Advanced Kandra Grafts

[Trusk'our he/him]

In the "101 Kandra Tricks" thread I came up with the idea that you could have a Kandra graft parts of themself onto a human, similar to what was done with Marasi in BoM, and how Ulaam offered to swap some of her body parts for others.

So, what could be done with these grafts?

1. Health and medicine: a Kandra could graft parts of their own flesh to a human or other creature, allowing them to patch and repair immediate wounds (such as with Marasi) or perhaps to even replace permanently damaged body parts, such as a broken spinal cord or replace a lost limb (though artificial bones would need to be provided).

2. Plastic surgery: if a Kandra's services could be hired out, I could totally see them being willing to alter the appearance of someone, making them more attractive (future Scadrial might have some nobles/famous individuals that look awfully like Returned) or creating disguises for friends (or fugitives of the law, depending on the Kandra's disposition). 

3. Bodily upgrades: a more utility based type of graft may include organs that operate at a higher capacity (stronger, denser muscles or perhaps just more added on), a higher quality of blood (perhaps for better oxygenation of muscles and other organs), better eyes or other sensory organs, or maybe bodies that can automatically use some healing function similar to that of Kandra themselves (Perhaps this is what Ulaam's salve was- a liquified portion of his own body that was meant to stick to and copy another's flesh, healing them at an exceptional rate. It would probably be more difficult to make this permanent function, but hey, we're theorizing here.)

It's also possible that there could be non-Kandra implants/grafts, such as Metalminds, Harmonium tech, or cybernetics that could be embedded in the body, but a Kandra surgeon could rearrange organs and heal the body of the patient to make the process much safer and more flexible (like a cleaner, less damaging version of Hemalurgy).

4. Age-reduction: if a Kandra could find all the tiny flaws and damage done to the body of a human through age, I see no reason they couldn't eat and replace those parts with new, healthy tissue (particularly since they have such an intimate understanding of biology down to the cellular level, as shown by Bleeder in SoS). This would be different from Atium Feruchemy, as it's a permanent physical change, not a temporary physical change that would snap back after the Kandra disconnects from the human (or other creature).

This would be particularly interesting form of immortality to see, as it brings some other questions to mind; how would the human's body act to having all of its parts removed and replaced over time (ship of Theseus situation)? What about the human's mind, which is not augmented by the process to endure centuries or millennia of life?

Edited November 4, 2023 by Trusk'our

[alder24]

I think you kind of forgot that this doesn't heal, Kandra just makes patches in the wound with a person's tissue, but the body needs to heal on its own and the wound still remains. Doing stuff like replacing muscles is outright impossible. Every surgical procedure Kandra will perform will leave a wound to heal. Yes, they're better than human surgeons, but they don't heal your body for you. BoM ch 21:

Quote

“Hmm?” MeLaan asked, pulling her arm out, the flesh forming back over her crystalline bones. “Oh. I caught a hole in the intestines, as you’d guessed. Sewed that up tight, using some catgut I made from some spare intestines I had brewing. I patched it with some of my flesh, grafted on.”
“She’ll reject the flesh.”
“Nah. I took a bite and replicated her skin. Her body will think it’s hers.”
[...]
“That grafted patch over the wound should hold until you heal on your own—I melded it to your veins and capillaries. It’s going to get itchy, but don’t scratch it, and let me know if it starts to go necrotic.”

Age reduction is impossible, especially in Cosmere where your spirit and mind know how old you are. Age affects the function of every single cell in your body, you can't "graft" this, you would literally need to replace every single cell in your body (and still your spirit would bounce your body back to its proper age after some time). 

 

[Trusk'our he/him]

25 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Age reduction is impossible, especially in Cosmere where your spirit and mind know how old you are. Age affects the function of every single cell in your body, you can't "graft" this, you would literally need to replace every single cell in your body (and still your spirit would bounce your body back to its proper age after some time). 

I don't think your Spiritual Aspect would do that, as it's a permanent physical change being made to you (unless perhaps you were highly Invested or used F-gold too soon after the procedure, which would ironically be bad in this circumstance). Your body doesn't just "snap back" from receiving a physical injury unless you utilize Investiture, so physical changes made to the body by Kandra shouldn't have this happen either, including if they were to reduce the age of someone.

One the human has accepted the change to their body (like how old wounds can be) there should be no problem with Invested healing removing such benefits.

And yes, you'd need to eventually replace every cell in the human's body. Although, bones and teeth can't be replaced by Kandra, so perhaps you'd have to have for fundamental changes made to your nature to pull something like this off, such as using the help of Hemalurgy in conjunction with the Kandra's flesh grafts.

28 minutes ago, alder24 said:

I think you kind of forgot that this doesn't heal, Kandra just makes patches in the wound with a person's tissue, but the body needs to heal on its own and the wound still remains. Doing stuff like replacing muscles is outright impossible. Every surgical procedure Kandra will perform will leave a wound to heal. Yes, they're better than human surgeons, but they don't heal your body for you. BoM ch 21:

I would argue that I still think Kandra grafts are possible, but perhaps more difficult than previously thought; maybe you need more practice than MeLaan had to make something independently functional, or maybe you need to find a way to make the Kandra graft become a spiritual part of the human (I'm thinking Hemalurgic Identity/Connection may do this).

[alder24]

5 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

I don't think your Spiritual Aspect would do that, as it's a permanent physical change being made to you (unless perhaps you were highly Invested or used F-gold too soon after the procedure, which would ironically be bad in this circumstance). Your body doesn't just "snap back" from receiving a physical injury unless you utilize Investiture, so physical changes made to the body by Kandra shouldn't have this happen either, including if they were to reduce the age of someone.

You propose to have a physical change - that's what F-Atium is doing, it physically changes you and your spirit fights back to snap your body as it should be. You need to provide investiture for your body to fight against snapping back, not the other way around. It will take time, but you will snap back faster than you want to. Your body will naturally heal to your correct age or something like that, it can even use ambient investiture to quicken that process (because simply being more invested makes you heal faster).

Spoiler

Doom-Slayer

So how do the exact mechanics of Feruchemy in relation to Compounding work?

This confusion is primarily around how [the Lord Ruler] gets his near infinite age.

Okay. So first off, I understand the concept of how they work. Feruchemy is net zero, Allomancy is net positive, combine them and you end with a net positive Feruchemy ability.

So how Feruchemy normally works... you take say weight, store half your normal weight and then you can access it whenever you want. So you (originally X weight) are taking A weight, storing it, and then you are at (X-A) weight, with access to A. So we have a metalmind that store magnitude with the efficiency of how its received based on how quickly or slowly it is drawn upon.

All the metalminds except atium seem to act this way. Atium seems to work as storing magnitude/time rather than just magnitude. The way I understand it is that say a 30 year old person becomes 50 years old for 1 day, this would give access to 20 years difference for a 1 day period.

The Lord Ruler then exploits this by gaining access to say 20 years difference over 10 days (magnification by Compounding) which he then slowly feeds into himself to lower his age.

Why this difference? I'm assuming its to maintain a neutral "body age" because with just magnitude a person could permanently make themselves younger by Compounding.

With just magnitude of "20 years of youth" being stored, if the Lord Ruler magnified it, he could turn it into "200 years of youth" and then he would never need the constant stream off youth (and wouldn't have died without the bracelets)

Hope this makes sense.

Brandon Sanderson

All right, so there are a few things you have to understand about cosmere magics to grok all of this.

First, is that magics can be hacked together. You'll see more of this in the future of the cosmere, but an early one is the hack here--where you're essentially powering Feruchemy with Allomancy. (A little more complex than that, but it seems like you get the idea.)

The piece you're missing is the nature of a person's Spiritual aspect. This is similar to a Platonic idea--the idea that there's a perfect version of everyone somewhere. It's a mix of their connections to places, people, and times with raw Investiture. The soul, you might say.

(Note that over time, a person's perception of themselves shapes their Cognitive aspect as well, and the Cognitive aspect can interfere with the Spiritual aspect trying to make the Physical aspect repair itself.) Healing in the cosmere often works by aligning your Physical self with your Spiritual self--making the Physical regrow. More powerful forms of Investiture can repair the soul as well.

However, your age is part of your Connection to places, people, and times. Your soul "knows" things, like where you were born, what Investiture you are aligned with, and--yes--how old you are. When you're healing yourself, you're restoring yourself to a perfect state--when you're done, everything is good. When you're changing your age, however, you are transforming yourself to something unnatural. Against what your soul understands to be true.

So the Spiritual aspect will push for a restoration to the way you should be. With this Compounding hack, you're not changing connection; it's a purely Physical Realm change.

This dichotomy cannot remain for long. And the greater the disparity, the more pressure the spirit will exert. Ten or twenty years won't matter much. A thousand will matter a lot. So the only way to use Compounding to change your age is to store up all this extra youth in a metalmind, then be constantly tapping it to counteract the soul's attempt to restore you to how you should be.

Yes, all of this means there are FAR more efficient means of counteracting aging than the one used by the Lord Ruler. It's a hack, and not meant to be terribly efficient. Eventually, he wouldn't have been able to maintain himself this way at all. Changing Connection (or even involving ones Cognitive Aspect a little more) would have been far more efficient, though actively more difficult.

Though this is the point where I ping [Peter Ahlstrom] and get him to double-check all this. Once in a while, my fingers still type the wrong term in places. (See silvereye vs tineye.)

General Reddit 2015 (Nov. 20, 2015)

 

11 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

I would argue that I still think Kandra grafts are possible

I didn't want to prove otherwise, just that they are more difficult and complicated than you think. It's basically an organ transplant but with a perfect match.

[Trusk'our he/him]

Just now, alder24 said:

You propose to have a physical change - that's what F-Atium is doing, it physically changes you and your spirit fights back to snap your body as it should be. You need to provide investiture for your body to fight against snapping back, not the other way around. It will take time, but you will snap back faster than you want to. Your body will naturally heal to your correct age or something like that, it can even use ambient investiture to quicken that process (because simply being more invested makes you heal faster).

I would argue that they'd stay the same, as it's a physical change that would be recorded in the SR; injuries don't snap back with no injection of Investiture into the system, and I'd argue that changes made by Kandra would align with that.

I understand this is up for debate however, and we will need more information on the topic before we can say anything definitively in either direction.

3 minutes ago, alder24 said:

I didn't want to prove otherwise, just that they are more difficult and complicated than you think. It's basically an organ transplant but with a perfect match.

You're probably right that Kandra grafts are going to be a bit harder than I originally imagined.

Do you think that Hemalurgic Identity could make such as thing more viable? For instance, if you spiked out some Identity via Hemalurgy from the Kandra and gave it to the human and then had the graft made, do you think that the graft could "merge" better with the human recipient and become a part of them on a physical and spiritual level?

[alder24]

4 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

I would argue that they'd stay the same, as it's a physical change that would be recorded in the SR; injuries don't snap back with no injection of Investiture into the system, and I'd argue that changes made by Kandra would align with that.

Injuries don't "snap back", they heal back. I'm proposing a gradual change/heal, not immediate snapping back, like we saw with Rashek. The WoB clearly states that your spirit will fight back physical changes, but lesser changes (like this one) won't be that big of a deal - this simply means that this change won't make you 20 years younger, but 4 at best, as your spirit gradually heals your body to the correct age.

No, this change won't be recorded in the SR. It can kill you if it's done too quickly, as your spirit won't recognise those body parts and concludes your body has died or something like that. 

16 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

Do you think that Hemalurgic Identity could make such as thing more viable? For instance, if you spiked out some Identity via Hemalurgy from the Kandra and gave it to the human and then had the graft made, do you think that the graft could "merge" better with the human recipient and become a part of them on a physical and spiritual level?

Possibly. Identity helps with healing and stuff like that, it's related to your Spiritual Ideal. It might help - or totally mess up your soul in an unpredictable way. 

 

8 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

You're probably right that Kandra grafts are going to be a bit harder than I originally imagined.

I've just remembered that MeLaan can be totally wrong about 'Marasi not rejecting grafts etc" - Brandon hasn't decided yet if Kandra changed down to the DNA. If this change isn't down to DNA, then grafts like you are proposing aren't possible. You definitely can't change your age. It would be at best organ transplants from unrelated donors if not Kandra's DNA would be straight out rejected by your body anytime. WoBs ~2 years after BoM: 

Spoiler

Questioner

Can a kandra have a human kid, if they're in a--

Brandon Sanderson

...So, their DNA would-- I've answered this both ways, I think, on the internet, as I go back on forth on whether I want DNA testing to be able to catch a kandra or not. I've erred on the side of, their DNA isn't human, and so they would not be compatible, but I've gone the other direction some of the time when people have asked this question. So, I guess the answer is, I have not fully decided for myself yet.

Oathbringer release party (Nov. 13, 2017)

 

Spoiler

ShadowBlaze

Would a kandra react to electrical shock differently than a human would?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, but not that much differently. It's going to depend on the kandra and if they have enough control over their bodies. A kandra that's expecting it, for instance. But a kandra that's not expecting it I think would respond like a human [being?] would.

ShadowBlaze

Could it be an effective revealing method?

Brandon Sanderson

I'm going to RAFO that the same way I've been RAFOing the question of whether they actually go down on the DNA level. So the whole point behind *inaudible* the kandra was, a blood test under Era 1 technology would not identify one. I'm going to have to decide in Era 3, I'm going to have to canonize whether, you get that under a microscope, if you can tell. And what about Era 4 you just do genetic testing, can you tell. And I don't know how I'm going to need that to go yet. And I don't know how realistic it is? And I don't know if I want to deal with the ramifications, like with human/kandra hybrids.

Right now, the way I have it, they fundamentally build their DNA in such a way, they could even have children. But I don't know if I'm going to keep that or not.

Legion Release Party (Sept. 19, 2018)

 

[Trusk'our he/him]

30 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Injuries don't "snap back", they heal back. I'm proposing a gradual change/heal, not immediate snapping back, like we saw with Rashek. The WoB clearly states that your spirit will fight back physical changes, but lesser changes (like this one) won't be that big of a deal - this simply means that this change won't make you 20 years younger, but 4 at best, as your spirit gradually heals your body to the correct age.

That argument makes more sense to me; I think some beneficial stuff could be done, but without some other factor (such as Hemalurgy), you're probably going to be more limited in what you could change, I suppose.

Perhaps instead of adding centuries to a human's lifespan it may be more like decades as a Kandra repeatedly repairs the human's body.

32 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Possibly. Identity helps with healing and stuff like that, it's related to your Spiritual Ideal. It might help - or totally mess up your soul in an unpredictable way. 

I mean, that's always a risk when Hemalurgy gets involved, but getting the practice correct could lead to major improvements.

34 minutes ago, alder24 said:

I've just remembered that MeLaan can be totally wrong about 'Marasi not rejecting grafts etc" - Brandon hasn't decided yet if Kandra changed down to the DNA. If this change isn't down to DNA, then grafts like you are proposing aren't possible. You definitely can't change your age. It would be at best organ transplants from unrelated donors if not Kandra's DNA would be straight out rejected by your body anytime. WoBs ~2 years after BoM: 

Yeah, if it's a magical thing than having a spiritual graft to compliment the physical one would seem far more likely to work.

If it's a DNA thing then there would be much bigger problems involved.

[Underwater_Worldhopper he/him]

I don't think this sort of immortality would be reverted by the Soul at all, not even gradually. A cut off arm won't heal back under any circumstances unless extra Investiture is introduced, even though it doesn't match soul. The Lord Ruler reverts because Investiture is being applied to him to make his body look young; as soon as that stops, his body goes back to how it actually is, which his soul is keeping track of. Same reason why your body doesn't keep the extra mass from F-Pewter when you stop tapping; it was being sourced from the Investiture, and now that that Investiture isn't there, you return to normal.

If your body is physically changed to be younger, then the soul wont do anything, just like how it won't do anything to grow back a severed limb or remove a scar until or unless Investiture is applied. I dont think that enough time being younger would make it safe to heal yourself, no matter what. It would always revert you to your actual age unless you manage to get so Invested your perception overrides your spiritual age.