Firesong Posted September 4, 2023 Report Share Posted September 4, 2023 (edited) Mathmatician, how have you not seen how Compounding draws from Preservation? It is explicitly obvious as it takes power from Allomancy, which draws Investiture from Preservation. Therefore, what you are now arguing, is that Allomancy, Hemalurgy, and Feruchemy are all 100% ruin. You are continuously making less and less sense, and rejecting more and more of the text, as time goes on. I suggest you calm down, walk away from the computer for a second, and think through the arguments that you are attempting to make. Quote However, if the Feruchemist were also an Allomancer, he might be able to burn his own metal storages, releasing the energy within them tenfold. Mistress Vin tried to burn some of my metals earlier, but couldn't access the power. However, if you were able to make up the Feruchemical storages yourself, then burn them for the extra power... Quote Chapter Thirty-Eight Preservation's Power All right, so maybe I lied about there only being three magic systems in this book. It comes down to how you term the powers of Preservation and Ruin, who kind of blanket the entire system. There are a lot of things going on here, and—well, the truth is I don't want to mention all of them, for fear of spoiling future books. However, I'll give you a few rules to apply. First, to these forces, energy and mass are the same thing. So, their power can take physical shape—as Preservation's did in the bead of metal Elend ate. Second, there is a bit of Preservation inside of all the people—and it's this that allows the people to perform Allomancy. It needs to be awakened and stirred to be of use, but when it is, a proper metal can draw forth more of Preservation's power. It's like the metal attunes the bit within the person, allowing it to act as a catalyst to grab more power. Allomancy is not fueled by metal; it is fueled by Preservation. The metal is the means by which a person can access that fuel, however. If there were another way to access it, then the metal wouldn't be needed. Preservation's touch on people differs. Some have more, some have less. This doesn't make them better or worse people—indeed, some most touched by Preservation have been among the worst people in the world. As Ruin later points out, there is a difference between being evil and being destructive. Regardless, if a person can get more Preservation into them, they become better Allomancers. Hence Elend becoming a Mistborn. Like all people, he had the potential within him—it was just too small of a potential to be awakened through normal means. That little jolt of Preservation's body, however, expanded and awakened his Allomancy. As a tidbit, that was a side effect of what that bead of metal did. It wasn't the main purpose of the bead, and if another Allomancer were to burn it, it would do something else. Furthermore, Alder is not disproven by WoBs on Rosharan Magic systems. Brandon always avoids the question of what exactly counts and what the other systems are. He refuses to even answer if Fabrials are counted as one or multiple. Or how many systems Cultivation has, or really anything. He is very cagey about all of it. He never gave anything as definitive as you believe. He is only open about Surgebinding and Voidbinding making up 20 of them. Past that, he is keeping everything a secret for now. In fact, I feel that it is suggested that it would be another system of 10 sub-systems Quote Quantumplation (paraphrased) I haven't read Way of Kings yet, but I've read Warbreaker and Mistborn, and the thing I like most about them is the Magic systems. Will Way of Kings have multiple magic systems? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) Depending on how you count it, Stormlight Archive will have 3 or 30 different magic systems. Quote rags You have told us there are more than 30 magical systems on Roshar. I am assuming there are 10 Surgebindings and 10 Voidbindings. Do the next 10 belong to another such classification? If yes, can you give us the name for it. Brandon Sanderson Fabrials are part of it. Quote Crspu Is there going to be a magic system for every Shard? Brandon Sanderson Uh, yes, whether there'll be books? We get into a problem here... is... what is a magic system, right? So for instance like, would you count all of Surgebinding as one magic system, or is it ten magic systems, right? Is Windrunning a separate magic system from Skybreaking. Right, and is it the Surges? Is it that? What do you call a magic system? Is the system of fabrials a magic system, or is it a subset of what's happening on Roshar? And in that case, it's like I delineated it pretty strongly in Mistborn, but in Stormlight, it's like... kind of Surgebinding is kind of Honor and Cultivation, right? And so is there a magic system for each of them or not? So the answer is yes and no, in that every one of the Shards will inspire really interesting magic systems. But is there a one to one? What do you call a magic system? And beyond that, will I have time to write books about all of these, I don't know. You could even look at Sel. Sel has how many magic systems, is it one? Is it lots? Is Forging a different magic system from AonDor, or is it two aspects of the same magic system and so... It's tricky. He goes back and forth, doesn't fully elaborate on things, and etc. Again, he is not as open as you claim. He implies that the Old Magic is either not its own entire magic system, or it is part of a new system. He once said Fabrials are the third, but that is contradicted by there being far more than ten Fabrials. Quote Questioner How many magic systems are in The Stormlight Archive, and how many of them haven't been seen? Brandon Sanderson I would say the only major one you haven’t seen is Voidbinding, it depends on how you count them. I count fabrials as one, Surgebinding as one, and Voidbinding as one. And then the Old Magic is kind of its own weird thing. Thus I take this one with a grain of salt. We have Altering, (Augmenters and Diminishers), Pairing (Conjoiners and Reversers), Warning, Surge (9 Surges), then Clocks, Attractors, Repulsers, Stabilizers, Drainers, Lifts, Suppressors, and Aura. Thus there are at least 22 fabrials. Which makes it not fit as the third. On it only replicating nine of the 10. Quote kvancleeff21 What was the fabrial used by Nale to completely revive Szeth at the end of Words of Radiance? That seems like an immensely powerful fabrial, and I don’t think it has been mentioned since. Brandon Sanderson During the last days of the heights of the Knights Radiant, they were figuring out how to replicate most Radiant abilities with fabrials. This is where... the Oathgates as a guide for that sort of thing. So you're just seeing a fabrial that can replicate what an Edgedancer does, or a Truthwatcher. There were fabrials created that could do this for all ten Surges. Okay, nine of the ten Surges. Bondsmithing is its own weird thing, as usual. So yes, it's a very valuable fabrial to have, and that is why you haven't seen much more of it because it is in the hands of the Skybreakers, and we aren't spending a lot of time with the Skybreakers. But yeah, it is a thing they have. And there are fabrials that can replicate the other eight as well. You've seen several of them in the books already. Which claims they cannot replicate Adhesion. Which fits with how Adhesion is strange in general. And on his current canon on Atium, everyone can burn Atium, the reason that not everyone could during FE is due to the fact it was actually an Atium-Electrum alloy, and thus those that could burn it are Electrum mistings. Pure Atium only being able to be burned by certain people was old canon that has been revised retroactively. It is now an in-world misunderstanding of what they were actually burning. Quote Xais56 Brandon has said that everyone ought to be able to burn Atium, like they can all burn Lerasium, and the fact that they can't was an oversight on his part that he would've done different in hindsight. Maybe now he's had an in-universe reason to re-write the laws of allomancy it's back to his intended concept; Mistborn burn all 16 base metals, mistings burn one base metal, non-allomancers can only burn godmetal. Peter Ahlstrom My explanation for this is that Preservation somehow caused all naturally occurring atium to form as an alloy of atium and electrum. The atium Mistings were actually electrum Mistings. Xais56 It's a very tidy solution, but it creates the maddening question of what does pure atium do? Peter Ahlstrom That answer has already been revealed canonically. RAFO. Quote Kingsdaughter613 Primary question: Peter recently said something about atium in Era 1 actually being an atium-electrum alloy, which is called nalatium*. Is this accurate? Brandon Sanderson This is accurate, yes. You could, by the way, just continue to call it atium. That's what they think atium is in-world. It's very slightly tainted. Kingsdaughter613 Secondary questions: If the above is yes, did Kelsier get malatium by separating the atium and gold from the silver in nalatium? If so, do atium and gold have similar melting points? Brandon Sanderson That's more of a RAFO in that I'm not sure I want to canonize any of that right now. * he did not actually give a name, this was a misunderstanding I personally am not convinced by a single thing you have said, and suggest you follow in Alder's footsteps of actually providing sources for your claims, you seem to have a tendency of simply making claims. The way you are doing it is a way a lot of people tend to do arguments that they cannot actually back up, they confidently make unsourced claims, and want people to believe them due to the fact they said it so confidently. So please, try to find textual evidence to support your claims and theories. It helps a lot on your credibility and in how convincing you can be. Edited September 4, 2023 by Firesong 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted September 4, 2023 Report Share Posted September 4, 2023 (edited) 12 hours ago, MistbornMathematician said: Which could be an excellent counterargument to your later suggestions of Shards manifesting new invested arts elsewhere. No, because Honor's invested art already exists on Roshar, which is different than a new Shard coming to Roshar and fully investing in it, manifesting his own invested art there - like Odium. 12 hours ago, MistbornMathematician said: Given that Ishar made the Radiants, who indisputably use an invested art of Honor, I do not know why you say his own powers were likely not from Honor. Ishar made Radiants AFTER he became a Herald with Honorblade granting him powers of the Bondsmith. Before that ever happened, Ishar was able to manipulate connections on Ashyn, which wasn't Surgebinding, but people on Roshar would call it that. Surgebinding is of Honor. Whatever was on Ashyn was different from what we have on Roshar. 12 hours ago, MistbornMathematician said: Neither of the WoBs you cite say that compounding draws power from Preservation -- did you copy the wrong thing? Moreover, by the second one, if metalminds are generally filled with Ruin's Investiture, as I claim is likely, it tracks that compounding would draw the power from Ruin. What are you talking about? You have two WoBs that complement each other. It is a simple logical leap - one WoB says that Allomancy is powered by Preservation, the other is saying that compounding fuels Feruchemy with Allomancy. When you're burning a metalmind, you draw directly from Preservation, as you're using Allomancy to fuel Feruchemy. The metal acts as a filter, which tells the power what shape to take - an invested charge of a metalmind overwrites the normal filter of this metal and tells it to take another shape - attribute. But the power still comes from the same source that fuels Allomancy - from Preservation. The only moment when natural Allomancy is fueled by Ruin is when you're burning Atium and its alloys - in that case you're powered by Ruin's essence trapped in the form of metal, not from Ruin himself. So no, compounding doesn't draw from Ruin, investiture in metalmind is only a filter for the power given by Preservation. Spoiler Andrew The Great (paraphrased) What would happen if a person were to burn a metal that was Feruchemically charged using Allomancy? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) The metal used in Allomancy is like a key or a doorway to the power that Allomancy actually uses. The metal acts as a filter, much as the Aons in Elantris do, to determine what the power actually does. However, if the metal is Feruchemically charged, then it will basically become a super-burst of Feruchemical power with no Allomantic effect. The Feruchemical charge acts as a filter as well as the metal, and changes what the power does. in this case, say you were burning steel, you would just be massively speedy for a second, and wouldn't actually have the ability to push on anything Allomantically. Hope that answered the question. I get the concept, so if you need me to explain it differently, let me know and I'll try. Oh, the other thing I forgot is that this concept only works if it's a metal that you charged yourself. If it's a metal someone else charged, it would just work like regular Allomancy, and the Feruchemical charge would just cease to exist. Andrew The Great (paraphrased) If someone aluminum or duralumin burned the Feruchemically charged metals, what would happen? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) Basically the same thing as above, except with aluminum. Aluminum, they would just go away. Idaho Falls Signing (June 20, 2009) Spoiler Lyndsey Luther Ok, last question. It was really difficult coming up with three questions that haven’t been asked already... Brandon Sanderson OK... you’re not going to ask me the “what would you ask me” question? Lyndsey Luther Not quite... Brandon Sanderson OK good, because I hate that one! (laughs) Lyndsey Luther My question is if there’s anything that you’ve never been asked that you would like to talk about? Brandon Sanderson Oooooh, ok. Hm. That one is so hard! Every time people ask me something like this... What have I never been asked that people should be asking, is basically what the question is? Something that the fans have just missed... They pick up on so much, that it’s hard... I do wonder if, you know… all the magic systems [in my books] are connected and work on some basic fundamental principles, and a lot of people haven’t been asking questions about this. One thing I did get a question on today, and I’ll just talk about this one... they didn’t ask the right question, but I nudged them the right way, is understanding that tie between AonDor [the magic system from Elantris] and Allomancy [Mistborn’s magic system]. People ask about getting the power from metals and things, but that’s not actually how it works. The power’s not coming from metal. I talked a little about this before, but you are drawing power from some source, and the metal is actually just a gateway. It’s actually the molecular structure of the metal… what’s going on there, the pattern, the resonance of that metal works in the same way as an Aon does in Elantris. It filters the power. So it is just a sign of “this is what power this energy is going to be shaped into and give you.” When you understand that, Compounding [in Alloy of Law] makes much more sense. Compounding is where you are able to kind of draw in more power than you should with Feruchemy. What’s going on there is you’re actually charging a piece of metal, and then you are burning that metal as a Feruchemical charge. What is happening is that the Feruchemical charge overwrites the Allomantic charge, and so you actually fuel Feruchemy with Allomancy, is what you are doing. Then if you just get out another piece of metal and store it in, since you’re not drawing the power from yourself, you’re cheating the system, you’re short-circuiting the system a little bit. So you can actually use the power that usually fuels Allomancy, to fuel Feruchemy, which you can then store in a metalmind, and basically build up these huge reservoirs of it. So what’s going on there is… imagine there’s like, an imprint, a wavelength, so to speak. A beat for an Allomantic thing, that when you burn a metal, it says “ok, this is what power we give.” When it’s got that charge, it changes that beat and says, “now we get this power.” And you access a set of Feruchemical power. That’s why Compounding is so powerful. Open The Fridge Interview (Nov. 16, 2011) 12 hours ago, MistbornMathematician said: The main issue with all of that is that the math simply doesn't track. It would be something like saying you used the power of a nine-volt-battery to make a golf-ball sized clump of antimatter, or (if you do indeed drain the soul itself) using a nine-volt battery to charge another nine-volt battery up without the first nine-volt battery being permanently drained. We know from that WoB and others that the concept of being truly "end-neutral" isn't strictly accurate, despite what people in-universe think. Is it such a jump, then, to say that the math not working isn't a flaw with the magic system but is instead a clue? What math doesn't add up? The power you store is the power you get back - nothing in your metalmind came from external source, only from you. The only external power used in Feruchemy is to change the physical attribute into investiture. That's it, it does a work and is used up. But only what's yours is stored in your metalmind. You have Brandon that said so many times that Feruchemy uses only your body, and nothing else. That's why it is end-neutral, as when you're tapping a metalmind, you're drawing from the power you previously put in there, which came only from your body. 12 hours ago, MistbornMathematician said: That WoB does not say that. Instead, it says that people with Hemalurgic spikes have their spiritwebs cracked open significantly more as long as they have the spike in them, and so the people with spikes are drastically more easy to speak to for both Sazed and Ruin before him. Bavadinium spikes blocking Sazed could either be a feature of the god metal itself or a function of all god metal Hemalurgic spikes -- we do not know nearly enough to say it is one or the other. If we're nitpicking then I will point out that this WoB doesn't say that. It said "they are connected to him via spikes". We know that Bavadinium allows you to talk to Trell, that has to involve connection. 12 hours ago, MistbornMathematician said: "Lifebinding" is most likely to be Old Magic. Old Magic is what Nightwatcher does, at least partially. Spoiler swamp-spirit Is the Old Magic in Shinovar, and is this a result of something to do with Cultivation? Brandon Sanderson The Old Magic is at The Valley, which is not in Shinovar, which is… If you've got a book, I'll show you where it is.... Let's see where Issac's wonderful map is, the first big one… Right here. So the Valley's right there. So that's where you go in order to visit the Old Magic. Footnote: From lunarubato's report: "In the mountain range in central Roshar, south of the Purelake." Steelheart Portland signing (Oct. 8, 2013) Spoiler Questioner One of your characters wishes for and is given capacity... That is one of my favorite concepts of all the books that I read of yours. Can you talk about the inspiration for that gift of limited and maximum capacity? Brandon Sanderson To not give spoilers, there is a character in The Stormlight Archive who has asked the Old Magic, which is a force that kind of has references in things like The Monkey's Paw and what-not, a force that doesn't always give you things exactly the way you want them. And I built, by the way, the Old Magic into The Stormlight Archive because I felt that at a certain point, while I love to do these rule-based magic systems, I wanted there to be a contrast to it... It's kinda like this idea that, yes, modern science and things have explained a lot of stuff, but there's something primal, perhaps, in the past, I don't actually know. But that idea that there's a primal magic that doesn't really adhere to the rules, we can't anticipate it, was really, I felt, vital for me to include so that I didn't overexplain everything in the books. So, there's a person who asked for capacity. It wanted to be, let's say, strong enough to lift (it's not actually strength, but it's more of an emotional thing) what was coming. That, I feel like, is a very real thing to wish for, right? I have frequently, like... people say "What would you wish for," and I say "The ability to fly," because I would love to be able to fly. But really, if I sit and think about it, capacity, ability, the capacity to hold all of this stuff in my head, would probably be the sort of thing that I would wish for. So this character, in some ways, is giving wish fulfillment for me, because that's what I would maybe ask for if given the opportunity, but even that kind of turns on its head because the Old Magic just doesn't get people in the way that people think they should be gotten. Footnote: The Monkey's Paw is a story by W. W. Jacobs. Oathbringer San Francisco signing (Nov. 15, 2017) 12 hours ago, MistbornMathematician said: See any of the WoBs where the magic systems on Roshar are listed, all of which disprove your theory to a resounding degree. No, because the WoB I gave you said "no one has used Cultivation magic on-screen (not counting boons and curses)." Lifebinding isn't just Old Magic. 12 hours ago, MistbornMathematician said: oreover, saying Ashyn's disease-based magic is a type of Old Magic is a very reasonable jump, given that they both share the positive-and-negative structure. What positive and negative structure are you talking about? They are related to Cultivation, that's it. The Ashynite magic system is based on symbiotic relationship, a bond, Old Magic isn't. Spoiler Vanahian Brandon has said that the Ashynite disease-based magic was related with the Old Magic. Did he mean it in a direct way? Like this magic from Ashyn was a branch or a variety of the Old Magic system? Brandon Sanderson I do have to RAFO this, for the most part. Suffice it to say that the disease magic is related to a symbiotic bond between spren-like Investiture and microorganisms. General Reddit 2020 (Sept. 24, 2020) 12 hours ago, MistbornMathematician said: Hence the "and leave the soul cracked" bit. We also know that Hemalurgy also takes significantly more Investiture than just the bit which is the Connection itself, while it may be reasonably assumed that Bondsmithing would not do this. Recall that Hemalurgy leaves the soul absolutely mangled, after all. It doesn't need to do the same as Hemalurgy, it does similar things, that's enough. We don't know what would be the effects of stealing someone's attributes via Bondsmithing. 12 hours ago, MistbornMathematician said: It's enough to make me question exactly what your definition of invested art is. I've told you what my definition of invested art is multiple times. The ability to access powers of creation filtered by Shard's intent, often based on people's perception of them. Spoiler Kaimipono Allomancy is fueled by Preservation's body? How exactly does that work? And how does that interact with Atium—it's fueled by both gods' bodies? Brandon Sanderson The powers of Ruin and Preservation are Shards of Adonalsium, pieces of the power of creation itself. Allomancy, Hemalurgy, Feruchemy are manifestations of this power in mortal form, the ability to touch the powers of creation and use them. These metallic powers are how people's physical forms interpret the use of the Shard, though it's not the only possible way they could be interpreted or used. It's what the genetics and Realmatic interactions of Scadrial allow for, and has to do with the Spiritual, the Cognitive, and the Physical Realms. Condensed 'essence' of these godly powers can act as super-fuel for Allomancy, Feruchemy, or really any of the powers. The form of that super fuel is important. In liquid form it's most potent, in gas form it's able to fuel Allomancy as if working as a metal. In physical form it is rigid and does one specific thing. In the case of atium, it allows sight into the future. In the case of concentrated Preservation, it gives one a permanent connection to the mists and the powers of creation. (I.e., it makes them an Allomancer.) So when a person is burning metals, they aren't using Preservation's body as a fuel so to speak—though they are tapping into the powers of creation just slightly. When Vin burns the mists, however, she'd doing just that—using the essence of Preservation, the Shard of Adonalsium itself—to fuel Allomancy. Doing this, however, rips 'troughs' through her body. It's like forcing far too much pressure through a very small, fragile hose. That much power eventually vaporizes the corporeal host, which is acting as the block and forcing the power into a single type of conduit (Allomancy) and frees it to be more expansive. Hero of Ages Q&A - Time Waster's Guide (Oct. 15, 2008) Why can there be only 16 invested arts for a Shard? What if Adonalsium was Shattered into more than 16 Shards? It was possible: Spoiler James Furr If, instead of the 16, there had been 20 members at the Shattering of Adonalsium (with the same level of involvedness)...could it have Shattered into 20 pieces? Brandon Sanderson It's quite possible that a different number could have ended up working. Skyward Pre-Release AMA (Oct. 5, 2018) 12 hours ago, MistbornMathematician said: Overall, I must confess to not understanding your overall, fundamental issue with this. Hemalurgy is Ruin's invested art. Allomancy is Preservation's invested art. Feruchemy is a merger of Ruin and Preservation, invested art which came form both of them. Shard don't have that much control over their invested arts as you propose - they do have some control, but they can't switch them. Feruchemy doesn't draw from any Shard - what you put into metalminds you get back and nothing came from a different source than your body I disagree with your theory of Lerasium-god metal-base metal alloys, but still accept that we know too little about god metals to say anything about what a triple alloy would do. I don't see a reason why a Shard would be limited to only 16 Magics, when Allomancy and Feruchemy gives Preservation 32 already. But because we know next to nothing about those things, it's hard to say anything definite. But we repeat the same things over and over again, getting further away from the main topic, and disagreeing over everything. Now we're talking whether Old Magic is Lifebinding and related to Ashynite invested art - which is just pointless. That's why I think it's better to just end it, agree to disagree because we can't convince each other on those points. Especially when you're rejecting such simple and confirmed things like "Feruchemy being of both Ruin and Preservation". I see your theory as interesting speculations, but that's it, speculations, not based on any concrete evidence, and in places contradicted by books, WoBs and logical connections between them. That's why it's better to just agree to disagree. Edited September 4, 2023 by alder24 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MistbornMathematician Posted September 5, 2023 Author Report Share Posted September 5, 2023 22 hours ago, Firesong said: Mathmatician, how have you not seen how Compounding draws from Preservation? It is explicitly obvious as it takes power from Allomancy, which draws Investiture from Preservation. Therefore, what you are now arguing, is that Allomancy, Hemalurgy, and Feruchemy are all 100% ruin. You are continuously making less and less sense, and rejecting more and more of the text, as time goes on. I suggest you calm down, walk away from the computer for a second, and think through the arguments that you are attempting to make. I would strongly urge you to re-examine most, if not all, of what you have said. I cannot think of any reasonable justification for why you would say something like "Therefore, what you are now arguing, is that Allomancy, Hemalurgy, and Feruchemy are all 100% ruin", which is highly perplexing, so I will assume it was for dramatic effect. I shall therefore re-cite this, as I am fairly certain that you did not see any post wherein it was quoted: Spoiler Brandon Sanderson Atium's Mechanism Atium is, indeed, different from the other metals. When you burn most Allomantic metals, it opens a conduit through which you can draw upon Preservation's power and use it in very specific ways. Atium doesn't do that. Atium is, itself, a fuel. When you burn it, the metal itself provides the power. A subtle distinction, I know, but it has to do with where the power is coming from. Most Allomancy is fueled by Preservation, but atium and malatium are fueled by Ruin. This metal doesn't quite belong on the table where it has been placed. The Hero of Ages Annotations (April 1, 2010) This, first and foremost, strongly implies that Allomantically burning any invested metal draws power from the Investiture in the metal (if that Investiture is available, of course). A metalmind with a stored attribute becomes an invested metal. This does not change it to be a metal that has a different Allomantic effect, as if being Invested did indeed cause that metal to change its effect, then there would likely be no distinction between a metalmind with Investiture that the Allomancer can access and one with Investiture that they cannot. Instead, we see that a metal which contains Investiture which the Allomancer can harness (Investiture which, by either the metal's own properties or the method of Feruchemy that invested the metal, is storing a given attribute) uses that Investiture as "fuel" during the Compounding process. As such, unless you consider all of the Investiture stored in a metalmind to be entirely of Preservation (which you do seem to disagree with), we now have a strong implication that not all of the Investiture used during the Compounding process comes directly from Preservation. Furthermore, as I have stated previously, Feruchemy does not appear to be truly "end-neutral". I will now re-cite this: Spoiler Questioner So for the Old Magic, in this classification system of end-positive, end-neutral, and end-negative, where would that fall under? Brandon Sanderson So, almost every magic in the cosmere is end-positive, almost every magic is relying upon an external source of Investiture to power it. So that phrasing is mostly more relevant to Scadrial than anywhere else, because that concept is how I'm dealing with things like the laws of thermodynamics, and even what they call end-neutral is relying a little bit on the power of Investiture to facilitate. So even an end-neutral magic system as they define it on Scadrial is actually not end-neutral. What you get put in you get out, but the power is facilitating that transfer… So that phrasing is kind of a... Take that as a science on.. Scadrial that does not extrapolate well, and may not even be 100% accurate. Moderator That would have been a great thing to know before we did the cosmere magic panel. *laughter* Brandon Sanderson I look at it as, is an Investiture externally powering the magic, and if you look at Allomancy, yes it is. You are drawing that power out. Feruchemy, you are putting Investiture in from your own body, it's your energy transferring to Investiture, which is being stored, which you are then drawing out, and things like that. But that changing forms is facilitated by the magic. Whereas you're stealing stuff with-- So you could look, for instance at the magic on Nalthis, you could look at that one as being-- as kind of working as end-negative, meaning "I am taking it away from someone else", or end-positive depending on if you're the one receiving it or not. So again, it's a phrasing that can be useful as a tool but doesn't scale well to the other magics. JordanCon 2016 (April 23, 2016) This hints at end-neutrality being something of a misnomer, and seems to imply that all of the Investiture which a Feruchemist inserts into a metalmind comes from their body or their energy. There is no "firm" quantification of an Investiture-to-energy formula, as per Spoiler Questioner Have you ever considered the energy density of Stormlight compared to real world substances? Example: nuclear fuels. Is it kind of on that level? Brandon Sanderson I have a little group of cosmerenauts, fans of the books that I’ve known for the long time who are themselves physicists. And I have asked them to start helping me quantify these things. Right now, I don’t have them exactly quantified. The place we’re starting with is: which forms of Investiture in the cosmere, how much fantastical-unit-of-energy do they have, and how does that relate to a real-world joule, or something like that. And that’s something we’re in the process of doing, because we’ll need it by space age cosmere. But I’ve told them they have years to figure it out. The nice thing is, in our world, we have conservation of energy. I’ve talked about this in the cosmere: because we can go from energy to matter to Investiture (and any of the three can transfer between), we can pop energy out in interesting ways to fuel things if we need to. We can draw directly from the Spiritual Realm, or you can have some of this matter transferred into energy through becoming Investiture first, in a way that’s a little less explosive than normally getting energy out of matter is, in our world. That said, the magic system of Dragonsteel (which I wrote long ago, which is not released), one of the primary magic systems of that was actual nuclear physics. And nuclear fission was part of the magic system, being able to see the atoms and manipulate them. I don’t know if I’ll ever do that in actual cosmere, but it was one of the cosmere magics originally. So when you read Dragonsteel (we’ll probably release it sometime around the Words of Radiance leatherbound Kickstarter, would be my guess), you can read about people seeing… in cosmere terms, they’re called “axi.” Or “an axon,” rather than atoms. You can see people playing with that. And I even think there are rumors in the books of people playing with those to the point that they make enormous explosions that cause wastelands. Because you do something a little wrong, and suddenly you’re splitting some atoms, and that can be very bad. That can have ramifications. Waterstones RoW Release Event (Nov. 18, 2020) Spoiler Questioner How much have you thought about the mathematical relationship between Investiture and energy/matter? Is there a cosmere E=mc^2? Brandon Sanderson I've thought about the concepts a lot. The numbers, I actually tried to get some mathematicians... There are some lovely folks, I'm like, can we come up with a standardization? And it kind of broke their brains, not because they aren't smart people, they're very smart people, but they're like, "Brandon, where do we even start? How much energy is being expended?" and this sort of thing. I would like to get a unit of measurement, how much Investiture equals how much energy, but at the same time, the work being done by the various magic systems, it's going to be too constrictive to put too much math on that, I feel like. I would like to. It is a much bigger project than you might imagine it being. How much energy is stored in a sphere? That's kind of where we started. A sphere stores Investiture, obviously some of that Investiture is being lost as energy, it is transferring energy as the sphere releases light. That is happening automatically, it's decaying and radiation is happening. How much is it therefore losing, how much could it do, how much of that can be transferred to doing work with a Lashing... All of this stuff, I have thought about way too much, and we have no answers for you yet because it is a really big project. Maybe we will someday, or maybe we'll just say, this is too big a project to even be able to mathematically quantify. I'm sure if you have suggestions, you can post thoughts on the subreddits, and perhaps that will get to the various arcanists who are helping me with this. YouTube Spoiler Stream 4 (June 16, 2022) however we can observe what Investiture is generally capable of, compare it to what "raw" Investiture allowed Allomancers to do in TLM (sorry, but I do not have the book on me at this moment, so you will have to trust me that it occurred), and determine that turning Investiture into energy gives quite a lot of energy for just a little Investiture. Now, given this: Spoiler Yata Could a filled (fully feruchemical charge) metalmind block a Shardblade (or at least, resist a bit)? Brandon Sanderson Yes, it could. Excellent question. /r/books AMA 2015 (Sept. 3, 2015) Spoiler Questioner If something is heavily Invested, it's harder for a Shardblade to go through it, right? Brandon Sanderson Kind of. It depends on the kind of Investiture and things that are going on. But yes. If you want to block a Shardblade... Like a metalmind would be a good thing to use to fight a Shardblade. Questioner A person with a lot of Breath, like the God-King, would you be able to chop them with a Shardblade or no? Brandon Sanderson It's going to get very tricky on that, so I'll RAFO that for now. Let's just say that there are things. For instance, a Shardblade excising someone who's been Hemalurgically spiked is a theoretical possibility. Starsight Release Party (Nov. 26, 2019) we determine that a fully-filled metalmind is a highly invested object. As I have stated before, Feruchemy does not appear to respect the Cosmere's conservation laws, due to the fact that it seems that metalminds contain more Investiture than corresponds with the actual effect. As Feruchemy does not drain Investiture off of the soul or the body (which would of course need to be permanent so as not to create more Investiture from thin air), and as we have seen filled and almost-filled metalminds several times (including, if I am remembering correctly, several of Sazed's rings and the unkeyed gold bracelet that Wax receives) which were not filled with an incomprehensibly-large amount of the attribute, this strongly implies that a stored attribute does indeed take up quite a bit of Investiture. This Investiture, from the above WoB, is implied to come from entirely from energy (after all, it couldn't come from matter, as your mass would not permanently change after storing an attribute), but this makes very little sense when dealing with very low-energy attributes. Unless if things like taste, eyesight, hearing, determination, or other neurochemical attributes involve a shocking amount of energy in the Cosmere (as opposed to real life, where humans are incredibly energy efficient and our nerves, while generating a ton of voltage do not generate any amps), we essentially have two possibilities. Either the Investiture does come from inside the Feruchemist, or it does not. If it does, then the only reasonable assumption is that things like taste, eyesight, hearing, determination, and those other neurochemical attributes are in fact heavily invested. Taste, therefore, would be Investiture, and quite a bit of it. This seems, to me, to be unlikely. The alternative is that the Investiture comes from outside the Feruchemist, and exists as the means of of "encoding" the attribute into the metal. The most obvious comparison would be to how one can encode memories into Investiture. If we work under the assumption that the Feruchemist uses outside Investiture when they encode an attribute and releases that outside Investiture when they decode that attribute for use, this would indeed allow for the metalminds to contain more Investiture than a Feruchemist could pull out of it. This would also explain quite succinctly why an Allomancer, who would use both the encoding Investiture and the stored attribute as fuel, would obtain significantly more of that attribute from the Investiture in the metalmind alone, potentially not even requiring an outside source of Investiture. Now you might see why I think that the notion that Compounding gets all of its Investiture from Preservation is far from "explicitly obvious". Would you now agree? Unfortunately, as my schedule is somewhat crowded around this time of the year, I cannot properly respond to everything you have said at this time or all of the accusations you have made, but I will take a moment to address this: 23 hours ago, Firesong said: I suggest you follow in Alder's footsteps of actually providing sources for your claims, you seem to have a tendency of simply making claims. I, personally, do not see a need to provide the same source multiple times in a row or provide a source someone else has already provided, particularly when it was recent. Therefore, especially as time goes on and more sources enter the equation, I would rather not clutter up already-long posts with dozens of redundant sources. I will admit, though, that it did make your job of reading through all of the posts that much harder, and perhaps led to less-than-optimal understanding, so I apologize for my failure in that regard. Unfortunately, @alder24, I also do not currently have the time to respond with the detail or depth warranted, so for now I'll address only your final statement. 13 hours ago, alder24 said: I see your theory as interesting speculations, but that's it, speculations, not based on any concrete evidence, and in places contradicted by books, WoBs and logical connections between them. That's why it's better to just agree to disagree. The foundation of our disagreement is based upon those "contradictions" -- a true contradiction, a disproof, is something rigorous. We have been discussing rigor for some time now, which is why I've tried desperately to establish definitions and such. Agreeing to disagree is something for, well, disagreements. Such a disagreement is something like the effects of Lerasium alloys. You suggest that Lerasium-God Metal alloys grant an invested art of the Shard whose metal was alloyed with Lerasium, with the invested art in particular being "chosen" via Connection. I suggest that Lerasium-God Metal alloys grant all invested arts of that Shard, and base metal alloys with that alloy would grant a specific one. Certainly, I may point out issues with your suggestion, and you have pointed out issues with mine, but I do not consider your suggestion to be contradicted and (as far as I am aware) you have not claimed that mine is either. You believe yours to be more likely, I believe mine to be more likely, and we can most certainly agree to disagree on that. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firesong Posted September 5, 2023 Report Share Posted September 5, 2023 (edited) 14 hours ago, MistbornMathematician said: I would strongly urge you to re-examine most, if not all, of what you have said. I cannot think of any reasonable justification for why you would say something like "Therefore, what you are now arguing, is that Allomancy, Hemalurgy, and Feruchemy are all 100% ruin", which is highly perplexing, so I will assume it was for dramatic effect. I shall therefore re-cite this, as I am fairly certain that you did not see any post wherein it was quoted: Reveal hidden contents Brandon Sanderson Atium's Mechanism Atium is, indeed, different from the other metals. When you burn most Allomantic metals, it opens a conduit through which you can draw upon Preservation's power and use it in very specific ways. Atium doesn't do that. Atium is, itself, a fuel. When you burn it, the metal itself provides the power. A subtle distinction, I know, but it has to do with where the power is coming from. Most Allomancy is fueled by Preservation, but atium and malatium are fueled by Ruin. This metal doesn't quite belong on the table where it has been placed. The Hero of Ages Annotations (April 1, 2010) This, first and foremost, strongly implies that Allomantically burning any invested metal draws power from the Investiture in the metal (if that Investiture is available, of course). A metalmind with a stored attribute becomes an invested metal. This does not change it to be a metal that has a different Allomantic effect, as if being Invested did indeed cause that metal to change its effect, then there would likely be no distinction between a metalmind with Investiture that the Allomancer can access and one with Investiture that they cannot. Instead, we see that a metal which contains Investiture which the Allomancer can harness (Investiture which, by either the metal's own properties or the method of Feruchemy that invested the metal, is storing a given attribute) uses that Investiture as "fuel" during the Compounding process. As such, unless you consider all of the Investiture stored in a metalmind to be entirely of Preservation (which you do seem to disagree with), we now have a strong implication that not all of the Investiture used during the Compounding process comes directly from Preservation. Furthermore, as I have stated previously, Feruchemy does not appear to be truly "end-neutral". I will now re-cite this: we determine that a fully-filled metalmind is a highly invested object. As I have stated before, Feruchemy does not appear to respect the Cosmere's conservation laws, due to the fact that it seems that metalminds contain more Investiture than corresponds with the actual effect. As Feruchemy does not drain Investiture off of the soul or the body (which would of course need to be permanent so as not to create more Investiture from thin air), and as we have seen filled and almost-filled metalminds several times (including, if I am remembering correctly, several of Sazed's rings and the unkeyed gold bracelet that Wax receives) which were not filled with an incomprehensibly-large amount of the attribute, this strongly implies that a stored attribute does indeed take up quite a bit of Investiture. This Investiture, from the above WoB, is implied to come from entirely from energy (after all, it couldn't come from matter, as your mass would not permanently change after storing an attribute), but this makes very little sense when dealing with very low-energy attributes. Unless if things like taste, eyesight, hearing, determination, or other neurochemical attributes involve a shocking amount of energy in the Cosmere (as opposed to real life, where humans are incredibly energy efficient and our nerves, while generating a ton of voltage do not generate any amps), we essentially have two possibilities. Either the Investiture does come from inside the Feruchemist, or it does not. If it does, then the only reasonable assumption is that things like taste, eyesight, hearing, determination, and those other neurochemical attributes are in fact heavily invested. Taste, therefore, would be Investiture, and quite a bit of it. This seems, to me, to be unlikely. The alternative is that the Investiture comes from outside the Feruchemist, and exists as the means of of "encoding" the attribute into the metal. The most obvious comparison would be to how one can encode memories into Investiture. If we work under the assumption that the Feruchemist uses outside Investiture when they encode an attribute and releases that outside Investiture when they decode that attribute for use, this would indeed allow for the metalminds to contain more Investiture than a Feruchemist could pull out of it. This would also explain quite succinctly why an Allomancer, who would use both the encoding Investiture and the stored attribute as fuel, would obtain significantly more of that attribute from the Investiture in the metalmind alone, potentially not even requiring an outside source of Investiture. Now you might see why I think that the notion that Compounding gets all of its Investiture from Preservation is far from "explicitly obvious". Would you now agree? Ah, I see what is happening here. You are arguing against a point literally nobody is making. The extra energy in Compounding comes from Preservation. The Feruchemist stores Investiture into the Metalmind. They burn it and thus they get back not just what they stored into it, but also Investiture from Preservation, which they can then store back into the Metalmind. This is then repeated. Quote However, if the Feruchemist were also an Allomancer, he might be able to burn his own metal storages, releasing the energy within them tenfold. Mistress Vin tried to burn some of my metals earlier, but couldn't access the power. However, if you were able to make up the Feruchemical storages yourself, then burn them for the extra power... The Final Empire - Epilogue As stated here, it is a burning of ones own metalminds. Which takes your own energy from the Metalminds, and also energy from Preservation. This is then stored back into ones Metalminds, which is repeated. Nobody was trying to argue that Compounding is just energy from Preservation. Just that that is where the extra energy is derived. Which is something explicitly supported by the text and the WoBs. I am claiming that you are claiming that all Metallic Arts are completely of Ruin, using this quote as evidence for my claim: Quote Neither of the WoBs you cite say that compounding draws power from Preservation -- did you copy the wrong thing? Moreover, by the second one, if metalminds are generally filled with Ruin's Investiture, as I claim is likely, it tracks that compounding would draw the power from Ruin. As we know that the extra energy in Compounding is derived from mixing together Metalminds with Allomancy, with it coming from the Allomancy. Therefore, it would track that you are claiming that Allomancy takes in Ruinious Investiture instead of Preservation's Investiture. You also do agree that Hemalurgy is associated with Ruin. Therefore, it follows that you believe all three Metallic Arts to be of Ruin. It simply follows from the arguments that you are making. Evidence for it being powered by Allomancy: Quote Brandon Sanderson All right, so there are a few things you have to understand about cosmere magics to grok all of this. First, is that magics can be hacked together. You'll see more of this in the future of the cosmere, but an early one is the hack here--where you're essentially powering Feruchemy with Allomancy. (A little more complex than that, but it seems like you get the idea.) Quote However, if the Feruchemist were also an Allomancer, he might be able to burn his own metal storages, releasing the energy within them tenfold. Mistress Vin tried to burn some of my metals earlier, but couldn't access the power. However, if you were able to make up the Feruchemical storages yourself, then burn them for the extra power... The Final Empire - Epilogue Quote Allomancy, obviously, is of Preservation. The rational mind will see this. For, in the case of Allomancy, net power is gained. It is provided by an external source--Preservation's own body. Hero of Ages - Chapter 32 - Epigraph Thus, Compounding gains power from Allomancy, Allomancy is drawing power from Preservation, therefore Compounding gains power from Preservation. As it is axiomatic that for a, b, c ∈ X, if a R b and b R c, then a R c. That is simply saying that if element a is related to element b in a certain way, and element b is related to element c in the same manner, than it logically follows that elements a and c share that relation. (R defines a relationship, and ∈ means "is a member of...", such as how n ∈ ℝ means a number n which is a member of the Set of Real Numbers). You could make an argument that the relationship is not transitive, that is to say, the relationship between the elements within the given domain of discourse does not display the transitive property. I would argue that it is transitive. Due to the fact that the relationship given does make logical sense and fits with given evidence and observations. The concept of drawing from something is thus able to be thought of as retaining the transitive property. An example where this also holds transitivity, a Spike draws power from a victim, and a recipient draws power from the spike. Therefore, the recipient draws power from the Spiritweb. If this is not the case, that would mean that the recipient gains power from something else that the Spike did not draw upon. We could also try to make an assumption that it is not true, to do a proof by contradiction like how one can prove the irrationality of the square root of 2 by assuming it is rational. a R b and b R c, then a ¬R c. This would mean that if one gains power from Allomancy, and Allomancy gains power from Preservation, one cannot, by logical extension, assume that one gains power from Preservation. Due to the fact stated by the b R c relation of "Allomancy is drawing power from Preservation", we can only assume that, due to the fact that a ¬R c, that b R c is false. Following from this, we have to redefine the element c, as c is not Preservation. We know that the Magic Systems on Scadrial are born from the interaction of the Shards with the Planet, and that Allomancy is indeed born from this interaction, that Allomancy must be related to one of the two Shards. Thus we arrive at the possible set {p,r}, but we have proven that c is not p. Thus it reduces the set to {r}, meaning that the source of Investiture for Allomancy would have to be Ruin. But the thing is, we know that Allomancy comes from Preservation, therefore, the fact that a ¬R c necessarily implies that b ¬R c, which proves that a ¬R c is false as it being true leads to a contradiction of the known facts. Therefore, either Compounding draws energy from Preservation, or Allomancy is of Ruin. You claim that Compounding draws from Ruin, which fits up perfectly with the second possibility. But I feel that at this point, we should not simply look at he logical implications that arise from the assumption that Compounding draws from Ruin, but also look at the evidence in order to decide on the probability of the two possibilities. Which I have already cited above, showing that Allomancy definitively draws from Preservation. (not fully related, but it would also have weirdness of like, why Lerasium, the body of Preservation, gives you Ruin's Invested Art, but also strongly Connects you Preservation.) In summary, we do not claim that all Investiture in Compounding comes from Preservation, and we never claimed that, if we did we misspoke, as that is a blatant falsehood. What we did say, however, is that the excess energy one gets from Compounding comes from Preservation, as it is gained through Allomancy, which draws from Preservation. And on Feruchemy not being fully End-Neutral, yeah, I agree. It is supported by Brandon, and I also thought up the theory myself as a way to explain away a few ways that it could potentially break physics. Like a headcanon that some of the energy in an Iron Metalmind is converted into potential energy, in order to make up for the way you can cheat Potential energy by reducing mass, going up, and then increasing it. I believe that a bit of your energy would go into making up for Potential Energy, thus you do not create energy out of nothing. Lets say a Twinborn is 60kg, and lets do a baseline of 1m for height. It would be 294.1995 J, then lets say they half their mass and go up to 50 metres, thus it would rise to 14709.98 J. But at their full mass it would be 29419.95 J, thus they would create 14709.97 J. I believe that this 14710 J is actually provided by the energy in the Metalmind. Which consequently means one wouldn't reach the exact mass as a little would be used up to make up for this. But the difference would be inconsequential, this instance it would be 163.6705 picograms of lost mass, or 0.000000000000164 kg. But I guess that is 98,564,660,133,926 atomic mass units, : P. I guess I could try to do an infinite series to find an exact value that would lead to the potential energy and mass lining up exactly, as technically that loss of 0.000000000000164 will change the value, but it would be by such an absolutely miniscule amount I would be measuring in femptojoules. But it is late and I am not in the mood, the change would also be too miniscule to matter. In fact, the fact it is this miniscule, and due to the fact you would have to find an Iron Ferring that has some ability to raise themselves up. I.e, a Crasher, of which there are only 3 ever. And the fact their tools aren't that advanced. It makes perfect sense that they wouldn't have the technology to detect a difference of 163 picograms. Thus they think everything is okay. PS: I apologize if I come off as aggressive, I am just passionate and can be rather blunt and I do not mean to hurt any feelings. I really do hope this all cleared it up for you. Edited September 5, 2023 by Firesong 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted September 5, 2023 Report Share Posted September 5, 2023 (edited) 8 hours ago, MistbornMathematician said: This, first and foremost, strongly implies that Allomantically burning any invested metal draws power from the Investiture in the metal (if that Investiture is available, of course). No. Not any invested metal - god metals only. Metalminds aren't invested enough. They work as a keyhole for investiture to go through, changing what the power from Preservation does. Spoiler Andrew The Great (paraphrased) What would happen if a person were to burn a metal that was Feruchemically charged using Allomancy? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) The metal used in Allomancy is like a key or a doorway to the power that Allomancy actually uses. The metal acts as a filter, much as the Aons in Elantris do, to determine what the power actually does. However, if the metal is Feruchemically charged, then it will basically become a super-burst of Feruchemical power with no Allomantic effect. The Feruchemical charge acts as a filter as well as the metal, and changes what the power does. in this case, say you were burning steel, you would just be massively speedy for a second, and wouldn't actually have the ability to push on anything Allomantically. Hope that answered the question. I get the concept, so if you need me to explain it differently, let me know and I'll try. Oh, the other thing I forgot is that this concept only works if it's a metal that you charged yourself. If it's a metal someone else charged, it would just work like regular Allomancy, and the Feruchemical charge would just cease to exist. Andrew The Great (paraphrased) If someone aluminum or duralumin burned the Feruchemically charged metals, what would happen? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) Basically the same thing as above, except with aluminum. Aluminum, they would just go away. Idaho Falls Signing (June 20, 2009) 8 hours ago, MistbornMathematician said: uses that Investiture as "fuel" during the Compounding process. No it doesn't. How can you get 10x the attribute if you're using only the attribute you had in metalmind? Where is this extra energy coming from? Think about it. That's not what compounding is doing. You're cherry picking WoBs that fit your idea, while ignoring those which are in conflict with it. I've given you WoBs about mechanism of compounding, explaining what this investiture in metalmind is actually doing - it isn't used as a fuel for compounding, only as a keyhole, for fuel to come fully from Preservation. You still get this investiture in metalminds back to you, yes (as burning Awaken metal gives those Breaths back to you if they are yours - WoB), but you also get much more from Preservation fueling Allomancy. That's where 90% of investiture is coming from, from Preservation, rest is released from metalminds. 8 hours ago, MistbornMathematician said: we determine that a fully-filled metalmind is a highly invested object. Not even close to a Shardblade. The Bands of Mourning weren't even as invested as a Shardblade and they contained a ton of investiture. Keep in mind metalminds are burned, it takes time to burn them all, they don't release all energy at once. If compounding gave you only the investiture trapped in a metalmind, burning it would give you the same amount of attribute which you store, not 10x more. Spoiler Questioner You've said that Shardblades can be made in other magic systems. So if it's not like a Shardblade from Roshar, what makes it a Shardblade? Brandon Sanderson The "Shard" refers to the heavy Investiture of a Shard of Adonalsium. Most of what you’ll see will see are the Roshar ones, but it is technically possible to make them out of the other magic systems. It's going to be a heavily invested magical weapon, is kind of how I would define it. Questioner So are the Bands [of Mourning] one? Brandon Sanderson I would not call them one, but they are close. They're not Invested enough. Calamity Austin signing (Feb. 25, 2016) Spoiler Questioner I've got a list of various Cosmere bits of metal and I was wondering if you would rank them from like one to ten or just easy to difficult on how hard it would be to steelpush on them. So with one being just a regular coin, ten being like when the Lord Ruler was moving bits of glass on the floor, so like metal inside a person's body. Brandon Sanderson It depends on how strong the Investiture in them is. Questioner Is that gonna be the answer for all of these? Brandon Sanderson Probably! Questioner How about a spike charged with Hemalurgy? Brandon Sanderson A spike charged with Hemalurgy... that depends on... Questioner Not in a person. Brandon Sanderson Depends on how strong, yeah, a spike is moderately, (in the realm of these kinds of things) moderately easy to push on because a spike does not rip off very much Investiture. Only enough to short circuit the soul, and less it over time. I would put that at the bottom, with the top being very hard, to be one of the easier things. Questioner How about a metalmind that is full? Brandon Sanderson That is full? That is going to be middle of the realm of the, yeah. Generally easier than, for instance, a Shardblade which is going to be very hard. Questioner #2 A Shardblade is [inaudible] actually metal? [metal]-ish? Brandon Sanderson Ish. Is Lerasium a metal? Yeah. Questioner So that'd be the same for Shardplate too? Brandon Sanderson Shardplate and Blade are very hard. Blade is probably gonna be a little harder. Questioner A Half-shard? Brandon Sanderson A Half-shard shield? That's gonna be moderate. Questioner Nightblood? I imagine that being hard. Brandon Sanderson Hard, of all the things you've listed, that is going to be the hardest. Far beyond even a Sharblade. Questioner Far beyond metal inside a person? Brandon Sanderson Uh, yes. Depending on how invested the person is. Questioner If somebody was invested as much as Nightblood? Brandon Sanderson Yes, for instance the God King, right. At the end with all those Breaths. Pushing something inside of him, getting through all of that? Gonna be real hard. Average person on Scadrial? You've seen how hard that is. A drab? Much easier. Questioner That was my next one, or no, sorry not a drab. A lifeless? Brandon Sanderson A Lifeless, yeah. Even... yeah. Lifeless are kind of weird because they've had their soul leave but then they've had a replacement stuck in in the form of Breath which leaves them in a very weird position compared to a drab which has had part of their Investiture ripped away but a majority remains, so, anyways. I'm going to give you one more. Pick your favorite. Questioner A soulstamped piece of metal? Brandon Sanderson A soulstamped piece of metal is going to be on the lower, easier side. Not a lot of Investiture going on in a soulstamp. Salt Lake City signing (March 29, 2014) 8 hours ago, MistbornMathematician said: Feruchemy does not appear to respect the Cosmere's conservation laws, due to the fact that it seems that metalminds contain more Investiture than corresponds with the actual effect. No, you misunderstand the mechanism of Feruchemy and compounding. A metalmind contains tiny amount of investiture. Compounding doesn't use that for fuel, but only uses it like an new Aen, it tells investiture coming from SR what shape to form, and it returns to you. Raw investiture like Dor is something very different from investiture in metalmind. Dor is a liquid investiture, it's very, very dense, so dense that it gives the effect you saw in TLM. But metalmind is just invested a little bit - not with liquid or gaseous investiture, but static one. A metalmind is not as invested as a jar of Dor. Investiture can't be created or destroyed, your idea of compounding breaks this law, as you somehow get more investiture from tiny bit of investiture. You can't get 10x investiture using only 1x investiture as a fuel. That doesn't work like that. 8 hours ago, MistbornMathematician said: Unless if things like taste, eyesight, hearing, determination, or other neurochemical attributes involve a shocking amount of energy in the Cosmere (as opposed to real life, where humans are incredibly energy efficient and our nerves, while generating a ton of voltage do not generate any amps), we essentially have two possibilities. Either the Investiture does come from inside the Feruchemist, or it does not. If it does, then the only reasonable assumption is that things like taste, eyesight, hearing, determination, and those other neurochemical attributes are in fact heavily invested. Taste, therefore, would be Investiture, and quite a bit of it. This seems, to me, to be unlikely. The alternative is that the Investiture comes from outside the Feruchemist, and exists as the means of of "encoding" the attribute into the metal. The most obvious comparison would be to how one can encode memories into Investiture. Or different attributes are converted into different amounts of investiture? Just like burning different metals is done by different rates as more energetic effects require more investiture. Less energetic attributes are turned into less investiture. So simple. Spoiler Brandon Sanderson The longest lasting of the Allomantic metals is actually copper, which is used by Smokers to hide Allomancy. Tin is second, however. Steel and Iron are actually rather quick, but since they're generally used in bursts, it's hard to notice. Both brass and zinc are medium, as is bronze. Pewter burns the fastest of the basic eight, though atium and gold both burn faster than it does. In my mind, it's related to how much 'work' the metal has to do. That's why pewter, steel, and iron burn so quickly. A lot of weight and power is getting thrown around, while copper only has to do something simple. However, I never really set any of these things hard-fast. And, only atium is really all that rare. Because of the value of the metals, the noble houses expended a lot of resources finding and exploiting mines to produce the metals. This resulted in a slightly higher value for most of them as opposed to our world, but not really noticeably so, because Allomancers really don't need that much metal. Even fast burning metals, like pewter, are generally only swallowed in very small amounts. (i.e. A small bit goes a long way.) TWG Posts (July 31, 2006) 8 hours ago, MistbornMathematician said: If we work under the assumption that the Feruchemist uses outside Investiture when they encode an attribute and releases that outside Investiture when they decode that attribute for use, You really misunderstood the WoB you've posted? Investiture coming from outside is used ONLY to transform physical attributes into investiture, and investiture back into physical attributes. Only for that. Even that WoB said: "Feruchemy, you are putting Investiture in from your own body" which breaks your whole line of reasoning. 8 hours ago, MistbornMathematician said: Now you might see why I think that the notion that Compounding gets all of its Investiture from Preservation is far from "explicitly obvious". Would you now agree? When you ignore all the evidence that says otherwise and cherry pick WoBs ignoring half of what was said in them that contradicts your idea, then sure. 8 hours ago, MistbornMathematician said: The foundation of our disagreement is based upon those "contradictions" -- a true contradiction, a disproof, is something rigorous. We have been discussing rigor for some time now, which is why I've tried desperately to establish definitions and such. You've claimed that Feruchemy is only of Ruin, which was disproved by books and WoBs, claimed that Allomancy is now of Ruin, which was disproved by WoBs and books, that Hemalurgy isn't invested art - again, disproven by logic using books and WoBs etc. Now you're claiming that investiture in metalminds comes from an external source - dispriven by the very WoB you've posted. No definitions are needed here when you're ignoring evidence. That's why is simply better to drop it as nothing I say will change your mind, and nothing you say will change mine. Edited September 5, 2023 by alder24 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MistbornMathematician Posted September 5, 2023 Author Report Share Posted September 5, 2023 14 hours ago, Firesong said: Ah, I see what is happening here. You are arguing against a point literally nobody is making. The extra energy in Compounding comes from Preservation. The Feruchemist stores Investiture into the Metalmind. They burn it and thus they get back not just what they stored into it, but also Investiture from Preservation, which they can then store back into the Metalmind. This is then repeated. No, my argument was that it is not a certainty that Compounding draws that energy from Preservation -- that there is no need for "extra energy". Yours is that it is a certainty. 14 hours ago, Firesong said: Therefore, it would track that you are claiming that Allomancy takes in Ruinious Investiture instead of Preservation's Investiture. You also do agree that Hemalurgy is associated with Ruin. Therefore, it follows that you believe all three Metallic Arts to be of Ruin. This is a very severe logical error. If an effect is gained through Allomancy, there is no global implication that it is fueled by the Shard that fuels Allomancy. The counterexample is, as previously stated, god metals and their alloys, which are fueled by their internal investiture. That is where this is wrong: 7 hours ago, alder24 said: No. Not any invested metal - god metals only. Metalminds aren't invested enough. That WoB directly states that god metals and their alloys are entirely internally fueled by the Investiture in the metal. This is strongly implied to be a result of the Investiture itself, which thus implies that any Invested metal would similarly be entirely or partially internally fueled. The existence of god metals and their alloys, though, is enough to contract your implication, much moreso than it just not being a true implication. Whenever constructing a proof, especially with logical notation, it is imperative that you remain consistent. For example, if attempting to show that a→b and b→c, giving you a→c, it is absolutely critical that your bs are equivalent. If they are not, then those implications are meaningless. We know for a fact that "you are burning an uninvested metal" → "you are drawing power from Preservation". You attempt to say that "you are burning a metal" → "you are drawing power from Preservation". This, from the text, would be neither confirmed nor contradicted, making its validity unclear. However, from the WoB, burning a god metal or its alloys do not, in fact, necessarily draw power from Preservation. Therefore, "you are burning a metal" /→ "you are drawing power from Preservation", leaving us with the only firm implication being "you are burning an uninvested metal" → "you are drawing power from Preservation". This causes your argument to fall apart as my claim, "you are burning an invested metal" → "you are drawing power from the metal, and not Preservation", therefore is not a contradiction as "you are burning an invested metal" \→ "you are burning a metal" and thus "you are burning a metal" \→ "you are drawing power from Preservation". Worth noting is, of course, there is also no confirmation that my implication is accurate, making its validity unclear. But my point is not that it is confirmed, as the existence of vaguely supporting evidence is not confirmation, rather that it is not contradicted, just as the existence of vaguely opposing evidence is not contradiction. I hope that makes sense. 14 hours ago, Firesong said: Like a headcanon that some of the energy in an Iron Metalmind is converted into potential energy, in order to make up for the way you can cheat Potential energy by reducing mass, going up, and then increasing it. I believe that a bit of your energy would go into making up for Potential Energy, thus you do not create energy out of nothing. Lets say a Twinborn is 60kg, and lets do a baseline of 1m for height. It would be 294.1995 J, then lets say they half their mass and go up to 50 metres, thus it would rise to 14709.98 J. But at their full mass it would be 29419.95 J, thus they would create 14709.97 J. I believe that this 14710 J is actually provided by the energy in the Metalmind. Which consequently means one wouldn't reach the exact mass as a little would be used up to make up for this. But the difference would be inconsequential, this instance it would be 163.6705 picograms of lost mass, or 0.000000000000164 kg. But I guess that is 98,564,660,133,926 atomic mass units, : P. I guess I could try to do an infinite series to find an exact value that would lead to the potential energy and mass lining up exactly, as technically that loss of 0.000000000000164 will change the value, but it would be by such an absolutely miniscule amount I would be measuring in femptojoules. But it is late and I am not in the mood, the change would also be too miniscule to matter. In fact, the fact it is this miniscule, and due to the fact you would have to find an Iron Ferring that has some ability to raise themselves up. I.e, a Crasher, of which there are only 3 ever. And the fact their tools aren't that advanced. It makes perfect sense that they wouldn't have the technology to detect a difference of 163 picograms. Thus they think everything is okay. Rather ironically, this is actually something I worked out as more justification for my "you are drawing in power from an external source to fuel Feruchemy" theory, then scrapped because I thought it was too long and confusing. It is certainly entirely possible that, as you suggest, both the energy and Investiture gained from Feruchemy is done through energy conversion from minuscule amounts of matter. My own calculations were similar to yours, though a little more generic. For reference: Here's what I came up with (assume all units are metric): Spoiler Take Wax, strip him naked, give him a metalmind weighing M, and put him on a massless platform, connected by a massless, frictionless, ideal rope and pulley to an identical platform with a weight on it. If Wax weighs W, and the weight weighs X, then at any point, his platform is experiencing a downward force due to gravity of (W+M)g, and the other platform is experiencing a downward force due to gravity of Xg. This means that the net force on his platform (assuming positive force is up) is T-(W+M)g, while the net force on the other platform is T-Xg, for tension on the rope T. Assume that (W+M) > X. Also assume, for now, that Investiture's weight in a metalmind is nonexistent or negligible. Also also assume that gravity is a constant and Wax is in a vacuum. The platforms begin at rest, and Wax puts p percent (decimal form) of his weight into his metalmind. Assume that (Wp+M) < X. First, we calculate the tension T. As X > (Wp+M), T = (Wp+M) (X-(Wp+M))/(X+(Wp+M)) g + (Wp+M) g. Quite nicely, this automatically gives us the acceleration of the system: (X-(Wp+M))/(X+(Wp+M))g for Wax, and -(X-(Wp+M))/(X+(Wp+M))g for the weight. After t seconds, Wax will have moved 0.5(X-(Wp+M))/(X+(Wp+M))gt^2 meters upward, and the weight will have moved an equal distance downward. He will also be moving at a velocity of (X-(Wp+M))/(X+(Wp+M))gt. If Wax now returns to normal weight, his acceleration will become ((W+M)-X)/(X+(W+M))g downward. He will come to rest after s seconds, when ((W+M)-X)/(X+(W+M))gs = (X-(Wp+M))/(X+(Wp+M))gt, which will be at s = (X+(W+M))(X-(Wp+M))/(X+(Wp+M))/((W+M)-X)t, and at this point will have travelled an additional (X-(Wp+M))/(X+(Wp+M))gts - 0.5((W+M)-X)/(X+(W+M))gs^2 meters, giving us a grand total of: D = 0.5(X-(Wp+M))/(X+(Wp+M))gt^2+(X-(Wp+M))/(X+(Wp+M))gts - 0.5((W+M)-X)/(X+(W+M))gs^2 meters traveled. You could simplify this further in order to calculate exactly how much work you can do if you completely fill a metalmind (assuming that the amount of weight you can store is proportional to the mass, and giving some weight-to-mass ratio) but it does somewhat break when you're traveling distances where the change in gravity becomes an issue or you're going at relativistic speeds. For small cases, though, it's a decent approximation. The important thing in this context, though, is the work done: as the platforms went from stationary to stationary, their kinetic energy didn't change, and so their change in potential energy is the only meaningful change. Wax's potential energy changed by D(W+M)g, while the weight's changed by -DXg, giving a total net gain in energy of D(W+M-X)g. You can play around with the values with this calculator: https://www.desmos.com/calculator/5gj2ygthkg if you want. With a fairly reasonable scenario (Wax weighs 70 kg, his metalmind weighs 0.1kg, and he goes to 10% weight for five seconds), you can get up to a thousand picograms of mass lost. I would also point out that, over the course of the theoretical experiment, he moved over a kilometer. You can do, pound-for-time, far better, but then I'm not confident at all that such an idealized experiment would give a reasonable approximation. If you assume that this mass conversion happens irrespective of any changing potential energy (so even if Wax wasn't getting pulled up by a rope mass would still be consumed), it still isn't good: it would take over 150 years to reduce a metalmind by a gram if you were at 10% weight for the entire duration. So, all in all, the notion of the excess energy (and potentially investiture) being created via consuming matter in the metalmind is reasonable -- I really didn't consider that we could be converting matter in my earlier posts, so it could absolutely be that. I thought it would be as efficient as Lift's matter-to-Investiture conversion, but there's nothing to say that what she does is in any way efficient or doesn't use the same nutrition-to-Investiture thing that Feruchemy can allow for. I'd say it also fits much better with the WoBs that say Feruchemy's power is derived entirely internally, and it's not even incompatible with Compounding deriving its power from the metalmind's Investiture. Since my suggestion that Feruchemy uses large amounts of external Investiture in order to store the power relies upon an interpretation of numerous WoBs as only saying that the "stored" power of Feruchemy need be derived internally, not necessarily the "storing" power, I have to therefore admit that your suggestion is more likely than mine even if it feels less thematic to me. Both are possible, of course, but yours is consistent with even the strictest interpretations of those WoBs. 9 hours ago, alder24 said: I've given you WoBs about mechanism of compounding, explaining what this investiture in metalmind is actually doing - it isn't used as a fuel for compounding, only as a keyhole, for fuel to come fully from Preservation. Those WoBs say, explicitly, that Allomancy overcharges the Feruchemical process in Compounding and that normal Allomancy uses Preservation's power. As stated above, this is not a direct implication. 9 hours ago, alder24 said: yes (as burning Awaken metal gives those Breaths back to you if they are yours - WoB) That WoB seems a bit questionable. Going with this one would likely be better: Spoiler Questioner What would happen if an Allomancer burned Awakened metal? Brandon Sanderson Oh boy, we start right with the really hard ones. So, it would be very difficult to do, and other than that it's going to depend on who the Breaths are keyed to with Identity. Footnote: followed-up by this Warsaw signing (March 18, 2017) as it seems a bit inconsistent with the supposed followup. 9 hours ago, alder24 said: Where is this extra energy coming from? Think about it. That's not what compounding is doing 9 hours ago, alder24 said: If compounding gave you only the investiture trapped in a metalmind, burning it would give you the same amount of attribute which you store, not 10x more. 9 hours ago, alder24 said: Investiture can't be created or destroyed, your idea of compounding breaks this law, as you somehow get more investiture from tiny bit of investiture. You can't get 10x investiture using only 1x investiture as a fuel. That doesn't work like that. These quotes make me quite concerned, given that metalminds having additional Investiture pulled from an external source was the core point of my post. 9 hours ago, alder24 said: Not even close to a Shardblade. 9 hours ago, alder24 said: A metalmind contains tiny amount of investiture. These quotes also make me quite concerned, given that according to a WoB you yourself posted Spoiler Questioner You've said that Shardblades can be made in other magic systems. So if it's not like a Shardblade from Roshar, what makes it a Shardblade? Brandon Sanderson The "Shard" refers to the heavy Investiture of a Shard of Adonalsium. Most of what you’ll see will see are the Roshar ones, but it is technically possible to make them out of the other magic systems. It's going to be a heavily invested magical weapon, is kind of how I would define it. Questioner So are the Bands [of Mourning] one? Brandon Sanderson I would not call them one, but they are close. They're not Invested enough. Calamity Austin signing (Feb. 25, 2016) and the Bands of Mourning was simply a full metalmind, and by the very nature of being full it was "close" to being considered a shard, which does seem to imply that unless shardblades are extremely far away from the threshold of being a shard and that threshold requires, as you put it, a "tiny amount of investiture", a full metalmind is indeed relatively close to a shardblade and icontains a lot of Investiture. On 9/3/2023 at 9:22 PM, Firesong said: Furthermore, Alder is not disproven by WoBs on Rosharan Magic systems. I will admit that me calling it "disproven" was something of a dig at Alder's standards of proof and disproof. Lifebinding being an entirely new magic system on Roshar would be quite the shock, given that it has never been so much as alluded to by anything or anyone. I would imagine it would count as a "major" system, yet things like this Spoiler Questioner How many magic systems are in The Stormlight Archive, and how many of them haven't been seen? Brandon Sanderson I would say the only major one you haven’t seen is Voidbinding, it depends on how you count them. I count fabrials as one, Surgebinding as one, and Voidbinding as one. And then the Old Magic is kind of its own weird thing. really seem to discount it as a probability. Saying Lifebinding exists and is entirely different from Fabrials and Old Magic would require an interpretation far, far more liberal than any I made to claim things like Feruchemy being of Ruin or Compounding requiring no external energy. On 9/4/2023 at 6:58 AM, alder24 said: Ishar was able to manipulate connections on Ashyn, which wasn't Surgebinding, but people on Roshar would call it that. Do we have confirmation that the surges on Roshar did not exist on Ashyn prior to Ishar getting his Honorblade? All I can find are WoBs stating the exact opposite. Spoiler Shardbound Were the Surges used by humans, the ones that destroyed their previous home, the same as the ones that the Radiants are using. Brandon Sanderson Yes, same basic principles. Magic system slightly different. Same basic principles. Oathbringer London signing (Nov. 28, 2017) Spoiler Ryan Like how Bondsmiths have stronger versions of their Surges, is it possible to have stronger versions of the other Surges, as well? Brandon Sanderson Yes. This is what happened to Ashyn. You can have some very dangerous manipulation of Surges. Waterstones RoW Release Event (Nov. 18, 2020) The closest I can find to something which remotely agrees with you is this Spoiler Argent In the Syl interlude in Rhythm of War, she is speaking with Dalinar about his powers and the things those powers have done in the past. And what she says is "a Bondsmith bound other Surges". First of all, what other Surges? Brandon Sanderson One potential interpretation for you on this, remember they use Surge and spren sometimes interchangeably in-world. Just making you aware of that. Argent Yeah I'm aware of that. Bound other Surges.... Argent Then the term Bondsmith. To me it seems like she's talking about Ishar and the Ashyn stuff. So would they use Bondsmith to describe him in that place? Brandon Sanderson That might be what she's talking about. I'm not guaranteeing it. Brandon Sanderson So one other thing to keep aware of in the cosmere - for instance they call "Lightweaving" any illusion-based magic working on the same fundamentals. And so you could argue - and people will use it that way in-world - that Bondsmithing is both an order [of Knights Radiant] and a power that exists outside the order. Argent And that would be maybe the power of Connection, the way Lightweaving is the power of illusion? Brandon Sanderson Yes. And for instance, there were not Elsecallers to get people between Ashyn and Roshar, but on Roshar they would explain what happened there as Elsecalling. Does that make sense? Argent I mean, as much as these things make sense, yes. JordanCon 2021 (July 17, 2021) But even then, it is entirely consistent with Elsecalling, as the surge of transportation, being the more-or-less the same (just less controlled), while Elsecallers (the Radiants, which only existed post-Ishar) didn't exist yet. Honor bound the surges, limiting their uses, and Ishar made the Radiants, limiting their users. On 9/4/2023 at 6:58 AM, alder24 said: Old Magic isn't [based on a bond] We have absolutely no idea if that's true or not. On 9/4/2023 at 6:58 AM, alder24 said: Why can there be only 16 invested arts for a Shard? What if Adonalsium was Shattered into more than 16 Shards? It was possible: One might immediately conjecture that doing so would have had incredible ramifications, including allowing more than 16 invested arts. If the Shattering produced, say, 32 shards, perhaps there would be 32 Allomantic metals. 10 hours ago, alder24 said: Or different attributes are converted into different amounts of investiture? Just like burning different metals is done by different rates as more energetic effects require more investiture. Less energetic attributes are turned into less investiture. So simple. That is indeed entirely possible. Moreover, I'd even go so far as to call it likely. However, some of these "less energetic attributes" were known to fill or almost-fill metalminds, such as with Sazed's tin rings, meaning that, once again, we're not talking about tiny, insignificant amounts of Investiture. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firesong Posted September 5, 2023 Report Share Posted September 5, 2023 1 hour ago, MistbornMathematician said: No, my argument was that it is not a certainty that Compounding draws that energy from Preservation -- that there is no need for "extra energy". Yours is that it is a certainty. This is a very severe logical error. If an effect is gained through Allomancy, there is no global implication that it is fueled by the Shard that fuels Allomancy. The counterexample is, as previously stated, god metals and their alloys, which are fueled by their internal investiture. That is where this is wrong: That WoB directly states that god metals and their alloys are entirely internally fueled by the Investiture in the metal. This is strongly implied to be a result of the Investiture itself, which thus implies that any Invested metal would similarly be entirely or partially internally fueled. The existence of god metals and their alloys, though, is enough to contract your implication, much moreso than it just not being a true implication. Whenever constructing a proof, especially with logical notation, it is imperative that you remain consistent. For example, if attempting to show that a→b and b→c, giving you a→c, it is absolutely critical that your bs are equivalent. If they are not, then those implications are meaningless. We know for a fact that "you are burning an uninvested metal" → "you are drawing power from Preservation". You attempt to say that "you are burning a metal" → "you are drawing power from Preservation". This, from the text, would be neither confirmed nor contradicted, making its validity unclear. However, from the WoB, burning a god metal or its alloys do not, in fact, necessarily draw power from Preservation. Therefore, "you are burning a metal" /→ "you are drawing power from Preservation", leaving us with the only firm implication being "you are burning an uninvested metal" → "you are drawing power from Preservation". This causes your argument to fall apart as my claim, "you are burning an invested metal" → "you are drawing power from the metal, and not Preservation", therefore is not a contradiction as "you are burning an invested metal" \→ "you are burning a metal" and thus "you are burning a metal" \→ "you are drawing power from Preservation". Worth noting is, of course, there is also no confirmation that my implication is accurate, making its validity unclear. But my point is not that it is confirmed, as the existence of vaguely supporting evidence is not confirmation, rather that it is not contradicted, just as the existence of vaguely opposing evidence is not contradiction. I hope that makes sense. I feel you misunderstand what a God Metal is. The reason God Metals work as they do is that they are literally made out of Investiture. You are using the Investiture that they are made of. Quote Kaimipono Allomancy is fueled by Preservation's body? How exactly does that work? And how does that interact with Atium—it's fueled by both gods' bodies? Brandon Sanderson The powers of Ruin and Preservation are Shards of Adonalsium, pieces of the power of creation itself. Allomancy, Hemalurgy, Feruchemy are manifestations of this power in mortal form, the ability to touch the powers of creation and use them. These metallic powers are how people's physical forms interpret the use of the Shard, though it's not the only possible way they could be interpreted or used. It's what the genetics and Realmatic interactions of Scadrial allow for, and has to do with the Spiritual, the Cognitive, and the Physical Realms. Condensed 'essence' of these godly powers can act as super-fuel for Allomancy, Feruchemy, or really any of the powers. The form of that super fuel is important. In liquid form it's most potent, in gas form it's able to fuel Allomancy as if working as a metal. In physical form it is rigid and does one specific thing. In the case of atium, it allows sight into the future. In the case of concentrated Preservation, it gives one a permanent connection to the mists and the powers of creation. (I.e., it makes them an Allomancer.) So when a person is burning metals, they aren't using Preservation's body as a fuel so to speak—though they are tapping into the powers of creation just slightly. When Vin burns the mists, however, she'd doing just that—using the essence of Preservation, the Shard of Adonalsium itself—to fuel Allomancy. Doing this, however, rips 'troughs' through her body. It's like forcing far too much pressure through a very small, fragile hose. That much power eventually vaporizes the corporeal host, which is acting as the block and forcing the power into a single type of conduit (Allomancy) and frees it to be more expansive. The Investiture you gain is the Investiture that the God Metal is made out of. That is why it works the way it does. Metalminds are not made of Investiture, they are Invested, but they are not Investiture. They are normal metal that has Investiture put into it by the Feruchemist. When you burn them, you are drawing your own Investiture from it, along with using it as a gateway to Preservation to pull in more Investiture. This is due to the fact that, outside of the fact you get back the trait you stored into the Metalmind, it is simply normal Allomancy. Thus, my argument does remain consistent as you are not burning a God Metal, you are burning a standard allomantically viable metal. It is little different from burning pewter without compounding, just with an extra boost from what you stored into it. So I do believe that my b's are equivalent, as God Metals are irrelevant to this conversation. Quote Chaos Is atium Invested? Brandon Sanderson Is atium Invested? Atium is Investiture distilled into the Physical Realm, right? So is electricity electric? Or is it-- Here he essentially says that calling a God Metal Invested is a bit misleading, due to the fact it is Investiture. Quote Trae Cooper (paraphrased) Why are Invested objects like metalminds and Hemalurgic spikes able to be Pushed and Pulled on, but Shardblades and Shardplate, which are also invested, are not susceptible to Pushing and Pulling? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) There were a few concepts that he outlined in answering this question. 1.) The ability to Push/Pull an Invested object is predicated to the amount/power of the Investiture. 2.) Further, Invested objects also gain resistance to pulling/pushing based on proximity to soul possibly via the soul. An example given is that a Hemalurgic spike touches the blood of the person, and from there is now part of both the Spiritual Realm and the Physical Realm. This provides what Brandon termed a kind of "soul interference," based on its proximity to the soul. Here, he refers to things such as Hemalurgic Spikes (and by extension Metalminds), as being Invested. Ultimately, we can tell that Compounding is drawing on an outside source, that being Preservation. Instead of being purely from the metal itself and nothing else. If you want to assume that you are drawing extra Investiture from it as if you are burning a God Metal, you have to ask where that Investiture is coming from. You could say it comes from converting the mass directly into Investiture and using a larger portion of it, but that wouldn't be the case as that would also apply to normal Allomancy. Thus you would essentially be left with only the idea of it acting as a gateway to Preservation. I can see why you made the mistake, but it is fundamentally a mistake that is acting as the foundation of this argument. Also, I feel you would need more evidence to say that every single book is wrong and that Brandon is wrong about his own system. You are refuting both completely and utterly. Which I feel would need a far more extensively cited argument, but it also kind of inherently cannot be proven as you are stating that the books and Brandon are wrong and cannot be trusted. So we can't really move forward at all as you have already dismissed both primary sources as incorrect and as being invalid evidence. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted September 5, 2023 Report Share Posted September 5, 2023 (edited) 2 hours ago, MistbornMathematician said: That WoB directly states that god metals and their alloys are entirely internally fueled by the Investiture in the metal. This is strongly implied to be a result of the Investiture itself, which thus implies that any Invested metal would similarly be entirely or partially internally fueled. Metalmind isn't nearly as invested as god metal and can't be. God metal is a mini black hole, transcending all 3 realms at once - invested metalmind isn't. A god metal is a pure essence of a Shard, an invested metalmind isn't. A god metal is physical, solid state of investiture, invested metalmind isn't. A god metal is a body of a Shard, invested metalmind isn't. God metals aren't comparable to simple invested metalminds, because investiture in metalminds isn't the pure essence of a Shard. Spoiler Chaos Is atium Invested? Brandon Sanderson Is atium Invested? Atium is Investiture distilled into the Physical Realm, right? So is electricity electric? Or is it-- Chaos Well I think the question Sharders had was if it's Invested, how can people Push and Pull on it. That was the struggle. Brandon Sanderson Atium breaks a lot of rules, in the same way that you will see other things break rules. Atium plays weirdly. When you get distilled Investiture, you're starting like-- My kind of rule for myself is it's kind of like when you start going on the quantum level, the rules just start playing weirdly. Because it's like, what Realm does atium exist in-- is another thing. Because-- Pure Investiture like that is like a mini black hole, right? It's like existing in three Realms at once. Kind of, and things like that... There's lots of weirdness. The writerly answer is there is lots of weirdness because when I built atium, I didn't have the rest of the cosmere built, right? And so it breaks a lot of rules that I later set up that everything else has to follow, right? So the writerly answer is we just have to accept that atium and lerasium and some of these other distilled Investiture things are going to play very weirdly with the magic systems. But that's okay. Nightblood will too, and some of these things that were built even after the cosmere was coming together. Salt Lake City signing (Dec. 16, 2017) Invested material is in no way comparable to a god metal when it comes to compounding. And there isn't enough investiture in a metalmind for compounding - if you store 50% of your weight forn 1h, you have 1h of attribute in your metalmind in the form of investiture. No more. Period. Brandon times and times again explains that Feruchemy is end-neutral - what you put in, you're getting back, nothing from an external source is stored in your metalmind (it's only used for transferring attributes into investiture and back, but this isn't stored in a metalmind). Laws of Cosmere prohibits you from making 10h of 50% weight from 1h of 50% weight - you can't create investiture or energy. Period. But this is what you want to do. This energy you want doesn't exist. Allomancy is powering it, because you're drawing the power from Preservation directly. Brandon explained it so many times it's crazy, go read WoBs, like this one, read it please: Spoiler Questioner As far as the Lord Ruler goes, how did he use the Twinborn thing? Feruchemy and Allomancy? Brandon Sanderson What he had to figure out how to do is: Allomancy is powered by Spiritual power directly from the Shard of Adonalsium. Whereas Feruchemy is powered by your own Investiture and effort being transferred into the thing. What he needed to do was figure out a way to power Feruchemy with Allomantic power, right? You could have done the same thing by fueling it with the Dor, or with Stormlight, or another external. But he only had access to three magics. So what he had to do was figure out that. So what he's doing is, he's basically taking metals, (since he's a Feruchemist and an allomancers), and he is burning metals that he has Invested himself, but then using... basically, switching it so he gets a burst of Allomantic power that is charged with a Feruchemical attribute. So it's powering Feruchemy with Allomancy by burning the metal that he himself has Invested. Questioner So he was essentially putting stuff into the metal? Brandon Sanderson Basically, priming the pump. He puts it in with Feruchemy. Then he burns it with Allomancy. But that fuels Feruchemy with Allomancy, which allows him to draw on the powers of the Shards, rather than himself. So it's not really a perpetual motion machine, because he's drawing the power from someone else. But it's external, which allows him to break the rules of Feruchemy. The big question I have is: that works in the book, because you can dig into the technicalities of the book. But that's not gonna work in the movie, right? That explanation right there, that's so many levels over the heads of the audience. So I have to figure out a way to not break the cosmere magic, but make it simpler to understand in the movie. Which is the big headache in writing the screenplay. That's probably the biggest challenge in the screenplay is to figure out how to make that all work. LTUE 2020 (Feb. 15, 2020) This proves that Feruchemy isn't powered by an external source but by your own investiture (it's internal and end-neutral), Allomancy draws from the Shard (the Shard means Preservation per books and other WoBs previously quoted here), and compounding is powered by that Shard (keep in mind, this WoB talks about how Rashek used compounding, and he was mainly compounding Atium - this might draw from Ruin, or more likely from the metal itself (still the essence of Ruin) - in the case of Atium the power will come from Ruin's essence trapped in the form of god metal, and that's why it's Shards in the WoB). 2 hours ago, MistbornMathematician said: With a fairly reasonable scenario (Wax weighs 70 kg, his metalmind weighs 0.1kg, and he goes to 10% weight for five seconds), you can get up to a thousand picograms of mass lost. There is a Feruchemical genetic decay present, just like Allomantic genetic decay - power gets weaker with every generation, it's not precisely 1:1, but really close to it - this might explain the loss: Spoiler Yoonseo Chang Looking at Allomancy, you've mentioned that over time the power dilutes and each ability becomes less powerful. (for example a Tineye in Era 2 will generally be less powerful than one in Era 1) Does the same effect happen in Feruchemy as well? How would Feruchemy become less pure or diluted (other than Ferrings appearing)? Brandon Sanderson I have not gone as far with Feruchemy in that regard. I would say that if you're going to get a weakening of Feruchemy, which you're asking about, is the amount of stored attribute you get for lost attribute. There is decay there, you don't get a 1:1. Feruchemy generally I would say is not much weaker than it was before, a little bit but not much. This was done partially for narrative reasons. I wanted Allomancy... I wanted to back off a little on Allomancy and tell stories with it a little bit weaker. Again, mostly narrative reasons at this point. At this point on Scadrial, it's weakened about as much as it's going to because by this point people are having children that are more powerful because of the certain mixing. I'm not saying it's going up, I'm saying they have hit an equilibrium on Scadrial for the most part, at least in the Basin. YouTube Spoiler Stream 2 (June 3, 2021) 2 hours ago, MistbornMathematician said: Those WoBs say, explicitly, that Allomancy overcharges the Feruchemical process in Compounding and that normal Allomancy uses Preservation's power. As stated above, this is not a direct implication. At this moment I'm not really sure if you purposefully misunderstood WoBs or not. Metal is a filter for the power coming from Preservation, a Feruchemical charge overwrites that filter and acts as a new filter for the power: "The metal acts as a filter, much as the Aons in Elantris do, to determine what the power actually does. [...] The Feruchemical charge acts as a filter as well as the metal, and changes what the power does." The second WoB said: "So you can actually use the power that usually fuels Allomancy, to fuel Feruchemy." There is only one power that usually fuels Allomancy - Preservation himself. This statement is a definite proof that you're wrong. You've just shown that you haven't even read those WoBs I've given you. You're cherry picking statements from WoBs that fit your theory, ignoring all those contradicting it. 2 hours ago, MistbornMathematician said: That WoB seems a bit questionable. Going with this one would likely be better: Hide contents Questioner What would happen if an Allomancer burned Awakened metal? Brandon Sanderson Oh boy, we start right with the really hard ones. So, it would be very difficult to do, and other than that it's going to depend on who the Breaths are keyed to with Identity. Footnote: followed-up by this Warsaw signing (March 18, 2017) as it seems a bit inconsistent with the supposed followup. No inconsistency here. Brandon said that it's going to depend on who the Breaths are keyed to, nothing more. The WoB I gave asked about Misborn burning a metal that he Awakened - so the Breaths are keyed to him, and that's why Brandon said Breaths will return to him. It's fully consistent with this WoB. 2 hours ago, MistbornMathematician said: These quotes make me quite concerned, given that metalminds having additional Investiture pulled from an external source was the core point of my post. Which I've disproven in every post. This additional investiture is only used to power transformation of attributes into investiture - that's what the WoB said. I will be repeating the same thing said in that WoB over and over again. Investiture in metalminds comes fully from your body, not any external source. Books and multiple WoBs are the proof. 2 hours ago, MistbornMathematician said: and the Bands of Mourning was simply a full metalmind, and by the very nature of being full it was "close" to being considered a shard, which does seem to imply that unless shardblades are extremely far away from the threshold of being a shard and that threshold requires, as you put it, a "tiny amount of investiture", a full metalmind is indeed relatively close to a shardblade and icontains a lot of Investiture. Being very close isn't the same as being a Shard. The Bands aren't a Shard, they aren't as invested as a Shard. On top of that they are 16 metalminds combined and they are still not a Shard. A full metalmind is at least 16x further away from being a Shard than the Bands (unless Bands were filled with something like Mists as some theorize, which would place the Bands ridiculously further away from a normal metalmind). And again, you're ignoring another WoB I've given to you, where Brandon said that a full metalmind is moderately hard to steelpush (which means moderately invested), while a Shardblade is very hard to push (very highly invested). Another WoB said that Scadrial is a low invested world compared to Roshar, meaning people deal with little investiture on Scadrial, unlike on Roshar. And to actually steelpush a Shardblade, you need to wield the full power of the Well of Ascension - Wax can push some metalminds, more invested ones can still be pushed with duralumin. So a metalmind is very, very far away from a Shardblade. Spoiler Trae Cooper (paraphrased) Why are Invested objects like metalminds and Hemalurgic spikes able to be Pushed and Pulled on, but Shardblades and Shardplate, which are also invested, are not susceptible to Pushing and Pulling? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) There were a few concepts that he outlined in answering this question. 1.) The ability to Push/Pull an Invested object is predicated to the amount/power of the Investiture. 2.) Further, Invested objects also gain resistance to pulling/pushing based on proximity to soul possibly via the soul. An example given is that a Hemalurgic spike touches the blood of the person, and from there is now part of both the Spiritual Realm and the Physical Realm. This provides what Brandon termed a kind of "soul interference," based on its proximity to the soul. This further explains why Vin required more than normal power to Push/Pull the metalminds from the Lord Ruler, because of their proximity to his soul, via the Spiritual Realm. 3.) The amount of Investiture is relatively low on Scadrial, whereas worlds like Sel and Roshar are pushing around "high power" according to Brandon. I interpreted this to mean that Hemalurgic spikes and metalminds have low amounts of Investiture compared to Shardplate and Shardblades. Brandon said that theoretically you can Push/Pull Shardblades and Shardplates but you would need to wield an incredible amount of power. One example he gave that could so such as a thing is that if you were a Mistborn wielding the full power of the Well of Ascension, you could Push/Pull Shardblades/Plate. DragonCon 2012 (Sept. 4, 2012) Spoiler tskyeguye From Rysn's observations in the epilogue, it seems like she has a lot of the same aspects of a Fifth Heightening/Returned at the least. Is this because her Dawnshard is particularly connected to Endowment or because the effects of a certain level of Investment result in similar effects? Brandon Sanderson The latter. Skrimyt Interesting. So are actively Surgebinding Radiants or metal-burning Allomancers just not Invested enough to gain those passive effects, or do they not experience perfect pitch/color/etc. because their Investiture is just not as tightly bound to their Spiritweb as Endowment's Breaths or a Dawnshard would be? Brandon Sanderson Be aware that the two groups you mention don't generally hold much Investiture themselves, at least not in large quantities over time. More in Surgebinding. Almost none in Allomancy. But RAFO to specifics. Dawnshard Annotations Reddit Q&A (Nov. 6, 2020) So if Allomancers hold "almost none investiture", how much would a metalmind hold when they can push it with their "almost none investiture"? There is less power in a metalmind than what Allomancer can draw from Preservation when burning metals. That's why compounding is utilizing that power of Preservation, because metalmind on its own can't provide 10x the amount of investiture it holds. 2 hours ago, MistbornMathematician said: I would imagine it would count as a "major" system, yet things like this Reveal hidden contents Questioner How many magic systems are in The Stormlight Archive, and how many of them haven't been seen? Brandon Sanderson I would say the only major one you haven’t seen is Voidbinding, it depends on how you count them. I count fabrials as one, Surgebinding as one, and Voidbinding as one. And then the Old Magic is kind of its own weird thing. really seem to discount it as a probability. There are dozens of WoBs about the amount of magic systems on Roshar, in most of them Brandon says how hard it is to define a magic system on Roshar, as it isn't that clear like it is on Scadrial. No, this one WoB is in no way definite, when there are dozens of others, especially the one saying "we haven't seen Cultivation's magic except for the Old Magic". WoBs are contradictory at best. 2 hours ago, MistbornMathematician said: Do we have confirmation that the surges on Roshar did not exist on Ashyn prior to Ishar getting his Honorblade? All I can find are WoBs stating the exact opposite. Reveal hidden contents Shardbound Were the Surges used by humans, the ones that destroyed their previous home, the same as the ones that the Radiants are using. Brandon Sanderson Yes, same basic principles. Magic system slightly different. Same basic principles. Oathbringer London signing (Nov. 28, 2017) Reveal hidden contents Ryan Like how Bondsmiths have stronger versions of their Surges, is it possible to have stronger versions of the other Surges, as well? Brandon Sanderson Yes. This is what happened to Ashyn. You can have some very dangerous manipulation of Surges. Waterstones RoW Release Event (Nov. 18, 2020) The closest I can find to something which remotely agrees with you is this Reveal hidden contents Argent In the Syl interlude in Rhythm of War, she is speaking with Dalinar about his powers and the things those powers have done in the past. And what she says is "a Bondsmith bound other Surges". First of all, what other Surges? Brandon Sanderson One potential interpretation for you on this, remember they use Surge and spren sometimes interchangeably in-world. Just making you aware of that. Argent Yeah I'm aware of that. Bound other Surges.... Argent Then the term Bondsmith. To me it seems like she's talking about Ishar and the Ashyn stuff. So would they use Bondsmith to describe him in that place? Brandon Sanderson That might be what she's talking about. I'm not guaranteeing it. Brandon Sanderson So one other thing to keep aware of in the cosmere - for instance they call "Lightweaving" any illusion-based magic working on the same fundamentals. And so you could argue - and people will use it that way in-world - that Bondsmithing is both an order [of Knights Radiant] and a power that exists outside the order. Argent And that would be maybe the power of Connection, the way Lightweaving is the power of illusion? Brandon Sanderson Yes. And for instance, there were not Elsecallers to get people between Ashyn and Roshar, but on Roshar they would explain what happened there as Elsecalling. Does that make sense? Argent I mean, as much as these things make sense, yes. JordanCon 2021 (July 17, 2021) But even then, it is entirely consistent with Elsecalling, as the surge of transportation, being the more-or-less the same (just less controlled), while Elsecallers (the Radiants, which only existed post-Ishar) didn't exist yet. Honor bound the surges, limiting their uses, and Ishar made the Radiants, limiting their users. Surge is a word that means powers of creation. Surges on Roshar are manifestations of what people percive to be fundamental forces. Transportation can be done by many invested arts, and all of them work on the same principles. I don't really understand what you want to say here. Spoiler Kimbobhi Is it possible to Surgebind using gaseous Investiture other than Roshar's? Brandon Sanderson So here's the thing. It depends on your definition of Surgebinding. Surgebinding would be the Rosharan definition of all of the magics. They would call the Metallic Arts Surgebinding. You are binding the powers of creation, which the word "Surge" is that word translated from Rosharan into English, that's what the word means in Rosharan, is the powers of creation. The fundamental forces which inspired me to make this. So they would consider all of them to be Surgebinding. And that's just what you're doing, you are binding and using those powers. Other people, including Khriss, would not agree with that definition. They would say: Surgebinding is specifically binding, through the Nahel bond, the spren, the specific manifestations of Investiture on Roshar, by using specific sets of oaths in order to gain access to those powers. So she would say: no, that is not Surgebinding when someone uses Allomancy. I would lean with her on that one, but the other one's a viable definition. What you're really asking is, can someone, one of the Rosharan, the Knightly Radiant Orders, could they power that with a different form of Investiture from a different planet? And yes, this is possible, though there might be some difficulties in making it work, which I haven't explained entirely yet. But yes, this is possible. In fact, it is possible to power all of the different magics with the different forms of Investiture. That is a possibility This is one of the reasons why Mraize and Thaidakar are so interested in Stormlight. Because if you could get Stormlight off, and you can crack that... just way easier to get Stormlight than it is to get the other ones. Like Breath, you could consider easy, but hard to morally harvest; in fact, perhaps impossible. If you want ethical, sustainable magic, then Roshar is a much better bet than some of the other places that you could... Adam Horne Does that mean Mraize and [Thaidakar] want an ethically sustainable...? Brandon Sanderson They're really interested in the sustainable part. I would say that they both would say "yes" to that question. They would consider their actions to be, on an ethical spectrum, at least in the neutral area, perhaps. Others would disagree with that. Adam Horne Where would they fall, philosophically speaking, like Kantianism, or? Brandon Sanderson I'd have to think about that. That's a good question. Certainly not as far on the utilitarianism side as someone like Taravangian, who's about as far as you can go. But Jasnah is pretty far on that side, also. Though she considers her version more of a "what is the greatest good I can do with any action I take?" (Which one is that? It's not Kantian, but you know what I mean.) That is a little on the utilitarian side. Not a little, that's... not as far as Taravangian, but that's definitely, yeah. They would maybe be in between those two, maybe. Depends. They're not the same individual, they would have different lines. There's gonna be (let's just say) future books that explore Thaidakar's relationship with that. But you have seen in other books the lengths that Thaidakar is willing to take in order to achieve his goals. He is not far off from Taravangian in some of those things that he has done. YouTube Spoiler Stream 1 (Dec. 17, 2020) Spoiler Argent Spren grant control over surges because surges are perceived as fundamental powers on Roshar. Would other Cognitive beings grant different powers based on what they perceive to be fundamental? Such as electromagnetism is on Earth? Brandon Sanderson It is plausible, although this was set up in a specific way. Argent By Honor or Adonalsium? Brandon Sanderson RAFO on that. Set up might be the wrong word. There were seeds that caused this to happen the way it did. Argent The Surgebinding thing? Brandon Sanderson Yes, specifically... Those influenced what people perceived as fundamental forces. JordanCon 2018 (April 22, 2018) 2 hours ago, MistbornMathematician said: However, some of these "less energetic attributes" were known to fill or almost-fill metalminds, such as with Sazed's tin rings, meaning that, once again, we're not talking about tiny, insignificant amounts of Investiture. He stored all senses in his tin rings, and he did that every other day - and they were only rings, not bracers - rings were small and would carry less than what's in bracers. That wasn't not a lot when he stored them so often. And I didn't say that's tiny. Edit: If this feels too aggressive, it wasn't my intention, sorry. We really should just stop it. If this doesn't convince you, I don't think anything but a direct conversation with Brandon won't convince you. You keep ignoring books and WoBs that tell you time and time again that Feruchemy is powered by your body, not an external source, or that Allomancy is powered by Preservation, or what compounding is doing and what role has investiture in burnt metalmind etc. There is really no point in continuing this discussion if you keep dismissing all those WoBs and sources from books. I fear it will get too heated. Now we're talking about the amount of investiture in the Bands and full metalmind, which in no way is connected to the original topic and I fear we will keep disagreeing on every detail. That's why it's better to agree to disagree and drop this. Edited September 5, 2023 by alder24 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firesong Posted September 5, 2023 Report Share Posted September 5, 2023 51 minutes ago, alder24 said: He stored all senses in his tin rings, and he did that every other day - and they were only rings, not bracers - rings were small and would carry less than what's in bracers. That wasn't not a lot when he stored them so often. And I didn't say that's tiny. And on this part, we don't really fully understand Metalminds in the case of how much one can fit into it. We know about limits to how much you can store at a time (as in, how much you can actively store, like, you can't store 100% of an attribute, outside of more discrete ones like individual memories). But like, we don't know how much you can store in total. Especially given the fact we know that Investiture can have different densities, so it could be possible that two Metalminds of the same size, both "full", can have different amounts of an attribute due to the Feruchemist knowing how to store it in a far denser manner. That is actually how I see the Bands of Mourning, Kelsier and the South Scadrians found a way to make the Investiture stupidly dense. So that it would be able to store more than a normal metalmind of its mass. And as stated, it is also sixteen metalminds which are thought of as one object as they are physically connected, not truly one metalmind. It would be like how like, The Collective Works of HP Lovecraft (combined into one book) is thought of as one thing due to physical connection, but it is still multiple separate stories. And yeah, we should drop this whole argument. Stormlight Spoilers: Spoiler This actually made me think of what it would be like if you split a Metalmind into two pieces like a Spanreed, would it be spiritually connected like them? What would happen if you try to use Raysium to move attributes from one metalmind to another metalmind of a different metal? Can Raysium be used to steal from a metalmind that isn't yours? A lot of questions. Hmmm... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MistbornMathematician Posted September 6, 2023 Author Report Share Posted September 6, 2023 3 hours ago, Firesong said: I feel you misunderstand what a God Metal is. The reason God Metals work as they do is that they are literally made out of Investiture. You are using the Investiture that they are made of. Firstly, this is not stated as the reason, or even remotely implied. Secondly, alloys of god metals work the same way, proving that burning an object that isn't pure Investiture can indeed cause the power to be sourced directly, though of course the base metal is alloyed with pure Investiture here. You even have agreed that if you Compound, you use the Investiture in the metalmind as part of your fuel: 3 hours ago, Firesong said: This is due to the fact that, outside of the fact you get back the trait you stored into the Metalmind, it is simply normal Allomancy. Thus, my argument does remain consistent as you are not burning a God Metal, you are burning a standard allomantically viable metal. It is little different from burning pewter without compounding, just with an extra boost from what you stored into it. You state that you believe that you do get back Investiture from the metalmind. You state that you are not saying that all of the Investiture from Compounding comes from Preservation. But here you are attempting to equate it with a circumstance where it does all come from Preservation! I apologize for the insult, but given that you state the difference in one sentence and then claim it doesn't exist in the next, saying "So I do believe that my b's are equivalent", I really do not understand how you are coming up with this. You are directly saying that there is a difference before saying that there is no difference in the next sentence. Perhaps an argument could be made that the difference is insignificant, but that is absolutely impossible when the entire purpose of the distinction is to say that Compounding uses Investiture which is not of Preservation, a fact which, I must remind you again, you say you agree with and that nobody is disagreeing with. I claim that Compounding draws Investiture from the metalmind. You claim that Compounding draws Investiture from the metalmind. I conjecture that the Investiture in the metalmind is attached to Ruin, and that Compounding only draws Investiture from the metalmind. You then, for some inexplicable reason, with statements that contradict each other quite literally from one sentence to the next, declare that there is some implication from this that normal Allomancy draws Investiture only from Ruin. Just to hammer it into the ground and ensure that there is no conceivable way that this misrepresentation of my argument could possibly continue in good faith: We agree that burning an uninvested metal draws 100% of its investiture from Preservation. We agree that burning a metalmind draws 100-N% of its investiture from Preservation, and N% from the metalmind itself. I conjecture that this N% is 100%, and that investiture in a metalmind is of Ruin. This implies that burning a metalmind draws 100% of its investiture from Ruin. This does not imply that burning an uninvested metal draws 100% of its investiture from Ruin. This does not imply that the investiture in a metalmind would show up when burning an uninvested metal. This does not imply that Investiture of Preservation is no longer used when burning an uninvested metal. Put another way: We agree that the pool of Investiture inside a metalmind is entirely divorced from the reservoir of Preservation's Investiture that normal Allomancy draws from. I conjecture that this pool of Investiture is all that is used when Compounding. I conjecture that this pool of Investiture is entirely of Ruin. Therefore, I conjecture that the Investiture which is used when Compounding is entirely of Ruin. If this pool of Investiture was entirely of Preservation, I would thus say that the Investiture which is used when Compounding is entirely of Preservation. If this pool of Investiture was of Ruin but it only made up half of the Investiture used when Compounding, I would thus say that the Investiture used when Compounding is half of Preservation and half of Ruin. At no point do I ever conjecture that the reservoir of Preservation's Investiture that normal Allomancy draws from is a metalmind. At no point do I ever conjecture that the reservoir of Preservation's Investiture that normal Allomancy draws from is ever not of Preservation. At no point do I ever conjecture that Investiture from metalminds is ever used when burning an uninvested metal. At no point do I ever conjecture that any Investiture from Ruin is ever used when burning an uninvested metal. And yet you claim, repeatedly, that I have. I will say that I have only skimmed the other two posts at this point, so I apologize if I missed a spot where Alder corrected you, but I feel as if some extra redundancy would be warranted anyways. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronald12234554gbd Posted September 6, 2023 Report Share Posted September 6, 2023 Hi, I agree that they work because they are made from an attachment and that when you burn them you are using the attachment they are made from. But I don't think this is the only possibility. Alloy of God Metals work the same, even if they aren't made from pure investment. In the end, I think the answer to this question is not clear cut. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted September 6, 2023 Report Share Posted September 6, 2023 6 hours ago, MistbornMathematician said: Secondly, alloys of god metals work the same way, proving that burning an object that isn't pure Investiture can indeed cause the power to be sourced directly Alloys of god metals aren't simply invested, they are still a body of a Shard, they aren't like invested objects, they are like a god metal, a pure investiture only mixed with base metal. That's why the power comes from it. The WoB Firesong gave in his post is the most important explanation about the nature of god metals: "Condensed 'essence' of these godly powers can act as super-fuel for Allomancy, Feruchemy, or really any of the powers. The form of that super fuel is important. In liquid form it's most potent, in gas form it's able to fuel Allomancy as if working as a metal. In physical form it is rigid and does one specific thing. In the case of atium, it allows sight into the future." Invested metalminds have no such super-fuel in them, as they aren't essences of gods. That's why a god metal (and its alloys) does what it does, because it's the nature of god metals. Invested metals aren't like that. They aren't fuel for Allomancy. You can't get 10x more investiture just from investiture that is in metalmind - you can't create investiture out of nothing, and that's what you're doing with this claim. There isn't enough investiture in metalmind to give you 10x more attribute on its own. This extra investiture must come from somwehere, and that's where Allomancy comes from, as you're burning a metalmind, allomantically. Investiture in compounding comes mainly from Preservation, but the bit in metalmind returns to you too. 6 hours ago, MistbornMathematician said: I conjecture that the Investiture in the metalmind is attached to Ruin Why? It draws power from your own body, as numerous sources from books and WoBs are proving, so it's of both Ruin and Preservation as that's what makes up your soul. Plus Feruchemy is a bit more of Preservation than Ruin, so why would investiture in metalmind be fully of Ruin? Spoiler Questioner What is Feruchemy, is it tied to any Shard? Brandon Sanderson Feruchemy, is it tied to any Shard in specific? Yes, they talk about that in the books. Questioner Ok, it's like, of Preservation? Brandon Sanderson Yes, you could say that. Brandon Sanderson Because it seems like one Shard, one magic system? Brandon Sanderson Here's the thing, it's more that-- They, in their philosophy, say that it's kind of a hybrid between the two, but you could kind of feel that it's more-- Questioner It seems more Preservation. Brandon Sanderson It seems more Preservation, but in-world they think it's kind of a hybrid. The philosophy says that one was kind of net-positive, one was kind of net-negative and one was a hybrid. That's their in-world philosophy. I personally would place it more with Preservation. Questioner Ok so more than one magic system can be tied to one Shard? Brandon Sanderson Yes. Questioner Ok, that's what I wanted to know. Brandon Sanderson Here's the thing, the definition of magic system can be, is so fluid. Like you can look at this book and say "how many magic systems are there?". Is Surgebinding one or is it ten? Questioner Allomancy's 16-- Brandon Sanderson Is Allomancy 16 or one, and things like that. So yes multiple magic systems can be tied to a Shard. Firefight San Francisco signing (Jan. 17, 2015) 6 hours ago, MistbornMathematician said: I conjecture that this N% is 100%, and that investiture in a metalmind is of Ruin. Which is wrong. WoBs and books disprove this and you have no source backing this up. There are multiple WoBs that state that compounding is powered by Allomancy, by the same power as Allomancy is powered: "So you can actually use the power that usually fuels Allomancy, to fuel Feruchemy." This is the definite proof that compounding doesn't use 100% of the investiture in metalminds, instead it uses the same power that fuels Allomancy - which is Preservation. 6 hours ago, MistbornMathematician said: At no point do I ever conjecture that the reservoir of Preservation's Investiture that normal Allomancy draws from is a metalmind. At no point do I ever conjecture that the reservoir of Preservation's Investiture that normal Allomancy draws from is ever not of Preservation. At no point do I ever conjecture that Investiture from metalminds is ever used when burning an uninvested metal. At no point do I ever conjecture that any Investiture from Ruin is ever used when burning an uninvested metal. And yet you claim, repeatedly, that I have. I have no idea where this is coming from. 6 hours ago, MistbornMathematician said: I will say that I have only skimmed the other two posts at this point Oh, from here. Please, just read them all carefully before responding, paying extra attention to WoBs as they explain everything. All your assumptions about Feruchemy and compounding are wrong, that's why you came to wrong conclusions. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MistbornMathematician Posted September 6, 2023 Author Report Share Posted September 6, 2023 9 hours ago, ronald12234554gbd said: In the end, I think the answer to this question is not clear cut. I agree completely. 8 hours ago, alder24 said: I have no idea where this is coming from. From On 9/3/2023 at 9:22 PM, Firesong said: Therefore, what you are now arguing, is that Allomancy, Hemalurgy, and Feruchemy are all 100% ruin. On 9/4/2023 at 10:45 PM, Firesong said: I am claiming that you are claiming that all Metallic Arts are completely of Ruin, using this quote as evidence for my claim: On 9/4/2023 at 10:45 PM, Firesong said: As we know that the extra energy in Compounding is derived from mixing together Metalminds with Allomancy, with it coming from the Allomancy. Therefore, it would track that you are claiming that Allomancy takes in Ruinious Investiture instead of Preservation's Investiture. You also do agree that Hemalurgy is associated with Ruin. Therefore, it follows that you believe all three Metallic Arts to be of Ruin. On 9/5/2023 at 5:25 AM, alder24 said: You've claimed that Feruchemy is only of Ruin, which was disproved by books and WoBs, claimed that Allomancy is now of Ruin, which was disproved by WoBs and books, that Hemalurgy isn't invested art - again, disproven by logic using books and WoBs etc. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted September 6, 2023 Report Share Posted September 6, 2023 9 minutes ago, MistbornMathematician said: From Maybe you should read the all of her posts again, as she explains the logic of it very well - you're own claims are to blame, as you can't have "compounding fueled by Ruin" and WoBs on "Allomancy powering compounding" at the same time - you can't ignore those WoBs, but that's what you're doing this whole time. If both your claims are true, then it would mean that Allomancy draws from Ruin in your theory - which isn't true, that's why she explained it that way, as only your claims can be wrong. That's how Firesong explained how illogical are your claims, because those are the consequences of your own claims.But we have proof of the opposite from WoBs and books. Read this page again, pay special attention to all those WoBs we gave you, because your claims and the WoBs can't be true at the same time, because consequences of it contradicts other WoBs and quotes from books. No reply to "So you can actually use the power that usually fuels Allomancy, to fuel Feruchemy?" Why? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firesong Posted September 6, 2023 Report Share Posted September 6, 2023 1 hour ago, alder24 said: Maybe you should read the all of her posts again, as she explains the logic of it very well - you're own claims are to blame, as you can't have "compounding fueled by Ruin" and WoBs on "Allomancy powering compounding" at the same time - you can't ignore those WoBs, but that's what you're doing this whole time. If both your claims are true, then it would mean that Allomancy draws from Ruin in your theory - which isn't true, that's why she explained it that way, as only your claims can be wrong. That's how Firesong explained how illogical are your claims, because those are the consequences of your own claims.But we have proof of the opposite from WoBs and books. Read this page again, pay special attention to all those WoBs we gave you, because your claims and the WoBs can't be true at the same time, because consequences of it contradicts other WoBs and quotes from books. No reply to "So you can actually use the power that usually fuels Allomancy, to fuel Feruchemy?" Why? One thing I do agree on is about Hemalurgy being very weird amongst Invested Arts. I still think that it is an Invested Art, but I do agree with them that it is strange amongst them. Due to the fact that it doesn't require you to use your own Investiture, but uses the Investiture from within the victim. So I disagree with the conclusion, but the premise is right, it is indeed strange amongst them. And also, to both of you, we are definitely not going to be getting anywhere. As the evidence we are providing is not convincing you, and this is a massive tangent from the topic of the thread. To go back to the topic of the thread itself. I do disagree with the idea of each Shard having 16 Invested Arts. As Alder has brought up, we know that Preservation has 32, basically. Ruin would also have 32. As you have 16 Allomancy, 16 Feruchemy, and 16 Hemalurgy. With them both having the Feruchemical arts. Brandon has stated there are not 10 Surges, as 10 is important to Roshar, and Invested Arts are heavily influced by the interaction between a Shard and a planet. Quote Questioner I'm just curious, there are 16 Allomantic metals, 16 Feruchemical metals, there are 16 Shards of Adonalsium. Are there 16 surges? Brandon Sanderson No. Questioner So there's no correlation? Brandon Sanderson 10 is an important number on Roshar. While 16 is very important in the cosmere in general. It appearing in the Metallic Arts isn't really indicative of that, it instead comes from Preservation (and likely Ruin) being deeply tied to 16. My fan theory is that it is due to Scadrial being made up of their own essence. (different from God Metals, so my theory is they used their Investiture, converted it into energy, and than converted that energy into mass. Thus it was I > E > M, not the I > M of GMs) But I can't exactly prove this. I am not sure how this would apply to systems such as Awakening, as Awakening is just one system that is far more open-ended, less module and organized. So it is harder to actually try and divide it up and count it. On the topic of Triple God Metal Alloys. We simply don't have enough information to guess what would happen, we have only seen 3 God Metal Alloys (or 13, depending on how you count them), these being Malatium, Atium + Electrum, and Shardblades. Technically Malatium might be a triple alloy, but the Atium could have been refined and purified, and then the pure atium is mixed with the gold. Shardblades are technically 10 different alloys, with different amounts of Honor and Cultivation. But we don't seen any notable changes in properties, so I count them as 1 alloy in terms of how they function cosmerologically. It might be relevant in Era 3 as Brandon said he plans to go into God Metal Alloys in Era 3. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MistbornMathematician Posted September 6, 2023 Author Report Share Posted September 6, 2023 1 hour ago, Firesong said: As the evidence we are providing is not convincing you I do have high standards of proof and disproof, since those notions are of absolute, demonstrable certainty. To that end, the evidence is insufficient, except regarding Ruin and Preservation swapping Invested Arts, which was indeed disproven. 2 hours ago, Firesong said: My fan theory is that it is due to Scadrial being made up of their own essence. (different from God Metals, so my theory is they used their Investiture, converted it into energy, and than converted that energy into mass. Thus it was I > E > M, not the I > M of GMs) But I can't exactly prove this. I don't think this is is necessary -- material would be more easily gathered from the star and Investing a planet is something Shards can just do if they want, as seen with Autonomy's invasion. There is also the innate Connection of making or shaping something, which is a powerful one. 2 hours ago, Firesong said: Shardblades are technically 10 different alloys, with different amounts of Honor and Cultivation. But we don't seen any notable changes in properties, so I count them as 1 alloy in terms of how they function cosmerologically. Agreed. I also believe that it is likely one particular kind of Shardblade will have precisely the "ideal" mixture. 3 hours ago, alder24 said: she explains the logic of it very well - you're own claims are to blame, as you can't have "compounding fueled by Ruin" and WoBs on "Allomancy powering compounding" at the same time - you can't ignore those WoBs, but that's what you're doing this whole time. If both your claims are true, then it would mean that Allomancy draws from Ruin in your theory - which isn't true, that's why she explained it that way, as only your claims can be wrong I am very sorry, but I cannot rationalize this kind of statement with any kind of good-faith discussion. I can think of no other explanation than an attempt at deliberate misrepresentation, which is extremely saddening given that you are clearly passionate about the subject. You deliberately assume a contradiction, then say "oh look, a contradiction", and continue to do this despite being informed that you are doing so. It is like seeing a statement of "x = sqrt(9)", hearing someone say "there's some evidence that x = -3, and that statement could be interpreted in a way that allows x to be negative", then promptly declaring "well x = 3 so you think 3 = -3". I'm sorry, but despite my attempts at good faith, this is clearly not a good faith discussion. So I'll not engage with it further, beyond saying that 3 hours ago, alder24 said: No reply to "So you can actually use the power that usually fuels Allomancy, to fuel Feruchemy?" Why? can be interpreted as being a reference to the internal power that Allomancers have, not an external source, though it is a significant stretch. That statement represents the single most convincing piece of evidence against Compounding not drawing Investiture solely from the metalmind that you or Firesong have come up with so far, and by a significant margin. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firesong Posted September 7, 2023 Report Share Posted September 7, 2023 (edited) 4 hours ago, MistbornMathematician said: I do have high standards of proof and disproof, since those notions are of absolute, demonstrable certainty. To that end, the evidence is insufficient, except regarding Ruin and Preservation swapping Invested Arts, which was indeed disproven. This is a lie. You only have high standards of disproof, you have shown no high standards for proof. As you have yet to provide sufficient evidence for your own idea, and assume it so apodictically true that we can only possibly disagree if we misinterpret it. It is very much a double standard, you provide little evidence, whilst expecting such absurd levels of evidence from us that even explicit statements are not sufficient. To be honest, it feels like an argumentum ob obstinatum mixed with moving the goalpost. And then when we don't agree, you resort to ad hominid claims that we are arguing in bad faith solely due to the fact we do not agree with your claims. I have seen no evidence to convince me that Brandon and the Books are both incorrect about how the systems work, such extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, extraordinary evidence that you have failed to provide. We will be willing to question our own position if you are to provide convincing evidence for your point, that just, so far, as not been happening. To such an extent that it seems that you have provided no evidence for your claim, and simply, as I said before, take it as apodictic. Argumentum ad populum is a fallacy, but we are not giving into argumentum ad populum (you could accuse us of argumentum ad verecundiam, but in this case, the authority is actually an undeniably valid source of information), instead we are making a logical assumption from all of the evidence provided. I feel also that you are not treating our claims with the same respect and consideration we are treating yours. I am taking in your claims and going over all of the implications of the claim, and what they would suggest. Yes, I am also giving evidence that disproves it, but I am still looking at how it would all work and seeing if it does work. I feel you are not providing us the same care, and are simply rejecting our evidence outright. Please, just try actually giving evidence for your claims. Furthermore, you now seem like you just wish to argue. As you are actively ignoring any and all requests to drop this subject. It is quite bothersome, and to be perfectly honest it is starting to annoy me, so I apologize if my tone is getting more frustrated. Edited September 7, 2023 by Firesong 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MistbornMathematician Posted September 7, 2023 Author Report Share Posted September 7, 2023 13 hours ago, Firesong said: This is a lie. You only have high standards of disproof, you have shown no high standards for proof. As you have yet to provide sufficient evidence for your own idea, and assume it so apodictically true that we can only possibly disagree if we misinterpret it. This statement exhibits a fundamental misunderstanding of logic so profound that it, again, seems manufactured. Never, at any point, have I claimed that my idea is proven or true. I have only claimed that it is not disproven and not false. The fact that you are claiming to not understand this makes it very clear to me that you too are not acting in good faith, so I will also cease responding to you in this matter as well. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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