Hoid's Torment

[Onironte he/him]

Nomad didn't have too many problems getting rid of the Torment imposed by his Dawnshard. How old is he? 200 years at most?

And almost casually, he frees himself from his Torment.

Hoid was at least 11,000 years old in WoK, and is probably one of the individuals with the most knowledge of the Cosmere.

How is it possible that a person –no offense– relatively new to understanding the Investiture has managed to free himself from its torment before a Radiant, Elantrian, Mistborn and Awakener who maintains letter conversations with the shards?

Is there a reason Hoid would choose to keep his Torment, or does being a bearer of a Dawnshard for a longer period of time come with more limitations?

Or am I missing something completely different?

[Elegy he/him]

There is a small discussion already here:

There are some interesting things there, but I still think that this issue is largely not understood. I believe the reason for that is that we don't know when and for how long Hoid exactly had the Dawnshard and what effects come from directly carrying it and which ones come from having carried it in the past. Just too many unknowns to really come to good conclusions imo

[Leonpaintbrush]

Hi Onironte,

Interesting questions posed here. I have a few thoughts that are wide ranging and maybe not directly applicable to the question asked:

First, it seems you state that Nomad "got rid" of the torment. While I'm not sure if I'm remembering correctly, I think that he only successfully managed to skim a portion of the torment away from his spirit web--just enough to be able to better function as he needed to within the story. The change that a Dawnshard has on the bearer is compared to scar tissue, if I'm not mistaken. This is likely related to the intent of the source of investiture--in this case the Dawnshard. Though Dawnshards are a primal command of Adonalsium, and a tool, they likely carry his Intent in their making. This line of reasoning follows from the laws that we see at play in Awakening on Nalthis. The command words are a way for Awakeners to channel their Intent, but are not their Intent in totality. Much like Nightblood's command words were "Destroy Evil", those words only serve as a refined nexus point for the instillation of the Awakener's "True Intent." What Vasher and Shashara actually Intended with Nightblood is in question, and their perceptions of what "evil" and "Destroy" mean, as Returned, as Nalthians, as Worldhoppers, all likely come into play in some form or fashion in how we have seen Nightblood grow and change in line with its commanded Intent.

Getting back to Nomad, it is unlikely, then, that he has "gotten rid" of his torment. He has likely merely lessened its effects, for a time. As you stated, it would be weird for someone who is not Hoid to have figured out a way to magically get rid of something that Hoid himself still seems to be grappling with on a deep realmatic level. If this possibility is an absurdity to us as readers, then I think we can assume that it is not the author's intent that our take away is that Nomad has accomplished this feat.

Second question: Is there a reason Hoid would choose to keep his Torment, or does being a bearer of a Dawnshard for a longer period of time come with more limitations?

We dont know if Hoid does, in fact, still retain his torment. Nomad speculates that he has overcome it by some means, and merely plays into an act. I, however, think that the factors that you mentioned, such as holding the Dawnshard for a prolonged period of time, absolutely would have a pronounced effect on a being's spiritweb. Much like holding a regular shard, if one holds a Dawnshard, they are being affected by its particularized Intent. For Hoid, the effects, at least at one point, were stated to be such that he cannot cause harm to others and that he can no longer eat meat. I'm sure there are other effects that have been mentioned as well. If Hoid held his Dawnshard for a very long time, it seems rational that he would have more "scar tissue" built up on his spirit web by the Dawnshard's Intent.

Now, if Hoid did manage to lose his Torment at one time, I think a good option for why he is currently afflicted by it is because of the Old Magic and the Nightwatcher. We have a Word of Brandon on point that says that Hoid visited the Nightwatcher. But we don't know why he did so. While it could be that he was merely trying to talk to Cultivation--and he has admitted openly in Stormlight Archive that he knows Cultivation is avoiding him--he could have also been visiting the Nightwatcher specifically to get a boon and a curse, much like any other pilgrim. Depending on the boon he asked for, it would be pretty fitting for him to be bound by a Torment that he thought himself free of. Of course, this is wild rampant speculation on my part. I think the most likely case is that Hoid held his Dawnshard for so long that it caused a massive amount of "scar tissue" on his spirit web--so much so that it is likely very hard if not impossible to remove. As such, he is still affected by his Torment because he never cured it in the first place.

[JohnnyKaizen he/him]

23 hours ago, Onironte said:

Nomad didn't have too many problems getting rid of the Torment imposed by his Dawnshard. How old is he? 200 years at most?

And almost casually, he frees himself from his Torment.

Hoid was at least 11,000 years old in WoK, and is probably one of the individuals with the most knowledge of the Cosmere.

How is it possible that a person –no offense– relatively new to understanding the Investiture has managed to free himself from its torment before a Radiant, Elantrian, Mistborn and Awakener who maintains letter conversations with the shards?

Is there a reason Hoid would choose to keep his Torment, or does being a bearer of a Dawnshard for a longer period of time come with more limitations?

Or am I missing something completely different?

The simplest answer to me is that Hoid was/is Sig's teacher and mentor. Students of excellent teachers will surpass them in myriad ways. Also..Hoid makes the comment, "You've probably seen more of the Cosmere than I have at this point.." So, if Hoid had shown up on Canticle and seen what Sig saw...I would find it impossible to believe that he wouldn't have made the same connection.

[alder24]

On 11/9/2023 at 8:07 PM, Onironte said:

Nomad didn't have too many problems getting rid of the Torment imposed by his Dawnshard. How old is he? 200 years at most?

And almost casually, he frees himself from his Torment.

Hoid was at least 11,000 years old in WoK, and is probably one of the individuals with the most knowledge of the Cosmere.

How is it possible that a person –no offense– relatively new to understanding the Investiture has managed to free himself from its torment before a Radiant, Elantrian, Mistborn and Awakener who maintains letter conversations with the shards?

Is there a reason Hoid would choose to keep his Torment, or does being a bearer of a Dawnshard for a longer period of time come with more limitations?

Or am I missing something completely different?

Hoid doesn't consider this to be a Torment but more like a blessing, he wouldn't want to get rid of this. Another thing is that Hoid held the Dawnshard for much longer than Sigzil, which warped his spirit web so much that it's practically impossible to kill him, unlike Sig who can be killed if he runs out of investiture. In that case it would be much harder to get rid of that (but Oaths can overwrite the Torment and Hoid is a Radiant now - he already dealt with it in his own way). Ch 10:

Quote

“So it’s a blessing?” Nomad asked, gesturing to himself. “This Torment you’ve given me?”
“Every Torment is,” Wit said, “even mine.”

Ch 34:

Quote

His master, who had held the Dawnshard far longer, could never die. Nomad was far from that level.

 

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

Let's talk about the Torment for a second. Hoid would not call what has happened to him a Torment. Hoid, by holding a Dawnshard, was made permanently unable to cause physical harm to other beings. Eating meat makes him nauseous (if he is somehow able to eat it, and a lot of the times he just can't). That is because of the nature of the Dawnshard that he held actively warping and changing his spirit. He would not name it this. Nomad has named what has happened to him, a Torment. This is not a term that you can universally apply as a magical aspect of something. This is Sigzil saying "this terrible thing happened to me". And indeed what is happening to Sigzil is on a level beyond what happened to Hoid. So therefore perhaps other arcanists would say, "Yes, these are an aspect of holding a Dawnshard and Torment is the right way", but that word is loaded. That word has meaning, and someone is naming it this. You are not gonna run into a large set of people- there are only four Dawnshards- and you're not gonna run into a large set of people that have held one, so there may be no consensus even in-world to what these are called, and if they are Torment or blessings or what they are. Holding a Dawnshard will warp your soul. It's so much Investiture, it is so powerful, that you cannot hold one even briefly without it having a permanent effect upon you. 

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Edited November 11, 2023 by alder24