreed to create Life in Scadrial with the point that Ruin would destroy it eventually, but Preservation tried to stop him. All that happened was because of Life. We could say almost the same about all the books and I would bet that the Cosmere Metaplot is basically this, too. All happened because of Life, in a way or another. So, yeah. Life is definitely a Thing, with a enormous "T". It might not be a surge, but it is damnation well important enough to be. "If a tree falls in the woods and there's no one around to hear it, does it make a sound?" Personal bias. This is a typical example of Anthropocentrism. Essentially it's that humans have a habit of perceiving themselves as the centre of all things. And yes, I do include myself in this. Everyone does it, without even realising it. It's even in the name: "Human" confers a notion of "humanity". We've named ourselves after an ideal. I'd imagine a hypothetical alien would find this terminology insulting. Anyway, though you don't specifically refer to humanity, but rather the nebulous concept of "life", you do go on to define its importance based on the the observation and understanding of the universe by our species. You argue that you'd rather have no gravity than no life. But this is meaningless. If there was no life, the Universe wouldn't ground to a halt. Everything keeps spinning whether we're around to watch it or not. What's more is you're not even talking about Life in the same way we were before. Then it was Life as a healing force. A magic clearly based in the Physical Realm. Now you're talking about intelligence and observation. Clearly Cognitive and Spiritual, which I said earlier I'd rather not deal with, as both of those are completely fictional. Therefore the importance of "Thought" (to discern it from the healing, physical aspected, "Life") within the cosmere can be discussed all you want. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Connerjade Posted March 8, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 8, 2012 As someone who hasn't really touched most sciences in years, is a surge called Life but essentially meaning biology viable? Yes, biology is also not something that matters on a galactic scale, but it does matter on a planetary scale, which is what I think the standard level of influence that a surge should have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aiken Frost he/him Posted March 8, 2012 Report Share Posted March 8, 2012 "If a tree falls in the woods and there's no one around to hear it, does it make a sound?" Personal bias. This is a typical example of Anthropocentrism. Essentially it's that humans have a habit of perceiving themselves as the centre of all things. And yes, I do include myself in this. Everyone does it, without even realising it. It's even in the name: "Human" confers a notion of "humanity". We've named ourselves after an ideal. I'd imagine a hypothetical alien would find this terminology insulting. Anyway, though you don't specifically refer to humanity, but rather the nebulous concept of "life", you do go on to define its importance based on the the observation and understanding of the universe by our species. You argue that you'd rather have no gravity than no life. But this is meaningless. If there was no life, the Universe wouldn't ground to a halt. Everything keeps spinning whether we're around to watch it or not. About the tree falling. Does it affect any character or the story in any way? If it doesn't, then it not only makes no sound, but doesn't happen at all. It isn't anthropocentrism, because I'm not judging it based in our universe, where only our planet, for all we know, have life and it have and impact on things. I'm talking about a fictional universe where living gods make war over worlds for nothing more than the destiny of the life in it. If there were no life, there would be no shardholders and no story. No surges, either, because the shards would not travel anywhere and would not interact with planets and create no magic systems. Surgebinding only exists because of life, really. Because a person controlled a shard and got to Roshar. In the end, life is the driving force behind everything in the Cosmere and its stories. In our universe, life might be inconsequential. But it is not necessarily so in the Cosmere. I can say that gravity is even less important than life. Without gravity, the universe would still exist. It would be a weird, gravity-less universe, sure. Bizarre, I think. But then we would be creatures of a gravity-less universe and would not miss it. But without life? The universe might as well not exist at all. With no one to experience it, to discover it, to do stuff in it... What's the point? Big rocks and balls of fire in a void? I mean, why would be an universe with no Liv Tyler in it? Just not worth the cosmic time, really. What's more is you're not even talking about Life in the same way we were before. Then it was Life as a healing force. A magic clearly based in the Physical Realm. Now you're talking about intelligence and observation. Clearly Cognitive and Spiritual, which I said earlier I'd rather not deal with, as both of those are completely fictional. Therefore the importance of "Thought" (to discern it from the healing, physical aspected, "Life") within the cosmere can be discussed all you want. One would think that Surgebinding is as fictional as the Cosmere, no? And for all we know, everything have the physical, cognitive and spiritual aspect to it, not only life. A half eaten carrot, a goblet (ask Shallan), a sword, a dog... Even a rock have a cognitive and spiritual aspect to it. By refusing to deal with it, you are ignoring two of three fundamental aspects that deal with the magic of Cosmere. Ah. Remember as well that only a person, bound to a spren, can do surgebinding. Or any magic at all. Life, then, is pretty necessary to magic, don't you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triasmus Posted March 8, 2012 Report Share Posted March 8, 2012 (edited) Eh..... I'm gonna have to go with Inevitable in the recent discussion with Aiken, but against him on the "life shouldn't be a surge" platform. I can easily see life being a "healing" type of surge. Like what was already said, Brandon did say that the magic systems all have similarities. There's illusion magic. One could argue a not-very-well-thought-out-argument that the pressure surge and steel/iron p-ing are closely tied together. More examples that I'm sick of trying to think of. There's all the healing in the other systems, and I don't really think that transformation would be very good at healing at all. ooooo, I wonder if there's some type of "command" surge, like with awakening... oh, and with how I think of sound and noise ( a vibration of air molecules caused by "something" that one's ear can (not does) translate into something recognizable [can be translated into something recognized as "noise" ]), a tree falling in a forest does make noise/a sound. Edited March 8, 2012 by Lantern13 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odium's_Shard Posted March 8, 2012 Report Share Posted March 8, 2012 Just doesn't have an impact (immediately). I have to agree there should be a 'healing' surge, but just as Gold Feruchemy and Pewter Allomancy, it should have limiting factors, otherwisedly it would be far too overpowered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Telcontar Posted March 8, 2012 Report Share Posted March 8, 2012 I wonder if there's some type of "command" surge, like with awakening... Szeth and Kaladin command the Surgelight into objects or people. Soulcasting surely requires the command to Transform once you know how to do it and don't do it by accident like Shallan does with the goblet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aeshdan he/him Posted March 8, 2012 Report Share Posted March 8, 2012 But that's the point really. Surely you see why I think this without me explaining it? You must be able to tell that Life just isn't as... important as the other things. It doesn't, as such, deserve to be in the same tier as Gravity and Pressure. Just so you know, all your arguments are fine. I don't agree with them, but I respect them. But this is just bad. Assuming without proof that i think my position is wrong? I'm sorry, but i think that earns a downvote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aiken Frost he/him Posted March 8, 2012 Report Share Posted March 8, 2012 Eh..... I'm gonna have to go with Inevitable in the recent discussion with Aiken, but against him on the "life shouldn't be a surge" platform. Huhauha, awesome. With you, we are officially all over the place in our positions: People that think "Life" is significant AND a Surge; People that think "Life" is important BUT NOT a Surge; People that think "Life" is meaningless BUT IS a Surge; And people that think "Life" is meaningless AND NOT a Surge. The full spectrum. oh, and with how I think of sound and noise ( a vibration of air molecules caused by "something" that one's ear can (not does) translate into something recognizable [can be translated into something recognized as "noise" ]), a tree falling in a forest does make noise/a sound. Yes, talking about real life, I agree with you. But my point was about the book. The tree only exists at all, much less fall and make a noise, if it is important to the story. Life is of ultimate importance if the Cosmere work that way, despite how inconsequential it is (or not) to OUR universe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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