Shades weren't always aggressive

[Authorspren]

We all know that shades become aggressive based on certain conditions. But what if this wasn't always the case?

Think about it. Nazh implied that there were certain rituals to becoming a Cognitive Shadow. Since he's from Threnody, we all assume that the type of Cognitive Shadow he referred to was a shade. But, without going into possible spoilers, the Cognitive Shadow that prompted this comment was that of a (relatively) ordinary human.

Further, why would anyone want to become a creature that is mindless half the time and an uncontrolled murderer the other half? Even if it grants immortality, that doesn't seem like a very desirable fate. Another clue that shades might not be in control is their red eyes. Red is the color of corrupted Investiture.

Finally, something happened on Threnody that nearly wiped out a continent. We don't know what the Evil was, but it is probably related to Investiture in some way. At least one other series has had a disaster that affected its magic system, and I'm fairly positive that Threnody used to have a different magic system.

That brings us to my theory: the magic system of Threnody used to be that people could transform themselves into Cognitive Shadows (or something along those lines). Then the Evil showed up, killing a bunch of people and forcing the others to flee. In the process, it corrupted the magic system as well. The Cognitive Shadows were corrupted by the Evil, becoming mindless and aggressive shades.

Thoughts?

[alder24]

6 hours ago, Authorspren said:

Think about it. Nazh implied that there were certain rituals to becoming a Cognitive Shadow. Since he's from Threnody, we all assume that the type of Cognitive Shadow he referred to was a shade. But, without going into possible spoilers, the Cognitive Shadow that prompted this comment was that of a (relatively) ordinary human.

No. I think (and most probably will think the same) he is referring to a proper, sentient Cognitive Shadow, not Shades. You don't need any ritual to become a Shade, you just need to get killed by another Shade. Most likelt there are ways of Threnody that will make you a normal Cognitive Shadow, and Nazh knows about them.

6 hours ago, Authorspren said:

That brings us to my theory: the magic system of Threnody used to be that people could transform themselves into Cognitive Shadows (or something along those lines). Then the Evil showed up, killing a bunch of people and forcing the others to flee. In the process, it corrupted the magic system as well. The Cognitive Shadows were corrupted by the Evil, becoming mindless and aggressive shades.

It was the opposite - humans discovered the Forests of Hell before Evil appeared and conquered the Fallen World. The Forest of Hell was already populated by Shades when humans discovered it. I doubt the Evil is responsible for Shades.

From the Arcanum Unbounded we know that parts of Ambition were thrown at Threnodite system during fight between Shards, I believe this corrupted whatever investiture was present here and changed its nature, including all humans living here. People turning into Shades is most likely the result of the fight between Odium and Ambition, and chunks of Ambition raining down on Threnody. I doubt people were being turned into Shades before this fight. But there is still a way for a Threnodite to become a proper Cognitive Shadow, not a Shade, and this is what Nazh was talking about. Also this WoB said the lack of Shard influences Cognitive Shadows:

Spoiler

Questioner

If ... [Cognitive Shadow] or a seon went to the Forests of Hell, would they be shades there?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, that is the same thing. Now, you can see that there-- the people on that planet; their Investiture; the lack of Shard means that their Cognitive Shadows react differently.

[...]

[edited spoilers]

Words of Radiance San Francisco signing (March 6, 2014)

Cosmere spoilers:

Spoiler

Ambition's Vessel was Sho Del, we know from WoBs that Fainlife spread out of Yolen to other worlds, some believe that Threnody is one such system, and the Evil is some kind of Fainlife. It fits loosely with its description form non-canon, unpublished work "The Liar of Partinel", from Coppermind:

Spoiler

In The Liar of Partinel, the fainlife had rapidly grown to cover much of the planet, though humans eventually learned to keep it in check with something known as a trune ring;^[10][11] trune was the name given to the regular, non-fain ecosystem.^[12] A type of fainlife known as skullmoss heralded the advance of further fainlife. Its leaves would sometimes drift across a trune ring and some cities would gather them up and burn them, though this was not strictly necessary. Merely interacting with the fainlife was safe and some cities even used fain wood for construction, but eating any amount of fainlife was deadly to humans.^[11]

 

Spoiler

LewsTherinTelescope

The fainlife from the Liar sample chapters is one of my favorite elements of the Cosmere so far. Has it spread significantly anywhere besides Yolen so far? I really want to see more of it.

Brandon Sanderson

It has spread off of Yolen in signficant ways. 

YouTube Spoiler Stream 3 (Dec. 16, 2021)

 

Spoiler

graciemoo

You've said fainlife has spread beyond Yolen in significant ways. Have we seen this in the books, excluding Mraize's fain branch?

Brandon Sanderson

No, you have not. Watch out for Sho Del, they'll be showing up, dragons will be showing up, but actual fainlife, when I'm talking about that I'm kind of talking about the entire ecosystem. You'll know when you see it.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 4 (June 16, 2022)

 

 

But it's true, there is more to Shades than them being just mindlessly aggressive - Silence's grandmother has never attacked Silence, even when enraged.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

On 22.9.2023 at 1:45 PM, alder24 said:

From the Arcanum Unbounded we know that parts of Ambition were thrown at Threnodite system during fight between Shards, I believe this corrupted whatever investiture was present here and changed its nature, including all humans living here. People turning into Shades is most likely the result of the fight between Odium and Ambition, and chunks of Ambition raining down on Threnody. I doubt people were being turned into Shades before this fight. But there is still a way for a Threnodite to become a proper Cognitive Shadow, not a Shade, and this is what Nazh was talking about.

(Scadrial/Roshar/First of the Sun)

Spoiler

Secret History strongly implies that the rituals were a personal choice and that those cognitive shadows were used as a military force by somebody, presumably the planetary government, on Threnody. That raises two questions.

1. Why would you forgo those rituals? You basically reject immortality.
2. Why would they allow anybody to die without those rituals? That means potentially unleashing a serial killer ghost.

It seems to me (though that is based on very little evidence) that Threnody originally had a magic system in which ghosts took the role of Spren or Aviar.

 

[alder24]

2 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

(Scadrial/Roshar/First of the Sun)

  Hide contents

Secret History strongly implies that the rituals were a personal choice and that those cognitive shadows were used as a military force by somebody, presumably the planetary government, on Threnody. That raises two questions.

1. Why would you forgo those rituals? You basically reject immortality.
2. Why would they allow anybody to die without those rituals? That means potentially unleashing a serial killer ghost.

It seems to me (though that is based on very little evidence) that Threnody originally had a magic system in which ghosts took the role of Spren or Aviar.

 

Spoilers:

Spoiler

Not really. SH only implies that Nazh is aware of rituals that made people into a CS, not that those are Tren rituals. Moreover he is saying that a person can't simply decide to become a CS, suggesting that this is dependent on some external force, like a Shard. Most likely he is talking about his experience from his homeworld, but at this point he visited numerous planets with Khriss and could simply be referring to general Cosmere rule he and Khriss discovered. SH ch 3.2:

Quote

“One doesn’t merely decide to become a shadow!” the man exclaimed. He had a faintly strange accent, one Kelsier couldn’t place. “It’s an important rite! With requirements and traditions. This . . . this is . . .” He threw his hands into the air. “This is a bother.”

You need investiture. Massive amounts of investiture that most people can't get. People can just undergo those rituals. There is something very wrong with Threnody and Threnodites that makes them into Shades after death.

Spoiler

Questioner

Because Zahel was especially Invested when he died, he became that other soul. Does that mean that Elend wasn't actually...?

Brandon Sanderson

Zahel is a special case. What happened with him is, on his planet, he was specifically chosen by the Shard to be Returned. That happens, you don't have to be specifically Invested for that. The god gives them that. Now, to become a Cognitive Shadow, which is what certain people in the cosmere are, you need a powerful amount, an enormous amount.

Questioner

So not the bead?

Brandon Sanderson

Not just being a Mistborn, not just... he wasn't even close to being where he needed to be, if you want to end up as a Cognitive Shadow. You need to do some special hoops. We're talking, drawing forth the power of a Shard, or being endowed with the power of a Shard, or a certain number of Breaths would do it. There is a threshold that you could get, you're gonna end up as a Cognitive Shadow.

FanX 2021 (Sept. 17, 2021)

I don't think Shades are used as a military force by Threnody, just as a weapon. We saw Nazh using gun shooting Shades in BoM broadsheets. But Ire might be simply worried of Shades spreading out of Threnody in some way, that's why they have guardposts there, and devices detecting Shades in other places. SH ch 5.2:

Quote

“Well, well,” the ancient creature said. “My foresight does not seem so foolish now, does it, Captain? The powers of Threnody wish to join the main stage. Engage the device.”
Kelsier had an immediate sinking feeling. Whatever that device did, he suspected it would not go well for him. He turned to bolt down the corridor, making for one of the windows. Behind him, the powerful golden light of the gemstone faded.
Kelsier felt nothing.
“Well,” the captain said from behind, voice echoing. “Nobody from Threnody within a day’s march of here. Looks like a false alarm after all.”
Kelsier hesitated in the empty corridor. Then, cautious, he crept back to peek into the room. The guards and the wizened creature all stood around the device, seeming displeased.
“I do not doubt your foresight, ancient one,” the guard captain continued. “But I do trust my forces on the Threnodite border. There are no shadows here.”
“Perhaps,” the creature said, resting her fingers on the gemstone. “Perhaps there was someone, but the guard was wrong about it being a Cognitive Shadow. Have the guards be on alert, and leave the device on just in case. This timing strikes me as too opportune to be coincidental. I must speak with the rest of the Ire.”

 

 

[+Oltux72 he/him]

6 hours ago, alder24 said:

Spoilers:

  Hide contents

Not really. SH only implies that Nazh is aware of rituals that made people into a CS, not that those are Tren rituals. Moreover he is saying that a person can't simply decide to become a CS, suggesting that this is dependent on some external force, like a Shard.

I don't think Shades are used as a military force by Threnody, just as a weapon. We saw Nazh using gun shooting Shades in BoM broadsheets. But Ire might be simply worried of Shades spreading out of Threnody in some way, that's why they have guardposts there, and devices detecting Shades in other places. SH ch 5.2:

 

Spoiler

 

It would seem to me that his wording is quite clear. The preecondition to becoming a CS are the proper rituals. Any other meaning behind his words would be odd. If he is with Khrissalla for any length of time he obviously knows of the Returned.

And yes, I would not suggest that the Threnodites used the Shades as seen in the Forests of Hell. I think they used what ever a Threnodite turns into with the proper rituals. That is not a Shade.

 

 

Edited September 30, 2023 by Oltux72
Spoilering gone wrong

[alder24]

1 minute ago, Oltux72 said:

Spoiler

It would seem to me that his wording is quite clear. The preecondition to becoming a CS are the proper rituals. Any other meaning behind his words would be odd. If he is with Khrissalla for any length of time he obviously knows of the Returned.

And yes, I would not suggest that the Threnodites used the Shades as seen in the Forests of Hell. I think they used what ever a Threnodite turns into with the proper rituals. That is not a Shade.

 

Fix your post.

Spoilers:

Spoiler

Yes, his wording is clear, there are some rituals that will make you into CS, but it doesn't mean those are Threnodite rituals. He didn't specify that. As per WoB, just having enough Breaths will make you into CS, that doesn't mean Returned, but it means investing somebody enough before death, or using perpendicularities after death per another WoB, will make them into CS. 

Spoiler

Questioner

In Secret History, Nazh briefly mentioned that there's requirements or conditions to become a Cognitive Shadow. Can you tell us one of those?

Brandon Sanderson

Uh, lots of Investiture. Is one way. As a certain person discovered.

Questioner

If that person were to not have entered Preservation's pool, it still would have given the same result?

Brandon Sanderson

If they had not, they would be gone.

Questioner

I wasn't clear. If they had done a different pool, not Preservation's.

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, if they had been able to Invest themselves heavily, then they could have stuck around, yes. That wasn't Preservation's pool, that was more a function of--dipping themselves, pulling an Achilles inside of a Shardpool when you are dead, turned out to work. It's not the only way, not everyone on... Threnody, for instance, is heavily Invested.

Oathbringer release party (Nov. 13, 2017)

 

We don't know how a proper Threnodite CS looks like and what they are capable of - if they identify Kelsier phasing through walls as a CS from Threnody, it looks like they have no physical body, just like Kelsier, and that's either Shades, or CS like Kelsier. For me it's more likely Ire was talking about Shades.

 

[+Oltux72 he/him]

On 9/30/2023 at 3:12 PM, alder24 said:

  Hide contents

We don't know how a proper Threnodite CS looks like and what they are capable of - if they identify Kelsier phasing through walls as a CS from Threnody, it looks like they have no physical body, just like Kelsier, and that's either Shades, or CS like Kelsier. For me it's more likely Ire was talking about Shades.

 

Then why did the Forest of Hell terrify them?

[alder24]

12 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Then why did the Forest of Hell terrify them?

Because Shades are dangerous and would kill them?

[+Oltux72 he/him]

On 11/26/2023 at 1:22 PM, alder24 said:

Because Shades are dangerous and would kill them?

But they were known, if the formation of Shades predates Nazriloff's exile.

[alder24]

3 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

But they were known, if the formation of Shades predates Nazriloff's exile.

Yes, of course Shades were known, that doesn't make them less dangerous. Cosmere spoilers:

Spoiler

Shades leaving Threnody into the wider Cosmere is terrifying because that's possible (Returned proves this) thus securing the border of the Threnotide system is that much more important. Having outposts near Threnody is just a smart thing to do, they are the first line of defense in case someone tries to take Shades off world. And we've already seen guns shooting Shades in Mistborn Era 2, now imagine an army of Shades - that's why it's dangerous.