Tamriel Wolfsbaine Posted November 16, 2023 Posted November 16, 2023 So we all understand that investiture resists investiture. How invested are Kandra spikes? It would seem that Tensoon was able to resist Ruins influence longer than other Kandra thanks to the blessing of presence even with a 2nd blessing on board. But could an inheritance of a heightening or two... or more... seal off the weakness of hemalurgy? Could you protect yourself from allomamtic control and shardic control if you held enough breaths? Just using random figures to plug a number. If 50 breaths is the first heightening and it protected the hemaurgist from shardic control after the 4th spike do you think each spike following would require an exponential amount of breath to counteract that? It could be far higher as well. But do you think a Kandra holding the 5th heightening would be able to completely block out Harmony that way without needing to sacrifice their sanity by giving up a spike? Likewise do you think this would allow Kandra to carry more and more blessings? Potentially a single super kandra with all 4 blessings and immune to shardic / allomantic control? 1
Trusk'our he/him Posted November 17, 2023 Posted November 17, 2023 (edited) 3 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: So we all understand that investiture resists investiture. How invested are Kandra spikes? Most likely not very much. They were almost certainly Invested using non-Allomancers as they take human attributes (perhaps with the exception of ReLuur's pewter spikes, though that also may just be some exotic form of attribute rather than a true power). They are slightly more Invested than the spikes prepared for Koloss creation, however, as they take more Spiritweb than Koloss spikes. Spoiler https://wob.coppermind.net/events/90/#e4652 Questioner What's the difference between a spike prepared for a Koloss and a spike prepared for a Mistwraith or Kandra? What side effects might occur from... [?]... Koloss spikes? Brandon Sanderson It's the pieces of the soul that are being ripped off and the amount of the soul that's being ripped off. That's a big part of it. What side effects would there be? You would probably not get something as intelligent. Questioner What's the difference in how you prepare those spikes? Brandon Sanderson The Koloss spikes, you've seen how they're done. The Kandra spikes were prepared by the Lord Ruler. He gave them to them, and so we don't know what he did, at least in canon. Questioner 2 That means that we kind of screwed up the role playing. Brandon Sanderson You can totally do- I imagine all the role playing happening in a slightly different alternate universe, where there are slight variations and differences. But yeah, there are no- Kandra spikes are prepared and given by the Lord Ruler, they didn't even know how to make them themselves. I mean they had an inkling of what went on, but they didn't know. 3 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: But could an inheritance of a heightening or two... or more... seal off the weakness of hemalurgy? Could you protect yourself from allomamtic control and shardic control if you held enough breaths? Theoretically, I think something like this is possible. For example, Susebron could potentially shrug off even Rashek's Soothing due to his massive amount of Breath, so a Hemalurgist doing the same to resist the Flaw seems likely. Spoiler https://wob.coppermind.net/events/367/#e11830 Questioner God-King versus God-King. Susebron versus Rashek, who comes out on top? Brandon Sanderson Rashek, probably. Questioner By a lot or a little? Brandon Sanderson Well, here's the thing. I think Susebron is at the disadvantage in almost every situation. Questioner Okay. How so? Brandon Sanderson Rashek has been alive longer. Rashek knows what he's doing. Rashek has martial training. Rashek has killed a lot of people, Susebron never has. Fewer scruples. His magic is way more combat-oriented. He can get out of range a lot easier. He has power emotional Allomancy, which Susebron would *inaudible*. Granted, he's got so much investiture, he may be able to shrug that off. But still, I would put Rashek at the advantage. But I think that this would probably be harder to do than you're suggesting. A single or second Heighteing just isn't that much Investiture when compared to things like Shards. Now, Trellium spikes don't seem to have any trouble effectively sealing up the Flaw from anything their Investiture would repel (anything not Autonomy, basically), and they aren't super Invested (not as much as the Godking anyway), so perhaps it's easier to shore up a Hemalurgist's spiritual holes than I'm imagining. 3 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: Just using random figures to plug a number. If 50 breaths is the first heightening and it protected the hemaurgist from shardic control after the 4th spike do you think each spike following would require an exponential amount of breath to counteract that? I don't know if the amount needed would be exponential, though I definitely think you'd need more Investiture in total to resist the Flaw. I firmly believe the reason a Shard can only take control of a Hemalurgist when pierced by four or more spikes is because the Shard has a finite amount of Investiture that they can squeeze into the cracks made by Hemalurgic spikes. Otherwise, any crack in the Spiritweb- even natural ones not made by Hemalurgy- should let a Shard control someone, as they have a functionally infinite amount of Investiture to wield. This means that the more you crack open your Spirtweb with Hemalurgic spikes, the more Investiture you need to resist outside influence. 3 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: It could be far higher as well. But do you think a Kandra holding the 5th heightening would be able to completely block out Harmony that way without needing to sacrifice their sanity by giving up a spike? Likewise do you think this would allow Kandra to carry more and more blessings? Potentially a single super kandra with all 4 blessings and immune to shardic / allomantic control? Possibly. Hard to say how much actual Investiture would be needed, but I think a better, more efficient rout to become immune to the Flaw would utilize Investiture to directly oppose external forces rather than just piling on more raw Investiture, such as with A-copper, H-copper, H-zinc, and F-electrum all used in amounts greater than normal (i.e., Compounding and supercharged Hemalurgic spikes). I think that making a Kandra effectively immune to the Flaw through Investiture is possible, I just don't know how much would be needed yet. And of course, though I'm confident I understand the Flaw and Shardic interactions with it, I don't know for certain if this is how it works. Edited November 17, 2023 by Trusk'our
alder24 Posted November 17, 2023 Posted November 17, 2023 14 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: How invested are Kandra spikes? More invested than a normal Scadrian, less than a Mistborn. Spoiler Questioner (on behalf of Yata) When someone is spiked, and dies, does that affect the time they spend in the Cognitive? Brandon Sanderson If they are spiked, yes because if you are extra Invested, which spiking technically does, if you have a spike stapling a bit of someone else's soul to yours-- Questioner The other way. Someone spikes through you and you die-- Brandon Sanderson Ohhhhh, oh okay, no, that might make you go faster. Questioner Is that why Harmony doesn’t know who's spiking people? Or-- Brandon Sanderson Hmm. Yeah. Okay. I had not considered that. But yeah, sure. *laughter* Suuureee. You added to the canon. I mean, the actual answer was, when you're spiking somebody, you're ripping of the soul, so kind of, there's not enough left to talk. I mean, you're ripping off enough of the soul, so it's a bad thing. It's a very bad thing. So you go "Who killed you?" and it's just somebody who is essentially-- But yes, they would go faster too. Arcanum Unbounded Chicago signing (Dec. 6, 2016) . 14 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: It would seem that Tensoon was able to resist Ruins influence longer than other Kandra thanks to the blessing of presence even with a 2nd blessing on board. More or less yes. But a Kandra with the Blessing of Presence (or Stability) only would still fall to Shard's influence, this doesn't grant Kandra full immunity to Shard or emotional Allomancy. Spoiler Dalenthas Was TenSoon more susceptible to Ruin's powers than the other Kandra because he took OreSeur's Blessings? Brandon Sanderson Yes, he was. However, the Blessing of Presence actually enhanced his mind to make him more resistant, so they balanced out. Hero of Ages Q&A - Time Waster's Guide (Oct. 15, 2008) 14 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: But could an inheritance of a heightening or two... or more... seal off the weakness of hemalurgy? Seal it off fully? No. Make you more resistant - yes (granted for Shards it wouldn't change much, just a little delay like in the case of TenSoon). You would need a lot of investiture to be fully resistant to emotional Allomancy (which is what the flaw of Hemalurgy is). Spoiler Questioner God-King versus God-King. Susebron versus Rashek, who comes out on top? Brandon Sanderson Rashek, probably. Questioner By a lot or a little? Brandon Sanderson Well, here's the thing. I think Susebron is at the disadvantage in almost every situation. Questioner Okay. How so? Brandon Sanderson Rashek has been alive longer. Rashek knows what he's doing. Rashek has martial training. Rashek has killed a lot of people, Susebron never has. Fewer scruples. His magic is way more combat-oriented. He can get out of range a lot easier. He has power emotional Allomancy, which Susebron would *inaudible*. Granted, he's got so much investiture, he may be able to shrug that off. But still, I would put Rashek at the advantage. Skyward release party (Nov. 6, 2018)
Duxredux he/him Posted November 17, 2023 Posted November 17, 2023 13 minutes ago, alder24 said: More invested than a normal Scadrian, less than a Mistborn. Hide contents Questioner (on behalf of Yata) When someone is spiked, and dies, does that affect the time they spend in the Cognitive? Brandon Sanderson If they are spiked, yes because if you are extra Invested, which spiking technically does, if you have a spike stapling a bit of someone else's soul to yours-- Questioner The other way. Someone spikes through you and you die-- Brandon Sanderson Ohhhhh, oh okay, no, that might make you go faster. Questioner Is that why Harmony doesn’t know who's spiking people? Or-- Brandon Sanderson Hmm. Yeah. Okay. I had not considered that. But yeah, sure. *laughter* Suuureee. You added to the canon. I mean, the actual answer was, when you're spiking somebody, you're ripping of the soul, so kind of, there's not enough left to talk. I mean, you're ripping off enough of the soul, so it's a bad thing. It's a very bad thing. So you go "Who killed you?" and it's just somebody who is essentially-- But yes, they would go faster too. Arcanum Unbounded Chicago signing (Dec. 6, 2016) . My reading of that is that a Hemalurgist has extra Investiture because of the presence of the spike, not that the kandra spike itself is more invested than a normal Scadrian. I would say that Hemalurgic spikes have a bit more Investiture than the chunk of soul that they ripped out when created, as I'm guessing there is an additional measure of Ruin's Investiture that is facilitating the process (as we know that even Nightblood has some of Ruin's Investiture, so it seems to me that we do see Ruin's power has a presence outside of Atium). I don't know how much of Ruin's Investiture this is, or if it makes you more susceptible to external influence rather than less. Beyond that, the amount of Investiture in the spike will be dependent on how Invested the donor was and how much of the soul was ripped out. I'm guessing the amount in a typical spike is less than 2 Breaths, possibly less than 1. It's a fraction of a soul, with maybe a hint of Ruin's Investiture in the mix. For the original question, it's complicated. Kandra are the weird case among Hemalurgy as they require spikes to become sapient and they become more aware and stable when they have a complete Blessing. We know that more spikes means more susceptibility to Ruin, but what we don't know is if they suffer the same limitations that Steel Inquisitors have in spike count. As we know, a human soul with lots of spikes becomes so distorted that it requires a linchpin spike to hold their body and soul together. I don't know if Kandra have the same threshold or not, if they would need a linchpin, nor do I know how that would work with their fluid nature. There's also the issue where creating a Steel Inquisitor is no longer possible as Ruin has become subservient to Preservation within Harmony, as the distortion to the soul has been unconsciously limited by Sazed. It seems quite plausible that this restriction also extends to Kandra, which is not something that Breath can overcome. As it is, in terms of becoming immune to the flaw, a rather simple question should be asked. Does MeLaan's Aluminum True Body protect her from being taken over by an Allomancer or a Shard? Aluminum disrupts emotional Allomancy like a field. Do we already have a solution in place that we've seen on screen? It's a simple, well known solution and will become substantially cheaper in later eras. It helps in the sense that if you manage to remove all of a Kandra's bones, then they're basically at your mercy anyway so it's a more resilient and reliable solution than just wearing an aluminum hat. The Aluminum True Body doesn't seem to slow MeLaan down or give her any problems either. Spoiler Questioner Is aluminum shielding from emotional Allomancy strictly line of sight? So, can someone in the basement bypass somebody’s aluminum hat on the first floor Brandon Sanderson No, they could not. You just put enough aluminum there and it disrupts. Questioner So it disrupts like a field. Brandon Sanderson Yep. Shadows of Self San Francisco signing (Oct. 9, 2015)
alder24 Posted November 17, 2023 Posted November 17, 2023 5 minutes ago, Duxredux said: My reading of that is that a Hemalurgist has extra Investiture because of the presence of the spike, not that the kandra spike itself is more invested than a normal Scadrian Kandra, or rather Mistwraiths, are normal Scadirans, they are people with blockade between PR and CR. They would be similarly invested to an average Scadrian, despite their animalistic nature. They were made out of people. Every spike is extra invested, it is carrying investiture, pieces of soul, thus investing Mistwraiths more, above average level. That's what I was saying. Spoiler NinjaMeTimbers How intelligent is a mistwraith? Could you raise and train mistwraiths like dogs or horses, controlling what forms they take by the bones you give them? Would you be able to train yourself a horsewraith steed by giving it only the bones of a horse? Brandon Sanderson This is feasible. One thing to keep in mind is that mistwraiths are people who have a blockage between the Physical and the Cognitive Realm, messing with their ability to think. Think of them as mentally-stunted people. There's enough there to train, but then you have to dig into the ethics of it... 17th Shard Forum Q&A (Sept. 27, 2012)
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