A Couple Hemalurgy Questions

[Duxredux]

Okay, two hemalurgy thoughts. I'll let @Trusk'our tell me if anyone's already asked this, but I'm posting it here rather than in the Mistborn or Q&A channel in case it has larger implications.

Quote

Llwvyn

Hoid has said that what he does, when he heals or comes back to life or whatever, heals the soul

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Llwvyn

But Hemalurgy is like ripping off a piece of the soul. Could he heal that?

Brandon Sanderson

It is possible. Well, his particular brand of healing is very Spiritual Realm based. And so, it would-- he could. Not all brands of healing are capable. It depends on what's happening, and things like that. But yes, he would. Most Shardbearers [Surgebinders?] when they're in the throes of their powers would heal spiritually. *brief pause* Not all of them. Not all healing will do that, though.

Llwvyn

Yeah. Because I was thinking that maybe you could spike him multiple times and compound his power.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. Spiking him could do some weird things though. But spiking can do weird things to anyone.

Calamity release party (Feb. 16, 2016)

Question 1: We think of Hemalurgy as a precision art where you have to setup fine-tuned scenarios steal or grant powers. To what extent does Ruin's Intent require you to be intending to steal or grant the powers to activate Hemalurgy or can you trigger a similar intent if all you want to do is use a big hunk of metal to bludgeon off chunks of their Spiritweb? Minigun loaded with Hemalurgically viable metals? In essence, is the Intent required specific to stealing the power or can the right intent simply be to ruin or otherwise damage their soul and not just their body? Basically, does Hemalurgy have to be a spike, or can you have the right intent with a steel baseball bat and start hitting souls and not just heads? We know that Hemalurgy is a universally applicable art, so anyone can use it. So... once the secret that Hemalurgy can be used by anyone anywhere to damage souls will it become the universal poor man's Shardblade? For example, if any of the Set had figured out the correct intent when fighting Wayne, would aluminum bullets have started tearing out chunks of his soul rather than just punching holes in him that would be slightly more problematic to heal? Per WoB, some healing systems can still handle the kind of spiritual damage that Hemalurgy can dish out, but not all of them. Thus far, Surgebinders and Hoid both of whom we already knew could heal Shardblade wounds, are the two cited examples of healing from Hemalurgy.

 

Question 2: What kind of attributes can you harvest from a Kandra and will they grow back? Kandra bindpoints are fluid, so knowing exactly where to spike them especially if the Kandra is resisting you could make this very problematic, but it seems feasible. Hypothetically if the Set had captured a few Kandra when they were revealed during the Bleeder incident, would they have been able to make them into spike factories? Now Allomantic or Feruchemical powers are the primary attributes of interest to the Set, but being able to harvest unlimited strength from a kandra could have very interesting applications (assuming that the harvesting is survivable and reversable which may or may not be the case).

[alder24]

40 minutes ago, Duxredux said:

Question 1: We think of Hemalurgy as a precision art where you have to setup fine-tuned scenarios steal or grant powers. To what extent does Ruin's Intent require you to be intending to steal or grant the powers to activate Hemalurgy or can you trigger a similar intent if all you want to do is use a big hunk of metal to bludgeon off chunks of their Spiritweb? Minigun loaded with Hemalurgically viable metals? In essence, is the Intent required specific to stealing the power or can the right intent simply be to ruin or otherwise damage their soul and not just their body?

I think it has to be more or less specific. That's because intent is one of three main components of Hemalurgy, the other two are a type of spike and a binding point used. All of those three components must match to successfully steal what you want.

But I think if you intend to use a piece of metal as a Hemalurgic spike, and you just want to steal something just to damage the soul, it would rip off a chunk of spirit web, but not really a usable one, just a random piece of a soul. You might need to have a specific thing in mind to steal, but wrong metal or placement of the spike would still steal something, even if that's not what you intended to steal. 

Some WoBs partially about this:

Spoiler

Questioner

My question was about Hemalurgy. There was a disagreement on the last Shardcast. When spiking a Mistborn to charge a Hemalurgic spike, does it matter how the Mistborn is killed or is what power is stolen based only on the metal?

Brandon Sanderson

So you want to place the spike in a specific place.

Questioner

In the donor. In the recipient, not the donor.

Brandon Sanderson

In the recipient. And you want to use the specific metal and so basically if you aren't precise about how you spike, you risk taking the wrong thing within the same family. Some of those, that's not as big a deal, but for some it is kind of a big deal. And so you want to be very precise, you'll get something, but if you're not placing the spike in the right place and going into the right place, then you risk it.

Questioner

You risk stealing the wrong thing.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah. Now if you're going off of somebody who's not a Mistborn, you can be a little more flexible, but you still have the danger that you're not going to end up stealing the power, you're going to steal something else. So, precision is advisable, how about that?

Questioner

Yeah. Because the question was kind of specifically about, like, we know that atium spikes can kill-- can steal pretty much any power.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. You want to be super precise with your atium spike.

Questioner

So, part of the question was like, exactly, if you just killed a Mistborn, you stab a Mistborn in the heart with an atium spike, and you're not placing it immediately--

Brandon Sanderson

What do you end up with? You are rolling the dice, let's say. Not as big a roll of the dice as you might think, but you still are. You might not get what you want.

Questioner

And then when you place the spike on the recipient, if you like tore that spike out again and put it in someone else, you're not going to be able to get more than one power out of it?

Brandon Sanderson

No. No, and if you place the spike in the wrong place, then you're going to end up with interference and things like this where the spike might just not work the way you want it to. Taking a spike and putting it in the wrong place in someone is not going to make them have a different power, in other words.

Idaho Falls signing (Dec. 29, 2018)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

Allomancy requires, you need to be either a Misting or a Mistborn to be able to do that. But Hemalurgy you just need to stab someone through the heart. So what would stop someone on Roshar from using Hemalurgy, because it's not Innate? Do you have to be in proximity to Ruin?

Brandon Sanderson

Intent is a big part of a lot of the magics, including Hemalurgy, meaning that you need to know what you're doing. Or somebody needs to-- There needs to be Intent involved in what's happening to you.

Questioner

So like with Spook when he got spiked, where was the Intent?

Brandon Sanderson

The person who was driving that spike was being influenced by Ruin, and the Intent was there.

Questioner

So unless you knew what you were trying to do with a Hemalurgic spike, you couldn't do Hemalurgy?

Brandon Sanderson

You could not steal attributes no.

Questioner 2

Is it possible to steal Surgebindings.

Brandon Sanderson

It is possible to steal Surgebinding.

Questioner

Is there going to be crossover, like is someone going to have Feruchemical powers and also Surgebinding?

Brandon Sanderson

That's a Read And Find Out.

Holiday signing (Dec. 12, 2015)

 

Spoiler

Sorana (paraphrased)

Would a spike charge if I threw it at someone with the intention to spike something out of him and hit the right bindpoint?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes.

Sorana (paraphrased)

So spike darts are a thing.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes, and spike guns are a thing as well.

Stuttgart signing (May 17, 2019)

 

47 minutes ago, Duxredux said:

Basically, does Hemalurgy have to be a spike, or can you have the right intent with a steel baseball bat and start hitting souls and not just heads?

You have to pierce the binding point, you can't do it with a round bat, you need something pointy to stab it through the body.

56 minutes ago, Duxredux said:

For example, if any of the Set had figured out the correct intent when fighting Wayne, would aluminum bullets have started tearing out chunks of his soul rather than just punching holes in him that would be slightly more problematic to heal? Per WoB, some healing systems can still handle the kind of spiritual damage that Hemalurgy can dish out, but not all of them. Thus far, Surgebinders and Hoid both of whom we already knew could heal Shardblade wounds, are the two cited examples of healing from Hemalurgy.

Feruchemy can heal damage done to the soul. With the right intent, those bullets might work, but only if they hit some binding point, which is really unlikely. Binding points are very tiny, and those bullets have to be really precise. That's my opinion at least.

Spoiler

Questioner

If a Shardblade was put through Wayne's eye, would he able to use his ability to [heal the wound]?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, he should be able to heal that.

Oathbringer Leeds signing (Dec. 1, 2017)

 

59 minutes ago, Duxredux said:

Question 2: What kind of attributes can you harvest from a Kandra and will they grow back?

I think you can steal a lot and they won't grow that back. You're stealing parts of their soul responsible for those attributes, and that's something Kandra can't heal. If you steal strength from them, they would be permanently weakened. 

But you don't want to give yourself that attribute - Kandra aren't human, they are different species and that would probably cause big mutations in your body. Chimeras were likely created by stealing attributes from dogs - just look at the amount of deformation present from a single spike. 

1 hour ago, Duxredux said:

Kandra bindpoints are fluid, so knowing exactly where to spike them especially if the Kandra is resisting you could make this very problematic, but it seems feasible.

Anything that gives you a glimpse into SR can help you with finding the right spot. Electrum Misting or A-Atium would be a big help with spiking a Kandra.

Spoiler

PhantoMonstrosity

Atium is the best metal to use for Hemalurgy. Does *burning* atium help you figure out where to put the spikes?

Brandon Sanderson

Anything that gets you a glimpse of the Spiritual Realm could help with placing spikes.

PhantoMonstrosity

Would flaring iron and steel also help?

Brandon Sanderson

No, not without additional help.

#NookTalks Twitter Q&A with Barnes & Noble (Feb. 16, 2016)

 

[Trusk'our]

8 hours ago, Duxredux said:

Okay, two hemalurgy thoughts. I'll let @Trusk'our tell me if anyone's already asked this, but I'm posting it here rather than in the Mistborn or Q&A channel in case it has larger implications.

Question 1: We think of Hemalurgy as a precision art where you have to setup fine-tuned scenarios steal or grant powers. To what extent does Ruin's Intent require you to be intending to steal or grant the powers to activate Hemalurgy or can you trigger a similar intent if all you want to do is use a big hunk of metal to bludgeon off chunks of their Spiritweb? Minigun loaded with Hemalurgically viable metals? In essence, is the Intent required specific to stealing the power or can the right intent simply be to ruin or otherwise damage their soul and not just their body? Basically, does Hemalurgy have to be a spike, or can you have the right intent with a steel baseball bat and start hitting souls and not just heads? 

You'd have to get the metal to enter the donor's body at the correct Bindpoint to take anything Hemalurgically, so I'd say it's possible to use a bludgeoning tool to get the job done, though it would be a lot more difficult- to get the Hemalurgy to work you might have to essentially blow a hole through them (so Hemalurgic cannon balls would work, though I'm not sure a metal baseball would).

We can see that Kaladin's Shardhammer (Syl in changed form) in OB doesn't cut the Spiritweb, it just smashes the target physically. I think Hemalurgy probably works in a similar manner.

@alder24 also raises a good point for the accuracy of Hemalurgy; you could probably rip off non-functional pieces to do someone extra harm, but I doubt you're going to be capturing usable powers unless you have Waxillium levels of accuracy.

8 hours ago, Duxredux said:

We know that Hemalurgy is a universally applicable art, so anyone can use it. So... once the secret that Hemalurgy can be used by anyone anywhere to damage souls will it become the universal poor man's Shardblade? For example, if any of the Set had figured out the correct intent when fighting Wayne, would aluminum bullets have started tearing out chunks of his soul rather than just punching holes in him that would be slightly more problematic to heal?

Yes, this could have worked, though getting the exact Bindpoint would have probably been tricky. I could see a bullet with the Intent to perform a Hemalurgic excision still being able to cause some harm to the Spiritweb even without the correct Bindpoint though, so it would still have been extra damaging.

It's also worth noting that if any of the aluminum bullets got lodged in his body his healing wouldn't have worked until they were removed anyway, which would be enough to seriously harm or kill him even without the use of Hemalurgic Intent:

Spoiler

Words of Radiance Philadelphia signing - Arcanum (coppermind.net)

Kurkistan

What would happen if you shot a thug with an aluminum bullet or stabbed him with an aluminum knife?

Brandon Sanderson

Ah, that's a good question. The wound would not be able to heal around the aluminum, but once the aluminum came out and was gone from the system, they would be okay.

Kurkistan

Wait, is that a Bloodmaker, not a Thug?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, you're talking about Thugs?

It would work similarly, but it really wouldn't have a huge effect on them.

Kurkistan

Alright, because Peter was implying that there was some weird aluminum interaction with Thugs.

Brandon Sanderson

What was he thinking of...?

There is some weird interaction but...

Kurkistan

In the wedding scene, Wax thinks they would have aluminum bullets to deal with Thugs, and I was like, "Oh, that's a typo." And Peter was like, "Oh no it's not..."

Brandon Sanderson

No, no. That would just be-- it's like I said: healing it until the bullet is gone, it's just the same as Bloodmakers.

8 hours ago, Duxredux said:

Per WoB, some healing systems can still handle the kind of spiritual damage that Hemalurgy can dish out, but not all of them. Thus far, Surgebinders and Hoid both of whom we already knew could heal Shardblade wounds, are the two cited examples of healing from Hemalurgy.

F-gold should be able to handle Hemalurgic damage, though it would be greatly draining and would likely require a large external source of Investiture to fuel it (i.e., Compounding, Unkeyed Goldminds, or Purified Dor):

Spoiler

Goodreads: Ask the Author Q&A - Arcanum (coppermind.net)

Kurkistan

Could Miles heal back his Allomancy if it was spiked out of him?

Brandon Sanderson

No, he could not. He would no longer be an Allomancer. Also, he'd probably be dead.

Kurkistan

Thanks!

I'd thought maybe he could just do some super-tapping from his existing Health in his goldminds (since he'd still have his Feruchemy)...

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, I see what you're asking. Using Feruchemy to heal the removed portion of soul. That's actually plausible, not so different from healing other kinds of soul-wounds. If he survived, then yes, this actually might work. (That's why I get for reading the questions so quickly.)

Spoiler

General Reddit 2020 - Arcanum (coppermind.net)

HazelCharm47

Let's say we have a hypothetical situation with Miles Hundredlives. In this scenario, he is wearing a gold metalmind filled to the brim with stored healing power. He is then spiked with a cadmium spike and loses his gold allomancy.

Now, if I recall from various WoBs, he would be able to heal using the gold metalmind and regain his gold allomancy. I could be misremembering and he cannot heal it, but I believe he would be able to since it is part of his Identity.

However, one question I have never seen the answer to is this: what happens to the ability in the spike? Is the allomantic ability still contained in the spike, leading to a duplicate? Or is the spike's ability lost? Or maybe I have this whole thing wrong and Miles could never have regained the ability in the first place.

If the ability duplicates (which I doubt), that could lead to some crazy things. Also, this applies to any Twinborn with gold Feruchemy, I just thought Miles was a good example I guess

Brandon Sanderson

I'd like to see the exact WoB's here to make sure I'm being consistent, as I don't know that I confirmed you could regain lost powers--only that you could heal from hemalurgic soul damage. Most likely, what you'd end up with is a person who has been healed and can remove the spike from their body without damage, and without needing it to hold their soul together--but who has lost the ability in the spike.

Regardless, though, what you want here (the mass production of spikes charged and even blanked) is possible with the right levels of investiture. It's an energy, like things in our world. The difficulty is finding out how to 1) get enough investiture and 2) key it to the right people and/or magic.

Hope that's a little more clear.

That said, a lot of times people just ask me if something is possible--and a lot of things are possible, but just very difficult. And with the right boost of investiture, in the right circumstances, it WOULD be possible to regrow lost (to spikes) powers. It's just highly unlikely.

I'm not sure if the questions people are asking me are ones I've qualified, or not, in these instances. Also, this is all something I'm playing with still behind the scenes as we enter the modern age of Mistborn.

HazelCharm47

As requested, here are the WoBs I believe are related. They might be obsolete, however. And I assume things will get changed a lot before Era 4, but hey, it's fun to ask anyways

WoB #1:

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/331/#e9434

This one states that as long as Miles still has his Identity, he would be able to use his Feruchemical metalminds after being spiked and would be able to heal.

WoB #2:

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/102/#e983

This one says that Miles would be able to heal his soul using Feruchemical healing and regain his gold Allomancy (assuming he survives the spiking). I think this is the most essential one!

WoB #3:

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/76/#e6335

This one is only somewhat related - implies that the Feruchemical and Allomantic powers are spiritually part of him.

WoB #4:

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/7/#e6435

Also tangentially related - damage to the soul from Hemalurgy can be healed (Although this might just be a Hoid thing). I guess the question could be expanded to include non-Feruchemical healing as a way to repair the soul after being spiked.

Brandon Sanderson

Well, I don't think any of those are specifically inaccurate. I just didn't quite understand what people were trying to get out of me. A lot of times, I don't know quite what people are trying to get out of me. I can see now they're trying to figure out.

I see now, and I appreciate you putting this all together for me so I can see what the fans are trying to figure out. So the answer is a cautious yes. The problem here is that he'd need to compound a TON of healing first--but yes, it would work. You could theoretically turn someone like Miles into an invested spike factory.

If he didn't have enough healing stored, though, he'd end up with a healed soul but a gap (like a scar on his soul) where his spiked-out abilities were. That could theoretically be healed with application of more investiture, depending on things like how he views himself, and if you could get the right type of investiture.

8 hours ago, Duxredux said:

Question 2: What kind of attributes can you harvest from a Kandra and will they grow back? Kandra bindpoints are fluid, so knowing exactly where to spike them especially if the Kandra is resisting you could make this very problematic, but it seems feasible. Hypothetically if the Set had captured a few Kandra when they were revealed during the Bleeder incident, would they have been able to make them into spike factories? Now Allomantic or Feruchemical powers are the primary attributes of interest to the Set, but being able to harvest unlimited strength from a kandra could have very interesting applications (assuming that the harvesting is survivable and reversable which may or may not be the case).

This is a very interesting question, and one that we have multiple WoBs on. I'll start with the oldest to the newest:

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/181/#e3795

NeedsAdjustment

If a kandra's limb was cut by a Shardblade, would it be able to heal/regrow?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/324/#e9262

greaterbookwyrm

What happens when you cut a kandra with a Shardblade?

Brandon Sanderson

So a kandra is going to react basically the same way, in that the Shardblade's going to be hitting at the soul and severing it and things like that. They are not immune to Shardblades. But because they have mutable shapes, there will be a little bit of weirdness involved in that. You'll get to see that happen eventually.

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/404/#e13528

Questioner (paraphrased)

Would a Shardblade hurt a Kandra?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

A Shardblade would not kill a Kandra outright, but it would do significant damage.

At first it sounded like Brandon wanted Kandra to be able to heal from Shardblade wounds just as they could physical wounds, but later this was changed; it seems that Kandra can heal from most physical injuries with hardly a care, but spiritual injuries (such as from Hemalurgy) would not be possible unless they also had F-gold or some other form of Invested healing.

This probably means that you can't just spike something like strength out of them and let them grow it back no problem- as @alder24 said, there is going to be some permanent damage done. They could probably rearrange things with their remaining Spiritweb and flexible body to allow for them to function, but it would be ignoring the injury, not healing it (kind of like how Melaan was able to tie her shattered bones back together in BoM with sinew- though functional it wasn't perfect and was ultimately weaker than it had been before).

Some very interesting questions @Duxredux, very good post 

Edited October 29 by Trusk'our