MistbornMathematician Posted August 31, 2023 Report Share Posted August 31, 2023 (edited) The question of "what does Lerasium actually do" is one of the greater mysteries surrounding god metals, but we do actually have quite a bit of information. Let's start with God Metals in general. Spoiler mail-mi We know that any person can burn lerasium. Are there other God Metals that any person can burn? Brandon Sanderson Yes. Dragonsteel Mini-Con 2021 (Nov. 22, 2021) Lerasium can be burned by anyone (or perhaps, more likely, any Scadrian/person with a Connection to Preservation), and some (though not all) God Metals have a similar property. Spoiler word_thief What would happen if a Mistborn ingested the metal of a Shardblade/Plate? Brandon Sanderson A Shardblade is Invested. A Mistborn isn't likely to have a tie to that type of Investiture. So probably nothing would happen… General Twitter 2013 (Oct. 24, 2013) Any Allomancer can burn Lerasium, and any Scadrian Allomancer could burn Atium as well given their Connection to that Investiture. With some Connection though, well, any God Metal is open game. Spoiler Dave Smith Can a Mistborn burn any god metal such as tanavastium? Brandon Sanderson Yes they could. YouTube Spoiler Stream 2 (June 3, 2021) But here's the interesting bit: Spoiler Stormlightning If Hoid was to get his hands on "bavadinium," could he alloy it with lerasium and get Sand Mastery? Brandon Sanderson This is theoretically possible. FanX 2018 (Sept. 6, 2018) Alloys of Lerasium with another God Metal, when burned, may grant access to other Shards' invested arts. Given what Lerasium does by itself (gives access to Preservation's invested art), and how alloys with base metals and Lerasium make a non-allomancer a Misting, and how an Allomancer burning Lerasium or a base metal-alloy of Lerasium will become stronger in their Allomancy or in the corresponding metal, I believe this is enough to make a case for the following: A non-Allomancer burning an alloy of Lerasium with another God Metal gains access to the entirety of that shard's invested art or becomes more powerful with it, with potency corresponding to the amount of Lerasium burned. Without another God Metal, Lerasium defaults to Preservation. A non-Allomancer burning an alloy of Lerasium with another God Metal and a base metal gains access to the entirety of that shard's...what? Here's where I drop a wild conjecture: each and every shard has precisely 16 invested arts that they can work with and shape. They correspond to the base metals. Some, like Preservation, have their 16 all as part of one big invested art. Some, like Honor, do not appear to put all of their eggs in one basket. Shards may collaborate with each other on these arts, like Honor and Cultivation with nine of the ten surges, though this seems to allow other shards the ability to meddle with them as well, such as Odium. Comparisons to how having a cracked spiritweb allows shardic influence abound here. It may also possible for some of these 16 invested arts to be bound together into larger, more potent abilities, such as how Bondsmiths can use Adhesion in ways that Windrunners cannot, manipulating Connection directly. I also here posit that Bavadin's sixteen arts developed their own autonomy, being her sixteen additional personalities/avatars, each associated with a completely unique invested art. Perhaps this is why Brandon has a soft spot for her, since her arts are not only unique, but have their own personalities as well. The fact that she was turning Telsin into an avatar does imply that all 16 aren't currently incarnated in the Cosmere, and thus all sixteen invested arts likely aren't present, but the Sand Lord/Sand Mastery, Patji/Aviar, and Telsin/the weird mind expansion thing she had seem to confirm this, as well as the likelihood that an avatar of Autonomy on the Darkside of Taldain is the incarnation and/or source of Starmarks. Finally, Odium has ten Voidbinding arts, and I believe it is likely that the other six are represented among the Unmade. Comparisons to the seven deadly sins aside, several of the Unmade have very similar "powers". Ashertmarn and Nergaoul, for example. I'd put money on the ten kinds of Voidbinding and the nine powers of the unmade resolving quite easily into sixteen distinct invested arts. Shards may each have particular "numbers", but I believe they all have sixteen parts. Notably, this means that burning pure Lerasium and Trellium could give you some very unpredictable invested arts, as some of them likely are completely unknown to anyone but Bavadin herself. As such, I believe that the triple-alloy effect is: A non-Allomancer burning an alloy of Lerasium with another God Metal and a base metal gains access to the entirety of that shard's invested art corresponding to that metal, or becomes more powerful with it, with potency corresponding to the amount of Lerasium burned. Without another God Metal, Lerasium defaults to Preservation. But that is all, according to Brandon, one big side effect. An Allomancer burning any of these alloys would get this affect, and something else. Spoiler Brandon Sanderson Chapter Thirty-Eight Preservation's Power All right, so maybe I lied about there only being three magic systems in this book. It comes down to how you term the powers of Preservation and Ruin, who kind of blanket the entire system. There are a lot of things going on here, and—well, the truth is I don't want to mention all of them, for fear of spoiling future books. However, I'll give you a few rules to apply. First, to these forces, energy and mass are the same thing. So, their power can take physical shape—as Preservation's did in the bead of metal Elend ate. Second, there is a bit of Preservation inside of all the people—and it's this that allows the people to perform Allomancy. It needs to be awakened and stirred to be of use, but when it is, a proper metal can draw forth more of Preservation's power. It's like the metal attunes the bit within the person, allowing it to act as a catalyst to grab more power. Allomancy is not fueled by metal; it is fueled by Preservation. The metal is the means by which a person can access that fuel, however. If there were another way to access it, then the metal wouldn't be needed. Preservation's touch on people differs. Some have more, some have less. This doesn't make them better or worse people—indeed, some most touched by Preservation have been among the worst people in the world. As Ruin later points out, there is a difference between being evil and being destructive. Regardless, if a person can get more Preservation into them, they become better Allomancers. Hence Elend becoming a Mistborn. Like all people, he had the potential within him—it was just too small of a potential to be awakened through normal means. That little jolt of Preservation's body, however, expanded and awakened his Allomancy. As a tidbit, that was a side effect of what that bead of metal did. It wasn't the main purpose of the bead, and if another Allomancer were to burn it, it would do something else. The Hero of Ages Annotations (Nov. 12, 2009) I strongly believe that this effect is in forging a Connection. The side effect is becoming Invested by that Connection because you're using Investiture to Connect directly to a shard, the predominant effect is in creating that original Connection, and the actual purpose of the alloys is to act as a tuning fork. An Allomancer burning Lerasium could direct this Connection to anything they want, with Allomantic power corresponding to greater control and variability, with alloys focusing this Connection more directly where the Allomancer wants. Bondsmiths appear way better at taking existing Connections, sensing them, and moving them around, but this would be an excellent route for making strong Connections in the first place. It's possible that directing the Connection this way would lessen the invested art-boosting effect, since you're not Connecting as much to a shard, but it's also possible that all you need is some Connection for the invested art to get granted or boosted, and the rest of it can be spent Connecting to whatever you want. Applications could be things like Connecting to a shard in order to become a better Vessel for it, Connecting to a person to see insights into their past, super-long-range intercontinental ballistic bonding to any spren (imagine burning some Lerasium and Koravellium, then forging a truly unbreakable bond to the Nightwatcher), messing with Selish invested arts, finding or tracking anyone or anything (iron and Edglium to track Nightblood, perhaps?), making a Luhel bond with anything at any time, or even potentially stuff like forging Connections with the dead, stealing Dawnshards, and re-forming splintered Shards with yourself as their Vessel by becoming highly Connected to them. It also seems that when you're very highly Invested, you get some kind of intuitive use of your invested arts, such as with the Tenth Heightening -- perhaps that is accomplished through Connection and as such you can get a deep, intuitive understanding of an art through this method. In short, just as Cosmere-breaking as pure Atium's grand future-sight. But there's one question left: what's Feruchemy? Ruin's art is Hemalurgy, right? I say no. Hemalurgy is not an invested art. It requires no Investiture to use, just Intent. It is literally a byproduct of Ruin's existence. Instead, I say Ruin's invested art is actually Feruchemy. Burning an alloy of Atium and Lerasium would make someone a Feruchemist, and adding a base metal would make you a Ferring. Some might protest, saying that Feruchemy doesn't fit Ruin, but Allomancy doesn't actually fit Preservation either! Allomancy involves burning a metal away, Ruining it. Feruchemy takes something and locks it in a metalmind, Preserving it. And so I'll finish with an incredibly bold and (aside from the above, and the Terris people's name coming from their word for Preservation) totally unsubstantiated proposal: Preservation's original art was Feruchemy, Ruin's was Allomancy, and they swapped them, possibly in an attempt to curb their Shard's Intent's influence on their minds. I'm not convinced by this nearly to the same degree as the above Lerasium use or the 16 invested arts per Shard, but I think it's a definite possibility. Edited August 31, 2023 by MistbornMathematician spoilers 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treamayne Posted August 31, 2023 Report Share Posted August 31, 2023 6 hours ago, MistbornMathematician said: Spoiler I believe that it's likely the sixteen Yoki-Hijo are each representatives of the same invested art, copied sixteen times over, with each having one of those identical arts. Please make sure your Yumi references are in spoiler tags - Yumi and the Nightmare Painter is still in it's spoiler period. Alternatively, you can ask a mod (by using "report post" at the top of your post) to move this thread to the YatNP Cosmere Spoilers forum until the spoiler period is over (when all of those threads will merge into this forum - Cosmere Discussion). Spoiler Forum: Stick to the appropriate forum. Check forum board description if you are unsure. Spoiler topics posted in non-spoiler forums must contain ‘Spoiler’ in the topic title. New books can be discussed without spoiler tags in the dedicated new book subforum/area only. Topic titles should not contain spoilers You are strongly encouraged to post topics on new works in the new book subforum/area only. If you must reference something in a spoiler period outside those forums, you must spoiler tag it. Spoiler Period and Spoiler Period Lengths for Forums and Discord: Cosmere novels - six months Cosmere everything else - three months Non-cosmere novels - three months Non-cosmere everything else - one month 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted August 31, 2023 Report Share Posted August 31, 2023 7 hours ago, MistbornMathematician said: The question of "what does Lerasium actually do" is one of the greater mysteries surrounding god metals, but we do actually have quite a bit of information. Let's start with God Metals in general. Reveal hidden contents mail-mi We know that any person can burn lerasium. Are there other God Metals that any person can burn? Brandon Sanderson Yes. Dragonsteel Mini-Con 2021 (Nov. 22, 2021) Lerasium can be burned by anyone (or perhaps, more likely, any Scadrian/person with a Connection to Preservation), and some (though not all) God Metals have a similar property. Reveal hidden contents word_thief What would happen if a Mistborn ingested the metal of a Shardblade/Plate? Brandon Sanderson A Shardblade is Invested. A Mistborn isn't likely to have a tie to that type of Investiture. So probably nothing would happen… General Twitter 2013 (Oct. 24, 2013) Any Allomancer can burn Lerasium, and any Scadrian Allomancer could burn Atium as well given their Connection to that Investiture. With some Connection though, well, any God Metal is open game. Reveal hidden contents Dave Smith Can a Mistborn burn any god metal such as tanavastium? Brandon Sanderson Yes they could. YouTube Spoiler Stream 2 (June 3, 2021) But here's the interesting bit: Reveal hidden contents Stormlightning If Hoid was to get his hands on "bavadinium," could he alloy it with lerasium and get Sand Mastery? Brandon Sanderson This is theoretically possible. FanX 2018 (Sept. 6, 2018) Alloys of Lerasium with another God Metal, when burned, may grant access to other Shards' invested arts. Given what Lerasium does by itself (gives access to Preservation's invested art), and how alloys with base metals and Lerasium make a non-allomancer a Misting, and how an Allomancer burning Lerasium or a base metal-alloy of Lerasium will become stronger in their Allomancy or in the corresponding metal, I believe this is enough to make a case for the following: A non-Allomancer burning an alloy of Lerasium with another God Metal gains access to the entirety of that shard's invested art or becomes more powerful with it, with potency corresponding to the amount of Lerasium burned. Without another God Metal, Lerasium defaults to Preservation. Lerasium burnt by a non-Allomancer gives you a connection to Preservation. Lerasium forges a connection to Shard. This connection gives you powers of Allomancy. Lerasium alloyed with another god metal forges a connection to that Shard, giving you the power of their invested art. It's like in compounding, where an attribute inside the metalmind, overwrites the charge of metal when being burnt, giving you that attribute fueled by Allomancy. Alloying Lerasium with another god metal overwrites the connection to Preservation with that Shard's connection. Spoiler Kaimipono Allomancy is fueled by Preservation's body? How exactly does that work? And how does that interact with Atium—it's fueled by both gods' bodies? Brandon Sanderson The powers of Ruin and Preservation are Shards of Adonalsium, pieces of the power of creation itself. Allomancy, Hemalurgy, Feruchemy are manifestations of this power in mortal form, the ability to touch the powers of creation and use them. These metallic powers are how people's physical forms interpret the use of the Shard, though it's not the only possible way they could be interpreted or used. It's what the genetics and Realmatic interactions of Scadrial allow for, and has to do with the Spiritual, the Cognitive, and the Physical Realms. Condensed 'essence' of these godly powers can act as super-fuel for Allomancy, Feruchemy, or really any of the powers. The form of that super fuel is important. In liquid form it's most potent, in gas form it's able to fuel Allomancy as if working as a metal. In physical form it is rigid and does one specific thing. In the case of atium, it allows sight into the future. In the case of concentrated Preservation, it gives one a permanent connection to the mists and the powers of creation. (I.e., it makes them an Allomancer.) So when a person is burning metals, they aren't using Preservation's body as a fuel so to speak—though they are tapping into the powers of creation just slightly. When Vin burns the mists, however, she'd doing just that—using the essence of Preservation, the Shard of Adonalsium itself—to fuel Allomancy. Doing this, however, rips 'troughs' through her body. It's like forcing far too much pressure through a very small, fragile hose. That much power eventually vaporizes the corporeal host, which is acting as the block and forcing the power into a single type of conduit (Allomancy) and frees it to be more expansive. Hero of Ages Q&A - Time Waster's Guide (Oct. 15, 2008) 7 hours ago, MistbornMathematician said: A non-Allomancer burning an alloy of Lerasium with another God Metal and a base metal gains access to the entirety of that shard's...what? Well, unknown? Not every Shard is based around the number of 16. Honor is based around 10, Odium around 9, Endowment around 5 and Autonomy around 7 (most likely). Most invested arts aren't connected to base metals or Metallic Arts at all - the metals themself have some universal properties, but it's because of Metallic Arts that Lerasium alloyed with base metals gives you the power of Misting. You don't get the same thing with other invested arts as base metals aren't in use there. Most invested arts aren't connected with base 16 metals. 7 hours ago, MistbornMathematician said: Here's where I drop a wild conjecture: each and every shard has precisely 16 invested arts that they can work with and shape. They correspond to the base metals. Some, like Preservation, have their 16 all as part of one big invested art. Some, like Honor, do not appear to put all of their eggs in one basket. Shards may collaborate with each other on these arts, like Honor and Cultivation with nine of the ten surges, though this seems to allow other shards the ability to meddle with them as well, such as Odium. Comparisons to how having a cracked spiritweb allows shardic influence abound here. It may also possible for some of these 16 invested arts to be bound together into larger, more potent abilities, such as how Bondsmiths can use Adhesion in ways that Windrunners cannot, manipulating Connection directly. That's not likely. A magic system spawns because of interactions between Shards inhabiting the planetary system and that planet. On Scadrial Ruin and Preservation caused Metallic Arts to spawn (not directly, it just happened and they didn't create those arts). Allomancy is just one system coming from Preservation and number 16 is unique to that Shard. Spoiler asmodeus You've said before that a lot of the magics we see across the cosmere come from an interaction of Shards and their Investiture with the planets they Invest in. What does this mean practically? If Scadrial explodes tomorrow, will Hemalurgy stop working across the cosmere? Brandon Sanderson Hemalurgy wouldn't stop working, most likely, but it could. There are ways that you could make it stop working. I kind of mean that the Shards are an innate part of physics in the cosmere, and the magics that arise are an innate part of physics because of that. Like atium seeped out into the Pits of Hathsin, in the same way, these magics are just gonna leak out, and different places are going to affect them. You'll see Lightweaving happening in different places, and the way the Shard is interacting with the local... The way the Shard is is going to affect how Lightweaving is administrated in the various magics, but it's still gonna be there. Hemalurgy is kind of a similar thing to that. You will see Midnight Essence, you will see some of these recurring ideas popping up, and these are like natural parts of the physics, but they're influenced by the Shards on the local planets. I don't know if that answer, that's gonna be a really fun one for them to transcribe into the Q&A thing, because I go around in circles on that question a ton. Put this part in when you do it. Footnote: It was a really fun one. YouTube Spoiler Stream 4 (June 16, 2022) 7 hours ago, MistbornMathematician said: Finally, Odium has ten Voidbinding arts, and I believe it is likely that the other six are represented among the Unmade. Is Voidbinding purely from Odium or it's a combination of all 3 Shards? After all it takes a corrupt True Spren to access Voidbining. There are also 9 Unmades, it doesn't add up to 16. 7 hours ago, MistbornMathematician said: Notably, this means that burning pure Lerasium and Trellium could give you some very unpredictable invested arts, as some of them likely are completely unknown to anyone but Bavadin herself. You post yourself A WoB which said what an alloy of Lerasium and Trellium (which is Bavadinium, confirmed in TLM) do. It makes you into a Sand Master. 7 hours ago, MistbornMathematician said: But there's one question left: what's Feruchemy? Ruin's art is Hemalurgy, right? I say no. Hemalurgy is not an invested art. It requires no Investiture to use, just Intent. It is literally a byproduct of Ruin's existence. Instead, I say Ruin's invested art is actually Feruchemy. This is contradicted by dozens of WoBs. As mentioned previously, invested arts manifest because of interactions between Shards and a planet. Feruchemy is a result of Ruin and Preservation's interactions with Scadrial, it's a merge of those two Shards. Spoiler Questioner Allomancy is of Preservation, correct? Brandon Sanderson Yes... Questioner What are Feruchemy and Hemalurgy of? Brandon Sanderson Hemalurgy is definitely of Ruin. Questioner Is it of pure Ruin? Brandon Sanderson Yes. That's a very Ruin thing. And Feruchemy is more of a blend. Though… there is more philosophy to that and human construct—like the Allomantic table—than I think I’ve made clear before. Shadows of Self Chicago signing (Oct. 12, 2015) Spoiler Argent (paraphrased) Feruchemy is the "balance" between Ruin and Preservation. Would any combination of Shards create a "balance" magic, so to speak, or are only certain Shards compatible? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) Feruchemy ended up being a balance system, because of how polar Ruin and Preservation were. Any world with at least two Shards will result in a similar phenomenon. Argent (paraphrased) Like Roshar? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) Like Roshar. There is something like that going on there. Steelheart Chicago signing (Oct. 5, 2013) Spoiler UndertakerSheep If I remember correctly, Allomancy is from Preservation, Hemalurgy is from Ruin and Feruchemy is from both Preservation and Ruin. legobmw99 This is correct. It isn't caused by a shard, but the interaction of two opposing shards [...] General Reddit 2016 (Aug. 20, 2016) 7 hours ago, MistbornMathematician said: Burning an alloy of Atium and Lerasium would make someone a Feruchemist We don't know. We have no idea what Atium-Lerasium alloy does. We know only that it's possible to use Scadrian god metals to become Feruchemist, but Harmonium is counted in that Spoiler Questioner (paraphrased) What will an Atium-Lerasium Alloy do ? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) Ah, I've been asked this before. There are a number of theories, but nobody's really sure, since there haven't really been any opportunities to alloy lerasium with atium. You can choose which one to believe. Most require an understanding of realmatic theory to comprehend, which you need to be a Shard or Splinter to even begin to understand.What Lerasium is, is essentially a hack for something like your spiritual DNA. It rewrites what your spiritual self is capable of. So, combined with atium, which allows you a glimpse into the vision of everything - past, present, future - the theories say it could do one of two things. It could either create a substance so volatile that it would have world-ending repercussions, or rewrite your "spiritual DNA" (his phrase, not mine) with atium's power. Is that a vague enough answer? TWG Posts (March 23, 2010) Spoiler Yoitsthew Would a lerasium/atium alloy create a Feruchemist, rather than an atium misting?? What with the way that it’s an alloy of god metals, and the way that lerasium can be used to acquire other magics? As far as I know there is no lerasium left currently, so this one is also just for my curiosity!! Brandon Sanderson You can use the god metals from Scadrial to make a Feruchemist, but I have to RAFO the actual means. General Reddit 2020 (Sept. 30, 2020) 7 hours ago, MistbornMathematician said: Some might protest, saying that Feruchemy doesn't fit Ruin, but Allomancy doesn't actually fit Preservation either! Allomancy involves burning a metal away, Ruining it. Feruchemy takes something and locks it in a metalmind, Preserving it. That's not why those metallic arts are of those Shards. Allomancy is of Preservation because it's a gift which preserves your soul, it forges the connection to Preservation that makes you stronger, and you draw the power from Preservation. Hemalurgy is of Ruin because it always ruins, you steal powers from others. Feruchemy is a mix because you get the power from your own body, from yourself. Spoiler Chaos Allomancy provides many very dramatic effects, which some have noted is not very much like Preservation. Could you walk me through how Allomancy is of Preservation, though it does dramatic, dynamic things? Brandon Sanderson One of the 'basics' of the magic in all of the worlds is that the energy of Shards can fuel all kinds of interactions, not just interactions based on their personality/role. I did this because otherwise, the Magics would all be extremely limited. The 'role' of the Shard has to do with the WAY the magic is obtained, not what it can do. So, in Preservation's case, the magic is a gift--allowing a person to preserve their own strength, and rely upon the strength granted by the magic. While Hemalurgy has a huge cost, ending in net entropy. /r/fantasy AMA 2011 (Aug. 31, 2011) Spoiler Czanos Preservation can fuel Allomancy, (minus atium.) but can Ruin fuel Hemalurgy? (Or atium?) And could Sazed fuel all three Metallic Arts? Brandon Sanderson Both gods could, if they wanted, fuel all of the Metallic Arts. Preservation is stronger at fueling Allomancy, Ruin stronger at fueling Allomancy or Feruchemy when it has been given via a spike. Both are balanced when it comes to Feruchemy. But this rarely comes up in the books, as it required expending power in a way that the gods were hesitant to do. Hero of Ages Q&A - Time Waster's Guide (Oct. 15, 2008) 7 hours ago, MistbornMathematician said: And so I'll finish with an incredibly bold and (aside from the above, and the Terris people's name coming from their word for Preservation) totally unsubstantiated proposal: Preservation's original art was Feruchemy, Ruin's was Allomancy, and they swapped them, possibly in an attempt to curb their Shard's Intent's influence on their minds. I'm not convinced by this nearly to the same degree as the above Lerasium use or the 16 invested arts per Shard, but I think it's a definite possibility. That can't be the case. The magic spawns naturally, they don't have such influence over it to swap it like that. Overall this was an interesting read. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MistbornMathematician Posted August 31, 2023 Author Report Share Posted August 31, 2023 3 hours ago, Treamayne said: Please make sure your Yumi references are in spoiler tags Whoops, fixed. 1 hour ago, alder24 said: Not every Shard is based around the number of 16. Honor is based around 10, Odium around 9, Endowment around 5 and Autonomy around 7 (most likely). Most invested arts aren't connected to base metals or Metallic Arts at all - the metals themself have some universal properties, but it's because of Metallic Arts that Lerasium alloyed with base metals gives you the power of Misting. Shards may indeed be based on certain numbers, but they are not entirely restricted by them. The case in point here would be Voidbinding, which we know is directly of Odium but has ten flavors. 1 hour ago, alder24 said: You don't get the same thing with other invested arts as base metals aren't in use there. Most invested arts aren't connected with base 16 metals. The fact that base metals are not directly used in many invested arts does not imply a connection there. Most notably, consider the internal/external, pushing/pulling, and physical/enhancement/mental/temporal categories, which may be applied to many invested arts we have seen. 2 hours ago, alder24 said: Is Voidbinding purely from Odium or it's a combination of all 3 Shards? We do not know if it is untouched by other Shards, and I'd think this to be unlikely given that it may directly mimic the ten Surges, but it is predominantly associated with him due to only the Unmade and corrupted spren being able to grant it. 2 hours ago, alder24 said: There are also 9 Unmades, it doesn't add up to 16. Yes, correct -- but some of the Unmade may have abilities which overlap with Voidbinding or with each other. As I mentioned, Ashertmarn and Nergaoul have very similar abilities, which both manifest as the external pulling mental sort. 2 hours ago, alder24 said: You post yourself A WoB which said what an alloy of Lerasium and Trellium (which is Bavadinium, confirmed in TLM) do. It makes you into a Sand Master. The "theoretically possible" does not say specifically that the alloy would do exactly that. It is entirely consistent with the notion that the alloy of Lerasium and Bavadinium might also require a base metal to specifically make someone a Sand Master, or that an alloy of just Lerasium and Bavadinium wouldn't give you other things besides Sand Mastery. Moreover, Autonomy has several different invested arts, meaning that it would be quite strange if Lerasium could get you Sand Mastery but not, say, Starmarks. 2 hours ago, alder24 said: This is contradicted by dozens of WoBs The notion of Hemalurgy not being an invested art isn't contradicted by any of them (or, in fact, any WoB that I could find), and the notion that Feruchemy is Ruin's is also consistent with the majority (though admittedly not all, some definitely seem to imply that Ruin and Preservation have exactly equal claim) of them. The ones you posted, however, do not contradict this -- in fact, the longer version of the third directly comments on the existence of it as an entirely distinct invested art as opposed to on Roshar (where it seems as if Honor had more direct control over Surgebinding, despite it being both of him and Cultivation). The fact that Feruchemy is the product of two different shards is still accurate, even if it is Ruin's invested art at the end of the day. The Old Magic is likely purely (or almost purely) of Cultivation, since it does not appear to have such hard-and-fast rules, so we have already seen an example of two shards on a planet who have invested arts where one is pure or almost pure, and the other is quite mixed, with only minor advantage to one shard. Just like Cultivation's art is predominantly hers alone, and Honor's is both his and Cultivation's, it is distinctly possible that Preservation's art is predominantly his alone and Ruin's is both of theirs. 2 hours ago, alder24 said: We don't know. We have no idea what Atium-Lerasium alloy does. We know only that it's possible to use Scadrian god metals to become Feruchemist, but Harmonium is counted in that Yes, that's part of this theory. I personally believe that it is just that simple, not involving Harmonium, any base metals, or any specific invested art. 2 hours ago, alder24 said: That's not why those metallic arts are of those Shards. Allomancy is of Preservation because it's a gift which preserves your soul, it forges the connection to Preservation that makes you stronger, and you draw the power from Preservation. Hemalurgy is of Ruin because it always ruins, you steal powers from others. Feruchemy is a mix because you get the power from your own body, from yourself. More that there is no real connection between the effects of an invested art and the Shard backing it. Hemalurgy being such an exception to this is another piece of evidence that it's a byproduct of Ruin's very existence, a fundamental law of the Cosmere that requires neither Investiture or Connection to Ruin, and not his invested art. 2 hours ago, alder24 said: That can't be the case. The magic spawns naturally, they don't have such influence over it to swap it like that. As per the above, the magic does indeed "spawn" naturally on a world that the Shard has significant influence over, appearing in the population. However, they most certainly have significant influence over their invested art and the rules thereof. The most blatant example is Preservation rewriting Allomancy as part of his plan, changing how it worked quite significantly, which is even more impressive given that he was likely quite weak when he did most of it. Harmony also modifies Allomancy, undoing what Preservation did and also reworking how Snapping occurrs. We also have an example of what happens to an invested art when the Shard who "owned" it is shattered: Honor put drastic limitations on Surgebinding, his own invested art, and when he was shattered, these limitations began to fade. The entire system of oaths to control Surgebinding was, if I'm remembering correctly, Honor's direct invention in order to curb misuse of his art, but that limitation isn't fading, which makes me think that there is some reason why him adding oaths to the system was a "permanent" change while limiting Bondsmiths appears to be quite temporary. Shards most certainly have a great deal of control. Perhaps they couldn't swap invested arts around, but that particular idea is blatant conjecture at best. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted August 31, 2023 Report Share Posted August 31, 2023 36 minutes ago, MistbornMathematician said: Shards may indeed be based on certain numbers, but they are not entirely restricted by them. The case in point here would be Voidbinding, which we know is directly of Odium but has ten flavors. No, we don't know if it's purely from Odium. 38 minutes ago, MistbornMathematician said: We do not know if it is untouched by other Shards, and I'd think this to be unlikely given that it may directly mimic the ten Surges, but it is predominantly associated with him due to only the Unmade and corrupted spren being able to grant it. Yes, corrupted is the key word here. 45 minutes ago, MistbornMathematician said: The notion of Hemalurgy not being an invested art isn't contradicted by any of them (or, in fact, any WoB that I could find), and the notion that Feruchemy is Ruin's is also consistent with the majority (though admittedly not all, some definitely seem to imply that Ruin and Preservation have exactly equal claim) of them. Hemalurgy literally is invested art. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. And we have mountains of evidence proving that Hemalurgy is an invested art, called manifestation of investiture, or end-negative investiture. I don't really understand how you can call Hemalurgy as not an invested art. Invested art is an in-universe phrase for magic. Hemalurgy is magic, it is invested art. Feruchemy isn't of Ruin. It's the combination of Ruin and Preservation, literally said in dozens of WoBs. 52 minutes ago, MistbornMathematician said: The ones you posted, however, do not contradict this They do. Read them again. 52 minutes ago, MistbornMathematician said: The fact that Feruchemy is the product of two different shards is still accurate, even if it is Ruin's invested art at the end of the day. It isn't Ruin's invested art. You're simply wrong here. 53 minutes ago, MistbornMathematician said: The Old Magic is likely purely (or almost purely) of Cultivation, since it does not appear to have such hard-and-fast rules, so we have already seen an example of two shards on a planet who have invested arts where one is pure or almost pure, and the other is quite mixed, with only minor advantage to one shard. Yeah. Allomancy is purely of Preservation, Hemalurgy is of Ruin and Feruchemy is a mix of them both. We see this. Just because Honor can twist something in Surgebinding doesn't mean that Cultivation cannot do that as well. They have equal power over their combined magic system, but that doesn't mean both of them have to change it. We simply haven't seen Cultivation trying to change anything in Surgebinding. 57 minutes ago, MistbornMathematician said: More that there is no real connection between the effects of an invested art and the Shard backing it. That is a misconception. It doesn't have to be any connection between the effects of invested arts and the Shard. That's not why invested art is connected to that Shard. The connection comes from how the power is obtained. Just like Surgebinding comes from oaths and growth, Allomancy comes from self-preservation, and Breaths comes form gift. WoB explains this. 1 hour ago, MistbornMathematician said: Hemalurgy being such an exception to this is another piece of evidence that it's a byproduct of Ruin's very existence, a fundamental law of the Cosmere that requires neither Investiture or Connection to Ruin, and not his invested art. That's what an invested art is. Every invested art is a manifestation of a Shard and its nature. It's a representation of Shardic nature. Hemalurgy requires investiture - without souls to steal from, Hemalurgy would be useless, souls are investiture. It can be used without Connection to Ruin because Ruin is universal, and the act of spiking is making this connection to Ruin. Spoiler Kaimipono Allomancy is fueled by Preservation's body? How exactly does that work? And how does that interact with Atium—it's fueled by both gods' bodies? Brandon Sanderson The powers of Ruin and Preservation are Shards of Adonalsium, pieces of the power of creation itself. Allomancy, Hemalurgy, Feruchemy are manifestations of this power in mortal form, the ability to touch the powers of creation and use them. These metallic powers are how people's physical forms interpret the use of the Shard, though it's not the only possible way they could be interpreted or used. It's what the genetics and Realmatic interactions of Scadrial allow for, and has to do with the Spiritual, the Cognitive, and the Physical Realms. Condensed 'essence' of these godly powers can act as super-fuel for Allomancy, Feruchemy, or really any of the powers. The form of that super fuel is important. In liquid form it's most potent, in gas form it's able to fuel Allomancy as if working as a metal. In physical form it is rigid and does one specific thing. In the case of atium, it allows sight into the future. In the case of concentrated Preservation, it gives one a permanent connection to the mists and the powers of creation. (I.e., it makes them an Allomancer.) So when a person is burning metals, they aren't using Preservation's body as a fuel so to speak—though they are tapping into the powers of creation just slightly. When Vin burns the mists, however, she'd doing just that—using the essence of Preservation, the Shard of Adonalsium itself—to fuel Allomancy. Doing this, however, rips 'troughs' through her body. It's like forcing far too much pressure through a very small, fragile hose. That much power eventually vaporizes the corporeal host, which is acting as the block and forcing the power into a single type of conduit (Allomancy) and frees it to be more expansive. Hero of Ages Q&A - Time Waster's Guide (Oct. 15, 2008) 1 hour ago, MistbornMathematician said: As per the above, the magic does indeed "spawn" naturally on a world that the Shard has significant influence over, appearing in the population. However, they most certainly have significant influence over their invested art and the rules thereof. The most blatant example is Preservation rewriting Allomancy as part of his plan, changing how it worked quite significantly, which is even more impressive given that he was likely quite weak when he did most of it. Retcon changed this. Preservation didn't rewrite Allomancy at all. Misting can burn his metal and god metals alloyed with it - Atium Mistings were electrum Mistings, Preservation changed nothing here. Preservation only made a way for people to access power - Mist snapping, later altered by Harmony. Those are minor changes. Spoiler Xais56 Brandon has said that everyone ought to be able to burn Atium, like they can all burn Lerasium, and the fact that they can't was an oversight on his part that he would've done different in hindsight. Maybe now he's had an in-universe reason to re-write the laws of allomancy it's back to his intended concept; Mistborn burn all 16 base metals, mistings burn one base metal, non-allomancers can only burn godmetal. Peter Ahlstrom My explanation for this is that Preservation somehow caused all naturally occurring atium to form as an alloy of atium and electrum. The atium Mistings were actually electrum Mistings. Xais56 It's a very tidy solution, but it creates the maddening question of what does pure atium do? Peter Ahlstrom That answer has already been revealed canonically. RAFO. Footnote: It has since been clarified that the effect was revealed on the Table of Allomantic Metals poster and seen at the end of The Hero of Ages. General Reddit 2021 (Nov. 2, 2021) 1 hour ago, MistbornMathematician said: We also have an example of what happens to an invested art when the Shard who "owned" it is shattered: Honor put drastic limitations on Surgebinding, his own invested art, and when he was shattered, these limitations began to fade. The entire system of oaths to control Surgebinding was, if I'm remembering correctly, Honor's direct invention in order to curb misuse of his art, but that limitation isn't fading, which makes me think that there is some reason why him adding oaths to the system was a "permanent" change while limiting Bondsmiths appears to be quite temporary. Shards most certainly have a great deal of control. Perhaps they couldn't swap invested arts around, but that particular idea is blatant conjecture at best. Oaths were added by Ishar, Radiants are Ishar's invention. Honor bounded Surges to limit their destructive potential and those limitations are now gone. The examples of changes Shards can impose on their invested arts are nothing in comparison to what you are proposing. Shards can't switch magics, because those magics are created from the very nature of those Shards. They are tied to them, they are forces of creation derived from those Shards. Shards can't abandon them and choose another because Shards are forces of nature, and invested arts are manifestations of those forces filtered by those Shards. Doing something like that would be breaking the laws of nature. This idea is simply wrong. Spoiler CaptainRyan *written* Could a Shard refuse to "fuel" a magic user? E.g. Could Preservation have refused to "fuel" Ham's pewter? (Please, for the question, assume Preservation is whole and undamaged.) Brandon Sanderson *written* No, but he could have interfered. *spoken* So, the answer is "no, he couldn't." Like, if you just had the Allomancy going, like-- CaptainRyan They can't shut you off? Brandon Sanderson They can't shut you off, but they can interfere with you using it. They could do other things. But, like, the magic, it would be like saying, "I refuse to let gravity work on this person." CaptainRyan But couldn't a Shard-- Technically, they can control forces-- Brandon Sanderson No, they can't, but they can interfere with it, does that make sense? ...Gravity is not gone, but this person is being interfered with and their relationship to these sorts of things. CaptainRyan Kind of like if I throw your pen in the air, gravity's not gone, but I've interfered with something. Brandon Sanderson Yes, exactly. And you can, like, twist the gravity, so it's pointing... But the laws of natures, burning is, like, a law of nature, and things like that. And they can circumvent, and they can twist, and they can bend, but the laws of nature are still the laws of nature. CaptainRyan They can't just cut it off? Brandon Sanderson Yeah. Oathbringer release party (Nov. 13, 2017) 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voidmaker he/him Posted August 31, 2023 Report Share Posted August 31, 2023 1 hour ago, MistbornMathematician said: Shards may indeed be based on certain numbers, but they are not entirely restricted by them. The case in point here would be Voidbinding, which we know is directly of Odium but has ten flavors. Was this confirmed? I thought all we had to go off of was the Voidbinding Chart, which is in-universe IIRC, and therefore can be wrong. 1 hour ago, MistbornMathematician said: The fact that base metals are not directly used in many invested arts does not imply a connection there. Most notably, consider the internal/external, pushing/pulling, and physical/enhancement/mental/temporal categories, which may be applied to many invested arts we have seen. That seems fun, but insanely difficult. If this turns out to be true or we get more evidence, I'm happy to start theory charting, but it seems incredibly unlikely. 1 hour ago, MistbornMathematician said: The notion of Hemalurgy not being an invested art isn't contradicted by any of them (or, in fact, any WoB that I could find), and the notion that Feruchemy is Ruin's is also consistent with the majority (though admittedly not all, some definitely seem to imply that Ruin and Preservation have exactly equal claim) of them. The ones you posted, however, do not contradict this -- in fact, the longer version of the third directly comments on the existence of it as an entirely distinct invested art as opposed to on Roshar (where it seems as if Honor had more direct control over Surgebinding, despite it being both of him and Cultivation). The fact that Feruchemy is the product of two different shards is still accurate, even if it is Ruin's invested art at the end of the day. The Old Magic is likely purely (or almost purely) of Cultivation, since it does not appear to have such hard-and-fast rules, so we have already seen an example of two shards on a planet who have invested arts where one is pure or almost pure, and the other is quite mixed, with only minor advantage to one shard. Just like Cultivation's art is predominantly hers alone, and Honor's is both his and Cultivation's, it is distinctly possible that Preservation's art is predominantly his alone and Ruin's is both of theirs. More that there is no real connection between the effects of an invested art and the Shard backing it. Hemalurgy being such an exception to this is another piece of evidence that it's a byproduct of Ruin's very existence, a fundamental law of the Cosmere that requires neither Investiture or Connection to Ruin, and not his invested art. No. Ruin specifically has agency over Hemalurgy, Preservation has agency over Allomancy, and it requires the both of them to do anything relating to Feruchemy. The mists weren't creating more Feruchemists, and Ruin wasn't weakening TLR or strengthening Sazed. Yet, Ruin was strengthening Hemalurgy or Harmony had the ability to weaken Hemalurgy (meaning Ruin/Preservation had control over it) and Preservation was able to Snap people into Allomancers. Fun idea maybe, but Hemalurgy is an Invested Art (undisputable) and Ruin had control over it (maybe disputable, probably not). I had written a lot more, but alder had managed to say basically what I was going to say, but I just wanted to elaborate in a way that showed some in world examples and my excitement for if this theory is true. (also my confusion with the voidbinding part) 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MistbornMathematician Posted August 31, 2023 Author Report Share Posted August 31, 2023 (edited) 3 hours ago, alder24 said: Hemalurgy literally is invested art. 3 hours ago, Voidwatcher said: Hemalurgy is an Invested Art (undisputable) Might be best to focus exclusively on this for the moment, so forests aren't lost for trees. Hemalurgy is definitely "magic". It is a supernatural thing that can be done in the Cosmere. It is firmly tied to one and only one Shard, and that Shard is able to effect change upon it (most notably, the post-Catacendre change that compounding no longer works). However, Hemalurgy is not an invested art, unless we consider a whole bunch of other things to be invested arts as well that don't even seem to be considered "magic systems". Alder, in another thread, supplied this WoB: Spoiler Questioner How many magic systems are in The Stormlight Archive, and how many of them haven't been seen? Brandon Sanderson I would say the only major one you haven’t seen is Voidbinding, it depends on how you count them. I count fabrials as one, Surgebinding as one, and Voidbinding as one. And then the Old Magic is kind of its own weird thing. Calamity Seattle signing (Feb. 17, 2016) Fabrials are a magic system, but not an invested art. I would argue that Navani's manufacturing of anti-voidlight, which is very similar to Hemalurgy at the highest level of abstraction (a non-invested individual uses methods which require specific Intent in order to affect a change in Investiture) is also not an invested art, and probably not really a magic "system", though it is of course "magical". Perhaps an even better example is, minor spoilers for Yumi: Spoiler The nightmare painting, which is done by non-invested individuals, requires specific Intent, affects change in Investiture, and is firmly tied through the medium (that being art) to a Shard, Virtuosity. We also know by WoB that this does not require a Connection to Virtuosity, as a foreign Lightweaver could also force a Nightmare to change shape. An invested art, at its core, is magic which requires the user to be Invested and, it seems, also requires them to have a Connection to the Shard responsible. Note the Old Magic potentially not working so well on worldhoppers, being able to hold Breath requiring a Connection to Endowment, Stormlight and Radiants being tied to Roshar through this Connection, and the land-based arts of Sel. A magic "thing" need not be this way. Connection, as a whole, is not an invested art. Invested arts may manipulate it, create it, or destroy it, and it may be tied to Honor, but while it is magical, forming a Connection with someone or something is not and should not be considered an invested art. Being able to go through a Perpendicularity is also not an invested art. It's magical, it requires Intent, it may even be tied to a Shard (though if it is, we don't know what that Shard would be). But it is not an invested art. I'm not actually sure whether bonding and summoning a Shardblade is an invested art or not, but since it can be detected with Allomantic copper I'd actually lean towards "yes" here, as a subclass of Surgebinding similar to Soulcasting. Other examples of magic that probably shouldn't count as an invested art are: Gaining a Connection to a place in order to speak the language. Becoming a Cognitive Shadow. Spiritual whispers, like the sort that Dalinar and Szeth experience. Eating Investiture. (Larkins, Nightblood, etc) Splitting Harmonium into Lerasium and Atium. (the current running theory is that it involves Intent, I believe) Using sound to draw out Investiture. (though this is probably is the same thing as making anti-light plates) (Debatably) Having a child when you or your partner has an invested art that can be passed down genetically. (Potentially) However Worldhoppers extend their lifespan. (According to some theories) Having a naturally high amount of Fortune. Perhaps the greatest point in favor, though, is the second Cosmere-wide magic system with extremely strong ties to a particular Shard which can manipulate invested arts and which does not require the user be Invested: bonds. Bonds are tied heavily to Honor, with Roshar having the majority of known bond types in the Cosmere, but they exist all over the place and, like Hemalurgy, can be accomplished only through Intent and, generally, certain actions (most often consent). Once the bond is in place, or as it's forming, there is generally some kind of invested art which now becomes possible, but the abstract act of bonding itself does not require a Connection to Honor (after all, you can bond an Aether) while it does appear to involve Intent, at least from one party, and usually, it seems, both. Hemalurgy is performing a destructive action with Intent which causes Investiture to be ripped from a living being and put into metal, which may then be given to another living being by carefully performing another destructive action. It has firm ties to Ruin. Bonding is performing a binding action with Intent which causes a bond to be constructed between a living being and a highly-invested being, which then usually causes one or both parties to gain some kind of benefit, often in the form of an invested art for the living being. It has firm ties to Honor. And just like there are many, many applications for Hemalurgy, there are also many, many applications for bonding. Radiant spren, Shardblades, Singer spren, Rayshardim bonds, Chasmfiend bonds, Unmade bonds, Honorblade bonds, that weird bond thing Odium can do to someone, Seon bonds, Skaze bonds, Aether bonds (spore eaters, aetherbound, and controlling midnight essence, probably more I'm forgetting), the bond between Bavadin and her avatars, the bond between a Shard and their champion, the bond between a Shard's power and Vessel, Aviar bonds, Shardplate spren, the hinted possibility of bonding an entire Shard like it was a spren, and apparently you can even bond a Spoiler Nightmare. There is also a litmus test of sorts, where you ask the question "Would holding a Dawnshard boost this?" and if the answer is no, it's definitely not an invested art. If Rysn decided to stick a spike through someone, make an anti-light plate, go through a Perpendicularity, become a Spoiler Nightmare Painter, or possibly even bond a Shardblade (I think it's likely a Dawnshard wielder would be able to summon one more quickly, but not make the initial bond more quickly), would it make a difference? I don't think so. Edited August 31, 2023 by MistbornMathematician grammar 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted August 31, 2023 Report Share Posted August 31, 2023 16 minutes ago, MistbornMathematician said: being able to hold Breath requiring a Connection to Endowment Wrong, you need no connection to Endowment to hold Breaths. You have Breaths, you can Awaken. Hemalurgy and Awakening are in many ways similar - everyone can do it everywhere, as long as they have Breaths (or other investiture per Yumi + WoBs) and intent - for Hemalurgy you need souls (which is the investiture you're using) and intent. Spoiler Badger1289 If Investiture can’t be moved beyond a certain point away from its world/solar system, how in the Cosmere did three Awakeners end up on Roshar? Brandon Sanderson Investiture from different systems acts in different ways. Certain people have managed, for example, to get some kinds of Investiture to leave their home world through the use of a kind of magical pipeline. Breaths attach to the identity of the individual, and are fully given away--freely, which removes some of this Connection. It's a nature of Endowment that the gift is given without strings attached, so to speak. But while it's a renewable resource, it's a difficult one. Roshar is extra "sticky" so to speak with Investiture. It's part of the nature of Honor, Cultivation, and oaths. So getting it off is a problem, though collecting it is not. Echono Wouldn't consuming it also be a problem? You need a direct or secondary Bond to take in Stormlight Investiture. It's not like metals or Breaths that anyone could absorb. Although a certain grouchy ardent might have found a way... Brandon Sanderson You are right in that Stormlight is more being seen as a power source, since certain systems in the cosmere can work on a variety of different kinds. Not just anyone could make use of it, at least not unless it is refined. Rhythm of War Preview Q&As (Oct. 8, 2020) This is pointless. You are simply wrong here - books and WoBs prove this. Hemalurgy is Metallic Art. Metallic Arts are manifestations of investiture on Scadrial, and these are invested arts. They are powers of creation. These terms are synonymous. Hemalurgy is simply unique, because everyone, everywhere, with proper knowledge can use it. This is because Ruin represents the force of universal entropy, he doesn't care who uses his art or where, as long as it increases entropy. Hemalurgy is the natural manifestation of Ruin - in the same way Allomancy is the natural manifestation of Preservation or Awakening is the natural manifestation of Endowment. Invested arts are mortal manifestations of the powers of creation - Shards. Hemalurgy is just that. Invested arts are just the essense of Shards leaking into the physical world, physical representations of Shardic nature. Spoiler Windrunner17 We have been introduced to two ways to refer to a magic system up until RoW. Khriss has referred to manifestations of Investiture (in the context of the Metallic Arts) and elsewhere has used the term Invested Arts, which seemed to be the in-world term for a magic system. However, RoW has now introduced the term "arcana". Is this a synonym for Invested Art or a term for a specific sort of "power set" like Stoneshaping or Lightweaving that might be present in different forms in multiple Invested Arts throughout the cosmere? Brandon Sanderson For the first question, arcana isn't really either of those things. Invested Arts would still be the official title. Where is arcana is more of a simple, more colloquial catch all. It's like maybe the difference between saying Olympic Categories and just sports. General Reddit 2020 (Nov. 24, 2020) Spoiler asmodeus You've said before that a lot of the magics we see across the cosmere come from an interaction of Shards and their Investiture with the planets they Invest in. What does this mean practically? If Scadrial explodes tomorrow, will Hemalurgy stop working across the cosmere? Brandon Sanderson Hemalurgy wouldn't stop working, most likely, but it could. There are ways that you could make it stop working. I kind of mean that the Shards are an innate part of physics in the cosmere, and the magics that arise are an innate part of physics because of that. Like atium seeped out into the Pits of Hathsin, in the same way, these magics are just gonna leak out, and different places are going to affect them. You'll see Lightweaving happening in different places, and the way the Shard is interacting with the local... The way the Shard is is going to affect how Lightweaving is administrated in the various magics, but it's still gonna be there. Hemalurgy is kind of a similar thing to that. You will see Midnight Essence, you will see some of these recurring ideas popping up, and these are like natural parts of the physics, but they're influenced by the Shards on the local planets. I don't know if that answer, that's gonna be a really fun one for them to transcribe into the Q&A thing, because I go around in circles on that question a ton. Put this part in when you do it. Footnote: It was a really fun one. YouTube Spoiler Stream 4 (June 16, 2022) Spoiler Kaimipono Allomancy is fueled by Preservation's body? How exactly does that work? And how does that interact with Atium—it's fueled by both gods' bodies? Brandon Sanderson The powers of Ruin and Preservation are Shards of Adonalsium, pieces of the power of creation itself. Allomancy, Hemalurgy, Feruchemy are manifestations of this power in mortal form, the ability to touch the powers of creation and use them. These metallic powers are how people's physical forms interpret the use of the Shard, though it's not the only possible way they could be interpreted or used. It's what the genetics and Realmatic interactions of Scadrial allow for, and has to do with the Spiritual, the Cognitive, and the Physical Realms. Condensed 'essence' of these godly powers can act as super-fuel for Allomancy, Feruchemy, or really any of the powers. The form of that super fuel is important. In liquid form it's most potent, in gas form it's able to fuel Allomancy as if working as a metal. In physical form it is rigid and does one specific thing. In the case of atium, it allows sight into the future. In the case of concentrated Preservation, it gives one a permanent connection to the mists and the powers of creation. (I.e., it makes them an Allomancer.) So when a person is burning metals, they aren't using Preservation's body as a fuel so to speak—though they are tapping into the powers of creation just slightly. When Vin burns the mists, however, she'd doing just that—using the essence of Preservation, the Shard of Adonalsium itself—to fuel Allomancy. Doing this, however, rips 'troughs' through her body. It's like forcing far too much pressure through a very small, fragile hose. That much power eventually vaporizes the corporeal host, which is acting as the block and forcing the power into a single type of conduit (Allomancy) and frees it to be more expansive. Hero of Ages Q&A - Time Waster's Guide (Oct. 15, 2008) One important aspect of invested arts is that any Shard can fuel any invested art, any investiture can be used to fuel any invested art if done correctly. Allomancy still is of Preservation even if pure Dor is fueling it. Hemalurgy just uses this as its core principle - it uses investiture of others, their spirit webs, to fuel the art. Hemalurgy is the invested art of stealing, just like Awakening is the art of giving - and Awakening can be used without Breaths (the Father Machine + some WoBs), and still be of Endowment. Shards represent the powers of creation, powers of nature itself - invested arts are just manifestations of those powers. Ruin is the power of entropy, and Hemalurgy is the representation of that power, in the same way Honor is the power of bonds and Radiant Surgebinding is the partial representation of that power. Shards are omnipresent, Ruin is everywhere, and in its nature entropy is not limited - that's why everyone can use Hemalurgy, as long as they want to increase entropy. Your comparison to Honor and bonds is wrong - compare decay that's happening everywhere in Cosmere to bonds - that's the right comparison. Not every decay is caused by Hemalurgy, not every bond is made by Surgebinding (or whatever Honor's pure invested art is, because such clear distinction doesn't exist on Roshar). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MistbornMathematician Posted August 31, 2023 Author Report Share Posted August 31, 2023 1 hour ago, alder24 said: Wrong, you need no connection to Endowment to hold Breaths. Ah, that is true. I made a mistake -- I confused it with Awakening, which doesn't work on other planets without some Connection. 1 hour ago, alder24 said: You have Breaths, you can Awaken. <...> everyone can do it everywhere This is not true, it seems. Spoiler Pechvarry (paraphrased) What happens when non-Nalthians come to Nalthis. Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) They cannot use their own soul to Awaken but could do so with obtained Breath. Pechvarry (paraphrased) So anyone could start Awakening once they received Breaths? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) You would probably have to jump through some hoops to Awaken (talks about systems needing rigged up to work on different planets), but anyone can benefit from a Breath. Essentially said "it's not that easy!" Words of Radiance Dayton signing (March 19, 2014) Also, thank you for finding that first WoB -- this section Spoiler For the first question, arcana isn't really either of those things. Invested Arts would still be the official title. Where is arcana is more of a simple, more colloquial catch all. It's like maybe the difference between saying Olympic Categories and just sports. quite nicely summons up the difference between an Invested Art and a magic system. 1 hour ago, alder24 said: Your comparison to Honor and bonds is wrong - compare decay that's happening everywhere in Cosmere to bonds - that's the right comparison. A correct comparison would be comparing that decay (assuming you mean entropy) to Connection. If you want to get very philosophical, you can sort Shardic influence on the Cosmere into four forms: Nature of Existence, i.e. true fundamentals of reality which really can't be conceivably broken. Cosmere Law, i.e. laws of the universe, which can be slightly metaphysical or entirely metaphysical Effect of Existence, i.e. the shard's non-invested arcane influence on the Cosmere as a whole Invested Arts For, say, Ruin, the first three could be written as: The fact that things can break, end, and decay. Entropy Hemalurgy For Honor, they would be: The fact that things obey fundamental forces (axial forces, gravity, electromagnetism, etc). Connection Bonds For other, less axiomatic Shards, things get a bit murker -- does Odium's existence allow for all emotion? Or just anger? Which Shard is responsible for grief, if so? Is Virtuosity responsible for things being beautiful, or the ability to see things as beautiful? And what Cosmere Laws go where? Preservation has lots of Newton's Laws, of course, along with "things that exist tend to continue to exist, more so the simpler they are", but what exactly is the Cosmere Law here? Identity obviously goes to Autonomy, perhaps Fortune to Whimsy, but does anyone get Investiture as a Cosmere Law? Not exactly something that I, or any of us, could sit down and type out. And as for Effects of Existence, I have to say, I am at a complete loss for any more of those at the same level as Bonding or Hemalurgy, except for what I might call "metanarrative crem dung" like "oh wow romances tend to happen between important people during earthshattering events a lot don't they". Perhaps those arcane influences are more subtle, higher-level, or just haven't shown up yet. Maybe they don't actually require some kind of Intent, so something like Investiture's innate effects on living things could be Cultivation's or mental problems and insanity allowing for more Shardic influence could be Odium's. Or perhaps the idea that all shards have to have all four kinds of influence in remotely equal measure is simply incorrect and trying to fill out the list is a waste of time. Regardless, comparing entropy to bonds is entirely wrong. Hemalurgy is an arcane process built on Entropy, Bonding is an arcane process built on Connection. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted September 1, 2023 Report Share Posted September 1, 2023 10 hours ago, MistbornMathematician said: Ah, that is true. I made a mistake -- I confused it with Awakening, which doesn't work on other planets without some Connection. No, wrong again. Awakening works everywhere, without any connection needed. As long as you have Breaths you can Awaken. You can Awaken without Breaths, that's how the Father Machine from Yumi was made. You can use Awakening everywhere as long as you know how to. Breaths are keyed to your identity, that's why you can Awaken without any Connection to Endowment. More recent WoBs: Spoiler Questioner So we know that you can't just have someone-- If someone were to do something similar to Hoid, he can't just pop and go "Oh look, I can now do Allomancy or I can now do Surgebinding". What about Breath? If someone could somebody get Breath-- Maybe not *audio obscured* Could they still get the benefits of-- Brandon Sanderson Oh, good question... Yes you can, actually. Breath is-- Once it is given to you, it is being keyed to you. Your Identity. So that transfer makes it yours to use however you want. Questioner So you could Awaken? Brandon Sanderson You could Awaken. If you-- If you were to somehow make it there, you would be able to Awaken. It's the easiest of magic systems to get the magic from, and then to manipulate. Because it has keyed into it Identity. Questioner *audio obscured* Brandon Sanderson Yes, you can take Breath onto another world. In fact, you've seen characters do this. Questioner *audio obscured* Brandon Sanderson It would work, yes. Questioner *audio obscured* Brandon Sanderson Yes, it would work the same way. The only magic that is location-dependent-- The ones who aren't interested in this, just hum to yourself, okay? *laughter* You don't need to know any of this stuff to enjoy the books, okay? I write them so that you could just-- each series can be read independently, and enjoyed. There is behind the scenes stuff, and if you want to dig, it goes pretty deep. So on Sel, we have AonDor. AonDor is based on the fact that the Dor, which is an amalgamation of Dominion and Devotion, has been pressed together and stuffed into the Cognitive Realm by Odium who didn't want it to gain sentience, as Investiture will do if it is left alone. It will either seek someone to be its Vessel or it will gain sentience. He pressed it in there; he pressed it together, which creates the violent reaction, because those two intents are opposed. And that is the foundation of the magic. Because it's stuck in the Cognitive Realm rather than the Spiritual Realm (the Spiritual Realm is location-independent; Cognitive Realm is location-dependent), it makes the magic on Sel only work in close proximity to what is keyed through there to the location they're keyed to. This has to do with Identity and Connection. Mostly Connection. So that means you can't do AonDor on another planet, but you can do other magics works anywhere, because they're drawing the magics specifically through either the place, or they're end-neutral, like Breath is, and you don't need any extra power. Arcanum Unbounded Chicago signing (Dec. 6, 2016) Spoiler Ilkhan2016 Breath and Stormlight are both forms of Investiture. AFAIK you can power any of the magic systems from any form of Investiture. Zahel is on Roshar, I believe, primarily due to how easy Investiture (Stormlight) is to come across. AFAIK the form of Investiture doesn't change anything about the abilities. For example, Szeth was sucked out of Stormlight when he drew Nightblood; and Azure used Stormlight to Awaken in Shadesmar. /u/mistborn is that right? Brandon Sanderson A lot of this depends on the Investiture and the magic in question. Azure was legit using Breaths, for example--ones she'd brought with her. But Szeth was able to feed Stormlight to Nightblood, much as Vasher uses Stormlight to keep himself alive. To Awaken with Stormlight, the easiest thing to do would be to first change Stormlight into Breaths--something that Azure doesn't know how to do. (Admittedly, Hoid doesn't either, so it's not like it's a simple thing to achieve.) You could also theoretically use some magical (or mechanical) means to power your Awakening with a different form of Investiture. Extesian This is very interesting. Is it possible then in the Cosmere for the 'intent' (spin or however described) of Investiture to be changed? And I mean within reasonable limits (not the powers of six shards or any of that). Can a Shard effectively grow in power in a place (e.g. toward an avatar) through another Shard's Investiture being changed (not just corrupted)? Or is it just making one type ('intent' - you should canonize a word for this :D) of Investiture mimic the properties of another? Brandon Sanderson Most of the ways of accomplishing what you're talking about would involve either 1) fooling/overwriting your spiritual makeup somehow. (This is what Hemalurgy does, for example.) 2) Refining the power somehow into a more pure form. But there are a lot of variables. The way magic from Nalthis works, for example, the system is just looking for any available Investiture to power itself--and so basically anything will do, regardless of the source. This includes consuming your own soul, in some cases... You'll see terminology coming along eventually that facilitates talking about all of this. I'm not yet decided on some of it. Celestial_Blu3 How many Breaths does [Azure] have by her final appearance in OB? Brandon Sanderson That's a RAFO, I'm afraid. General Reddit 2019 (April 25, 2019) Spoiler Rhandric How many magic systems are there on Roshar? Brandon Sanderson It depends on your definition. Is Windrunning its own magic system, or is it a division of a larger magic system? Are the ten different Surges each their own magic system, or...it's really how... Rhandric If you assume the surges are considered one. Brandon Sanderson Well then you would have Surgebinding, and the Old Magic, those are two at least, and there are things that are not explained in those at all, and how do you count creating fabrials? Is that a science and not a magic? Is that its own magic system? Questioner 2 It's a science, because anyone can do it. Brandon Sanderson So Awakening is not a magic, then? Awakening's a science? Because anyone can Awaken if they just get the breath. Rhandric That's one thing that stood out to me in your magic systems, because in all your other magic systems that we've seen so far there has to be some form of snapping to occur, and that's unique... Brandon Sanderson Not all of them because, um, let's see... Questioner 3 BioChroma doesn't. Brandon Sanderson BioChroma does not requires snapping. Rhandric Actually wait, is there an active magic system on Threnody? Brandon Sanderson Threnody has a non Shard-based...it depends on what you call magic. Do spirits coming back to life count as magic? It's science to them, but it's goofy science. Words of Radiance Philadelphia signing (March 21, 2014) Spoiler Questioner So assuming you have mentioned that it is technically possible to be able to use one magic system on another planet from a different one... Brandon Sanderson Yes. Questioner Is it possible to fuel that... Like, say could you fuel Awakening using Stormlight, or do you have to bring Breaths? Brandon Sanderson Yes, you could! Questioner Okay. Brandon Sanderson Excellent question. Now it's-- there are tricks to making it happen on each world. Some are easier than others, but yes you can. Questioner So could that allow a loophole to maybe... convert from one form of power to another? Or like from Stormlight to Breath? Brandon Sanderson Yes. In fact, that's part of why Vasher-- Questioner Vasher. I wondered that. Brandon Sanderson --is on Roshar, is because it's a lot easier to get Stormlight than Breath. Calamity release party (Feb. 16, 2016) Spoiler Argent Staying with Yumi, since we're asking the big questions here. I want to talk about the big machine, the father machine. Brandon Sanderson Yes. Argent There are some really interesting what feel like intentional parallels between it and Nightblood. Brandon Sanderson Yes. Argent There's smoke involved, there's eating of souls, there's a whole bunch of things. So what I do want to ask is: one, was the father machine awakened using Breaths, using Nalthian awakening? Or are you using Awakening as Lightweaving or Bondsmithing which is an overarching system in the Cosmere? Brandon Sanderson It's the second. This wouldn't exist in the pre-space-age as much; by space age there's a certain terminology that is going between... basically it's starting with the arcanists and moving to the general population. What certain themes in the Cosmere magics mean. And so when Hoid says "this is an Awakened machine" his audience understands what that means. It does not necessarily mean Breaths awaken, but Breaths are one of the main ways that people see things be Awakened. You should be noticing those parallels, but that's a term that in the Cosmere is becoming genericized to mean un-living object being given some measure of sentience and even sapience by application of Investiture, Commands, and these sorts of things. By this point they've all interacted with various Awakened machines of sorts in the future Cosmere. They know what this means. They've talked to an Awakened computer. Argent Interesting! Very interesting! That's what I was hoping you would answer. Because Awakening is such a cool term for Awakening an object, right! One notable difference between the father machine and Nightblood other than them using different magic systems to be Awakened is that the Machine was able to somehow draw people's souls at a distance, which seems EXTREMELY broken to me. Brandon Sanderson Yeah. I had to let... This is going to be a pretty special circumstance for this book. But yes. It is pretty broken. You wouldn't want this to be... this could be very dangerous in the wrong hands. Don't expect this to be very commonly used in the Cosmere. Argent Was that a side effect of the magic system that was used to Awaken the Machine, or was there something else going on? Brandon Sanderson This is a side effect of what Virtuosity did and the bit of Virtuosity in all the people allowing the Machine to have enough of a plausible Connection to them to draw upon them. Argent Ok. Interesting. I will think about this while I pass the ball back to Matt. Brandon Sanderson Yeah. This is me pushing just a little bit hard on the boundaries of what is possible. It is possible, but it it is pushing further than I normally would on the bounds of what that can do. Shardcast Interview (July 30, 2023) 11 hours ago, MistbornMathematician said: Also, thank you for finding that first WoB -- this section Reveal hidden contents For the first question, arcana isn't really either of those things. Invested Arts would still be the official title. Where is arcana is more of a simple, more colloquial catch all. It's like maybe the difference between saying Olympic Categories and just sports. quite nicely summons up the difference between an Invested Art and a magic system. Yes, it also directly contradicts your theory, proving that Hemalurgy is invested art: "Khriss has referred to manifestations of Investiture (in the context of the Metallic Arts)" 11 hours ago, MistbornMathematician said: For Honor, they would be: The fact that things obey fundamental forces (axial forces, gravity, electromagnetism, etc). Connection Bonds That's very open to interpretation. It isn't set in stone. Not every connection invokes Honor, not every bond is of Honor. Honor isn't defined by such narrow terms. Connection, like Fortune or Identity, doesn't belong to one Shard - it's an attribute of Cosmere, it permeates everything and everyone. It's a Spiritual property of Cosmere that everyone can use and it doesn't belong to Honor. Feruchemist manipulating Connection doesn't invoke Honor. Spoiler Pawell2812 Cultivation, Ruin, and Preservation seem like aspects of Adonalsium's cosmic nature rather than personality traits like other Shards. Is there a fourth Shard that is cosmic in nature? Brandon Sanderson I think they all are cosmic in nature. Even Honor, like you could say that's a personality trait, I don't think it is, I think it's a cosmic sense of justice and order, if that makes sense. We're phrasing it as a personality trait but that's not really what it is. There are those who would argue that the Shard of Honor is what makes things fall to the ground when you drop them and obey natural laws. Ben Epic Assuming the Dawnshards each represent four Shards, and considering their Intents seem to be similar, are Endowment, Cultivation, and Ruin all from the same category? Are they all Change Shards? Brandon Sanderson Oh, I get what you're saying. I'm going to RAFO that for now. YouTube Spoiler Stream 5 (Dec. 2, 2022) 11 hours ago, MistbornMathematician said: Identity obviously goes to Autonomy, perhaps Fortune to Whimsy, but does anyone get Investiture as a Cosmere Law? Those things don't belong to any Shard. It's like saying that a proton belongs to the Strong Force and only it. Those are separate phenomena. 11 hours ago, MistbornMathematician said: Regardless, comparing entropy to bonds is entirely wrong. Hemalurgy is an arcane process built on Entropy, Bonding is an arcane process built on Connection. Hemalurgy is an invested art, is called invested art and is canonized as invested art. It's manifestation of Ruin's investiture, leakage of Shardic nature into Physical Realm. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MistbornMathematician Posted September 1, 2023 Author Report Share Posted September 1, 2023 4 hours ago, alder24 said: No, wrong again. Awakening works everywhere, without any connection needed. If not Connection, what do you suppose the "hoops to jump through" are? This WoB you provide is the clearest on the topic: Spoiler To Awaken with Stormlight, the easiest thing to do would be to first change Stormlight into Breaths. <...> You could also theoretically use some magical (or mechanical) means to power your Awakening with a different form of Investiture. The former involves transforming Stormlight (a form of Investiture highly Connected to Honor) to Breaths (a form of Investiture highly Connected to Endowment). This does seem to imply some sort of Connection manipulation, doesn't it? The latter is far more vague, but perhaps doesn't rely on Connection at all. Is that what you are referring to? It seems the far more difficult version, given how it's phrased. 5 hours ago, alder24 said: Not every connection invokes Honor, not every bond is of Honor. Honor isn't defined by such narrow terms. Connection, like Fortune or Identity, doesn't belong to one Shard - it's an attribute of Cosmere, it permeates everything and everyone. It's a Spiritual property of Cosmere that everyone can use and it doesn't belong to Honor. Precisely! It's just like entropy, or Newton's laws. That's why it's an accurate comparison. 5 hours ago, alder24 said: Yes, it also directly contradicts your theory, proving that Hemalurgy is invested art: I would point out that spren are also "manifestations of Investiture", but that is arguing semantics. Perhaps it would be best if you were to tell me which of these following items you consider to be an "invested art" -- that way we can both be on the same page here! (This isn't some kind of gotcha "just say yes/no" thing, by the way -- absolutely feel free to say "this is a part of this other invested art" or the like. My own answers certainly would include "this is part of X invested art" for many of them.) Fabrial craft. (making fabrials through trapping spren in gemstones and using metals to produce an effect) Fabrial use. (just using a fabrial, not making one) Awakening. Forming a Connection with a region in order to speak and read its language. Making an anti-light plate. Nightmare Painting. Spore-Eating. Wearing dead Shardplate. Bonding a dead Shardblade. Summoning a dead Shardblade. Becoming a Cognitive Shadow in the same way Kelsier did. Using a Soulcaster. Splitting Harmonium into Lerasium and Atium in the same way Wax did. Forging. Hearing Spiritual whispers, like Dalinar and Szeth do. Using a Perpendicularity to travel to or from the Cognitive Realm. Taking an existing Hemalurgic spike and stabbing it into someone else. Making a Hemalurgic spike by stabbing someone, then never using it. The innate benefits of holding Breath. (without Awakening) Using an Awakened device like Fort's tablet. If you feel particularly bored, you could also mention which of them you think would or could be boosted if the user is holding a Dawnshard. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted September 1, 2023 Report Share Posted September 1, 2023 21 minutes ago, MistbornMathematician said: If not Connection, what do you suppose the "hoops to jump through" are? This WoB you provide is the clearest on the topic: Hide contents To Awaken with Stormlight, the easiest thing to do would be to first change Stormlight into Breaths. <...> You could also theoretically use some magical (or mechanical) means to power your Awakening with a different form of Investiture. The former involves transforming Stormlight (a form of Investiture highly Connected to Honor) to Breaths (a form of Investiture highly Connected to Endowment). This does seem to imply some sort of Connection manipulation, doesn't it? The latter is far more vague, but perhaps doesn't rely on Connection at all. Is that what you are referring to? It seems the far more difficult version, given how it's phrased. I'm simply saying that as long as you have Breaths, you can Awaken anywhere. You can Awaken without Breaths, one of these methods is aligning investiture with Endowment, other is to use special Awakening to fuel itself with any kind of investiture (the Father Machine). 24 minutes ago, MistbornMathematician said: I would point out that spren are also "manifestations of Investiture", but that is arguing semantics. No, spren are Splinters. Manifestation of investiture is a term synonymous with Invested Arts and also confusingly Investiture is another term for that (like F-nicrosil steals Investiture, but that means ability to use investiture, not static investiture). It’s a term that refers to magic systems like Allomancy or Surgebinding. It's the ability to use investiture. 27 minutes ago, MistbornMathematician said: If you feel particularly bored, you could also mention which of them you think would or could be boosted if the user is holding a Dawnshard. I don't feel bored and we know next to nothing about Dawnshards so it's hard to say anything. This whole thing is pointless because Hemalurgy is invested art, is called manifestation of investiture, and is Metallic Art. Hemalurgy is an invested art of Ruin. There is no argument you can make to disprove this, unless you have a clear WoB where Brandon straight up said that Hemalurgy isn't an invested art. This is not the case, we have multiple WoBs where Brandon is talking about Hemalurgy in the context of being Invested Art of Ruin. Khriss calls in in Ars Arcanum "Manifestation of Investiture" alongside Allomancy and Feruchemy. Also calls it end-negative art. Quote On Scadrial, there are three prime manifestations of Investiture. Locally, these are spoken of as the “Metallic Arts,” though there are other names for them. [...] Hemalurgy is an end-negative art. Some power is lost in the practice of it. Though many through history have maligned it as an “evil” art, none of the Investitures are actually evil. At its core, Hemalurgy deals with removing abilities—or attributes—from one person and bestowing them on another. It is primarily concerned with things of the Spiritual Realm, and is of the greatest interest to me. If one of these three arts is of great importance to the cosmere, it is this one. I think there are numerous possibilities for its use. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MistbornMathematician Posted September 1, 2023 Author Report Share Posted September 1, 2023 2 hours ago, alder24 said: Manifestation of investiture is a term synonymous with Invested Arts That...does not appear to be the case. That particular term has been used by fans to refer to gaseous, liquid, and solid Investiture, most notably god metals, as well as the mind that Investiture tends to gain over time. Khriss also appears to have very consciously used it to refer to Hemalurgy in the same group as Allomancy and Feruchemy, where elsewhere she refers to magic systems like Allomancy and Feruchemy as invested arts. Brandon, notably, has used it to refer to Hemalurgy. He has never used the term "invested art" to refer to Hemalurgy. He has, however, used it similarly to "magic system". There is also this: Spoiler Questioner I'm trying to understand the relationship between Hemalurgy and the Shard Ruin. Most of the Invested Arts involve inputs of energy of the Shardic Investiture that corresponds to it. That doesn't seem to be the case for Feruchemy and Hemalurgy. So I'm wondering what the relationship is between the corresponding Shards and those two Metallic Arts. Brandon Sanderson There's a whole lot going on here, and I'm not sure how much I can get into right here. But one of the basic concepts I built for the cosmere, way back when, was that a lot of the different magics would be showing up in different systems. And there are certain underpinning fundamental rules. And this is why you'll see Lightweaving working the same way across three different magic systems; I think you've seen it in three different ones so far. Elsecalling's gonna work the same way. Hemalurgy is a thing that is, like, part of the nature of the cosmere, that the Shard simply knew and was able to tell people how to do So is it of that Shard? Well, yes, because you would have to be following that Shard's Intent in order to use it. But it could be discovered on other planets, as well. Questioner And independent of Ruin's presence, really, except for as Ruin affects the cosmere as a whole? Brandon Sanderson Yes. Exactly. You are correct. Dragonsteel 2022 (Nov. 14, 2022) which may indeed end the whole debate here and now, as it appears to say exactly what I am saying. Most notably, saying that it is independent of Ruin except for his abstract influence is quite different from how he describes Shards and their influence over their invested arts. There is not a single WoB where Brandon refers to Hemalurgy as an "Invested Art", though there are several where he refers to it as a "Metallic Art" or a "Manifestation of Investiture". There are many which refer to things like Allomancy, Surgebinding, or the arts on Sel as "Invested Arts". And then there is this, which appears to be confirming my theory (i.e. Hemalurgy is not an invested art, but is a law of the universe that is a consequence of Ruin's existence yet is independent of him) and which I definitely wish I'd started out with as I bet we could've avoided most of this discussion. It also gives me Lightweaving and Elsecalling in the "fundamental nature of the cosmere due to a shard's abstract existence" category which can interact with and appear in invested arts but is not actually one, along with Hemalurgy, Bonding, and (if what you say about Awakening with other forms of Investiture is accurate) potentially even Awakening. Anyways though, now that this is more-or-less settled, would you mind going through my list of twenty things and saying whether you think they're invested arts or not? I completely understand about the Dawnshard thing, but I would really appreciate it if you let me know which of those items you consider to be invested arts, especially following this revelation. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted September 1, 2023 Report Share Posted September 1, 2023 29 minutes ago, MistbornMathematician said: That...does not appear to be the case. That particular term has been used by fans... Khriss uses this term in Ars Arcanum... It's canon. I've literally quoted this to you. Khriss also uses the term Investiture to refer to abilities - invested arts - which is especially visible in her classification of end-positive/neutral/negative investiture. "On Scadrial, there are three prime manifestations of Investiture. Locally, these are spoken of as the “Metallic Arts.”" Again, WoB: Spoiler Windrunner17 We have been introduced to two ways to refer to a magic system up until RoW. Khriss has referred to manifestations of Investiture (in the context of the Metallic Arts) and elsewhere has used the term Invested Arts, which seemed to be the in-world term for a magic system. However, RoW has now introduced the term "arcana". Is this a synonym for Invested Art or a term for a specific sort of "power set" like Stoneshaping or Lightweaving that might be present in different forms in multiple Invested Arts throughout the cosmere? Brandon Sanderson For the first question, arcana isn't really either of those things. Invested Arts would still be the official title. Where is arcana is more of a simple, more colloquial catch all. It's like maybe the difference between saying Olympic Categories and just sports. General Reddit 2020 (Nov. 24, 2020) 33 minutes ago, MistbornMathematician said: There is also this: This perfectly aligns with this WoB which I posted you in almost every post, and with what I've been saying to you all this time. That's what invested art is. Every invested art is explained like that and works like that. Plus Brandon listed Hemalurgy next to known invested arts - Lightweaving and Elsecalling - they are equal, manifestations of powers of creation filtered through Shardic intent. Spoiler Kaimipono Allomancy is fueled by Preservation's body? How exactly does that work? And how does that interact with Atium—it's fueled by both gods' bodies? Brandon Sanderson The powers of Ruin and Preservation are Shards of Adonalsium, pieces of the power of creation itself. Allomancy, Hemalurgy, Feruchemy are manifestations of this power in mortal form, the ability to touch the powers of creation and use them. These metallic powers are how people's physical forms interpret the use of the Shard, though it's not the only possible way they could be interpreted or used. It's what the genetics and Realmatic interactions of Scadrial allow for, and has to do with the Spiritual, the Cognitive, and the Physical Realms. Condensed 'essence' of these godly powers can act as super-fuel for Allomancy, Feruchemy, or really any of the powers. The form of that super fuel is important. In liquid form it's most potent, in gas form it's able to fuel Allomancy as if working as a metal. In physical form it is rigid and does one specific thing. In the case of atium, it allows sight into the future. In the case of concentrated Preservation, it gives one a permanent connection to the mists and the powers of creation. (I.e., it makes them an Allomancer.) So when a person is burning metals, they aren't using Preservation's body as a fuel so to speak—though they are tapping into the powers of creation just slightly. When Vin burns the mists, however, she'd doing just that—using the essence of Preservation, the Shard of Adonalsium itself—to fuel Allomancy. Doing this, however, rips 'troughs' through her body. It's like forcing far too much pressure through a very small, fragile hose. That much power eventually vaporizes the corporeal host, which is acting as the block and forcing the power into a single type of conduit (Allomancy) and frees it to be more expansive. Hero of Ages Q&A - Time Waster's Guide (Oct. 15, 2008) And this: Spoiler asmodeus You've said before that a lot of the magics we see across the cosmere come from an interaction of Shards and their Investiture with the planets they Invest in. What does this mean practically? If Scadrial explodes tomorrow, will Hemalurgy stop working across the cosmere? Brandon Sanderson Hemalurgy wouldn't stop working, most likely, but it could. There are ways that you could make it stop working. I kind of mean that the Shards are an innate part of physics in the cosmere, and the magics that arise are an innate part of physics because of that. Like atium seeped out into the Pits of Hathsin, in the same way, these magics are just gonna leak out, and different places are going to affect them. You'll see Lightweaving happening in different places, and the way the Shard is interacting with the local... The way the Shard is is going to affect how Lightweaving is administrated in the various magics, but it's still gonna be there. Hemalurgy is kind of a similar thing to that. You will see Midnight Essence, you will see some of these recurring ideas popping up, and these are like natural parts of the physics, but they're influenced by the Shards on the local planets. I don't know if that answer, that's gonna be a really fun one for them to transcribe into the Q&A thing, because I go around in circles on that question a ton. Put this part in when you do it. Footnote: It was a really fun one. YouTube Spoiler Stream 4 (June 16, 2022) All invested arts are just part of physics. 40 minutes ago, MistbornMathematician said: Most notably, saying that it is independent of Ruin except for his abstract influence is quite different from how he describes Shards and their influence over their invested arts. Yes, because every invested art is independent from its Shard and can be replicated by different Shards and their invested arts. Bondsmithing is very similar - you can steal pieces of soul and even attributes from others - WoB. What this means you're tapping into this particular power of creation but through a different Shard - Honor. You're reaching into entropy (let's call it that for the sake of simplicity) through Honor, using Honor's invested art. Hemalurgy taps into entropy using Ruin's invested art, well Hemalurgy. The effect is still the same - you've stolen a connection, but using different invested arts. Just like you see Lightweaving and Elsecalling popping in different invested arts - those are reaching into the same powers of creation but through lenses of different Shards. They are still the same invested arts but based around different Shards. Aon Dor can recreate Allomancy or Feruchemy and they still are invested arts. Hemalurgy is the same - it exists universally, just like every invested art. Because every invested art is a manifestation of powers of creation filtered through Shardic intent. Invested art is the ability to reach powers of creation filtered through Shards. And that's what Hemalurgy is, just like Allomancy or Surgebinding or AonDor. 45 minutes ago, MistbornMathematician said: There is not a single WoB where Brandon refers to Hemalurgy as an "Invested Art" There are 7 WoB where the term "invested art" appears, only in 2 Brandon himself said "invested art". 2 times (this and that). Not a lot. Because that's an in-world term. Brandon simply calls it magic (1403 WoBs). 1 hour ago, MistbornMathematician said: would you mind going through my list of twenty things and saying whether you think they're invested arts or not? Why? I see no point in doing so. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MistbornMathematician Posted September 1, 2023 Author Report Share Posted September 1, 2023 33 minutes ago, alder24 said: Khriss uses this term in Ars Arcanum... It's canon. Yes? They are not synonyms. Arcana is also not a synonym, as expressly said in that WoB. Invested arts are a subclass of manifestations of investiture (in that context, not the fan "any investiture manifested" context), and those in turn are a subclass of arcana. "Metallic Arts" is an explicitly local term that refers to a subset of manifestations of investiture. Just because the same thing can be referred to by two different words doesn't mean that those two words are synonyms. For example, "canines" may refer to foxes, jackals, and coyotes, along with dogs. The word "dog", however, is generally not taken to include foxes, jackals, or coyotes. 1 hour ago, alder24 said: Yes, because every invested art is independent from its Shard and can be replicated by different Shards and their invested arts. I do suggest carefully re-reading the WoB I gave. It has several very noticeable elements. Perhaps the most important is "So is it of that Shard? Well, yes, because you would have to be following that Shard's Intent in order to use it." Compare this to Lightweaving and Virtuosity's Intent, Bonding and Honor's Intent, and potentially even Awakening and Endowment's Intent. Then compare it to, say, Autonomy and Sand Mastery or Preservation and Allomancy. Next, read "part of the nature of the cosmere, that the Shard simply knew and was able to tell people how to do". And then "And independent of Ruin's presence, really." Unlike how other Shards have a not-insignificant measure of control over their invested arts, it seems Ruin just knows Hemalurgy really well, and can tell people how to do it. Changes in Ruin change Hemalurgy, naturally, but he does not have the same control over Hemalurgy as, say, Honor did over Surgebinding. Finally, read "So is it of that Shard? Well, yes, because you would have to be following that Shard's Intent in order to use it." The reason we are given for why Hemalurgy is "of Ruin" here isn't because it's his invested art, Connected to him and flowing through him, it's because you would have to be following his Intent in order to use it. Not any Investiture being related in any way to him, unlike quite literally every invested art we know much of anything about. (Note that Feruchemy does indeed involve some kind of Investiture that is manufactured, stored, and consumed.) 1 hour ago, alder24 said: Why? I see no point in doing so. Clear communication? Always handy to have a nice, firm baseline. It's fast, it's easy, and it would be quite helpful. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drunkenbotanist Posted September 2, 2023 Report Share Posted September 2, 2023 This seems like a lot of discussion over one observation/assumption Correct me if I'm wrong, but the central idea here is that because Lerasium +metal creates 16 types of misting, that logic may apply to all other shard metals + alloy, and because of that each shard should have 16 different ~~magic systems~~ defined somehow. And that assumptions assumptions later, hemalurgy isn't part of this system because really ruin's god metal alloy for 16 sets of powers creates feruchemy and ferrings. Do I have that right? It just seems that the Lerasium + metal = misting idea is such a minor never to be seen idea existing only in WoB to extrapolate a deep underlying part of the cosmere from. The idea that each shard should have 16 powers / "invested arts" they can grant doesn't have really have canon hints really unless you count feruchemy and then make more assumptions about voidbinding. But even without the text explicitly supporting this fundamental cosmere principle nevertheless to be true it would have probably had to have been probably a fundamental characteristic from the early times if not beginning of Brandon's career. You called it a wild conjecture in your post I know...I just wanted to make sure I understood what you were thinking before re-reading the 12 posts going back and forth about the definition of "invested art" which I feel like at the end of the day is meaningless. Because your idea is "because of the 16 allomantic metals influencing how lerasium works, Lerasium + other god metal + other metal reflects that each shard can have 16 different outcomes/magic types." And therefore it doesn't really matter what term you use, because some things are going to count as the 16 manifestations per shard, and some won't regardless of what you call the two categories. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MistbornMathematician Posted September 2, 2023 Author Report Share Posted September 2, 2023 1 hour ago, drunkenbotanist said: Correct me if I'm wrong, but the central idea here is that because Lerasium +metal creates 16 types of misting, that logic may apply to all other shard metals + alloy, and because of that each shard should have 16 different ~~magic systems~~ defined somehow. And that assumptions assumptions later, hemalurgy isn't part of this system because really ruin's god metal alloy for 16 sets of powers creates feruchemy and ferrings. Do I have that right? Kind of -- it's not so much of a chain of implications as three separate observations, that then begin a chain of implications. It's not that Hemalurgy isn't part of this system because Feruchemy is Ruin's invested art, it's that these three things appear to independently be true, and together they imply that Feruchemy is likely Ruin's real invested art. We have: We know every god metal and "god metal alloy" has a specific Allomantic effect and that these effects are unique. (Note that this does not necessarily imply that two god metals and a base metal actually count as a god metal alloy, as opposed to two god metals or a god metal and a base metal. That's big jump number one.) We also know that Lerasium and Trellium/Bavadinium can theoretically give one Sand Mastery (though it was not stated if this was through an alloy or not). We know that Hemalurgy does not follow any of the patterns set out by the other known invested arts. Specifically, it does not involve any kind of Investiture on the part of the user and involves no Connection of any kind to any Shard. Even Feruchemy involves generating Investiture from an unknown source, making its "end-neutral" classification somewhat suspect. We also have some WoBs that seem to imply that it is a more fundamental, less Shard-influenceable fact of the Cosmere than invested arts are. (Big jump number two is that this is sufficient to say that it is not a real invested art.) We know that it is possible, using Lerasium, Atium, base metals, and potentially Harmonium, to make someone a Feruchemist. We know that the Selish invested arts are actually all part of one big invested art, as per WoB, so if Hemalurgy is in fact more of a "consequence" than an invested art that any Shard is directly Connected to, that gives one invested art per shard, except for Autonomy who has at least three that we've seen, but that's ok since that fits Autonomy's Intent, and some parts of invested arts seem to nicely fit into the push/pull internal/external physical/mental/enhancement/temporal system, and -- you get the picture. The final big jump to a conclusion that I'm willing to actually say I truly believe is that Lerasium's alloys follow the established pattern of granting invested arts as the "side effect" and not the main effect, and that the real effect is actually forging a Connection with the Shard/subject attuned to with the other two metals in the alloy. Like an effect similar to the Ire's orb if you burned a Lerasium-Atium alloy as an Allomancer, just with the side effect of Feruchemy. This has very little actually going for it aside from the fact that it makes thematic sense and doesn't seem to contradict anything. The wild speculation includes things like all Shards having something like Hemalurgy that's a more fundamental constant than a proper invested art (with Bonding being Honor's equivalent, for example), all Shards having some even more fundamental law/mechanic of the Cosmere associated with them like entropy or Connection, and Bavadin's multiple other personalities being autonomous personifications of her 16 invested arts which are what she manifests as avatars. I hope that answers your question -- it's evident from the resulting debate and misunderstandings that I most certainly was not clear enough. 1 hour ago, drunkenbotanist said: I understood what you were thinking before re-reading the 12 posts going back and forth about the definition of "invested art" which I feel like at the end of the day is meaningless. I...frankly would say that the majority of the posts are relatively meaningless. It has been a debate over both terminology and metaphysical "place", essentially arguing over whether it has been definitely stated by Brandon that "big jump number two" is incorrect. There is not much to be gained from it, in my opinion, unless you particularly want to wonder over whether Navani making anti-voidlight plates was an invested art or not. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted September 2, 2023 Report Share Posted September 2, 2023 (edited) 12 hours ago, MistbornMathematician said: Yes? They are not synonyms. Arcana is also not a synonym, as expressly said in that WoB. Invested arts are a subclass of manifestations of investiture (in that context, not the fan "any investiture manifested" context), and those in turn are a subclass of arcana. "Metallic Arts" is an explicitly local term that refers to a subset of manifestations of investiture. Just because the same thing can be referred to by two different words doesn't mean that those two words are synonyms. In the same way Investiture is both invested art and static/kinetic/innate investiture, so is manifestations of investiture. But in the context of abilities, Invested arts are manifestations of investiture, and those terms are synonymous in that context. Rosharan would call it just Surgebinding, as the word Surge means powers of creation. Invested arts are physical manifestations of powers of creation, the ability to touch those powers. RoW Ars Arcanum: Quote As I’ve had further occasion to study the use of Investiture on Roshar, and the curious manifestation of it known as Surgebinding Spoiler Kimbobhi Is it possible to Surgebind using gaseous Investiture other than Roshar's? Brandon Sanderson So here's the thing. It depends on your definition of Surgebinding. Surgebinding would be the Rosharan definition of all of the magics. They would call the Metallic Arts Surgebinding. You are binding the powers of creation, which the word "Surge" is that word translated from Rosharan into English, that's what the word means in Rosharan, is the powers of creation. The fundamental forces which inspired me to make this. So they would consider all of them to be Surgebinding. And that's just what you're doing, you are binding and using those powers. Other people, including Khriss, would not agree with that definition. They would say: Surgebinding is specifically binding, through the Nahel bond, the spren, the specific manifestations of Investiture on Roshar, by using specific sets of oaths in order to gain access to those powers. So she would say: no, that is not Surgebinding when someone uses Allomancy. I would lean with her on that one, but the other one's a viable definition. What you're really asking is, can someone, one of the Rosharan, the Knightly Radiant Orders, could they power that with a different form of Investiture from a different planet? And yes, this is possible, though there might be some difficulties in making it work, which I haven't explained entirely yet. But yes, this is possible. In fact, it is possible to power all of the different magics with the different forms of Investiture. That is a possibility This is one of the reasons why Mraize and Thaidakar are so interested in Stormlight. Because if you could get Stormlight off, and you can crack that... just way easier to get Stormlight than it is to get the other ones. Like Breath, you could consider easy, but hard to morally harvest; in fact, perhaps impossible. If you want ethical, sustainable magic, then Roshar is a much better bet than some of the other places that you could... Adam Horne Does that mean Mraize and [Thaidakar] want an ethically sustainable...? Brandon Sanderson They're really interested in the sustainable part. I would say that they both would say "yes" to that question. They would consider their actions to be, on an ethical spectrum, at least in the neutral area, perhaps. Others would disagree with that. Adam Horne Where would they fall, philosophically speaking, like Kantianism, or? Brandon Sanderson I'd have to think about that. That's a good question. Certainly not as far on the utilitarianism side as someone like Taravangian, who's about as far as you can go. But Jasnah is pretty far on that side, also. Though she considers her version more of a "what is the greatest good I can do with any action I take?" (Which one is that? It's not Kantian, but you know what I mean.) That is a little on the utilitarian side. Not a little, that's... not as far as Taravangian, but that's definitely, yeah. They would maybe be in between those two, maybe. Depends. They're not the same individual, they would have different lines. There's gonna be (let's just say) future books that explore Thaidakar's relationship with that. But you have seen in other books the lengths that Thaidakar is willing to take in order to achieve his goals. He is not far off from Taravangian in some of those things that he has done. YouTube Spoiler Stream 1 (Dec. 17, 2020) 12 hours ago, MistbornMathematician said: I do suggest carefully re-reading the WoB I gave. It has several very noticeable elements. Perhaps the most important is "So is it of that Shard? Well, yes, because you would have to be following that Shard's Intent in order to use it." Compare this to Lightweaving and Virtuosity's Intent, Bonding and Honor's Intent, and potentially even Awakening and Endowment's Intent. Then compare it to, say, Autonomy and Sand Mastery or Preservation and Allomancy. Next, read "part of the nature of the cosmere, that the Shard simply knew and was able to tell people how to do". And then "And independent of Ruin's presence, really." Unlike how other Shards have a not-insignificant measure of control over their invested arts, it seems Ruin just knows Hemalurgy really well, and can tell people how to do it. We have no example of Lightweaving being of Virtuosity - we know of 3 different Lightweaving magics - one is filtered through Honor and Cultivation (and Odium), another is of Devotion and Dominion, and the last one is Yolenish Lightweaving of unknown source (likely Adonalsium himself). There is no Lightweaving happening on Yumi's planet. Lightweaving is not of Virtuosity. It's a power of creation and different Shards can manifest it differently. And yes, it is independent of Shard's presence because that's a power of creation - it's everywhere. Depending on which Shard's intent you're following, you get different types of Lightweaving. And yes, Shard have an intuitive understanding of their invested arts - Ruin knew about Hemalurgy, just like Preservation knew about Allomancy. We saw this with Sazed, how he immediately understood Metallic Art after Ascension. Even Rashek immediately understood Allomancy and Feruchemy when he Ascended. Honor is the same - he knew Surgebinding and granted those powers to Heralds. Ruin knowing and telling people of Hemalurgy only proves that it is his invested art - Rashek was able to understand Hemalurgy only on a basic level, only because Ruin whispered to him how to use it he was able to create Hemalurgic Constructs. 12 hours ago, MistbornMathematician said: Changes in Ruin change Hemalurgy, naturally, but he does not have the same control over Hemalurgy as, say, Honor did over Surgebinding. Doesn't he? Harmony basically stopped compounding in Hemalurgy, and put a limit on how many spikes can be accepted by a soul. That's the same thing that Honor did with Surgebinding - he limited the most destructive powers of it. The only difference is that Harmony did it subconsciously. But Harmony can't say "from this point on, silver will replace tin as base metallic metal, and tin will be useless, while silver will grant senses" - that's outside of his powers. Tin and silver have spiritual properties that Shard can't change, as they are results of laws of Cosmere. 12 hours ago, MistbornMathematician said: Finally, read "So is it of that Shard? Well, yes, because you would have to be following that Shard's Intent in order to use it." The reason we are given for why Hemalurgy is "of Ruin" here isn't because it's his invested art, Connected to him and flowing through him, it's because you would have to be following his Intent in order to use it. Not any Investiture being related in any way to him, unlike quite literally every invested art we know much of anything about. (Note that Feruchemy does indeed involve some kind of Investiture that is manufactured, stored, and consumed.) You have to follow Endowment's intent to Awaken. You have to follow Honor's and Cultivation's intent to Surgebind. You have to follow Ruin's intent to use Hemalurgy. Because those powers of creation you're accessing through their intent which result in this particular manifestation of investiture. That's what invested art is. "The way the Shard is is going to affect how Lightweaving is administrated in the various magics, but it's still gonna be there." 12 hours ago, MistbornMathematician said: The reason we are given for why Hemalurgy is "of Ruin" here isn't because it's his invested art, Connected to him and flowing through him, it's because you would have to be following his Intent in order to use it. Not any Investiture being related in any way to him, unlike quite literally every invested art we know much of anything about. (Note that Feruchemy does indeed involve some kind of Investiture that is manufactured, stored, and consumed.) It does. Abilities granted by spikes are powered by Ruin. Having a spike makes you connected to Ruin. You're taking pieces of souls of other people, that's the investiture you're using and it is likely corrupted by Ruin's investiture in the process of spiking. Spoiler Czanos Preservation can fuel Allomancy, (minus atium.) but can Ruin fuel Hemalurgy? (Or atium?) And could Sazed fuel all three Metallic Arts? Brandon Sanderson Both gods could, if they wanted, fuel all of the Metallic Arts. Preservation is stronger at fueling Allomancy, Ruin stronger at fueling Allomancy or Feruchemy when it has been given via a spike. Both are balanced when it comes to Feruchemy. But this rarely comes up in the books, as it required expending power in a way that the gods were hesitant to do. Hero of Ages Q&A - Time Waster's Guide (Oct. 15, 2008) Spoiler Zantis Let's say Lift received two Hemalurgic spikes: one for Allomantic bendalloy and one for Feruchemical bendalloy. Then she eats a bunch of pancakes, stores the nutrition in a piece of bendalloy, burns it to compound nutrition. Can that nutrition be turned into Stormlight? Brandon Sanderson Yeah. Yeah, but remember she didn't have to be-- so basically what that-- Is just a really complicated way for her to turn Allomantic Investiture-- so that it can allocate Allomantic Investiture into Stormlight. That would be a complex method of doing that. Just transferring one type of Investiture into another. It's just basically drawing from Ruin and she is then turning it into Stormlight-ish? It's a complicated thing, but that's basically what happens, just really crazy. Zantis Okay, so-- but it is the same sort of thing, right? *hesitant nod from Brandon* And-- Brandon Sanderson I hope that eventually in the cosmere they will find easier ways than that. Emerald City Comic Con 2018 (March 1, 2018) 12 hours ago, MistbornMathematician said: Clear communication? Always handy to have a nice, firm baseline. It's fast, it's easy, and it would be quite helpful. Helpful for what? This is not related to the topic. Here is a list of known manifestations of investiture in Cosmere: Manifestations of Investiture 8 hours ago, MistbornMathematician said: We know that Hemalurgy does not follow any of the patterns set out by the other known invested arts. Specifically, it does not involve any kind of Investiture on the part of the user Sand Mastery involves no investiture on the part of the user, it's using investiture that is in the White Sand. 8 hours ago, MistbornMathematician said: and involves no Connection of any kind to any Shard. You gain that connection when you're spiking and when you have a spike in your body - that's why Ruin can talk to you. 8 hours ago, MistbornMathematician said: Even Feruchemy involves generating Investiture from an unknown source, making its "end-neutral" classification somewhat suspect. And where did you get that from? Investiture in Feruchemy comes from your own body - you transform attributes of your body into investiture, that is stored in metalminds. That's why it's end-neutral, because investiture doesn't come from an external source, nor is it lost. This is possible because in Cosmere matter=energy=investiture, one can be transformed into others just like in our world matter can be changed into energy or energy into matter. Spoiler Questioner Your magic systems are very structured, and specific rules that dominate them. But are there any universal laws that apply to all of the magic systems in the cosmere together? Brandon Sanderson Yes, there's several of them. Basically, the most important one and relevant to people who enjoy real physics is that I consider something called Investiture to be a third state of matter and energy. So, instead of e=mc^2, we have a third thing, Investiture, in there. And you can change Investiture to matter or to energy. And so, because of that, that law that you can do this, is where we see a lot of the cosmere magics living. [...] ICon 2019 (Oct. 15, 2019) 8 hours ago, MistbornMathematician said: We know that the Selish invested arts are actually all part of one big invested art, as per WoB, so if Hemalurgy is in fact more of a "consequence" than an invested art that any Shard is directly Connected to, that gives one invested art per shard, except for Autonomy who has at least three that we've seen, but that's ok since that fits Autonomy's Intent, and some parts of invested arts seem to nicely fit into the push/pull internal/external physical/mental/enhancement/temporal system, and -- you get the picture. One Shard can be connected to many invested arts. Cultivation has an invested art on Ashyn, has Old Magic, is connected to Radiant Surgebinding and her own Lifebinding. Definition of "how many invested arts are there on a planet" is fluid, it depends on the person defining those words. Spoiler Questioner What is Feruchemy, is it tied to any Shard? Brandon Sanderson Feruchemy, is it tied to any Shard in specific? Yes, they talk about that in the books. Questioner Ok, it's like, of Preservation? Brandon Sanderson Yes, you could say that. Brandon Sanderson Because it seems like one Shard, one magic system? Brandon Sanderson Here's the thing, it's more that-- They, in their philosophy, say that it's kind of a hybrid between the two, but you could kind of feel that it's more-- Questioner It seems more Preservation. Brandon Sanderson It seems more Preservation, but in-world they think it's kind of a hybrid. The philosophy says that one was kind of net-positive, one was kind of net-negative and one was a hybrid. That's their in-world philosophy. I personally would place it more with Preservation. Questioner Ok so more than one magic system can be tied to one Shard? Brandon Sanderson Yes. Questioner Ok, that's what I wanted to know. Brandon Sanderson Here's the thing, the definition of magic system can be, is so fluid. Like you can look at this book and say "how many magic systems are there?". Is Surgebinding one or is it ten? Questioner Allomancy's 16-- Brandon Sanderson Is Allomancy 16 or one, and things like that. So yes multiple magic systems can be tied to a Shard. Firefight San Francisco signing (Jan. 17, 2015) Spoiler Questioner You have talked about writing a book about Ashyn, the first planet in the Rosharan system. You said that they have a magic system based on disease, but they are currently without a Shard. Can you tell us what the source of that magic system is? Brandon Sanderson A lot of the magic systems in the cosmere, I kind of in my head differentiate kind of the primary worlds and the secondary worlds. And even on the secondary worlds, there is magic. And any place that a Shard has been in presence is gonna leave behind an aftereffect, but it's not always that. I would call most of the magic on Ashyn Cultivation-based, most likely. And Cultivation's in the system, but has only briefly been to that planet. But it doesn't mean that... basically, it's kind of the level of Investiture. If you go to Scadrial, on Scadrial, you're gonna have a high percentage of the population, cosmereologically, that are gonna have access to one of the Hemalurgic [Metallic] arts, right? Same thing on Roshar. And indeed, the people are going to be Invested on a level that is beyond the others. This is my in-world canon reason that people just don't come down with colds very often or have tooth decay very often, and things like that. On the primary Shardworlds, we're talking about people who are just naturally, highly Invested. All the other worlds, though, you're still gonna have the occasional pop-up of magic, here and there. You're still gonna have effects of being in the cosmere, and things like that. Just much smaller chances. And the magic's probably going to be less likely to be planet-destroying potential, and things like that, like happened on Ashyn. Dragonsteel Mini-Con 2021 (Nov. 23, 2021) 8 hours ago, MistbornMathematician said: I...frankly would say that the majority of the posts are relatively meaningless. It has been a debate over both terminology and metaphysical "place", essentially arguing over whether it has been definitely stated by Brandon that "big jump number two" is incorrect. There is not much to be gained from it, in my opinion, unless you particularly want to wonder over whether Navani making anti-voidlight plates was an invested art or not. Yup, it's pointless. It's clear that we both won't back down and we won't reach any satisfying conclusion. We're going in circles repeating the same things over and over again and it won't change. We should end this and agree to disagree. You yourself call it a "big jump", and that’s what it is, that’s why there is such an opposition from me, as I see it as baseless speculations contradicting known canon. Edit: I've been wondering how you could get other invested powers of the same Shard using Lerasium, because you have a point about Sand Mastery and Starmarks. How to get them using Lerasium and Bavadinium. And I think the answer is simple - you need to be connected to a particular Avatar of Autonomy, and to do that you need to be in the region influenced by that Avatar. Having Trellium spikes allows you to communicate with Trell on Scadrial, not Autonomy directly. Harmony confirmed Trellium is Bavadinium, this should work with other Avatars as well. This means that the presence of Avatar redirects connection to them from Autonomy. Quote “When Vin, the Ascendant Warrior, was resisting Ruin, she didn’t realize that the little earring she wore linked her to him. It let him get inside her head, speak with her. Connect to her.” He nodded to Wax’s earring. “With a trellium spike, you will be Connected to Trell’s avatar—much as you now are to me. She will be able to sense you, and you her.” It is also very likely that Darkside of Taldain has an Avatar of Autonomy there - Skathan: Quote Baon tells Khriss that Skathan does not appear to age, and is said to have been alive for hundreds of years.[1] He also implies that Skathan has other magical abilities.[1] Although the Darkside does have some unknown manifestations of Investiture,[3] the source and nature of Skathan's powers is not known. [...] He also has an army of starcarved.[5] Thus having Bavadinium spike on the Darkside would redirect you to Skathan. That's why I think burning Lerasium-Bavadiunium alloy on Darkside would somehow redirect the connection from Autonomy to Skathan, at least partially, and grant you Starmarks instead of Sand Mastery (which would be granted by connection to the Sand Lord, which influences the Dayside). Of course that's a stretch and bunch of speculations, but there might be something to it. Edited September 2, 2023 by alder24 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drunkenbotanist Posted September 2, 2023 Report Share Posted September 2, 2023 (edited) Quote Questioner I'm trying to understand the relationship between Hemalurgy and the Shard Ruin. Most of the Invested Arts involve inputs of energy of the Shardic Investiture that corresponds to it. That doesn't seem to be the case for Feruchemy and Hemalurgy. So I'm wondering what the relationship is between the corresponding Shards and those two Metallic Arts. Brandon Sanderson There's a whole lot going on here, and I'm not sure how much I can get into right here. But one of the basic concepts I built for the cosmere, way back when, was that a lot of the different magics would be showing up in different systems. And there are certain underpinning fundamental rules. And this is why you'll see Lightweaving working the same way across three different magic systems; I think you've seen it in three different ones so far. Elsecalling's gonna work the same way. Hemalurgy is a thing that is, like, part of the nature of the cosmere, that the Shard simply knew and was able to tell people how to do So is it of that Shard? Well, yes, because you would have to be following that Shard's Intent in order to use it. But it could be discovered on other planets, as well. Questioner And independent of Ruin's presence, really, except for as Ruin affects the cosmere as a whole? Brandon Sanderson Yes. Exactly. You are correct. Dragonsteel 2022 (Nov. 14, 2022) I take the above WOB that is pretty recent about Hemalurgy to mean that you can steal powers without involving Ruin, you can carve off bits of a soul and stick them other places. This is similar to how Connection and bonding doesn't always actually involve Honor, but Honor has a system based on bonds. You can bond things without it implicating Honor specifically. But Ruin has a specific form of this called Hemalurgy that is Ruin's. Maybe it's the intent to destroy that is the specific part only, and maybe more likely (in my opinion) it's the whole specific system of bind points and intents and to a degree the effects of metals in Hemalurgy. I don't know what this means necessarily for implications about your ideas about the effects of a lerasium + other god metal + other metal situation for powers...and I do think you're right and most people would agree that it seems like Lerasium is forming a connection to Preservation. Lerasium + Endowment metal seems like it could give you breaths...or even lets you use Preservation's power in a way identical to Breath's, but it makes sense to me that Lerasium + atium doesn't give you Hemalurgy not because Hemalurgy isn't Ruin's, but because using Hemalurgy doesn't require you to have pre-existing Ruin investiture. But canonically feruchemy is the set of powers that involves them both. But one other way to think about the Lerasium + Trellium giving you sand mastery...we don't know that the investiture giving the ability to use sand mastery would be come from autonomy, or even that it would last after you're finished burning the alloy do we? We know that metals burned by an allomancer tell Preservation's investiture what effects to cause. God metals in the Lerasium alloy situations could just be playing the same role. And in that scenario, I don't know if the 16 theoretical mashups of particular shard combination + extra metal means that there should be a 16 limit on shard magic systems. Because the numerology of specific shards we have in canon does already seem to be involved in that. Edit: clarification I think your point 2 is what I most disagree with tbh and I might be unique here, but. "2. We know that Hemalurgy does not follow any of the patterns set out by the other known invested arts. Specifically, it does not involve any kind of Investiture on the part of the user and involves no Connection of any kind to any Shard." I don't agree that Hemalurgy is all that unique as a [magic system, practice, invested art, w/e]. You obtain power in a way that aligns with the intent of Ruin. Ruin's investiture in the spiritual realm is what causes a chunk of a spiritweb to be ripped with the intent/key being metal stabbed into someone somewhere. Related I also think that Hemalurgy is not the only way to steal powers. What Ishar almost did to Dalinar with his bond is similar in principle. By that I mean it would involve carving off a bit of Dalinar's spiritweb, the bond with the stormfather, and splicing it into Ishar's. That's hemalurgy to me in a similar way to Yolen and Roshar both having "lightweaving", but it isn't Hemalurgy in that you don't have to have intent aligned with ruin and stab specific metals into a person in a specific place. Investiture can be used by any shard to make an illusion, can be used by any shard to make a gateway in the physical realm, those are called lightweaving, elsecalling. Ruin has a system that allows editing a spirit web, but the ability to use investiture to do so is not restricted to Ruin. Edited September 2, 2023 by drunkenbotanist Clarification 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MistbornMathematician Posted September 3, 2023 Author Report Share Posted September 3, 2023 (edited) 15 hours ago, alder24 said: Invested arts are manifestations of investiture On this we agree, but 15 hours ago, alder24 said: those terms are synonymous in that context I do not think this has been sufficiently established. For what it's worth, it hasn't been proven that they aren't synonymous, but that's not the point of contention. 15 hours ago, alder24 said: Rosharan would call it just Surgebinding, as the word Surge means powers of creation. As the WoB you cited below shows, people would absolutely disagree about their use of that term as a synonym. Notably, Khriss herself would disagree. In fact, the debate we're having right now is probably one that could happen in-universe, and potentially even has. 15 hours ago, alder24 said: We have no example of Lightweaving being of Virtuosity And no direct example that Bonding as a whole is of Honor -- yet it makes a considerable amount of sense. 15 hours ago, alder24 said: And yes, Shard have an intuitive understanding of their invested arts The point is that he had more besides. 15 hours ago, alder24 said: Rashek was able to understand Hemalurgy only on a basic level, only because Ruin whispered to him how to use it he was able to create Hemalurgic Constructs. Kelsier's comments after holding the power of Preservation contradict this notion that Rashek could not have understood Hemalurgy while holding the power of Preservation without Ruin. 15 hours ago, alder24 said: There is no Lightweaving happening on Yumi's planet. One might argue that the entirety of the illusion perpetuated upon Yumi was, in fact, a form of Lightweaving. However, this is unclear. 15 hours ago, alder24 said: Doesn't he? Harmony basically stopped compounding in Hemalurgy, and put a limit on how many spikes can be accepted by a soul. I believe this was stated to be something of an unintentional side effect of the merger, but I could not find that WoB. I also could not find any WoB stating the opposite, that Harmony did it purposefully. Do you have a source you're going from? 15 hours ago, alder24 said: You have to follow Endowment's intent to Awaken. You have to follow Honor's and Cultivation's intent to Surgebind. You have to follow Ruin's intent to use Hemalurgy. The first is why I'm beginning to think that Awakening, especially as it can be done with any kind of Investiture without turning it into Breaths, is of a similar genre to Hemalurgy and Bonding. However, I'm not sure why you think Surgebinding requires following Honor's and Cultivation's intent. Nowadays, you do generally have to form a Bond in order to Surgebind (whether with a Spren or with an Honorblade), but saying that Surgebinding itself somehow requires following Honor's or Cultivation's intent does seem to be more than a little bit of a stretch. If you were running around on Ashyn before all of the rules got put in place, breathing in Stormlight and setting things on fire, that doesn't seem to be nearly the same sort of similarity of Intent as running a spike through someone's heart or endowing an inanimate object with life. 15 hours ago, alder24 said: Abilities granted by spikes are powered by Ruin. I have seen that suggested before, but it's not quite as cut-and-dry as you suggest here. Allomancy's power is innately fueled by Preservation, but (to the best of my knowledge) we do not know that a Hemalurgically-granted Allomantic power would be innately fueled by Ruin. The first WoB you have is about Shards consciously and intentionally fueling invested arts beyond the "normal" amounts, such as Vin fueling Elend's Allomancy or, possibly, Ruin enhancing the Feruchemical stores of the Steel Inquisitors. It says that they are better at consciously fueling invested arts that are more Connected to them, with arts granted by Hemalurgy being innately more Connected to Ruin and thus easier for him to power. What we do know is that the Investiture in the spikes themselves is the Investiture found in souls, with that Investiture being ripped off of the soul and invested into the metal. We also know that Hemalurgy can "fool" a bond, meaning that there is no thematic reason why a Shard whose power naturally fuels a particular art wouldn't continue to do so. The second WoB you cite is very weird, and it has two notable oddities: the first is saying Lift creates Stormlight, not Lifelight, while the second is technically saying that compounding a metalmind draws power specifically from Ruin when it's Hemalurgically granted. I spent a fair bit trying to find some WoB that says that normal compounding specifically draws the additional power from Preservation, but I couldn't find one -- do you know if there is such a confirmation? If not, then perhaps burning Feruchemically-stored Investiture does indeed get that power from Ruin, which would be a strong sign of the relationship between the two. 15 hours ago, alder24 said: Investiture in Feruchemy comes from your own body - you transform attributes of your body into investiture, that is stored in metalminds. That's why it's end-neutral, because investiture doesn't come from an external source, nor is it lost. This is possible because in Cosmere matter=energy=investiture, one can be transformed into others just like in our world matter can be changed into energy or energy into matter. Energy, matter, and Investiture can be turned into each other, this is indeed true. However, this is not what is going on in Feruchemy. If I store, say, taste into a tinmind, I do not change in weight, nor do I change in energy. My soul is not being drained into this tinmind. So where does this Investiture come from? What am I storing in this tinmind and how am I getting it? And with weight, if I drain my weight into an ironmind, I think you're trying to say that this is matter being turned into Investiture, but when I restore my weight, there's still Investiture in this ironmind. From a physics perspective, I have done precisely zero work by standing still and putting all of my weight into a ironmind, so there's no energy to use either. It's not like my body has to put up the energy either -- Wax doesn't have to eat constantly every time he drains weight, and though he does get slightly weaker, some tasks (like climbing) are even easier when his weight is drained. In short, the Investiture in a metalmind most certainly does not come from your innate Investiture, any matter in your body, or any energy your body produces (at least not from all of the metals, I assume storing Investiture does what it says on the tin). 15 hours ago, alder24 said: Helpful for what? This is not related to the topic. It...is, at least to me. It would also be helpful for me, personally. 15 hours ago, alder24 said: Sand Mastery involves no investiture on the part of the user, it's using investiture that is in the White Sand. Quite untrue. This is like saying that Allomancy requires no Investiture on the part of the user, it's using the Investiture in the metal. 15 hours ago, alder24 said: You gain that connection when you're spiking and when you have a spike in your body - that's why Ruin can talk to you. That...is not how it is portrayed at all. Hemalurgy fractures the soul, making the person with the spike more susceptible to shardic influence, among other mental effects. Ruin could talk to insane people quite well, but with a spike, they became even easier to communicate with. Kelsier could do the exact same thing as a cognitive shadow, though to a far lesser extent. Preservation, meanwhile, could only listen. 15 hours ago, alder24 said: One Shard can be connected to many invested arts. Cultivation has an invested art on Ashyn, has Old Magic, is connected to Radiant Surgebinding and her own Lifebinding. Definition of "how many invested arts are there on a planet" is fluid, it depends on the person defining those words. Lifebinding is entirely unconfirmed and potentially identical to the Old Magic. Also, notably, Ashyn's art is likely just the Old Magic, or what it became on that planet. Spoiler Paleo (paraphrased) Are the Ashynite magic system, in which micro organisms cause diseases and bestow powers, and the Old Magic related? You could sort of see the powers and the disease as a boon and a curse. If so, does the "Old" part come from that? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) Yes, they are related, but the name comes from the magic actually predating spren bonds. Stuttgart signing (May 17, 2019) 15 hours ago, alder24 said: And I think the answer is simple - you need to be connected to a particular Avatar of Autonomy, and to do that you need to be in the region influenced by that Avatar. This has two notable issues, in my opinion. First is that if you burn a Trellium-Lerasium alloy on, say, Roshar (which seems to be largely free of Autonomy's influence), it seems like nothing would happen. Second is that if you burn a Trellium-Lerasium-iron alloy on Dayside as opposed to a Trellium-Lerasium-steel alloy, it seems like the exact same thing would happen. Do you not believe that two-god-metal-one-base-metal compositions are real alloys, then? 8 hours ago, drunkenbotanist said: I take the above WOB that is pretty recent about Hemalurgy to mean that you can steal powers without involving Ruin, you can carve off bits of a soul and stick them other places. This is similar to how Connection and bonding doesn't always actually involve Honor, but Honor has a system based on bonds. You can bond things without it implicating Honor specifically. But Ruin has a specific form of this called Hemalurgy that is Ruin's. Maybe it's the intent to destroy that is the specific part only, and maybe more likely (in my opinion) it's the whole specific system of bind points and intents and to a degree the effects of metals in Hemalurgy. That is definitely an interesting way to think about it -- saying Hemalurgy isn't to Ruin as Bonding is to Honor, but splicing spiritwebs is instead. That is definitely possible, I'd say. Mainly, because Bondsmithing definitely doesn't seem to be able to do everything Hemalurgy can do, at least not normally -- just the one-sixteenth that has to do with Connection. Also, we have this Spoiler hajas96 Ishar, when fighting Dalinar, showed similar powers to Hemalurgy (stealing the Nahel Bond). Could an unchained Bondsmith steal other stuff from a person? Strength, Breaths, ability to use Allomancy, etc. Brandon Sanderson Among those are things that they could steal. YouTube Spoiler Stream 3 (Dec. 16, 2021) which seems to imply that there are things there that they couldn't steal, though I believe Breaths can't be stolen by Hemalurgy (aside from Returned ones) so I suppose it could just be that. Personally, though, I think that Bondsmithing doesn't actually carve pieces off of souls. It can steal or force a Connection, including a Bond, but the result of doing so would likely not innately rip off Investiture and leave the soul cracked like Hemalurgy does. So I think it's more of the case that it's Honor's version, where it doesn't do such terrible damage and only works with Connection. Editing a spiritweb can be done by several invested arts, including Bondsmithing, but I think that Hemalurgy's version of this is the raw, fundamental, and "true" way of doing so. 8 hours ago, drunkenbotanist said: I don't agree that Hemalurgy is all that unique as a [magic system, practice, invested art, w/e]. You obtain power in a way that aligns with the intent of Ruin. Ruin's investiture in the spiritual realm is what causes a chunk of a spiritweb to be ripped with the intent/key being metal stabbed into someone somewhere. I do not believe that Ruin's Investiture is directly involved in Hemalurgy -- the Investiture in a spike comes directly from the afflicted person's soul, which is primarily composed of Investiture, and some WoBs, like the one you cited, seem to imply that Hemalurgy's existence is almost entirely divorced from Ruin's. The more pressing difference is with this 8 hours ago, drunkenbotanist said: Ruin has a system that allows editing a spirit web, but the ability to use investiture to do so is not restricted to Ruin. I almost think it's kind of the opposite, in a way -- the ability to not use Investiture to do so does appear to be restricted to Hemalurgy. I find the best comparison here to be again Bonding, since you need no Investiture to Bond something, but every invested art that can force or mimic a Bond is more restricted and does indeed require Investiture to do so (except for Hemalurgy, you could say, but imo that doesn't technically force or mimic a Bond since it just moves it from one place to another without breaking it). Philosophically, I would say that there are these fundamental arcane systems to the Cosmere, each of which can be "hacked" by invested arts through use of Investiture, but can also be done entirely Investiture-free by using the proper Intent. I would wonder whether Yolish Lightweaving requires any internal Investiture, since if it doesn't (instead perhaps using ambient Investiture), it would be quite the striking vindication of the notion. Edited September 3, 2023 by MistbornMathematician added ashyn portion 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drunkenbotanist Posted September 3, 2023 Report Share Posted September 3, 2023 3 hours ago, MistbornMathematician said: I almost think it's kind of the opposite, in a way -- the ability to not use Investiture to do so does appear to be restricted to Hemalurgy. I find the best comparison here to be again Bonding, since you need no Investiture to Bond something, but every invested art that can force or mimic a Bond is more restricted and does indeed require Investiture to do so (except for Hemalurgy, you could say, but imo that doesn't technically force or mimic a Bond since it just moves it from one place to another without breaking it). Philosophically, I would say that there are these fundamental arcane systems to the Cosmere, each of which can be "hacked" by invested arts through use of Investiture, but can also be done entirely Investiture-free by using the proper Intent. I would wonder whether Yolish Lightweaving requires any internal Investiture, since if it doesn't (instead perhaps using ambient Investiture), it would be quite the striking vindication of the notion. I basically disagree with everything you say here lol and think maybe you should make a post outlining what you want to say about Hemalurgy only first? And try to keep it separate from lerasium and things you're thinking about 16 types of powers? Allomancy and Hemalurgy work very similarly. Allomancy: someone swallows specific metal. This combination of the metal used and the intent causes a bit of Preservation's power to be pulled from the spiritual realm to do a specific thing, determined by intent and the metal used. Hemalurgy: someone is stabbed with a bit of metal. The combination of where you stab the metal and what metal you use and the intent causes ~somehow (but specifically involving Ruin)~ a bit of the targets spiritweb to be ripped off. It does not mean that Ruin is investing either the victim or the stabber, but instead the magic of Hemalurgy takes place in the spiritual realm moving bits of souls around. (I'm just gonna as an aside say that while we don't have as much WOB on the mechanics of this, every bit of info we have says this act of slicing and dicing is Ruin's) Now, in allomancy, Preservation's power doesn't care every time some rando swallows a quarter. To be noticed by the power, you have to have a little bit of Preservation's investiture in you. So allomancer's are a little more invested than a nonallomancer. In Hemalurgy, the intent to do hemalurgy when you are stabbing is sufficient to be noticed by the power. This difference isn't crazy to me. In awakening, all the power is given to people up front when they're born and Endowment isn't involved except to hand out more breaths. All the different shards have unique ways of obtaining access to their magics, and these are informed by the nature of the shard, per WOB. Hemalurgy doesn't exist without Ruin. It can be used anywhere in the cosmere just like allomancy can, because the power can be accessed anywhere in the cosmere. It just doesn't require a hunk of Preservation's investiture up front to get any results. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alder24 Posted September 3, 2023 Report Share Posted September 3, 2023 8 hours ago, MistbornMathematician said: As the WoB you cited below shows, people would absolutely disagree about their use of that term as a synonym. Notably, Khriss herself would disagree. That's why I said Rosharan would call it Surgebinding, not Khriss. I wanted to point out that people are using many different terms to name the same phenomena. 8 hours ago, MistbornMathematician said: And no direct example that Bonding as a whole is of Honor -- yet it makes a considerable amount of sense. I disagree - Feruchemist tapping duraluminmind doesn't invoke Honor. Preservation snapping people into Mistings doesn't invoke Honor. AonDor forging connection in any way doesn't invoke Honor - those are done through different Shards, not Honor. 8 hours ago, MistbornMathematician said: The point is that he had more besides. More, yes, but not in a way you want it to have. Honor can't pop up another Surge into existence just like that. It's predetermined in some way, and it depends on what people perceive as fundamental forces. Shards can't switch invested arts. Spoiler Argent Spren grant control over surges because surges are perceived as fundamental powers on Roshar. Would other Cognitive beings grant different powers based on what they perceive to be fundamental? Such as electromagnetism is on Earth? Brandon Sanderson It is plausible, although this was set up in a specific way. Argent By Honor or Adonalsium? Brandon Sanderson RAFO on that. Set up might be the wrong word. There were seeds that caused this to happen the way it did. Argent The Surgebinding thing? Brandon Sanderson Yes, specifically... Those influenced what people perceived as fundamental forces. JordanCon 2018 (April 22, 2018) 8 hours ago, MistbornMathematician said: Kelsier's comments after holding the power of Preservation contradict this notion that Rashek could not have understood Hemalurgy while holding the power of Preservation without Ruin. Yes, Rashek did get an instinctive understanding of Metallic Arts, including Hemalurgy. I think it was said somewhere in HoA that Ruin whispered to him more about Hemalurgy, allowing him to create those 3 Hemalurgic Constructs he did, but I can't find it now so I don't know anymore. Understanding Hemalurgy isn't the same as practice. HoA ch 9 epigraphs: Quote Allomancy was, indeed, born with the mists. Or, at least, Allomancy began at the same time as the mists' first appearances. When Rashek took the power at the Well of Ascension, he became aware of certain things. Some were whispered to him by Ruin; others were granted to him as an instinctive part of the power. One of these was an understanding of the Three Metallic Arts. He knew, for instance, that the nuggets of metal in the Chamber of Ascension would make those who ingested them into Mistborn. These were, after all, fractions of the very power in the Well itself. HoA ch 44 epighraph: Quote Each spike, positioned very carefully, can determine how the recipient's body is changed by Hemalurgy. A spike in one place creates a monstrous, near-mindless beast. In another place, a spike will create a crafty—yet homicidal—Inquisitor. Without the instinctive knowledge granted by taking the power at the Well of Ascension, Rashek would never have been able to use Hemalurgy. With his mind expanded, and with a little practice, he was able to intuit where to place spikes that would create the servants he wanted. It is a little-known fact that the Inquisitors' torture chambers were actually Hemalurgic laboratories. The Lord Ruler was constantly trying to develop new breeds of servant. It is a testament to Hemalurgy's complexity that, despite a thousand years of trying, he never managed to create anything with it beyond the three kinds of creatures he developed during those few brief moments holding the power. 8 hours ago, MistbornMathematician said: One might argue that the entirety of the illusion perpetuated upon Yumi was, in fact, a form of Lightweaving. However, this is unclear. That's not Lightweaving, that's because the Shroud is formed out of Cognitive Shadows, who are very susceptible to perception - the Father Machine controls them and forces this form onto them. 8 hours ago, MistbornMathematician said: I believe this was stated to be something of an unintentional side effect of the merger, but I could not find that WoB. I also could not find any WoB stating the opposite, that Harmony did it purposefully. Do you have a source you're going from? I said like in the next sentence that Harmony did this subconsciously, not intentionally. It was explained in TLM Ars Arcanum. Quote Modern souls, however, seem to simply reject spikes of this magnitude. Further research is required, but I believe that this has something to do with the nature of Ruin’s subservience to Preservation in the current dual vessel known as Harmony. The level of corruption of a soul that was possible in ancient days is no longer viable; if too many spikes are added, souls stop gaining powers. Marsh doesn’t think this is a conscious decision on Harmony’s part. Indeed, I think this is beyond the conscious abilities of even a Shard. Now I see the last part is very interesting, disproving your theory - Shards don't have that much power over their invested arts. 8 hours ago, MistbornMathematician said: However, I'm not sure why you think Surgebinding requires following Honor's and Cultivation's intent. It does - you have to bond to use it. Even Honorblades need to be bonded to be used. 8 hours ago, MistbornMathematician said: If you were running around on Ashyn before all of the rules got put in place, breathing in Stormlight and setting things on fire, that doesn't seem to be nearly the same sort of similarity of Intent as running a spike through someone's heart or endowing an inanimate object with life. We have no idea what Shard Ashynite invested art was aligned with, it was most likely Cultivation based, as per WoB Cultivation was at some time on that planet and the magic system isn't exactly the same as it used to be - it changed. We know it wasn't Surgebinding, but Rosharan would call it that way, just like they would call AonDor Surgebinding. Ishar having powers of Ashynite Bondsmith were likely not from Honor. But Ashyn is simply fully unknown to us right now. Spoiler Questioner You have talked about writing a book about Ashyn, the first planet in the Rosharan system. You said that they have a magic system based on disease, but they are currently without a Shard. Can you tell us what the source of that magic system is? Brandon Sanderson A lot of the magic systems in the cosmere, I kind of in my head differentiate kind of the primary worlds and the secondary worlds. And even on the secondary worlds, there is magic. And any place that a Shard has been in presence is gonna leave behind an aftereffect, but it's not always that. I would call most of the magic on Ashyn Cultivation-based, most likely. And Cultivation's in the system, but has only briefly been to that planet. But it doesn't mean that... basically, it's kind of the level of Investiture. If you go to Scadrial, on Scadrial, you're gonna have a high percentage of the population, cosmereologically, that are gonna have access to one of the Hemalurgic [Metallic] arts, right? Same thing on Roshar. And indeed, the people are going to be Invested on a level that is beyond the others. This is my in-world canon reason that people just don't come down with colds very often or have tooth decay very often, and things like that. On the primary Shardworlds, we're talking about people who are just naturally, highly Invested. All the other worlds, though, you're still gonna have the occasional pop-up of magic, here and there. You're still gonna have effects of being in the cosmere, and things like that. Just much smaller chances. And the magic's probably going to be less likely to be planet-destroying potential, and things like that, like happened on Ashyn. Dragonsteel Mini-Con 2021 (Nov. 23, 2021) Spoiler R'Shara So on Ashyn, was the magic system always diseased based? Brandon Sanderson That was the diseased based magic. R'Shara Yeah, before- Brandon Sanderson I'll RAFO that. It isn't exactly the same as it was. Skyward release party (Nov. 6, 2018) 8 hours ago, MistbornMathematician said: I have seen that suggested before, but it's not quite as cut-and-dry as you suggest here. True, but that is very logical to me, enough to make this very likely. 8 hours ago, MistbornMathematician said: What we do know is that the Investiture in the spikes themselves is the Investiture found in souls, with that Investiture being ripped off of the soul and invested into the metal. We also know that Hemalurgy can "fool" a bond, meaning that there is no thematic reason why a Shard whose power naturally fuels a particular art wouldn't continue to do so. Corruption is very likely to happen with spiking - we saw that with Trellium spikes, their eyes were sometimes glowing red, indicating corruption, and Trellium spikes had red veins on them. Not every corruption is red - Nightblood bleeds out black, corrupted investiture (likely Ruin's investiture based on WoB), I see it very likely that the act of spiking corrupts stolen investiture with Ruin's investiture and this is planted into your soul. That's why spikes repel Mists, as they contain Ruin's investiture, that's why they grant connection to Ruin, that's why I believe that Allomancy granted with spikes is powered by Ruin, not Preservation. 9 hours ago, MistbornMathematician said: The second WoB you cite is very weird, and it has two notable oddities: the first is saying Lift creates Stormlight, not Lifelight, That WoB was 2 years before the RoW release, where the term "Lifelight" first appeared. That's why he said Stromlight. 9 hours ago, MistbornMathematician said: I spent a fair bit trying to find some WoB that says that normal compounding specifically draws the additional power from Preservation, but I couldn't find one -- do you know if there is such a confirmation? Yes it does, normal compounding uses Allomancy to fuel attributes of Feruchemy. And normal Allomancy is fueled directly by Preservation. Spoiler djscrub Since burning Feruchemically charged metal seems to require a choice between getting the Allomantic or Feruchemical property (e.g., Miles only sees gold ghosts when he wants to, not as a side effect of compounded healing), is there any special advantage to compounding pewter and tin, where the Allomantic and Feruchemical use is the same? Is their compounding even stronger than normal compounding because you can tap both power sources simultaneously, or maybe because Preservation is particularly attuned to providing those powers through those metals? Brandon Sanderson Remember that compounding is a "hack" of the magic. You're looking to fool the magics, and use one to power the other. The value in it is that you can use Allomantic power to fuel Feruchemy. It's like hooking a power cord up to a device that, up to that point, you'd powered by using a hand crank. Worldbuilders AMA (Dec. 3, 2015) Spoiler Brandon Sanderson Atium's Mechanism Atium is, indeed, different from the other metals. When you burn most Allomantic metals, it opens a conduit through which you can draw upon Preservation's power and use it in very specific ways. Atium doesn't do that. Atium is, itself, a fuel. When you burn it, the metal itself provides the power. A subtle distinction, I know, but it has to do with where the power is coming from. Most Allomancy is fueled by Preservation, but atium and malatium are fueled by Ruin. This metal doesn't quite belong on the table where it has been placed. The Hero of Ages Annotations (April 1, 2010) 9 hours ago, MistbornMathematician said: If not, then perhaps burning Feruchemically-stored Investiture does indeed get that power from Ruin, which would be a strong sign of the relationship between the two. Only when Allomancy is granted by Hemalurgy (in my opinion), as you're burning metal, that's Allomancy, not Feruchemy anymore. 9 hours ago, MistbornMathematician said: Energy, matter, and Investiture can be turned into each other, this is indeed true. However, this is not what is going on in Feruchemy. If I store, say, taste into a tinmind, I do not change in weight, nor do I change in energy. My soul is not being drained into this tinmind. So where does this Investiture come from? Your physical taste buds are changed in some way, or your spirit is altered - we don't know the precise mechanism of Feruchemy, but we do know that investiture comes from your own body, mind and soul. It isn't in any way external. If a tiny bit of your soul, responsible for tasting, gets drained a bit (not fully as you can't store 100% of attribute except for memory) and that is put into metalminds, or maybe your taste receptors get physically smaller, or nerve signals to them get stored - I don't know what is stored here but it something is from your body, no investiture is coming from outside and is put into metalminds. That's why Feruchemy is generally so weak - you need to spend a lot of time storing to have some use of it - compounding makes it much, much stronger, gives you so much more attributes, but it is still powered by Allomancy, which compared to other invested arts, give you very little amount of investiture. But the change is so big, as your body and soul can only fuel Feruchemy so much. Something like heat is easier to understand - you convert energy of your atoms in your body into investiture. The only external investiture involved in Feruchemy is the one responsible for changing your energy into investiture - but that is used up and isn't stored. But what you put in metalminds is what you get and that comes from your body, not from external sources. That's why it's end-neutral. Spoiler Questioner So for the Old Magic, in this classification system of end-positive, end-neutral, and end-negative, where would that fall under? Brandon Sanderson So, almost every magic in the cosmere is end-positive, almost every magic is relying upon an external source of Investiture to power it. So that phrasing is mostly more relevant to Scadrial than anywhere else, because that concept is how I'm dealing with things like the laws of thermodynamics, and even what they call end-neutral is relying a little bit on the power of Investiture to facilitate. So even an end-neutral magic system as they define it on Scadrial is actually not end-neutral. What you get put in you get out, but the power is facilitating that transfer… So that phrasing is kind of a... Take that as a science on.. Scadrial that does not extrapolate well, and may not even be 100% accurate. Moderator That would have been a great thing to know before we did the cosmere magic panel. *laughter* Brandon Sanderson I look at it as, is an Investiture externally powering the magic, and if you look at Allomancy, yes it is. You are drawing that power out. Feruchemy, you are putting Investiture in from your own body, it's your energy transferring to Investiture, which is being stored, which you are then drawing out, and things like that. But that changing forms is facilitated by the magic. Whereas you're stealing stuff with-- So you could look, for instance at the magic on Nalthis, you could look at that one as being-- as kind of working as end-negative, meaning "I am taking it away from someone else", or end-positive depending on if you're the one receiving it or not. So again, it's a phrasing that can be useful as a tool but doesn't scale well to the other magics. JordanCon 2016 (April 23, 2016) 9 hours ago, MistbornMathematician said: In short, the Investiture in a metalmind most certainly does not come from your innate Investiture, any matter in your body, or any energy your body produces (at least not from all of the metals, I assume storing Investiture does what it says on the tin). Feruchemy is end-neutral, there is no investiture coming form any external source. That's what end-neutral means. It's powered by your body, your mind, your spirit. Ars Arcanum: Quote Feruchemy is an end-neutral art, meaning that power is neither gained nor lost 9 hours ago, MistbornMathematician said: Quite untrue. This is like saying that Allomancy requires no Investiture on the part of the user, it's using the Investiture in the metal. The investiture in Allomancy comes from Preservation into your body. I don't know if investiture from White Sand goes into your body or is simply used up from the Sand directly. But that was weak nitpick. 9 hours ago, MistbornMathematician said: That...is not how it is portrayed at all. Hemalurgy fractures the soul, making the person with the spike more susceptible to shardic influence, among other mental effects. Yes, and yes, but the spike itself grants connection to Ruin, like Trellium spikes connect to Autonomy. Plus, Hemalurgy arised from interactions between Shards and Scadrial. Spoiler Agate I can guess two possible options for the kandra. 1. God Sazed endowed the gift of presence on the now mistwraiths. 2. Some of the kandra survived in the cave with the Terrisman and people of the city, along with the small mistwraiths, these are re-born with the spikes they pulled out during the resolution. I can imagine too that some kandra on assignment may have hidden in the shelters with the rest of humanity. Brandon Sanderson The kandra. Yes, they live. The people were smart enough, eventually, to replace their spikes. (And there were a couple who were on assignment who made it to storage caches.) However, there will likely never be any more of them, since Hemalurgy is required to make them. They are now some of the few people who can communicate directly with Sazed, who—like Ruin—can whisper to people most easily when they are connected to him via spikes. With some speculation, you can probably guess what kind of roles the kandra will end up playing in future books. Kaimipono On a broader level, is Hemalurgy officially dead, then? Or is it still extant in some Ruin-free (but still messy) form? (If it's gone, is there any imbalance since Preservation's magic power is kept and Ruin's isn't?) Brandon Sanderson Is Hemalurgy dead? No, not at all. It, like the other two powers, was not created by Ruin or Preservation, but by the natural state of the world and its interaction with the gods who created it. It still requires the same method of creation, but very few people are aware of how it works. Hero of Ages Q&A - Time Waster's Guide (Oct. 15, 2008) 9 hours ago, MistbornMathematician said: Preservation, meanwhile, could only listen. And talk to those strongly connected to him - like Vin to Elend or Kel to Vin and Spook. 9 hours ago, MistbornMathematician said: Lifebinding is entirely unconfirmed and potentially identical to the Old Magic. Also, notably, Ashyn's art is likely just the Old Magic, or what it became on that planet. Ashynite magic and Old Magic aren't the same, they are RELATED, because they both originate from Cultivation. Lifebinding, while unconfirmed, seems to be a very solid speculation, and we know for sure there is unused Cultivation magic system on Roshar - whatever it's named: Spoiler Dunkelheit Khriss mentions in the Ars Arcanum that her research suggests another set of abilities more esoteric than the [Voidbindings]. You have said before that the only magic we haven't really seen is Voidbinding, but you have also said that no one has used Cultivation magic on-screen (not counting boons and curses). Is this other set of esoteric abilities Cultivation's magic, and is it called Lifebinding? Brandon Sanderson RAFO! What a great question! What an excellent question. Remember that when I originally conceived The Stormlight Archive, I was thinking of thirty magic systems. And I decided that that was instead three groups of ten, and I wasn't going to call it thirty magic systems. And indeed, that's even vague, because are fabrials their own magic system? What is going on? But anyway, who knows. RAFO! YouTube Spoiler Stream 5 (Dec. 2, 2022) 9 hours ago, MistbornMathematician said: This has two notable issues, in my opinion. First is that if you burn a Trellium-Lerasium alloy on, say, Roshar (which seems to be largely free of Autonomy's influence), it seems like nothing would happen. In that case you get connected directly to Autonomy, getting her main invested art. Side note, Roshar is influenced somewhat by her: Spoiler Questioner We have some idea that Autonomy is fiddling around in Roshar and in Scadrial. Brandon Sanderson And other places. Questioner Considering her involvement with the Ghostbloods: has she directly interacted with Kelsier/Thaidakar? Brandon Sanderson RAFO. Questioner Whether she has or not, what is her opinion of Kelsier? Brandon Sanderson You’re asking, directly Autonomy, not one of her Avatars? Directly, Autonomy likes Kelsier and respects Kelsier. Autonomy is a fan, shall we say. Dragonsteel 2022 (Nov. 14, 2022) 10 hours ago, MistbornMathematician said: Second is that if you burn a Trellium-Lerasium-iron alloy on Dayside as opposed to a Trellium-Lerasium-steel alloy, it seems like the exact same thing would happen. Whatever happens it wont give you invested arts. Atium-electrum alloy can't be burnt by non-Allomancers, even by non-electrum Mistings. I personally think that while god metals in general can be burn by anyone (whatever Brandon means by that), alloys can't and you have to be tied to the Shard to burn them (as Mistborn would have a hard time burning a Shardblade, which is an alloy, or lack tie to it to burn it). Lerasium seems to be an odd one, as anyone on Scadrial can burn it and its alloys, without being an Allomancer. In my opinion it is very likely that contaminating Lerasium with another god metal, makes it lose this property (maybe with the exception of Atium for reasons). But that's all speculation, we know next to nothing about god metals and their alloys. 9 hours ago, MistbornMathematician said: Do you not believe that two-god-metal-one-base-metal compositions are real alloys, then? They are real, but I don't believe they have effects like you want them to have. What if Shard manifests more than 16 magic systems? I don't see anything that would prevent them from doing that - in fact one can argue that Preservation has done this already - 16 Allomantic powers + 16 Feruchemical powers shared with Ruin, or Honor's 10+10 whatever he has on Roshar. What If Preservation manifests an Avatar on Nalthis, or invests on Nalthis, creating a new magic system? Which alloy would give you that power? You've already used all 16 base metals to get Allomancy, there is no one left that would give you Preservation's magic from Nalthis. Shards' power is infinite and omnipresent - there is no limit for them manifesting Avatars. If the sole presence of Avatar spawns a minor magic system, the Shard can definitely have more than 16 invested arts. I'm simply rejecting your idea that Shards can manifest only 16 invested arts, and that Lerasium+god metal+base metal gives you specific invested art. Big WoB about Avatars and how Autonomy creates them: Spoiler ReadAndFindOut In 2014, Brandon said First of the Sun - the planet in Sixth of the Dusk - is a minor Shardworld, in that it does not have a Shard present (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/103-salt-lake-city-comic-con-2014/#e1010). However, we've now gotten a WoB saying that Patji - the Father island - IS a Shard (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/256-oathbringer-london-signing/#e8606). Patji was a Shard, but isn't during SotD? Or did we finally get confirmation on that elusive "Survival Shard"? What do you guys think? Brandon Sanderson I stand by them. Though, as always, quotes and WoBs at signings aren't always as deliberately thought out as I'd like them to be. Answering questions on the fly can be challenging, and my phrasing can be bad in retrospect. But no Shard was in residence on First of the Sun during the events of that story. The Investiture on that planet is residue, normal Investiture from Adonalsium. Everything happening there could happen with or without a Shard present. Indeed, I would say that no Shard was ever "in residence" on First of the Sun. The being called Patji still exists, and is a Shard of Adonalsium. Shards in the past have been interested in First of the Sun, and have meddled in small ways there. (Like they have on a lot of Shardworlds.) Note that I might have been a little misleading in the first quote by bringing up Threnody, which is a real corner case in the cosmere because of uncommon events there. That said, I'm sure that every story I write about a planet will bring up the quirks and unusual interactions of the magic there, because that's kind of what I do. (First of the Sun has its own oddities, as mentioned in Arcanum Unbounded.) Every planet is likely to end up as a corner case in some way, just like every person is distinctive in their own way, and never fully fits expectations. I still consider one of the major dividing lines between "major" and "minor" Shardworlds (other than Shard residence) to be in strength of access to the magic, and control over it. I intend the minor Shardworlds to involve interactions with the magic as setting--coming back to spren, you could have a minor Shardworld with people who use, befriend, even bond spren. (Or the local equivalent--Seon, Aviar, etc.) But you'd never see power on the level of the city of Elantris, the actions of a Bondsmith, or even the broad power suite of a Mistborn. But, as ever, the cosmere is a work in progress. The needs of telling a great story trump things I've said about what I'm planning. (I do try as much as I can to avoid having two texts contradict one another. And when they do, that's often a lapse on my part.) Oversleep Wait. I'm confused. So the Investiture on First of the Sun is associated with a Shard or is it residue, normal Investiture from Adonalsium? Cause the question was a follow up (on this) where you revealed that all Investiture in Cosmere got assigned to a Shard even if it wasn't part of a Shard. And then you said that the one on First of the Sun is directly associated with one of the Shards (and since later you revealed Patji to be an avatar of Autonomy (also, what are avatars and how do they work?)) we took it to mean that at one point Autonomy Invested in First of the Sun. But now you're saying it didn't? If there was no Shard ever on First of the Sun but Patji is a Shard/avatar of a Shard then where is Patji, actually? Could you please clarify all that? Brandon Sanderson So the Investiture on First of the Sun is associated with a Shard or is it residue, normal Investiture from Adonalsium?" The reason I have so much trouble answering these questions (and you'll see me struggling to get an answer in the 10-15 seconds I have when someone asks me in a signing line) is because this isn't an either or. Is this computer I'm using matter associated with Earth, the Big Bang, or such-and-such star that went supernova long ago? Well, it's probably all three. When people ask, "What Shard is this Investiture associated with" it gets very complicated. Shards influence and tweak certain Investiture, giving it a kind of spin or magnetism, but all Investiture ever predates the Shattering--and in the cosmere matter, energy, and Investiture are one thing. I always imagine Investiture having certain states, certain magnetisms if you will, associated with certain aspects of Adonalsium. So it's all "assigned" to a Shard--because it's always been associated with that Shard. To Investiture, Adonalsium's Shattering meant everything and nothing at the same time. We generally mean the term "Invested" to mean a Shard has taken permanent residence in a location, a kind of base of operations--but at the same time, this is meaningless, since distance has no meaning on the Spiritual Realm, where most Shards are. So imprisonment of a Shard like Ruin or Odium is a crude expression--but the best we have. Autonomy never "Invested" on First of the Sun. But even answering (as someone else asked) if they created an avatar without visiting is a difficult thing to explain--because even explaining how a Shard travels (when motion is irrelevant) is difficult to manage. It's a subject that I intend to be up for debate, discussion, and argument by in-world philosophers and arcanists. You can see why I have such troubles explaining these things at signings--and why I fail when I try to, considering the time limitations and (often) fatigue limitations placed upon me. These are concepts I intend to spend entire, lengthy epic volumes explaining and exploring. Let's say you were Autonomy, and you have--through expanding and exploring your understanding--found a gathering of Investiture that has always been there, you always knew about, but still didn't actually recognize until the moment you considered and explored it. (Because even though your power is infinite, accessing and using that infinity is beyond your reach.) Were you "Invested" there? No, no more than you're Invested on Roshar, where parts of what were Adonalsium still exist that are associated with you (in the very fabric of matter and existence.) But suddenly, you have a chance to tweak, influence, and do things that were always possible, but which you never could do because you knew, but didn't know, at the same time. And...I'm already into WAY more than I want to be typing this out right now. If it's confusing, it's because it's practically impossible for me to explain these things in a short span of time. I'm going to leave it here, understanding that no, I haven't fully explained your question. (I didn't even get into what avatars are, what Patji was, and what happened to Patji the being--and how that relates to Patji the island.) But hopefully this kind of starts to point the right direction, though I probably should have just left this question alone because I bet this post is going to raise more questions than it answers... Overlord Jebus You've confused things so much now. We thought we had a pretty good grasp of this whole Patji situation (Autonomy visited the planet at some point, got themselves all Invested and created an avatar which is called Patji by the locals). Now you're saying no Shard has ever visited there? And that the pool would have existed if no Shard had ever interfered? But that Patji still exists and is a Shard? Does that mean Autonomy edited First of the Sun from afar without actually going there? And that the pool would have already existed without any intervention? Does this mean it was associated with Autonomy from the beginning? I'm really confused now. Brandon Sanderson I don't believe I said no Shard had visited. I said no Shard was there during the events of the story. Investiture on First of the Sun predates any Shards fiddling with it. Shards have fiddled with it by the time of the story. I think fandom might be going down too far a rabbit hole on this one. Chaos Are you saying here that Patji is an avatar of Autonomy, or is it a separate Shard and not an avatar of Autonomy? Brandon Sanderson When I said Patji was a Shard, I was meaning Automony--but it is not quite that simple. Take this post to mean "no, you should not be looking toward another Shard for Patji's origins. Autonomy is the one relevant." But Autonomy's relationships with entities like this (not sure entity is the right word, even) is complex. I'm not trying to confuse the issue, though. General Reddit 2018 (March 18, 2018) 10 hours ago, MistbornMathematician said: I believe Breaths can't be stolen by Hemalurgy (aside from Returned ones) Unknown, Brandon hasn't decided yet: Spoiler Questioner With spikes, would you be able to actually transfer Breaths, when they get to the other planets? Brandon Sanderson So spikes rip off pieces of the soul and so Breaths are not going to be part of the soul. You could maybe get a divine Breath but I haven't really decided on regular Breaths, they're kind of stuck there in the Physical Realm which is not a thing that spikes are dealing with. Divine Breath, potentially, because that's something that's actually melding onto your soul. But, you know, when you're using the Breaths they reach through to the Spiritual Realm so, maybe if you got it while the Breaths were kinetic, right, while you're using them, then you might be able to rip them off. I'm not a hundred percent certain on that one. Bystander There's still things to decide upon. Brandon Sanderson Yeah there's still things, like I have to kind of see. My instinct says no right now. But, you know, how they interact is not something that I have-- Yeah. Shadows of Self London UK signing (Oct. 19, 2015) 10 hours ago, MistbornMathematician said: Personally, though, I think that Bondsmithing doesn't actually carve pieces off of souls. It can steal or force a Connection, including a Bond, but the result of doing so would likely not innately rip off Investiture and leave the soul cracked like Hemalurgy does. But connection is investiture, if you're stealing connection, you ripping it off the soul, even with Bondsmithing. We kind of saw that with BAM and all Parsh - imprisoning her ripped connection from their souls. 6 hours ago, drunkenbotanist said: Hemalurgy: someone is stabbed with a bit of metal. The combination of where you stab the metal and what metal you use and the intent causes ~somehow (but specifically involving Ruin)~ a bit of the targets spiritweb to be ripped off. It does not mean that Ruin is investing either the victim or the stabber, but instead the magic of Hemalurgy takes place in the spiritual realm moving bits of souls around. Oh, you're saying that during the spiking process, Ruin provides investiture to remove that piece of soul from the victim and attach it to the spike? The investiture Ruin provides is used only for cutting off and gluing pieces of souls, which are put into spikes. Make sense, it works like Feruchemy, where investiture from SR is provided to transform physical attributes into investiture, and back - but only for that. Spoiler Questioner So for the Old Magic, in this classification system of end-positive, end-neutral, and end-negative, where would that fall under? Brandon Sanderson So, almost every magic in the cosmere is end-positive, almost every magic is relying upon an external source of Investiture to power it. So that phrasing is mostly more relevant to Scadrial than anywhere else, because that concept is how I'm dealing with things like the laws of thermodynamics, and even what they call end-neutral is relying a little bit on the power of Investiture to facilitate. So even an end-neutral magic system as they define it on Scadrial is actually not end-neutral. What you get put in you get out, but the power is facilitating that transfer… So that phrasing is kind of a... Take that as a science on.. Scadrial that does not extrapolate well, and may not even be 100% accurate. Moderator That would have been a great thing to know before we did the cosmere magic panel. *laughter* Brandon Sanderson I look at it as, is an Investiture externally powering the magic, and if you look at Allomancy, yes it is. You are drawing that power out. Feruchemy, you are putting Investiture in from your own body, it's your energy transferring to Investiture, which is being stored, which you are then drawing out, and things like that. But that changing forms is facilitated by the magic. Whereas you're stealing stuff with-- So you could look, for instance at the magic on Nalthis, you could look at that one as being-- as kind of working as end-negative, meaning "I am taking it away from someone else", or end-positive depending on if you're the one receiving it or not. So again, it's a phrasing that can be useful as a tool but doesn't scale well to the other magics. JordanCon 2016 (April 23, 2016) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drunkenbotanist Posted September 3, 2023 Report Share Posted September 3, 2023 Quote But connection is investiture, if you're stealing connection, you ripping it off the soul, even with Bondsmithing. We kind of saw that with BAM and all Parsh - imprisoning her ripped connection from their souls. Oh, you're saying that during the spiking process, Ruin provides investiture to remove that piece of soul from the victim and attach it to the spike? The investiture Ruin provides is used only for cutting off and gluing pieces of souls, which are put into spikes. Make sense, it works like Feruchemy, where investiture from SR is provided to transform physical attributes into investiture, and back - but only for that. Yes exactly 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MistbornMathematician Posted September 3, 2023 Author Report Share Posted September 3, 2023 14 hours ago, drunkenbotanist said: This difference isn't crazy to me. I think the best way to identify the difference is this: Allomancy, and other invested arts, require a direct and physical Connection to the Shard (or Aether) behind it. In general, this means that the user is Invested by that Shard's Investiture. In Hemalurgy and Bonding, this is not the case -- they require a metaphorical Connection to the Shard. The result may be something directly and physically Connected to the Shard in question, such as with Surgebinding, but the important thing to note here is that the Bonding is distinct from the Surgebinding and any similar bond will Invest the human/singer/chasmfiend/chull/etc in question. If Hemalurgy was, for example, a genetic thing like Feruchemy or Allomancy, and in order to make or properly use a Hemalurgic spike you needed to be Invested, then that would be a very significant difference that would make put it in the same category as Allomancy. If Allomancy was usable by anyone who swallowed metal anywhere, then it would be in the same category as Hemalurgy. Does that make a little more sense as to why I think there is such a fundamental difference between the two? 7 hours ago, alder24 said: I disagree - Feruchemist tapping duraluminmind doesn't invoke Honor. Preservation snapping people into Mistings doesn't invoke Honor. AonDor forging connection in any way doesn't invoke Honor - those are done through different Shards, not Honor. And, unless drunkenbotanist is correct, an unchained Bondsmith ripping off a Connection from someone doesn't "invoke" Ruin. If he is, then any action involving forging a Bond would in fact invoke Honor. It does make for an interesting theory in and of itself, doesn't it? 7 hours ago, alder24 said: Honor can't pop up another Surge into existence just like that. It's predetermined in some way Which could be an excellent counterargument to your later suggestions of Shards manifesting new invested arts elsewhere. 7 hours ago, alder24 said: I said like in the next sentence that Harmony did this subconsciously, not intentionally. It was explained in TLM Ars Arcanum. If that particular Ars Arcanum is correct (which, remember, it might not be) it would pose a convincing reason as to why the change to Hemalurgy on a Cosmere-wide level is indeed the natural consequence of Ruin's merger and was in no way caused by Harmony's mind or direct control. The difference between a "subconscious change that cannot be done consciously" and "a natural, involuntary consequence" is nonexistent when viewed externally, after all. 7 hours ago, alder24 said: It does - you have to bond to use it. Even Honorblades need to be bonded to be used. That would be the Bonding part, not the Surgebinding. If that was enough evidence, then using Avair would be identical as far as "Intent" goes. And where does Cultivation show up? You didn't mention that part. 7 hours ago, alder24 said: Ishar having powers of Ashynite Bondsmith were likely not from Honor. Given that Ishar made the Radiants, who indisputably use an invested art of Honor, I do not know why you say his own powers were likely not from Honor. Moreover, wasn't his Bondsmithing from an Honorblade? And isn't it directly stated by the Stormfather that men abused the surges before Honor and Ishar formed the current system? It's possible all of that is wrong, but I wouldn't call that "likely" in the least. 8 hours ago, alder24 said: Yes it does, normal compounding uses Allomancy to fuel attributes of Feruchemy. And normal Allomancy is fueled directly by Preservation. Neither of the WoBs you cite say that compounding draws power from Preservation -- did you copy the wrong thing? Moreover, by the second one, if metalminds are generally filled with Ruin's Investiture, as I claim is likely, it tracks that compounding would draw the power from Ruin. 8 hours ago, alder24 said: Your physical taste buds are changed in some way, or your spirit is altered - we don't know the precise mechanism of Feruchemy, but we do know that investiture comes from your own body, mind and soul. It isn't in any way external. If a tiny bit of your soul, responsible for tasting, gets drained a bit (not fully as you can't store 100% of attribute except for memory) and that is put into metalminds, or maybe your taste receptors get physically smaller, or nerve signals to them get stored The main issue with all of that is that the math simply doesn't track. It would be something like saying you used the power of a nine-volt-battery to make a golf-ball sized clump of antimatter, or (if you do indeed drain the soul itself) using a nine-volt battery to charge another nine-volt battery up without the first nine-volt battery being permanently drained. We know from that WoB and others that the concept of being truly "end-neutral" isn't strictly accurate, despite what people in-universe think. Is it such a jump, then, to say that the math not working isn't a flaw with the magic system but is instead a clue? 8 hours ago, alder24 said: but the spike itself grants connection to Ruin, That WoB does not say that. Instead, it says that people with Hemalurgic spikes have their spiritwebs cracked open significantly more as long as they have the spike in them, and so the people with spikes are drastically more easy to speak to for both Sazed and Ruin before him. Bavadinium spikes blocking Sazed could either be a feature of the god metal itself or a function of all god metal Hemalurgic spikes -- we do not know nearly enough to say it is one or the other. 8 hours ago, alder24 said: Ashynite magic and Old Magic aren't the same, they are RELATED, because they both originate from Cultivation. Lifebinding, while unconfirmed, seems to be a very solid speculation, and we know for sure there is unused Cultivation magic system on Roshar - whatever it's named: "Lifebinding" is most likely to be Old Magic. See any of the WoBs where the magic systems on Roshar are listed, all of which disprove your theory to a resounding degree. Moreover, saying Ashyn's disease-based magic is a type of Old Magic is a very reasonable jump, given that they both share the positive-and-negative structure. 8 hours ago, alder24 said: I personally think that while god metals in general can be burn by anyone (whatever Brandon means by that) The WoBs have gone back and forth on this, but last I saw he said some god metals could be burned by anyone, some couldn't, and their alloys are completely unknown. In fact, Atium itself might not be burnable by non-Allomancers in his current canon. 8 hours ago, alder24 said: I don't see anything that would prevent them from doing that I suppose that is accurate -- currently, there is nothing that we know of that firmly prevents, say, Preservation from coming up with some entirely unrelated invested art somewhere else. However, there is also nothing which you have cited so far that remotely prevents the limit from being true. The examples you list are all things which are entirely consistent with the theory, as I have stated above. 8 hours ago, alder24 said: But connection is investiture, if you're stealing connection, you ripping it off the soul, even with Bondsmithing. We kind of saw that with BAM and all Parsh - imprisoning her ripped connection from their souls. Hence the "and leave the soul cracked" bit. We also know that Hemalurgy also takes significantly more Investiture than just the bit which is the Connection itself, while it may be reasonably assumed that Bondsmithing would not do this. Recall that Hemalurgy leaves the soul absolutely mangled, after all. 8 hours ago, alder24 said: Whatever happens it wont give you invested arts. Atium-electrum alloy can't be burnt by non-Allomancers, even by non-electrum Mistings. I personally think that while god metals in general can be burn by anyone (whatever Brandon means by that), alloys can't and you have to be tied to the Shard to burn them (as Mistborn would have a hard time burning a Shardblade, which is an alloy, or lack tie to it to burn it). Lerasium seems to be an odd one, as anyone on Scadrial can burn it and its alloys, without being an Allomancer. In my opinion it is very likely that contaminating Lerasium with another god metal, makes it lose this property (maybe with the exception of Atium for reasons). But that's all speculation, we know next to nothing about god metals and their alloys. Those gaps you admit to having are some distinct and significant issues with your theory. Being unable to account for those alloys, being unable to identify why Lerasium would be so unusual with its alloys, and needing to invent some hitherto-unseen "true" invested art of Autonomy (along with, I'd imagine, every other non-Preservation Shard, such as with Honor if you're not Connected to a surge) are not small flaws. It is not disproven, of course, but those flaws and gaps do make it far less likely. In other words, your theory has a number of inconsistencies, which (while not impossible) are of course negatives for any theory. Overall, I must confess to not understanding your overall, fundamental issue with this. Way back at the start, you said that your objection was due to WoBs which flat-out disproved the notion that Hemalurgy was not a true invested art. But, from the ones that you've cited, nothing comes close to actual proof -- at best, you have convincing arguments that it's unlikely. It's enough to make me question exactly what your definition of invested art is. That is why I am extremely interested as to how you would classify those twenty items I listed so long ago. If you would be so kind, could you please classify them for me? It would be incredibly helpful for my understanding of what you're trying to say. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drunkenbotanist Posted September 4, 2023 Report Share Posted September 4, 2023 (edited) Quote And, unless drunkenbotanist is correct, an unchained Bondsmith ripping off a Connection from someone doesn't "invoke" Ruin. If he is, then any action involving forging a Bond would in fact invoke Honor. It does make for an interesting theory in and of itself, doesn't it? I think you misread what I wrote. I maybe get why you interpreted it that way, but I think it's because you have some deep assumptions about how the magics are working that no one else does and you have only halfway spelled them out. I actually firmly agree that Ishar's actions in no way invoke Ruin. Hemalurgy involves stealing chunks of souls in an organized magic system. It doesn't mean that all stealing of chunks of souls involves Ruin's magic system. Just as every bond formation or alteration of connection doesn't involve Honor's magic system/s. Quote Neither of the WoBs you cite say that compounding draws power from Preservation Compounding causes allomancy to fuel feruchemical attributes. Instead of iron meaning "pull" when burned by an allomancer, feruchemical iron means "make heavier" or w/e. The form of the power changes. Allomancy is the source of the extra power -> Preservation is the source of the extra power. Quote Overall, I must confess to not understanding your overall, fundamental issue with this. Way back at the start, you said that your objection was due to WoBs which flat-out disproved the notion that Hemalurgy was not a true invested art. But, from the ones that you've cited, nothing comes close to actual proof -- at best, you have convincing arguments that it's unlikely. It's enough to make me question exactly what your definition of invested art is. That is why I am extremely interested as to how you would classify those twenty items I listed so long ago. The term "invested art" needs a hard concrete definition that contrasts it from other manifestations of cosmere magic only in the situation where your "leap" theory of "each shard can only provide 16 invested arts" is true. But most confusingly Quote I think the best way to identify the difference is this: Allomancy, and other invested arts, require a direct and physical Connection to the Shard (or Aether) behind it. In general, this means that the user is Invested by that Shard's Investiture. In Hemalurgy and Bonding, this is not the case -- they require a metaphorical Connection to the Shard. I do not understand what is happening now. How can this be "the best way" to identify cosmere mechanics? "metaphorical Connection?" We know what the requirement for Hemalurgy is: Intent. Intent is a mechanical part of invested arts/magic/whatever. Is intent your "metaphorical Connection? I don't see how this helps to describe anything because it just seems like it's conflating two things that are different: Intent and Connection. Hemalurgy requires intent, it requires metal, and it requires placement. Quote Questioner Allomancy requires, you need to be either a Misting or a Mistborn to be able to do that. But Hemalurgy you just need to stab someone through the heart. So what would stop someone on Roshar from using Hemalurgy, because it's not Innate? Do you have to be in proximity to Ruin? Brandon Sanderson Intent is a big part of a lot of the magics, including Hemalurgy, meaning that you need to know what you're doing. Or somebody needs to-- There needs to be Intent involved in what's happening to you. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/96/#e3214 Edited September 4, 2023 by drunkenbotanist 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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