Fantasy without magic?

[penanggalen]

Everyone says write the kind of book you would want to read. Well, I want to read a novel in an epic fantasy universe, but without the magic.

I'm curious if anyone thinks one can write fantasy without having magic, and if so... would anyone actually publish the finished product! I'm posting the question here because both Brandon Sanderson and Robert Jordan are big on magic systems. No matter how constrained or systematic magic may be presented in a novel, it has always been a distraction for me. I say that, even if I enjoyed every other part of a novel. For example, I've always been big on Tolkein, but I always appreciated the things that ground orcs, dwarves, or elves in Middle Earth, and not so much the magic. I could do without the magic. I'd rather think of those races as biological, rather than magical beings. It's the grand epic fantasy that I enjoy--the struggle for dominion over Middle Earth or some other fantasy realm.

So... would it be a fool's errand to write a book like this? I think one can still create a mixture of strange and familiar without resorting to magic. Does anyone else think this could be a successful pursuit, if written well?

[Aeshdan]

Look up Victoria Kasten at epicscrolls.com. She makes a point of writing exactly the kind of story you're asking for.

[Thought]

It depends on what you call "magic." Essentially, a lot of science fiction uses magic. As Arthur C Clarke said, "any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." Faster than light travel, energy weapons, transporters, homunculi (I mean, robots), etc are all rather magical in the regard.

Do you mean a story without any non-historical element like that? If so, then yes, though books along those lines tend to do a bit better if labeled as historical fiction, but there is no reason that the historical setting has to be, say, Rome, rather than the empire and world you create.

[J.H.McMullen]

Fantasies without magic are rare, but they do exist. (Because they're rare, they seem to be a hard sell commercially, but that doesn't make them any less valid.)

Published ones, sticking in the last say, twenty-five years. (Swordspoint might be older, but I don't think the sequel is.)

Swordspoint by Ellen Kushner.

Joel Shepherd's Trial of Blood and Steel series. I think the first is Sasha. I haven't read them, but my daughter has.

Perhaps Mary Gentle's Ash.

Mostly Ranger's Apprentice by John Flannagan, a YA. (It's a series, and in one book they deal with a magician of sorts, but mostly it's without magic, I think.)

Guy Gavriel Kay's The Lions of Al-Rasan; I think one of his others is, too.

I don't recall magic in Mervyn Peak's Ghormenghast books.

Curse of Chalion, by Lois McMaster Bujold, is close: gods and demons are real, but there's no magic, per se.

Her Majesty's Dragon has, well, dragons, but no magic. First of a series by Naomi Novik.

Jennifer Fallon's Second Sons trilogy.

[Observer]

As Arthur C Clarke said, "any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

I thought the quote was more along the lines of:

Any sufficiently explained magic is indistinquishable from technology

And any insufficiently explained technology is indisinguishable from magic.

From the above quote, it makes me wonder if Sanderson's magic systems can truly be considered magic. Realmatics get so in-depth, and sooner or later things will get pretty well-defined. Just a question I was contemplating this morning.

[penanggalen]

I thought the quote was more along the lines of:

Any sufficiently explained magic is indistinquishable from technology

And any insufficiently explained technology is indisinguishable from magic.

Actually, this is Halpern’s Corollary, not Arthur C. Clarke's quote. Much of magical realism relies upon that kind of logic, but it still jolts me from the story.

[StormAtlas]

If written well I like fantasy without a solid magic system. Its hard to completely eliminate magic from a work of fantasy but I think its possible, though personal I enjoy a world system that is not really magicless but rather magic light.

I guess Im trying to describe a world where magic is rare and has a subtle presence in the background but isn't really in your face. Its mysterious, complicated, and maybe even unknown.

One series that comes to mind is the first few books of G.R Martins Song of Ice and Fire. You can tell that magic is present in the world but its old, forgotten, and dosnt really reappear until later in the series.

Edited November 18, 2012 by StormAtlas

[PenandSword]

Absolutely can be done, and can be done well.

 

I hate when fantasy is confined to abide by certain rules. The entire genre exists to push those boundaries away, not adhere to them.

 

If you want a fantasy epic completely without magic you should check out A Land of Our Own. There is some myth in the backstory but it does not even appear in the story itself. It reads like a classic adventure narrative set  hundreds of years ago in a far-off world.

[Swimmingly]

Absolutely can be done, and can be done well.

I hate when fantasy is confined to abide by certain rules. The entire genre exists to push those boundaries away, not adhere to them.

If you want a fantasy epic completely without magic you should check out A Land of Our Own. There is some myth in the backstory but it does not even appear in the story itself. It reads like a classic adventure narrative set hundreds of years ago in a far-off world.

So, a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away?

[Gabriele]

Yeah, Guy Gavriel Kay is very low on magic, as is Jacqueline Carey in her Kushiel series (though that one got some sex). GRR Martin, as mentioned, has magic only in the background in the first books.

 

You might also look into historical fiction. There's a lot out with all the fun aspects of recent Fantasy, politics, big battles, grey characters and sometime even heroic deeds. I can give a list here if people want.

 

EDIT: Just noticed this is the Creator thread. Such a list should probably go into Other Books.

Edited April 9, 2014 by Gabriele

[PeterAhlstrom]

If it doesn't have magic, I don't consider it fantasy. It's alternate-world historical fiction. It's still speculative fiction, but I just can't call it fantasy.

 

Example: Half a King by Joe Abercrombie.

[Gabriele]

And to add to the confusion we get historical fiction with all the historical characters and battles right there, but with angels and devils on top of it, like Mark Alder's new book that's going to be out this month.

 

Well, I take whatever combination as long as it's a good read.

[Mistdork]

If it doesn't have magic, I don't consider it fantasy. It's alternate-world historical fiction. It's still speculative fiction, but I just can't call it fantasy.

 

What about a world with other (non-magical) races sit in the past of that world? Would that be historical Science Fiction? Or would people consider it lone-end fantasy just because it's medieval with aliens? And in such a setting, even things that are more or less scientific could seem fantastic because it's hard to explain genetics, biology, etc in that sitting, thus making it appear magical to the characters and, in turn, the readers despite that is not. What would you call that?

[PeterAhlstrom]

Good question. I'd also say that's technically science fiction, but depending on the fantasy flavor of the language it could still appeal to fantasy fans. It's definitely speculative fiction. However, when there are other intelligent species, I pay a lot of attention to whether there's any real reason for them to be another species or if the story would work just as well if they were humans too.

[WriteNowDave]

Devils advocate: So is a walking talking mickey mouse race magic or fantasy without magic? Mickey can't use magic but who is to say there aren't unicorns or even mermaids.

 

OOPS I accidentally clicked the "REPORT" button instead of the reply so I just reported PeterAhlstrom to the admins by mistake thinking it was the quote screen.

 

NOOB ALERT... my bad.

[Rubix]

OOPS I accidentally clicked the "REPORT" button instead of the reply so I just reported PeterAhlstrom to the admins by mistake thinking it was the quote screen.

 

NOOB ALERT... my bad.

No worries. We were more confused by it than anything.

[Eerongal]

No worries. We were more confused by it than anything.

 

Nope, we're totally banning peter now over it.

 

[PeterAhlstrom]

Ouch.

 

Mickey Mouse is anatomically improbable, and I've seen some of the things he can do with his limbs a la Mr. Fantastic. I'd say magical.

[WriteNowDave]

Ouch.

 

Mickey Mouse is anatomically improbable, and I've seen some of the things he can do with his limbs a la Mr. Fantastic. I'd say magical.

Something tells me you are mousing around the real question.

 

(and why aren't you banned yet?)

[Awesomeness Summoned]

(and why aren't you banned yet?)

I'd love to see how that conversation would go between Peter and the admins

[Cracknut]

First Law does have some magic in it but mostly it's in background and no point of view characters have it. Trilogy had more of it because Bayaz but he used it once or twice per book. Don't remember any of it in standalones though. Basically there are two magicians in whole series who make appearance and do some magic and one that is simply mentioned but they aren't focus of the story. Also one fantasy species that could be described as magical creatures but they too are few and don't make much appearance. It has magic, but it could do without it and nothing would change really. Only reason for it's existence in those books is

to have two immortal dudes playing strategy game with real countries and lives, while main story focuses on pawns not even aware of their masters.

Edited May 2, 2014 by Cracknut

[PorridgeBrick]

That last sentence is a little spoilery, Cracknut. I'd spoiler that.

[Eskridge]

I don't think magic is necessary in a good fantasy book. In fact, I think it would allow a fresh perspective and lots of room to come up with a creative idea. Fantasy generally does have magic in it, but that doesn't define what it is. Go for it and see how it turns out! 

 

Eskridge