The protagonist's biography

[+Oltux72]

Do we agree on the following sequence of events?

1. Sigzil ceases to be a Windrunner
2. Sigzil becomes a bearer of the Dawnshard Hoid once carried
3. Sigzil becomes a Skybreaker
4. Sigzil inadvertedly kills his spren
5. Sigzil gives the Dawnshard up
6. Sigzil becomes an Arcanist (It seems like he spent a period of several years in Silverlight)
7. He has an encounter with the Night Brigade
8. They start hunting him

[Ookla the Bald]

I agree with everything up to five. Afterwards, who knows. I got the impression that the Night Brigade was pretty much always chasing him, but that could be faulty. 

[+Oltux72]

52 minutes ago, The Known Novel said:

I agree with everything up to five. Afterwards, who knows. I got the impression that the Night Brigade was pretty much always chasing him, but that could be faulty. 

He spent time studying the arcana. I don't see how that would be compatible with being hunted all the time.

[Ookla the Bald]

4 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

He spent time studying the arcana. I don't see how that would be compatible with being hunted all the time.

It's implied he's been running for decades, you can pick a lot up in that time. But my assumptions could definitely be wrong. I just thought that was the implication, and it seemed to be supported by him having almost hodgepodge knowledge. 

He could have also learned those things while on Roshar one way or another. That would be a good answer to both of our suppositions.

[+Oltux72]

40 minutes ago, The Known Novel said:

He could have also learned those things while on Roshar one way or another. That would be a good answer to both of our suppositions.

He knows about arcana, engineering rocket engines, cooling requirements in space ships, nuclear reactors, ...

That assumes that Roshar made an incredible leap in technology or that he stayed on Roshar for decades after getting the Dawnshard.

[Ookla the Bald]

3 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

He knows about arcana, engineering rocket engines, cooling requirements in space ships, nuclear reactors, ...

That assumes that Roshar made an incredible leap in technology or that he stayed on Roshar for decades after getting the Dawnshard.

I feel that, with how he seems to be jumping around, these are things that a scientifically minding Sigzil could just find out. He does say that he's older than the Greater Good, which puts him at least in his eighties by my guess. He's what, late thirties as of Stormlight? If Hoid of all people thinks Sig has seen more of the cosmere than himself, that's at least a couple decades bouncing around. Which leaves the gap between the halves of SA, then a short few years doing something I suppose. Could be studying Arcana, could be something else.

I am starting to agree with you though, thinking over the "when you first learned they were chasing you" line. I don’t think that would be written that way if it was immediate. 

[Jeffo]

1 hour ago, The Known Novel said:

I feel that, with how he seems to be jumping around, these are things that a scientifically minding Sigzil could just find out. He does say that he's older than the Greater Good, which puts him at least in his eighties by my guess. He's what, late thirties as of Stormlight? If Hoid of all people thinks Sig has seen more of the cosmere than himself, that's at least a couple decades bouncing around. Which leaves the gap between the halves of SA, then a short few years doing something I suppose. Could be studying Arcana, could be something else.

I am starting to agree with you though, thinking over the "when you first learned they were chasing you" line. I don’t think that would be written that way if it was immediate. 

Weird, I get the impression he was a lot older than 80

[Ookla the Bald]

26 minutes ago, Jeffo said:

Weird, I get the impression he was a lot older than 80

Well, that's a bare minimum to be older than the Greater Good. I got the impression that he was approaching or had just surpassed his hundreds and was somewhere in the 95-120 range, but that's pure guesswork.

[+Oltux72]

19 minutes ago, The Known Novel said:

Well, that's a bare minimum to be older than the Greater Good. I got the impression that he was approaching or had just surpassed his hundreds and was somewhere in the 95-120 range, but that's pure guesswork.

I have to point out that this is related to the relative chronology. If you take Tress of the Emerald Sea to predate Sunlit Man Nomad's minimum age is just short of 400.

Edited October 2 by Oltux72
typos

[Ookla the Bald]

47 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

I have to point out that this is related to the relative chronology. If you take Tress of the Emerald Sea to predate Sunlit Man Nomad's minimum age is just short of 400.

If you take it that way, which I don't think most people do. I personally think Sunlit, if not the earliest SP, is at least before Tress, which I think is likely the last in world. And that is a very long time to run from an organization as powerful as the Night Brigade seems. 

But on the other hand, Hoid did say Sig has seen more of the Cosmere than him, which should be a feat that should take some time. So while we should definitely be posting these questions to Brandon when the spoiler stream rolls around, I don't think there's any way to know in the near future.

[Yumiya]

12 hours ago, The Known Novel said:

He could have also learned those things while on Roshar one way or another.

We know he spent time studying at first.

Quote

Most of what he knew about engineering came from the first few years of his exile, when he’d fallen in with some scholars and really had a chance to learn. -Ch 23

 

[Ookla the Bald]

Ooooh. Good quote. I think that does align more with my original thoughts, as I doubt he would reference anything other than the chase as his exile.

[Dager000]

On 10/1/2023 at 6:10 PM, Oltux72 said:

Do we agree on the following sequence of events?

1. Sigzil ceases to be a Windrunner
2. Sigzil becomes a bearer of the Dawnshard Hoid once carried
3. Sigzil becomes a Skybreaker
4. Sigzil inadvertedly kills his spren
5. Sigzil gives the Dawnshard up
6. Sigzil becomes an Arcanist (It seems like he spent a period of several years in Silverlight)
7. He has an encounter with the Night Brigade
8. They start hunting him

I feel like 3 is of particular note given the Skybreakers (as an organization under Nale) overwhelmingly joined Odium, save for Szeth. From the limited interaction(s?) we’ve seen between Szeth and his highspren, the Knight Radiant is — as Aux referred to Sigzil — treated like a squire in their agreement; which, to me, indicates that the highspren themselves find Odium’s cause just. In that case, what does it mean or imply that Sigzil, who I feel like we can say with near certainty didn’t change sides, bonded a highspren?

Obviously individuals can exist outside the order-as-faction (re: Szeth), and we know that spren civilizations aren’t monoliths (e.g. the various honorspren factions in RoW), but this still strikes me as particularly notable. Additionally, it seems doubtful that Sigzil would break his bond in a way that would leave his honorspren a deadeye, so what does that tell us about Ba-Ado-Mishram/the state of spren and Rosharan Spiritwebs in the years following RoW?

Lots of questions, and it’s 5:34 AM for me so my brain isn’t totally working, but I’m curious to hear what other people think. And myself once I’ve slept. 

Edited October 3 by Dager000

[Dager000]

1 minute ago, Dager000 said:

I feel like 3 is of particular note given the Skybreakers (as an organization under Nale) overwhelmingly joined Odium, save for Szeth. From the limited interaction(s?) we’ve seen between Szeth and his highspren, the Knight Radiant is — as Aux referred to Sigzil — treated like a squire in their agreement; which, to me, indicates that the highspren themselves find Odium’s cause just. In that case, what does it mean or imply that Sigzil, who I feel like we can say with near certainty didn’t change sides, bonded a highspren?

Obviously individuals can exist outside the order-as-faction (re: Szeth), and we know that spren civilizations aren’t monoliths (e.g. the various honorspren factions in RoW), but this still strikes me as particularly notable. Additionally, it seems doubtful that Sigzil would break his bond in a way that would leave his honorspren a deadeye, so what does that tell us about Ba-Ado-Mishram/the state of spren and Rosharan Spiritwebs in the years following RoW?

Lots of questions, and it’s 5:34 AM for me so my brain isn’t totally working, but I’m curious to hear what other people think. And myself once I’ve slept. 

Oh, and per Sigzil’s age, he frankly doesn’t seem hurt/broken enough to be 400 years old, but I agree that 80 is too young. Sadly there’s probably not enough of a timeline at the moment to accurately place him, but anywhere from 120-200 at least feels right to me.

[+Oltux72]

43 minutes ago, Dager000 said:

I feel like 3 is of particular note given the Skybreakers (as an organization under Nale) overwhelmingly joined Odium, save for Szeth. From the limited interaction(s?) we’ve seen between Szeth and his highspren, the Knight Radiant is — as Aux referred to Sigzil — treated like a squire in their agreement; which, to me, indicates that the highspren themselves find Odium’s cause just.

I am afraid that is a mischaracterization of the Skybreaker view. They find the Parshendi cause just, yet Odium commands them, so that is the consequence of that fact.

The point here is that whatever happened in relation to the contest of champions may have drastically changed that.

[Dunkum]

one thing to consider on his age: Mistborn Era 2 takes place within a few years of Stormlight 1, last I heard anyway, so Scadrial has to develop from early industrial to spacefaring in less than the time it takes for Sigzil to get from Roshar to Canticle. 50-80 (for age between 80 and 125) years seems awfully low for that level of development

[+Oltux72]

43 minutes ago, Dunkum said:

one thing to consider on his age: Mistborn Era 2 takes place within a few years of Stormlight 1, last I heard anyway, so Scadrial has to develop from early industrial to spacefaring in less than the time it takes for Sigzil to get from Roshar to Canticle. 50-80 (for age between 80 and 125) years seems awfully low for that level of development

Go back from Gagarin's flight by 80 years and you end up in 1881.

[Dunkum]

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

Go back from Gagarin's flight by 80 years and you end up in 1881.

sure, but there is a HUGE difference between orbiting the planet or even going to the moon vs travel between stars. it's been 50+ years since the moon landing and we still haven't sent a human to even the closest other planets to say nothing sending manned voyages outside the solar system. sure Cosmere folks will have magic, but thats still an enormous leap

[Dager000]

5 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

I am afraid that is a mischaracterization of the Skybreaker view. They find the Parshendi cause just, yet Odium commands them, so that is the consequence of that fact.

The point here is that whatever happened in relation to the contest of champions may have drastically changed that.

Sure, early-morning mistake on my part, and you're definitely right about which cause they find legal basis/justification for. Regardless, allying with the Fused + Singers still relies on being okay with the fact that Odium guides their movement like... almost completely. We have no reason to believe that most Fused are resisting Odium in some way or another (Leshwi, arguably, doesn't even do this until the end of RoW; and Raboniel is resisting kind of, but only in the sense that she seeks an end to the endless warring through the victory of either side). And, in turn, the Fused guide the Singers, some of whom resist, but the Skybreakers are allying with the combat force (at the moment) and not the (few) rebels.

Either way, might be letting this get away from the topic of the post lol.

[Treamayne]

On 10/1/2023 at 7:10 PM, Oltux72 said:

Do we agree on the following sequence of events?

1. Sigzil ceases to be a Windrunner
2. Sigzil becomes a bearer of the Dawnshard Hoid once carried
3. Sigzil becomes a Skybreaker
4. Sigzil inadvertedly kills his spren
5. Sigzil gives the Dawnshard up
6. Sigzil becomes an Arcanist (It seems like he spent a period of several years in Silverlight)
7. He has an encounter with the Night Brigade
8. They start hunting him

I recommend expanding this slightly:

1. Sigzil becomes a Windrunner Squire (OB)
2. Sigzil Third Oath Windrunner becomes CompanyLord (RoW)
3. Sigzil Speaks the Fourth Windrunner Oath (unknown)
4. Sigzil ceases to be a Windrunner (unknown)
   1. Possibly to bear a Dawnshard
5. Sigzil becomes a bearer of the Dawnshard Hoid once carried (TSM Ch 10)
6. Sigzil becomes a Skybreaker (TSM Ch 28 / WorthProtecting image)
7. Sigzil inadvertedly kills his spren (TSM Ch 20)
8. Sigzil gives the Dawnshard up (TSM Ch 21)
   1. Sigzil self-exiles from Roshar - unknown if this is before or after he gives up the Dawnshard
9. Sigzil spends time at Silverlight (TSM Ch 35)
   1. Sigzil becomes an Arcanist (unknown if this is before, during, or after his time at Silverlight)
10. He has an encounter with the Night Brigade (TSM Ch 28)
    1. They start hunting him

[+Oltux72]

9 hours ago, Treamayne said:

I recommend expanding this slightly:

1. Sigzil becomes a Windrunner Squire (OB)
2. Sigzil Third Oath Windrunner becomes CompanyLord (RoW)
3. Sigzil Speaks the Fourth Windrunner Oath (unknown)
4. Sigzil ceases to be a Windrunner (unknown)
   1. Possibly to bear a Dawnshard
5. Sigzil becomes a bearer of the Dawnshard Hoid once carried (TSM Ch 10)
6. Sigzil becomes a Skybreaker (TSM Ch 28 / WorthProtecting image)
7. Sigzil inadvertedly kills his spren (TSM Ch 20)
8. Sigzil gives the Dawnshard up (TSM Ch 21)
   1. Sigzil self-exiles from Roshar - unknown if this is before or after he gives up the Dawnshard
9. Sigzil spends time at Silverlight (TSM Ch 35)
   1. Sigzil becomes an Arcanist (unknown if this is before, during, or after his time at Silverlight)
10. He has an encounter with the Night Brigade (TSM Ch 28)
    1. They start hunting him

Auxillary mentioned that a shade killed him. That very strongly implies that Sigzil carried the Dawnshard off Roshar (indeed that may have been his mission - deny Odium the Dawnshards by getting away from Roshar), unless you want to propose that somebody brought a shade to Roshar. Hence the exile has to come earlier.

[Gavtyven]

8 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Auxillary mentioned that a shade killed him.

Do you remember when? Because Aux also mentions the Dawnshard killed him

[danex]

17 hours ago, Dunkum said:

one thing to consider on his age: Mistborn Era 2 takes place within a few years of Stormlight 1, last I heard anyway, so Scadrial has to develop from early industrial to spacefaring in less than the time it takes for Sigzil to get from Roshar to Canticle. 50-80 (for age between 80 and 125) years seems awfully low for that level of development

my thoughts exactly, I think sig has to be at least 200, with my personal guess being around 400. 

15 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Auxillary mentioned that a shade killed him. 

He mentioned that Nomad had an encounter with a shade, i don’t remember him saying anything about the shade being involved in his death. 

[+Oltux72]

20 minutes ago, Gavtyven said:

Do you remember when? Because Aux also mentions the Dawnshard killed him

I might have jumped to conclusions, subconciously. We have a mention of Nomad almost meeting his end at an encounter with a shade. I assumed that this meant that the Dawnshard defended its bearer at the cost of most of Auxillary's life, but that may be a false conclusion. My apologies.

[Treamayne]

On 10/4/2023 at 2:42 AM, Oltux72 said:

On 10/4/2023 at 2:20 AM, Gavtyven said:

Do you remember when? Because Aux also mentions the Dawnshard killed him

I might have jumped to conclusions, subconciously. We have a mention of Nomad almost meeting his end at an encounter with a shade. I assumed that this meant that the Dawnshard defended its bearer at the cost of most of Auxillary's life, but that may be a false conclusion. My apologies.

Here are the references (the two times I could find him mentioning his visit to Threnody):

Spoiler

TSM Ch 7:

Quote

 

Did you guess that the captive was this woman’s sister?

“That I did pick out,” he said, thoughtful. “Threnodites. Don’t they…persist when they’re killed?”

They turn into shades under the right circumstances, the hero explains to his dull-minded valet, who really should remember almost being eaten by one.

“Right,” he said. “Green eyes, then red when they want to feed. Complete lack of memories. I feel like we would have seen those already. Shades come out in the darkness, and we’ve been in nothing but darkness since getting here.”

 

TSM Ch 22:

Quote

 

Nomad jumped despite himself. Even though he’d been expecting it, seeing a shade was unnerving. When he’d been on Threnody, these things had been incredibly dangerous. Society contorted around their existence, living by strict rules to avoid angering them. When the eyes went red, these things were deadly, seeking to kill. Yet here, the people of Beacon kept them like…pets?

“We fled the Evil,” the ghost said in a whispering voice, like rustling papers.