Cognitive spiking

[Xiahida]

The Coppermind says while in the Physical realm you use a metal spike to steal an attribute. Can you be in the Cognitive realm and charge by stabbing one of the candle-like souls.

What if you spike a spren that doesn't have a bond? Can you gain surgebinding without having a bond?

[Quantus he/him]

As far as we know you cannot spike objects, even the bead and flames of actual things.  WOB implies you could Spike a Spren, but that you'd need to physically travel to Shadesmar and do it to their native form.  You can steal the Bond that way (though the spren could still just End it), but you cant Create a new Connection with Hemalurgy. 

[Treamayne]

10 minutes ago, Xiahida said:

The Coppermind says while in the Physical realm you use a metal spike to steal an attribute. Can you be in the Cognitive realm and charge by stabbing one of the candle-like souls.

Unlikely, since the "hema" in hemalurgy is "blood" (Spikes must touch blood to steal an attribute, and spikes also need to be stored in blood to reduce their loss of potency). 

Now if Person A and Misting B were both physically in Scadrial's Shadesmar (having traversed a shardpool), and Person A spiked Misting B - that should work since it is still a physical body that is being spiked. 

10 minutes ago, Xiahida said:

What if you spike a spren that doesn't have a bond? Can you gain surgebinding without having a bond?

Unlikely. Here's what we know of Hemalurgy's interaction with Nahel Bonds. WoBs:

Spoiler

 

Quote

 

Questioner

I was wondering if a bond to a spren, a Nahel bond, may be taken with a Hemalurgic spike.

Brandon Sanderson

This is possible but it's gonna-- Since the spren has free will it's going to be-- Yeah it's going to have weird ramifications but it is a possible thing.

 

Quote

Jack Eaton

Can Hemalurgy steal a Nahel bond? And if so, would that bond be unbreakable for as long as the spike was implanted.

Brandon Sanderson

This is a very dangerous and frightening thing in the cosmere, but it is possible--and the implications of it are something I intend to cover eventually in the books.

 

 

[alder24]

26 minutes ago, Xiahida said:

The Coppermind says while in the Physical realm you use a metal spike to steal an attribute. Can you be in the Cognitive realm and charge by stabbing one of the candle-like souls.

It's hard to say in my opinion. Spikes are dealing with stealing pieces of soul, but also blood seems to be required. So just stabbing a cognitive manifestation of a living person might not work. But you definitely can stab spren and CS like Kelsier from CR.

24 minutes ago, Xiahida said:

What if you spike a spren that doesn't have a bond? Can you gain surgebinding without having a bond?

No, you need to spike a spren and a Radiant - you need both Connection from Radiant and power from spren, that requires two spikes, Just spiking a bondless spren isn't enough.

Spoiler

Questioner (paraphrased)

If I wanted to Hemalurgically acquire a power from First of the Sun, which metal would the spike need to be?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

This is going to be pretty complicated, but several metals would work.

Questioner (paraphrased)

Would it involve Connection between the person being spiked and the bird?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Well it would be even harder than on Roshar, where you need to somehow spike the spren and also the Radiant. You would need to spike the bird and steal the power, but also spike the person and steal Connection.

GenCon 2017 (Aug. 17, 2017)

 

[Xiahida]

What if you tap a large amount of F-duralumin and Connect to a spren then spiked them. Is that the connection you need to the spen or are Oaths different?

[alder24]

21 minutes ago, Xiahida said:

What if you tap a large amount of F-duralumin and Connect to a spren then spiked them. Is that the connection you need to the spen or are Oaths different?

No. That connection isn't Nahel Bond and will fade when you stop tapping. You need to have in your spirit web a permanent Nahel Bond to the spren, and a stolen power. Without Nahel Bond that power form spren would be useless.

[MistbornMathematician]

4 hours ago, alder24 said:

No. That connection isn't Nahel Bond and will fade when you stop tapping. You need to have in your spirit web a permanent Nahel Bond to the spren, and a stolen power. Without Nahel Bond that power form spren would be useless.

Strictly speaking, Compounding Connection has unknown, potentially very mysterious effects. It can also force a bond between the Compounder and a Kandra. It is entirely possible that tapping an incredible amount of Connection could indeed create a Nahel Bond, though I would not wager money on it.

Spoiler

mikkomikk

Seeing that Vin and Kelsier was able to absorb Preservation's power due to Connection, is it theoretically possible for a duralumin Compounder to compound Connection so much to the point where they could draw in the mists and 'absorb' some of Harmony's power?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO

General Reddit 2018 (Dec. 21, 2018)

Spoiler

Dopetruffles

And finally, whether a duralumin compounder could break into a kandra?

Brandon Sanderson

Um... yes, possible, yeah.

WorldCon 76 (Aug. 18, 2018)

 

[alder24]

10 hours ago, MistbornMathematician said:

Strictly speaking, Compounding Connection has unknown, potentially very mysterious effects. It can also force a bond between the Compounder and a Kandra. It is entirely possible that tapping an incredible amount of Connection could indeed create a Nahel Bond, though I would not wager money on it.

Maybe, but we see from BoM that there are different types of connections stored, you would likely have to store Nahel Bond connection in the first place. Even if not, tapping regular connection will only grant you Nahel Bond as long as you tap metalmind - you need to have a constant connection if you want to use your powers, when you stop, you can't use your powers - and because you stored a trace amount of connection between you and spren in the first place (if "general" connection to people won't work), you would need to tap ridiculous amounts of connection, so large that diminishing returns would just keep draining you out of attribute. Compounding would somewhat help, but it's easier to spike both Radiant and spren, than be born as duralumin compounder - spiritual quadrant Ferrings are extremely rare, not to mention compounders. It's just a very inconvenient way to get powers, highly dependent on your access to metalminds, it's much easier to just spike a Radiant.

Nahel Bond isn't just a regular connection - it's a merger of souls, spren's soul fills cracks in Radiant's soul - if you could replicate that with regular connection to a spren, you would likely need to tap a lot to gain that. Compounding would be required to maintain that connection, and you would have to constantly burn your metalminds to get the necessary amount to counteract diminishing returns. Just like what Rashek did with youth. It's possible, but it's so much easier to spike a Radiant than be lucky to be born a duralumin compounder.

[MistbornMathematician]

6 hours ago, alder24 said:

Nahel Bond isn't just a regular connection - it's a merger of souls, spren's soul fills cracks in Radiant's soul - if you could replicate that with regular connection to a spren, you would likely need to tap a lot to gain that. Compounding would be required to maintain that connection, and you would have to constantly burn your metalminds to get the necessary amount to counteract diminishing returns.

That is what I would personally think the most likely outcome would be. It is conceivable that, if you force enough Connection to artificially form a Nahel Bond, due to the special properties of that type of Connection, it will snap into being and last even when you stop tapping Connection, but not only does that seem improbable but it is also not particularly helpful as, I would imagine, the spren in question would be highly unnerved and would promptly sever the bond and flee in terror. As you said, spiking would be far more accessible. The only real applications I can think of are forming very temporary Nahel Bonds with unbonded spren for Surgebinding purposes or using the temporary bond to kill the spren, but I think a duralumin Compounder can do much better things with their time than assassinating the Nightwatcher. 

[alder24]

53 minutes ago, MistbornMathematician said:

That is what I would personally think the most likely outcome would be. It is conceivable that, if you force enough Connection to artificially form a Nahel Bond, due to the special properties of that type of Connection, it will snap into being and last even when you stop tapping Connection

There are some questions about it, arising from unknown mechanics of F-duralumin. Can you tap connection to somebody that isn't connected with you, or do you have to first create that connection in a regular, non-invested way? Would you have to use a blanked connection to people (Malwish medallions use blanked connection to places, which connects to the nearest land when tapped) and stand as close to spren as possible, so it wouldn't connect to the nearest person, or could you decide with whom do you want to connect? While the idea seems theoretically possible, we don't really know what it means to connect to somebody via F-duralumin, and what could it achieve.

59 minutes ago, MistbornMathematician said:

the spren in question would be highly unnerved and would promptly sever the bond and flee in terror

I don't think so. If you spike them first to get their powers, they would be a deadeye now (at best) and you would likely connect to the fragment of soul in your spike, in a way spren can't sever that bond. When Brandon talks about spikes and Surgebinding, spiking just the Nahel Bond from Radiant would allow spren to break the bond, but when he talks about spiking both Radiant and spren, he never mentioned that and he presents it as a viable way to get a power - so I guess spren can't break the bond for multiple reasons (like being a deadeye, or that piece of their soul is gone now and stuck in the spike).

[MistbornMathematician]

2 minutes ago, alder24 said:

There are some questions about it, arising from unknown mechanics of F-duralumin. Can you tap connection to somebody that isn't connected with you, or do you have to first create that connection in a regular, non-invested way? Would you have to use a blanked connection to people (Malwish medallions use blanked connection to places, which connects to the nearest land when tapped) and stand as close to spren as possible, so it wouldn't connect to the nearest person, or could you decide with whom do you want to connect? While the idea seems theoretically possible, we don't really know what it means to connect to somebody via F-duralumin, and what could it achieve.

Yeah, very hard to say. I doubt we will see anything definitive on that topic anytime soon either. 

3 minutes ago, alder24 said:

I don't think so. If you spike them first to get their powers, they would be a deadeye now (at best) and you would likely connect to the fragment of soul in your spike, in a way spren can't sever that bond. When Brandon talks about spikes and Surgebinding, spiking just the Nahel Bond from Radiant would allow spren to break the bond, but when he talks about spiking both Radiant and spren, he never mentioned that and he presents it as a viable way to get a power - so I guess spren can't break the bond for multiple reasons (like being a deadeye, or that piece of their soul is gone now and stuck in the spike).

There I was referring to the spren breaking a potential Nahel Bond forced through applying extremely high amounts of Connection.

But yes, it seems like you need to steal the Connection from the Radiant and then the power itself from the spren if you want to get an unbreakable Nahel Bond with, in a way, yourself. Perhaps this actually does give a valid reason to Compound Connection, though. If it indeed can force a Nahel Bond, and then you spike the power from the spren while it's active, you could avoid needing to spike a Radiant or find a bonded spren -- you would just need to find any suitable spren, blast them with Connection, spike them, and now you're done. Many "ifs" necessary, but it does seem like an appalling thing to do were it possible.