A Simple Pilgrim he/him Posted October 23, 2023 Posted October 23, 2023 There is a passage in The Lost Metal where Marasi discovers some of the people who had gone missing recently in Bilming. We learn that the Set has learned how to spike someone who is not an allomancer but who had allomantic potential, in order to steal that potential. This process creates a very weak spike that can't create a misting, but also doesn't kill the person whose ability was stolen. The Set then was able to repeat this, gathering 20-30 very weak spikes that could then be put on one person, creating a Misting from normal people. There's multiple ways this could have been done, we don't know the details. The most obvious method of just directly using all the weak spikes has some severe problems- that many spikes takes a severe toll on a person, there's probably a lack of bind points for this, and it likely required trellium spikes to stabilize. Perhaps instead they melted down all the spikes and instead made a single one from the combined metal. The biggest problem of all though is that the effect was apparently only temporary. Moonlight is still excited by this is at implies that a sufficient amount of investiture spiked, regardless of how it was obtained, can grant the ability. She says that maybe the process could be replicated with pure investiture like Dor without spiking anyone. Personally, I doubt that will be possible, as it goes against the whole 'intent' and logic of Hemalurgy, which is stealing some attribute. A heavily invested spike might do something, but it seems unlikely that it can be used to grant specific metallic arts. Now here is the what-if: Imagine spiking someone who had 5% of the potential needed to become a misting for example, and then using the pure investiture, somehow pump that into the spike in order to increase its power. The original spiking granting the 'intent' for the magic and then the pure investiture making up the lack of power. Then spike the person who the potential was originally taken from with their own powered up spike. Now that person has basically gained the ability their potential couldn't reach before, while minimizing soul damage by using their own spike. Now we don't know if it is possible to 'power-up' a Hemalurgic spike this way, but it seems plausible to me. Far more plausible than creating purely artificial spikes at least. If the Set was using the 'combine into one spike' method, then perhaps there is a way of forging the spike with more investiture put into it. Perhaps the spike could be stamped to think that it came from a full misting, thus being able to grant someone the power without stamping them directly and changing who they are. What are the thoughts about this method? Do you think it is possible? Do you think it is useful, or that if you had access to spikes and pure investiture there would be easier methods to gain power? 3
Trusk'our he/him Posted October 23, 2023 Posted October 23, 2023 2 hours ago, A Simple Pilgrim said: The Set then was able to repeat this, gathering 20-30 very weak spikes that could then be put on one person, creating a Misting from normal people. There's multiple ways this could have been done, we don't know the details. The most obvious method of just directly using all the weak spikes has some severe problems- that many spikes takes a severe toll on a person, there's probably a lack of bind points for this, and it likely required trellium spikes to stabilize. Perhaps instead they melted down all the spikes and instead made a single one from the combined metal. The biggest problem of all though is that the effect was apparently only temporary. Interesting. So, you propose that you take multiple of these spikes made from non-Metalborn and implant them into a person instead of just combining the Investiture of those people into one spike? That might actually work with enough spikes, as their wouldn't be any Identity contamination preventing the Investiture from working together. Programming of Investiture (i.e., a fabricated form of Snapping) might still be necessary to make the resulting power stable. I really like this idea, as it would be a "cheap" way to make Metalborn, but would severely limit the power you could get out of it, as multiple spikes would be necessary for one functioning power (which is cool for world building or for bad guys). 2 hours ago, A Simple Pilgrim said: Moonlight is still excited by this is at implies that a sufficient amount of investiture spiked, regardless of how it was obtained, can grant the ability. She says that maybe the process could be replicated with pure investiture like Dor without spiking anyone. Personally, I doubt that will be possible, as it goes against the whole 'intent' and logic of Hemalurgy, which is stealing some attribute. A heavily invested spike might do something, but it seems unlikely that it can be used to grant specific metallic arts. I don't think that the idea of using raw Investiture is to fuel Hemalurgy is that absurd; it's possible to manufacture Spiritwebs after all, which could be spiked (or directly integrated into a spike at the time of the Spiritweb's creation). Spoiler Dragonsteel Mini-Con 2021 - Arcanum (coppermind.net) Questioner A Spiritweb is composed of a bunch of chunks that are added based on certain circumstances. Could you manufacture Spiritweb patterns out of raw Investiture in such a way that, instead of cutting something from someone and grafting it to someone else, actually manufacture the chunk desired from Investiture and put it on the person? Brandon Sanderson Yes. They don't know how, but you could. Synthetic meat, synthetic souls, possible. Plus, once you get the Investiture to work, it doesn't really care how you got it, it just does what you want it to. Spoiler https://wob.coppermind.net/events/36/#e1560 Questioner If you Stamp yourself, to have another, overwritten spiritweb, and you get Spiked-- *laughter* What would happen? Brandon Sanderson We actually worked this out. *laughter* Questioner Well, you'd die, or very close to it, but would it revert when the Stamp reverts? Brandon Sanderson So what’s probably going to happen here is that you’re going to rip off the Investiture you’ve put on your soul, and your own soul will have less damage. Now, the spike is only gonna get the-- the spike, you're like "What will it do?" It will do what you've been overwritten with, but again remember, becoming an Allomancer takes so much energy, and things like-- But it is theoretically possible in the cosmere to rewrite yourself "You're an allomancer", someone spikes you to get this. The Investiture doesn't care that it was fake on you, you have managed to get that Investiture to work. Uhh, this is really tough. And really, like, you need Connection, and you need, like, the right kind of Investiture, but then it rips off and yes you have made a spike that makes you an Allomancer, even though the person was a Forger. So yes, okay? But this is the kind of stuff that is like the thought experiments for physicists in the cosmere as opposed to, y'know-- 2 hours ago, A Simple Pilgrim said: Now here is the what-if: Imagine spiking someone who had 5% of the potential needed to become a misting for example, and then using the pure investiture, somehow pump that into the spike in order to increase its power. The original spiking granting the 'intent' for the magic and then the pure investiture making up the lack of power. Then spike the person who the potential was originally taken from with their own powered up spike. Now that person has basically gained the ability their potential couldn't reach before, while minimizing soul damage by using their own spike. Ah, yes, I've had a similar idea pop into my head at one point; the original power provides the "program" for extra Investiture from the non Metalborn power. The only thing you'd probably have to worry about is Identity contamination, so Blanking the Donor's Identity while spiking them would be necessary. I hadn't thought of giving the Invested power back to the donor though, but I could see that workin; the spike could be reused and even have its charge increased by the new donor/bearer of the spike. I do think that there would be some extra damage done to the Spiritweb from the procedure though, even if the Investiture was replaced and even increased, which may present a problem, though it wouldn't be nearly as bad as just having a piece of your Spiritweb ripped off and having nothing in return. I also want to mention, I think that most people on Scadrial have more than 5% of the Investiture needed to make a functional power- the 5% was probably referring to the maximum Investiture capacity of the spike itself. Spoiler https://wob.coppermind.net/events/270/#e7797 Brandon Sanderson The Sliding Scale of Allomantic Potential Noblemen, despite what Spook says in this chapter, are not immune to the mistsickness. The rumor Spook is referencing does have merit, however. You see, since the mists are Snapping people and awakening the Allomantic potential within them, it will affect far fewer noblemen than skaa. Why? Because a lot of the noblemen have already Snapped. They were beaten as children to bring out the powers. However, that won't stop all of them from being affected by the mistsickness, because the mistsickness is also awakening Allomantic potential that would otherwise be too subtle to be brought out. Pretend there's a sliding scale of Allomantic potential. 100% means you're an Allomancer—in this series, only two people have hit 100%—Vin and Elend. Buried within a lot of people, however, is enough of a touch of Preservation's power to hit, say, 50% on the relative scale of Allomantic power. These people, when beaten and made to pass through something traumatic, awaken to their Allomantic abilities. There are a lot of people out there, however, with something more like 20% to 30%. These are the people the mists are Snapping—since the mists are, themselves, partially the power of Preservation, they can touch people and increase their Allomantic potential slightly and then bring it to the forefront. 2 hours ago, A Simple Pilgrim said: Now we don't know if it is possible to 'power-up' a Hemalurgic spike this way, but it seems plausible to me. Far more plausible than creating purely artificial spikes at least. If the Set was using the 'combine into one spike' method, then perhaps there is a way of forging the spike with more investiture put into it. Perhaps the spike could be stamped to think that it came from a full misting, thus being able to grant someone the power without stamping them directly and changing who they are. Forging the spike to act as if from a true Allomancer or Feruchemist is possible, but it would likely require a boost of power. Spoiler https://wob.coppermind.net/events/64/#e884 the_archduke (paraphrased) If the Lord Ruler captured Shai and gave her 100 days to craft a soulstamp that could turn an iron Hemalurgic spike into a steel Hemalurgic spike, could she do it? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) Yes, but she would need a boost of power to do it. Affecting an Invested object is hard. the_archduke [Alternate wording from stormfather's report] (paraphrased) Can Shai change Hemalurgic spikes? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) Yes, but it costs a lot of power and she wouldn't be able to do it alone. 2 hours ago, A Simple Pilgrim said: What are the thoughts about this method? Do you think it is possible? Do you think it is useful, or that if you had access to spikes and pure investiture there would be easier methods to gain power? Yup, I think that these methods are possible, and quite interesting too. Good post, enjoyable content. Other methods to produce Hemalurgic spikes? I've got a few ideas; Use F-gold via Hemalurgy to have a Metalborn store willingly give their natural power to a spike, then have them heal it back (Compounding or another external source of Investiture would be necessary for mass production. Repeated spiking may cause permanent harm, so maybe only spike a single Metalborn a few times). The Emperor's soul spoilers: Spoiler Forge someone with noble lineage into an Allomancer (who already had some probability of being an Allomancer, so Forging them would be easier), spike them, repeat process. Warbreaker spoilers: Spoiler Awaken a previously made Hemalurgic spike with Breaths with the Command to replicate the Invested power inside, then split the spike (while in a bath of blood to prevent decay) into many, many smaller ones for others to use. 3
alder24 Posted October 23, 2023 Posted October 23, 2023 13 hours ago, A Simple Pilgrim said: There is a passage in The Lost Metal where Marasi discovers some of the people who had gone missing recently in Bilming. We learn that the Set has learned how to spike someone who is not an allomancer but who had allomantic potential, in order to steal that potential. This process creates a very weak spike that can't create a misting, but also doesn't kill the person whose ability was stolen. The Set then was able to repeat this, gathering 20-30 very weak spikes that could then be put on one person, creating a Misting from normal people. Yes, with a correction. The Set used a single spike to steal raw, innate Investiture (Preservation's fragment) from 20-30 people, creating a fully charged spike, that was able to grant Metalborn powers only for a short period of time. They couldn't make this spike work. It was most likely a nicrosil spike, as they were stealing raw investiture and that's what nicrosil is doing. TLM ch 47: Quote “Roughly five percent Invested,” she reported to Entrone. “And as you can see, the subject is still alive. We’ve essentially excised a piece of the soul and stored it in the metal.” [...] “Ah, my lord,” the woman said. “This woman isn’t Metalborn. We’ve Invested a spike—a tiny bit, granted—using an ordinary person. All people are Invested by Ruin and Preservation as part of our very makeup—and we have a little extra Preservation, blessed by the Shards upon our creation. We’re pulling some of that out. “The percentage you get depends on the person. We think it might have to do with how likely they were, genetically, to be Metalborn. But they don’t need that extra if the powers didn’t manifest in them. It’s vestigial. We simply slice it off and use it in a spike. Fully Investing one takes between twenty and thirty people.” [...] “Can you make me Allomancers?” he demanded. “Now. Today. To show Autonomy.” “No,” Labcoat admitted. “We think we need to code this in some way to give a specific Metallic Art blessing. We’re working on that. We’ve had some few gain a power for a short time using one of these spikes, but it gives out soon after.” [...] “You don’t understand,” Moonlight said. “If they’re even close to forging Metalborn out of the raw power of souls—if they’ve had tests that resulted in an Allomancer, no matter how fleeting … Marasi, that path could lead to creating spikes using pure Investiture instead of souls.” She tapped her rucksack, indicating the glowing jars inside. Identity contamination is definitely a problem - a fully charged spike contains investiture keyed to 20-30 different people. Another is coding, as mentioned in the quote - they need to find a way to code this investiture to grant a specific power - they didn't figure this out yet. Those two problems prevent this spike from working. But remember, it's a single spike charged by 20-30 people. 13 hours ago, A Simple Pilgrim said: there's probably a lack of bind points for this That's a good point. If this is truly a nicrosil spike, it can't be placed in typical binding points that are for granting powers. There would be some interference preventing this spike from working because of the wrong binding point in which it was placed. This can possibly be resolved by finding a suitable binding point (maybe some kind of general point that allows for placement of all types of spike) - there are 200-300 known binding points, I'm sure you can find at least one that would work. Speaking Commands might help as well. 13 hours ago, A Simple Pilgrim said: Moonlight is still excited by this is at implies that a sufficient amount of investiture spiked, regardless of how it was obtained, can grant the ability. She says that maybe the process could be replicated with pure investiture like Dor without spiking anyone. Personally, I doubt that will be possible, as it goes against the whole 'intent' and logic of Hemalurgy, which is stealing some attribute. Feruchemy is about storing an attribute and then tapping it later, but you can replace the storing with external investiture, like during the compounding process. Hemalurgy is similar, there are two processes - one is for stealing, the other is for grafting. I think it's possible to replace the stealing part with an external source of investiture (raw investiture), but the grafting would still be the same, causing damage to your spirit web and everything. It’s a hack, no different than compounding. 13 hours ago, A Simple Pilgrim said: A heavily invested spike might do something, but it seems unlikely that it can be used to grant specific metallic arts. But it already worked, even if just for a short time. 13 hours ago, A Simple Pilgrim said: Now here is the what-if: Imagine spiking someone who had 5% of the potential needed to become a misting for example, and then using the pure investiture, somehow pump that into the spike in order to increase its power. The original spiking granting the 'intent' for the magic and then the pure investiture making up the lack of power. Then spike the person who the potential was originally taken from with their own powered up spike. Now that person has basically gained the ability their potential couldn't reach before, while minimizing soul damage by using their own spike. I think it's possible, I've seen such a theory before. But is the power already coded in this 5% or not? If not you still need to code the investiture to grant you a specific power. You definitely solved the identity contamination problem. The theory I've seen was about spiking a Misting and dividing the spike into hundreds of small pieces, each containing only a tiny fraction of the stolen soul. Then those pieces are melted into larger spikes, which are filled with raw investiture - the raw investiture would amplify/merge with the real, tiny piece of the soul,which acts like a definition for raw investiture, granting you a strong version of the power you've stolen and divided - or something like that (Oh that was yours @Trusk'our?) 13 hours ago, A Simple Pilgrim said: Far more plausible than creating purely artificial spikes at least. Everytime you burn a metal, tap a metalmind etc, you're making pulses detectable by A-bronze. What you need to do with raw investiture is to code it, change its intent, to this specific pulse, tied to one of the powers. That's kind of it, or something similar to it. RoW spoilers: Spoiler We know how important waves and sounds are for investiture, doing this with raw investiture seems to be possible.
Trusk'our he/him Posted October 23, 2023 Posted October 23, 2023 (edited) 24 minutes ago, alder24 said: Yes, with a correction. The Set used a single spike to steal raw, innate Investiture (Preservation's fragment) from 20-30 people, creating a fully charged spike, that was able to grant Metalborn powers only for a short period of time. They couldn't make this spike work. It was most likely a nicrosil spike, as they were stealing raw investiture and that's what nicrosil is doing. TLM ch 47: You know, if it is a nicrosil spike they're using, it means that such spikes can provide access to Allomantic/Feruchemical powers, if only briefly. If this is true it could point towards the ability that you can take some functioning aspects of other Spiritwebs via nicrosil and not just the raw Investiture itself, such as a functional Resonance. 24 minutes ago, alder24 said: I think it's possible, I've seen such a theory before. But is the power already coded in this 5% or not? If not you still need to code the investiture to grant you a specific power. You definitely solved the identity contamination problem. The theory I've seen was about spiking a Misting and dividing the spike into hundreds of small pieces, each containing only a tiny fraction of the stolen soul. Then those pieces are melted into larger spikes, which are filled with raw investiture - the raw investiture would amplify/merge with the real, tiny piece of the soul,which acts like a definition for raw investiture, granting you a strong version of the power you've stolen and divided - or something like that This makes me wonder if you could take one of the many Pathian earrings, melt it into a new, larger spike, and then charge it with more non-Metalborn people to create a functional power. Perhaps even a power spike that works as the ones in era 1, as the programmed Investiture probably works under those rules. . . 24 minutes ago, alder24 said: (Oh that was yours @Trusk'our?) I believe so, yes. It's hard to keep track of sometimes. I really need to go back through the Forums and check out all my old ideas sometime- maybe they'll jog some new ones up. 24 minutes ago, alder24 said: Everytime you burn a metal, tap a metalmind etc, you're making pulses detectable by A-bronze. What you need to do with raw investiture is to code it, change its intent, to this specific pulse, tied to one of the powers. That's kind of it, or something similar to it. RoW spoilers: Reveal hidden contents We know how important waves and sounds are for investiture, doing this with raw investiture seems to be possible. I remember posting that one too Edited October 23, 2023 by Trusk'our
alder24 Posted October 23, 2023 Posted October 23, 2023 5 minutes ago, Trusk'our said: This makes me wonder if you could take one of the many Pathian earrings, melt it into a new, larger spike, and then charge it with more non-Metalborn people to create a functional power. Perhaps even a power spike that works as the ones in era 1, as the programmed Investiture probably works under those rules. . . Possible, you don't even have to melt it, Vin's earring was small and still gave her full power of A-bronze. Of course you need to take care of identity and programming if needed. 7 minutes ago, Trusk'our said: I remember posting that one too This one too? Every idea about Hemalurgy was already posted by you, and somehow you still have more
Trusk'our he/him Posted October 23, 2023 Posted October 23, 2023 8 hours ago, alder24 said: Possible, you don't even have to melt it, Vin's earring was small and still gave her full power of A-bronze. Of course you need to take care of identity and programming if needed. True, but a bigger spike could mean you could fit more extra power inside if you wanted to. But smaller spikes could be used for more discretion or for swapping them out without dying, so it's an either-or situation. 8 hours ago, alder24 said: This one too? Every idea about Hemalurgy was already posted by you, and somehow you still have more Naw, only about 3/4's of them are mine I've actually got a few more to post (most of which are Hemalurgy related. Big surprise there), I've mostly just been trying to time them in such a way that people actually view it- I realized a while back when I posted 5-6 at a time that most people don't comment on them when presented like that. Just too overwhelming, I suppose. You've got to get a constant but manageable stream of posts if you want the most comments (that and posting on other Forums simlutaneously, that is).
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