Ravenclawjedi42 Posted October 6, 2023 Posted October 6, 2023 So, in Mistborn era 2 there are four major religions: The Path, Survivorism, Sliverism, and—not sure if this is a spoiler or not— Spoiler Trellism I was wondering if we knew any more about Sliverism than what’s on the Coppermind article, and why Brandon chose to have Joshin and M’ichelle Yomen (Josh and M’ichelle Walker) Sliverists. And any theories you have about it.
alder24 Posted October 6, 2023 Posted October 6, 2023 (edited) 8 hours ago, Ravenclawjedi42 said: So, in Mistborn era 2 there are four major religions: The Path, Survivorism, Sliverism, and—not sure if this is a spoiler or not— Hide contents Trellism I was wondering if we knew any more about Sliverism than what’s on the Coppermind article, and why Brandon chose to have Joshin and M’ichelle Yomen (Josh and M’ichelle Walker) Sliverists. And any theories you have about it. Trell isn't a spoiler. Also Malwish have their own religions Unfortunately we know nothing much about Sliverism than what's on the Coppermind. And why is Sliverism a Yomens' religion? Well, they are descendants of Obligator Yomen from HoA, he would teach his kids about TLR and Ironeyes. Edited October 6, 2023 by alder24 1
Duxredux he/him Posted October 28, 2023 Posted October 28, 2023 I have some general guesses and questions related to this, but nothing concrete. Maybe the Sliver that Sliverism is referring to is to is Marsh himself and not actually TLR. We learn in TLM that periodically Harmony Invests Marsh and expands his capacity to operate as the mythological figure of Death. With direct delegation of power from a dual Shard, has Marsh's soul expanded to become a Sliver at this point? Does this boost of power have any similar effects to the Well of Ascension as either an attuning power or the effect on the soul? Why did Saze do this, was he Investing Marsh in this manner meant to provide greater stability to Marsh's frayed conglomerate soul? Was he just pulling in Marsh for some subcontracted work and that's it? If Marsh were to die, is his soul sufficiently infused by this process for Marsh to persist indefinitely as a Cognitive Shadow and perhaps make a similar return to the physical realm using the same mechanism that Kelsier has? Greater Cosmere spoilers: Spoiler How much of this is related to references to Ironeyes as Death cropping up on worlds far removed from Scadrial? I think that clearly Brandon has something in mind for Marsh other than him quietly passing away between eras and that there are quite a few hints as to what that could be, but I don't know if we have enough pieces to really put anything together yet. 3
Treamayne Posted October 28, 2023 Posted October 28, 2023 (edited) On 10/28/2023 at 10:19 AM, Duxredux said: I have some general guesses and questions related to this, but nothing concrete. Maybe the Sliver that Sliverism is referring to is to is Marsh himself and not actually TLR. We learn in TLM that periodically Harmony Invests Marsh and expands his capacity to operate as the mythological figure of Death. Similar, but slightly different - my headcanon (barring more evidence) is that Sliverism is revering a pantheon of those that have become Slivers of Infinity: Rashek, for having worked to save mankind for a millenium Vin, for her sacrifice at the Catacendre Marsh, for reasons described above and his connection to TLR This idea was informed by my Full Mistborn re-read pre-TLM and connecting the AoL Sliverism quote back to: (HoA Ch 60) Spoiler “So,” Yomen said, drawing her attention back to him, “you came to take my city because you heard of my stockpile, and because you feared a return of the Lord Ruler’s power.” “I didn’t say that,” Vin said, frowning. “You said that you feared me.” “As a foreign power,” Vin said, “with a proven ability to undermine a government and take it over.” “I didn’t take over,” Yomen said. “I returned this city, and the dominance, to its rightful rule. But that is beside the point. I want you to tell me of this religion your people preach.” “The Church of the Survivor?” “Yes,” Yomen said. “You are one of its heads, correct?” “No,” Vin said. “They revere me. But I’ve never felt that I properly fit as part of the religion. Mostly, it’s focused around Kelsier.” “The Survivor of Hathsin,” Yomen said. “He died. How is it that people worship him?” Vin shrugged. “It used to be common to worship gods that one couldn’t see.” “Perhaps,” Yomen said. “I have . . . read of such things, though I find them difficult to understand. Faith in an unseen god—what sense does that make? Why reject the god that they lived with for so long—the one that they could see, and feel—in favor of one that died? One that the Lord Ruler himself struck down?” “You do it,” Vin said. “You’re still worshipping the Lord Ruler.” “He’s not gone,” Yomen said. Vin paused. “No,” Yomen said, apparently noting her confusion. “I haven’t seen or heard of him since his disappearance. However, neither do I put any credence in reports of his death.” “He was rather dead,” Vin said. “Trust me.” “I don’t trust you, I’m afraid,” Yomen said. “Tell me of that evening. Tell me precisely what happened.” So Vin did. She told him of her imprisonment, and of her escape with Sazed. She told him of her decision to fight the Lord Ruler, and of her reliance on the Eleventh Metal. She left out her strange ability to draw upon the power of the mists, but she explained pretty much everything else—including Sazed’s theory that the Lord Ruler had been immortal through the clever manipulation of his Feruchemy and Allomancy in combination. And Yomen actually listened. Her respect for the man increased as she spoke, and as he didn’t interrupt her. He wanted to hear her story, even if he didn’t believe it. He was a man who accepted information for what it was—another tool to be used, yet to be trusted no more than any other tool. “And so,” Vin finished, “he is dead. I stabbed him through the heart myself. Your faith in him is admirable, but it can’t change what happened.” Yomen stood silently. The older obligators—who still sat on their benches—had grown white in the face. She knew that her testimony might have damned her, but for some reason she felt that honesty—plain, blunt honesty—would serve her better than guile. That’s how she usually felt. An odd conviction for one who grew up in thieving crews, she thought. Ruin had apparently grown bored during her account, and had walked over to look out the window. “What I need to find out,” Yomen finally said, “is why the Lord Ruler thought it necessary for you to think that you had killed him.” “Didn’t you listen to what just I said?” Vin demanded. “I did,” Yomen said calmly. “And do not forget that you are a prisoner here—one who is very close to death.” Vin forced herself to be quiet. “You find my words ridiculous?” Yomen said. “More ridiculous than your own? Think of how I see you, claiming to have slain a man I know to be God. Is it not plausible that he wanted this to happen? That he’s out there, still, watching us, waiting . . .” That’s what this is all about, she realized. Why he captured me, why he’s so eager to speak with me. He’s convinced that the Lord Ruler is still alive. He just wants to figure out where I fit into all of this. He wants me to give him the proof that he’s so desperately wishing for. “Why don’t you think you should be part of the skaa religion, Vin?” Ruin whispered. She turned, trying not to look directly at him, lest Yomen see her staring into empty space. “Why?” Ruin asked. “Why don’t you want them worshipping you? All of those happy skaa? Looking toward you for hope?” “The Lord Ruler must be behind all of this,” Yomen mused out loud. “That means that he wanted the world to see you as his killer. He wanted the skaa to worship you.” “Why?” Ruin repeated. “Why be so uncomfortable? Is it because you know you can’t offer them hope? What is it they call him, the one you are supposed to have replaced? The Survivor? A word of Preservation, I think. . . .” “Perhaps he intends to return dramatically,” Yomen said. “To depose you and topple you, to prove that faith in him is the only true faith.” Why don’t you fit? Ruin whispered in her head. “Why else would he want them to worship you?” Yomen asked. “They’re wrong!” Vin snapped, raising hands to her head, trying to stop the thoughts. Trying to stop the guilt. Yomen paused. “They’re wrong about me,” Vin said. “They don’t worship me, they worship what they think I should be. But I’m not the Heir of the Survivor. I didn’t do what Kelsier did. He freed them.” You conquered them, Ruin whispered. “Yes,” Vin said, looking up. “You’re looking in the wrong direction, Yomen. The Lord Ruler won’t return.” “I told you that—” “No,” Vin said, standing. “No, he’s not coming back. He doesn’t need to. I took his place.” Elend had worried that he was becoming another Lord Ruler, but his concern had always seemed flawed to Vin. He hadn’t been the one to conquer and reforge an empire, she had. She’d been the one who made the other kings submit. She’d done exactly as the Lord Ruler had. A Hero had risen up, and the Lord Ruler had killed him, then taken the power of the Well of Ascension. Vin had killed the Lord Ruler, then taken that same power. She’d given up the power, true, but she’d filled the same role. It all came to a head. The reason why the skaa worshipping her, calling her their savior, felt so wrong. Suddenly, her real role in it all seemed to snap into place. “I’m not the Survivor’s Heir, Yomen,” she said sickly. “I’m the Lord Ruler’s.” He shook his head dismissively. “When you first captured me,” she said, “I wondered why you kept me alive. An enemy Mistborn? Why not just kill me and be done with it? You claimed that you wanted to give me a trial, but I saw through that. I knew you had another motive. And now I know what it is.” She looked him in the eyes. “You said earlier that you planned to execute me for the Lord Ruler’s murder, but you just admitted that you think he’s still alive. You say that he’ll return to topple me from my place, so you can’t kill me, lest you interfere with your god’s plans.” Yomen turned away from her. “You can’t kill me,” she said. “Not until you’re certain of my place in your theology. That’s why you kept me alive, and that’s why you risk bringing me in here to talk. You need information only I can give—you have to get testimony from me in a trial of sorts because you want to know what happened that night. So you can try to convince yourself that your god still lives.” Yomen didn’t respond. That's one of the main reasons why I think Sliverism is going to be the worship of people who have touched the Power and become Slivers, which can also lead to friction in future Eras when different religions all claim Vin (but in different ways - as some RL religions claim a different role for certain RL religious figures). Edited April 16, 2024 by Treamayne SPAG
Trusk'our he/him Posted October 28, 2023 Posted October 28, 2023 7 hours ago, Duxredux said: I have some general guesses and questions related to this, but nothing concrete. Maybe the Sliver that Sliverism is referring to is to is Marsh himself and not actually TLR. We learn in TLM that periodically Harmony Invests Marsh and expands his capacity to operate as the mythological figure of Death. With direct delegation of power from a dual Shard, has Marsh's soul expanded to become a Sliver at this point? Does this boost of power have any similar effects to the Well of Ascension as either an attuning power or the effect on the soul? Why did Saze do this, was he Investing Marsh in this manner meant to provide greater stability to Marsh's frayed conglomerate soul? Was he just pulling in Marsh for some subcontracted work and that's it? If Marsh were to die, is his soul sufficiently infused by this process for Marsh to persist indefinitely as a Cognitive Shadow and perhaps make a similar return to the physical realm using the same mechanism that Kelsier has? Greater Cosmere spoilers: Hide contents How much of this is related to references to Ironeyes as Death cropping up on worlds far removed from Scadrial? I think that clearly Brandon has something in mind for Marsh other than him quietly passing away between eras and that there are quite a few hints as to what that could be, but I don't know if we have enough pieces to really put anything together yet. I feel like that would be a pretty cool theme, making Marsh a Sliver of Ruin by holding the Investiture once held in the Pits of Hathsin the way his brother is a Sliver of Preservation by merging with the Well of Ascension and later the Shard of Preservation itself. Plus, it would allow Marsh to resist direct control of outside influences via the Hemalurgic Flaw, which would have been a nice favor from Sazed: Spoiler YouTube Spoiler Stream 3 - Arcanum (coppermind.net) ChromiumVoodoopunk Does Kelsier being a Sliver make him more resistant to Harmony's control through Hemalurgy? Brandon Sanderson Yes. Unfortunately, we don't know if this is the case yet, but I just think it would be pretty cool (and might help explain why Marsh is viewed as an avatar of Death on other worlds, if something truly supernatural is going on as Khriss suspects).
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