Trusk'our he/him Posted October 7, 2023 Posted October 7, 2023 In RoW, Navani thinks to herself about trying to use Raysium to reconjoin two split Flamespren halves to please the Sibling, as Flamespren will apparently grow into two separate Spren if released and given Stormlight, if memory recalls (sorry, I don't have the book on me). So what if this process was made mass-scale? Hemalurgy as it stands now requires a viable Spiritweb to fuel it, and Spren can be spiked, so could you farm lesser Spren to get raw Investiture for something like nicrosil spikes without needing to hurt any humans?
alder24 Posted October 7, 2023 Posted October 7, 2023 6 hours ago, Trusk'our said: In RoW, Navani thinks to herself about trying to use Raysium to reconjoin two split Flamespren halves to please the Sibling, as Flamespren will apparently grow into two separate Spren if released and given Stormlight, if memory recalls (sorry, I don't have the book on me). So what if this process was made mass-scale? Hemalurgy as it stands now requires a viable Spiritweb to fuel it, and Spren can be spiked, so could you farm lesser Spren to get raw Investiture for something like nicrosil spikes without needing to hurt any humans? If you want to make spikes without hurting anyone just use programmable Pure Dor like Moonlight suggested. That's the future of Hemalurgy. I think splitting spren into two gemstones and spiking them are two different things - spren split in fabrials are still connected, but a spike steals something from them, if spren wouldn't end up like Notum, they would end up deadeye if you take something more important than raw investiture.
Trusk'our he/him Posted October 7, 2023 Author Posted October 7, 2023 4 hours ago, alder24 said: If you want to make spikes without hurting anyone just use programmable Pure Dor like Moonlight suggested. That's the future of Hemalurgy. True, but that process hasn't been discovered yet and may be very difficult to actually put into practice. I suspect it will involve the construction of artificial Spiritwebs with raw Investiture that can then be spiked, as that is what Hemalurgy is designed to actually interact with. Quote Dragonsteel Mini-Con 2021 - Arcanum (coppermind.net) Questioner A Spiritweb is composed of a bunch of chunks that are added based on certain circumstances. Could you manufacture Spiritweb patterns out of raw Investiture in such a way that, instead of cutting something from someone and grafting it to someone else, actually manufacture the chunk desired from Investiture and put it on the person? Brandon Sanderson Yes. They don't know how, but you could. Synthetic meat, synthetic souls, possible. 4 hours ago, alder24 said: I think splitting spren into two gemstones and spiking them are two different things - spren split in fabrials are still connected, but a spike steals something from them, if spren wouldn't end up like Notum, they would end up deadeye if you take something more important than raw investiture. I don't mean that you separate the two halves and then spike each half- those would still count as a single being, as you say. What I mean is that you capture the spren, split the Gemstone and Spren inside it, then let each half grow into a new Spren. Then spike each new Spren. And yes, this process could very likely create Deadeyes in the process. But it wouldn't be humans or sapient Spren suffering at the very least.
alder24 Posted October 7, 2023 Posted October 7, 2023 11 minutes ago, Trusk'our said: True, but that process hasn't been discovered yet and may be very difficult to actually put into practice. I suspect it will involve the construction of artificial Spiritwebs with raw Investiture that can then be spiked, as that is what Hemalurgy is designed to actually interact with. That's a very interesting WoB. But you might just be able to spike a jar of Dor, why not, it exists in all 3 Realms, so it might act like a spirit web for spikes. Then you "program" it. 2 minutes ago, Trusk'our said: I don't mean that you separate the two halves and then spike each half- those would still count as a single being, as you say. What I mean is that you capture the spren, split the Gemstone and Spren inside it, then let each half grow into a new Spren. Then spike each new Spren. I didn't mean that too, I was just telling the probable difference between spiking a spren and splitting a spren into two gemstones, because I didn't know what outcome you're expecting - alive or dead spren at the end. I don't remember this regrowing spren part - I remember Navani telling that breaking the gemstone let half of the spren escape, but nothing about regrowing - how would she know that? But why do you need to go through those steps? It makes no sense to catch a spren, split it, give it investiture and spike investiture out of it - just catch it and spike it, Rosharan Artifabrians have no problem catching uncountable amounts of Flamespren for creation of very cheap spanreeds and other fabrials. Just make a fire and start catching spren. 4 minutes ago, Trusk'our said: But it wouldn't be humans or sapient Spren suffering at the very least. And sentient spren suffering is better? The Sibling disagrees very much with you. Moreover what would be the result of grafting a piece of Rainspren into your soul? It may end up just like what we think is going on with Chimeras. Spren are like animals and I think there would be some very unwanted consequences of mixing "animal" spirit web with human.
Trusk'our he/him Posted October 7, 2023 Author Posted October 7, 2023 1 minute ago, alder24 said: That's a very interesting WoB. But you might just be able to spike a jar of Dor, why not, it exists in all 3 Realms, so it might act like a spirit web for spikes. Then you "program" it. Maybe, but I'm skeptical that could be done- it would be like trying to spike Stormlight that's floating through the air. No viable Spiritweb. Plus, there's the fact that (as it stands currently) plants cannot interact with Hemalurgy, which suggests to me that there must be a certain level of complexity must exist within a Spiritweb to make it a viable target for Hemalurgy, similar to how there must be a certain level of complexity in a sentient organism to be affected by Emotional Allomancy. Quote https://wob.coppermind.net/events/171/#e8173 Questioner Can plants have Hemalurgic properties? Brandon Sanderson ...As I have it in the notes right now, no. I could change that, but for right now, no. There's just not a way to get it to work, right now. 6 minutes ago, alder24 said: I didn't mean that too, I was just telling the probable difference between spiking a spren and splitting a spren into two gemstones, because I didn't know what outcome you're expecting - alive or dead spren at the end. I apologize, I assumed you meant that you were thinking that I was saying that you spike the two halves of Spren that were trapped in Gemstones. 7 minutes ago, alder24 said: But why do you need to go through those steps? It makes no sense to catch a spren, split it, give it investiture and spike investiture out of it - just catch it and spike it, Rosharan Artifabrians have no problem catching uncountable amounts of Flamespren for creation of very cheap spanreeds and other fabrials. Just make a fire and start catching spren. True, but if you could copy the Spren you could get a virtually unending source of fuel for raw Hemalurgic Investiture. Though, you're probably right- capturing wild Spren isn't that hard, and they're quite pleantiful. One problem that might arise is if you spike a LOT of lesser Spren and they turn into Deadeyes permanently that they might take up "space" that may eventually prevent new Spren from forming naturally. Maybe you could solve this by using silver to destroy any Deadeye Spren to clear them out. . . yeah, that does sound pretty heartless, come to think of it. 11 minutes ago, alder24 said: I don't remember this regrowing spren part - I remember Navani telling that breaking the gemstone let half of the spren escape, but nothing about regrowing - how would she know that? I believe that it was in RoW after Raboniel had betrayed Navani and used Raysium to kill her own daughter that Navani commented on trying to reunify two Flamespren halves as a way to appease the Sibling and make them more willing to talk. If memory serves right, Navani commented on the fact that the Flamespren don't normally rejoin when released, but that they will grow into two separate Flamespren. I don't have the book right now to show the exact quote though, so I suppose my memory could be flawed. I'm sorry. 14 minutes ago, alder24 said: And sentient spren suffering is better? The Sibling disagrees very much with you. Moreover what would be the result of grafting a piece of Rainspren into your soul? It may end up just like what we think is going on with Chimeras. Spren are like animals and I think there would be some very unwanted consequences of mixing "animal" spirit web with human. This is a very valid point. The ethics of Spiking Spren would very much matter how you view this sort of thing and could lead to quite a bit of pain for the Lesser Spren. Personally, I think that it would be about as bad as spiking animals, which would also not be ideal but would be better than spiking humans if both options were available. And yes, it's possible that grafting pieces of Spren Spiritweb to a human's would have some weird ramifications, but I mostly was thinking of spiking Spren with nicrosil spikes for the general Investiture held in their Spiritweb- Spren seem to be far more Invested than humans in general, as they are made up entirely of Investiture.
alder24 Posted October 7, 2023 Posted October 7, 2023 6 minutes ago, Trusk'our said: I believe that it was in RoW after Raboniel had betrayed Navani and used Raysium to kill her own daughter that Navani commented on trying to reunify two Flamespren halves as a way to appease the Sibling and make them more willing to talk. If memory serves right, Navani commented on the fact that the Flamespren don't normally rejoin when released, but that they will grow into two separate Flamespren. I've found it, I missed that part earlier when searching. RoW ch 84: Quote “I’m trying to rejoin a split spren,” Navani explained. “Past experience shows that breaking a gemstone in half lets the flamespren go—but in that case, the two halves grow into separate flamespren. I’m trying to see if I can merge them back together.” It doesn't say they need Stormlight, so it's likely that the new spren is half as invested as it was before being split. 1
Trusk'our he/him Posted October 7, 2023 Author Posted October 7, 2023 Just now, alder24 said: I've found it, I missed that part earlier when searching. RoW ch 84: Thank you Just now, alder24 said: It doesn't say they need Stormlight, so it's likely that the new spren is half as invested as it was before being split. Posible. Well, if they don't increase their Investedness over time then I guess it would be better to just go capture more wild one's and spike them.
alder24 Posted October 7, 2023 Posted October 7, 2023 Just now, Trusk'our said: Posible. Well, if they don't increase their Investedness over time then I guess it would be better to just go capture more wild one's and spike them. They probably will get invested more with every Highstorm passing, just like we see True Spren getting something out of it in CR. If that's true, then if you want to make sure you're not hurting Roshar too much, then splitting a spren, letting them grow and spiking one of them, while releasing the other, would be the "best" way to ensure no change in spren population. 1
Trusk'our he/him Posted October 7, 2023 Author Posted October 7, 2023 11 minutes ago, alder24 said: They probably will get invested more with every Highstorm passing, just like we see True Spren getting something out of it in CR. If that's true, then if you want to make sure you're not hurting Roshar too much, then splitting a spren, letting them grow and spiking one of them, while releasing the other, would be the "best" way to ensure no change in spren population. Good point- BAM's capture hurt all of Roshar somehow, so spiking enough Spren Connected to Roshar could have negative consequences if not handled correctly. If the Spren are more Invested after a Highstorm, perhaps spiking right after said storm would be most efficient?
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