The connection between Taln and Honor’s death

[slavagh]

This whole theory stems from my desire to redeem Tanavast. Because, even if what the rest of the heralds did to Taln was cruel, I can understand them. They were broken after thousands of years of torture. For Tanavast to not do something to help abandoned Taln is beyond evil. And I think he did something, something noble and stupid.

Up until recently, I assumed Honor's death was a consequence of trapping Odium in the Rosharan system. But the timeline doesn’t work. Odium is trapped on Roshar for at least 4500 years. And that is a minimum. It may be even before humans came on Roshar. There is no evidence that he is not trapped when he manipulated Ishar on Ashyn. And that many years is slightly pushing the term ‘slow death’ of the shard. I think something happened between Aharietiam and Recreance that directly led to Honor’s death.

First, I need to make a huge assumption. The Oathpact needs 10 people not only to share the pain of torture but to protect them from ‘magical’ insanity. The assumption is that if the heralds hadn’t abandoned Oathpact, they would still be broken people, but without that ‘magical’ madness.

So the theory is that Tanavast as the vessel joined the Oathpact alongside Taln. Or at least shared his pain of torture. But only two of them weren’t enough. Over time they both went mad (hence Honor’s ravings during the Recrenesance). That made the vessel of the shard weak and open to attack from Odium. Connection to Taln also made Tanavast partly connected to Braise.

As a bonus, it can explain why Odium was suspiciously inactive after Aharietiam. Why hasn’t he done the same thing the Mishram did – ignore the trapped fused and provide singers with the forms of power? It is better than nothing. And he can’t be trapped as BAM was. Tanavast actions bound Odium to the Oathpact and trapped him on Braise after Aharietiam.

[alder24]

5 minutes ago, slavagh said:

Up until recently, I assumed Honor's death was a consequence of trapping Odium in the Rosharan system. But the timeline doesn’t work. Odium is trapped on Roshar for at least 4500 years. And that is a minimum. It may be even before humans came on Roshar. There is no evidence that he is not trapped when he manipulated Ishar on Ashyn. And that many years is slightly pushing the term ‘slow death’ of the shard. I think something happened between Aharietiam and Recreance that directly led to Honor’s death.

At least 7000 Rosharan years since the First Desolation. And it's very likely still can be the case, as Honor's death was a very protracted process. It could take thousands of years.

Mistborn spoilers and WoB:

Spoiler

Just like Preservation started dying the moment he imprisoned Ruin, thousands of years before books.

Spoiler

Questioner

Dalinar's visions are the memories of Honor, correct?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. Yes, they are things specifically created by Honor...

Questioner

Does that mean that the Recreance happened before Honor's death... since Dalinar sees it?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. But Honor's death, like Preservation's death, is a protracted event.

Oathbringer release party (Nov. 13, 2017)

 

 

10 minutes ago, slavagh said:

First, I need to make a huge assumption. The Oathpact needs 10 people not only to share the pain of torture but to protect them from ‘magical’ insanity. The assumption is that if the heralds hadn’t abandoned Oathpact, they would still be broken people, but without that ‘magical’ madness.

I don't think there is any proof for this. This insanity comes from living longer than humanly possible and dying multiple times, and it would still manifest, because this is the nature of CS. It would take something like stealing their memories to save them from this madness and we know from books that Heralds have good recollection of the past, while not always able to accurately tell the passage of time.

13 minutes ago, slavagh said:

So the theory is that Tanavast as the vessel joined the Oathpact alongside Taln. Or at least shared his pain of torture. But only two of them weren’t enough. Over time they both went mad (hence Honor’s ravings during the Recrenesance). That made the vessel of the shard weak and open to attack from Odium. Connection to Taln also made Tanavast partly connected to Braise.

You really think that whatever tortured Heralds could affect a Shard, an infinite pool of investiture, to that degree? I highly doubt this. I doubt Honor would be willing to do something like that in the first place, Shards rarely directly intervene in the Physical Realm, and we don't know what Oathpact allowed Honor to do. Also that would massively deminished Taln's achievement of withstanding 4500 years of torture.

19 minutes ago, slavagh said:

As a bonus, it can explain why Odium was suspiciously inactive after Aharietiam. Why hasn’t he done the same thing the Mishram did – ignore the trapped fused and provide singers with the forms of power? It is better than nothing. And he can’t be trapped as BAM was. Tanavast actions bound Odium to the Oathpact and trapped him on Braise after Aharietiam.

Because between Desolations Odium was trapped on Braize just like Fused were, he couldn't influence Roshar in almost any way, especially in a direct way like BAM. Odium being bound to Braize is not from Oathpact, but from his entrapment by Honor.

Spoiler

Questioner

So Odium is trapped on a planet near Roshar. Now that Talenelat is no longer being bound wherever he's at, does that mean that Odium's imminence is--

Brandon Sanderson

Taln still is keeping to the Oathpact. So there is that. But [Odium's] being bound is greater than the Oathpact.

Shadows of Self Lansing signing (Oct. 13, 2015)

 

To add more, breaking of the Oathpact isn't related that much to Honor's death, your theory would make it a direct consequence of abandoning Oathpact, which would contradict this WoB:

Spoiler

Wetlander

Was Odium able to Splinter Honor because the Heralds abandoned the Oathpact?

Brandon Sanderson

Good question. Um, their abandonment of the Oathpact is related... but mostly tangentially. If I was pinned down on that, I would say no.

Wetlander

Is there any of the Oathpact still functioning because of Taln's continued participation?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, indeed.

Steelheart Seattle signing (Oct. 14, 2013)

 

Honor's death is more related to Honor trapping Odium on Braize:

Spoiler

R'Shara

Did Honor and Cultivation binding Odium to the Roshar system directly cause the death stroke to Honor?

Brandon Sanderson

*sighs indecisively for a good ten seconds* RAFO. It's fiddly.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 5 (Dec. 2, 2022)

 

[slavagh]

44 minutes ago, alder24 said:

I don't think there is any proof for this. This insanity comes from living longer than humanly possible and dying multiple times, and it would still manifest, because this is the nature of CS. It would take something like stealing their memories to save them from this madness and we know from books that Heralds have good recollection of the past, while not always able to accurately tell the passage of time.

I don't see how stealing memories will save heralds. Stealing memories will make the character Taln less compelling. I agree that Heralds can be saved. The main character Taln in the back five is the proof. But I think restoring the Oathpact with a lot of sane heroes will awake Taln. 

 

44 minutes ago, alder24 said:

You really think that whatever tortured Heralds could affect a Shard, an infinite pool of investiture, to that degree? I highly doubt this. I doubt Honor would be willing to do something like that in the first place, Shards rarely directly intervene in the Physical Realm, and we don't know what Oathpact allowed Honor to do. Also that would massively deminished Taln's achievement of withstanding 4500 years of torture.

 It can't affect a Shard. It affects the vessel. The vessel is a weak point of the shard. The vessel's mind deteriorates with time. Why torture will not affect him?

I think the point of Honor is that he stands for what is right and not what is smart. Half of the things that Kaladin does in the books are not smart, but noble. And he is the closest to Honor character.

Do you really think the fact that he had help with a couple of thousand out of 4500 years will diminish his achievement?

44 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Honor's death is more related to Honor trapping Odium on Braize:

Honor didn't trap Odium on Braise. He trapped him in the Rasharan system. It is weird that he is inactive outside of Desolations.

44 minutes ago, alder24 said:

To add more, breaking of the Oathpact isn't related that much to Honor's death, your theory would make it a direct consequence of abandoning Oathpact, which would contradict this WoB:

I disagree. My theory makes Oathpact tangentially related. Not the original Oathpact is the reason for his death, but his decision to share Taln's pain

Edited August 22 by slavagh

[alder24]

2 hours ago, slavagh said:

I don't see how stealing memories will save heralds. Stealing memories will make the character Taln less compelling. I agree that Heralds can be saved. The main character Taln in the back five is the proof. But I think restoring the Oathpact with a lot of sane heroes will awake Taln. 

What I meant is that taking away memories is the only known way to minimize the damage done to the mind of CS, we know it from Hoid, who stores his memories in Breaths because he has been living for far too long. But Heralds seem to experience no memory loss so it's unlikely Oathpact will help them avoid madness. Their madness is because they have been living for millenia and dying dozens of times, straining their souls (keep in mind, Honor did though that Heralds will die more than once).

Spoiler

celestialwolf157

By the way, Kaladin's comment on Taln and Shalash's mental health makes me wonder: Are the Ten Fools based on the Heralds after they broke the Oathpact? Having 9 immortal, mentally ill people on Roshar for millenia seems like it'd have spawned some stories that could have eventually become stories of the Ten Fools. Taln wouldn't be included in this, but with Vorinism and the number 10, I imagine they'd have created something to oppose his virtues.

Also, I can't remember if this is confirmed or not, but on the topic of the Heralds' mental health, is it at all supernatural? Taln seemed to recover somewhat when Dalinar summoned the perpendicularity at the end of Oathbringer. So, is it just severe PTSD, or something supernatural is involved?

Brandon Sanderson

I've tried to make it clear in talking about the books that I separate what has happened to the Heralds and normal mental health. What they're suffering from is in large part supernatural--and has to do with the way souls (or Cognitive Shadows) work in the cosmere. So you are correct. This doesn't mean that some normal treatments wouldn't help them, but their core problem has a huge supernatural component.

And yes, there IS a relationship between the ten fools and the Heralds, though people on Roshar wouldn't be able to point it out.

mastapsi

Is the Heralds' madness related to and/or the same thing as the Fused's madness? The Stormfather mentions that each time one of the Fused is reborn, their mind is further damaged. Is it the same with the Herald? To many rebirths, possibly compounded by the fact that they not only often died each Desolation, but were tortured until the next one?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, these two things are related. (There are some hints in Rhythm of War at how Hoid has avoided a similar fate.)

Note that the torture--and the many rebirths--are a big part of this. But their age is also a factor.

3DLightweaver

Does this mean that a certain Cognitive Shadow from the Mistborn series is fated to go insane?

Brandon Sanderson

Depends on a lot of factors. But the longer a Cognitive Shadow exists, the more likely these problems are.

dce42

Would this affect the Returned as well? What about those with a lot (like 8,000) breaths since they are not cognitive shadows.

Brandon Sanderson

Returned are Cognitive Shadows. In the Cosmere, there is no way to bring someone back to life, other than normal medical resuscitation, without using a Cognitive Shadow.

Stromeng

What about Dalinar? I thought he has had textbook PTSD, but the screams he continued to hear turned out to be magic.

Brandon Sanderson

Dalinar has a whole host of issues, not easily defined by a single definition. Assume, though, that his mental state is a normal response to, in part, supernatural occurrences.

The different for the Heralds is that they have conditions which could only truly exist in the cosmere, even if some of the manifestations and symptoms are similar to what could happen on Earth.

Stonewalker16

So is that implying that Hoid is a Cognitive Shadow, or is that just an effect of being really really old? Also does Vasher know about/how to avoid these effects? Probably an RAFO, but...

Brandon Sanderson

Come back to that question in about a month or so.

Rhythm of War Preview Q&As (Sept. 8, 2020)

 

2 hours ago, slavagh said:

 It can't affect a Shard. It affects the vessel. The vessel is a weak point of the shard. The vessel's mind deteriorates with time. Why torture will not affect him?

They aren't separate. They are almost one. The Vessel's mind doesn't deteriorate like CS's one, but changes to fit Shard's intent better (which is reversible, if a Vessel drops his Shard, he will slowly go back to how he used to be, at least mostly). Vessel's mind is just too big, to strongly connected to a Shard to be affected by a simple torture. 

Mistborn WoB:

Spoiler

Argent (paraphrased)

If Ati had somehow managed to give up Ruin and returned to being a regular person, would his mind have gradually reverted from its corruption by Ruin's intent, or would he always be determined to destroy?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Over time Ruin's influence would fade, but Ati would remain a Sliver, so there would be some permanent effects.

Steelheart Chicago signing (Oct. 5, 2013)

 

2 hours ago, slavagh said:

I think the point of Honor is that he stands for what is right and not what is smart. Half of the things that Kaladin does in the books are not smart, but noble. And he is the closest to Honor character.

Is Honor about what's right? I think that Honor is mostly about oaths, but partially about justice, order and natural laws. 

Spoiler

Questioner

It was mentioned that there are 16 gods in your Cosmere.

Brandon Sanderson

Depends on your definition of god.

Questioner

Shards. Are the ten orders of the Knight Radiants related to specific gods? Because Honor, child of Honor-Kaladin

Brandon Sanderson

So all the magic on Roshar, all the surgebinding on Roshar, is going to have its roots in Honor and Cultivation. Um... There is some Odium influence too, but that’s mostly voidbinding, which is the map in the back of the first book.

Questioner

I was wondering how much-

Brandon Sanderson

But, but even the powers, it’s, it’s really this sort of thing. What’s going in Stormlight is that people are accessing fundamental forces of creation and laws of the universe. They’re accessing them through the filter of Cultivation and Honor. So, that’s not to say, on another world you couldn’t have someone influence gravity. Honor doesn’t belong to gravity. But bonds, and how to deal with bonds, and things like this, is an Honor thing. So the way Honor accesses gravity is, you make a bond between yourself and either a thing or a direction or things like that and you go. So it’s filtered through Honor’s visual, and some of the magics lean more Honor and some them lean more Cultivation, as you can obviously see, in the way that they take place.

Questioner

The question kind of rooted because, Wyndle in the short story is always saying that he’s a cultivationspren, he doesn’t like [...]. I kind of got the idea that each order had a different Shard.

Brandon Sanderson

That is a good thing to think, but that is not how it is. Some of them self-identify more in certain ways. Syl is an honorspren, that’s what they call a honorspren, they self-identify as the closest to Honor. Is that true? Well, I don’t know. For instance, you might talk to different spren, who are like, no, highspren are like “We’re the ones most like Honor. We are the ones that keep oaths the best. Those honorspren will let their people break their oaths if they think it’s for a good cause. That’s not Honor-like.” There would be disagreement.

Questioner

Are you saying that the spren’s view of themself influences how they work?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh yeah, and humans’ view of them because spren are pieces of Investiture who have gained sapience, or sentience for the smaller spren, through human perception of those forces. For instance, whether or not Kaladin is keeping an oath is up to what Syl and Kaladin think is keeping that oath. It is not related to capital-T Truth, what is actually keeping the oath. Two windrunners can disagree on whether an oath has been kept or not.

Boskone 54 (Feb. 18, 2017)

 

Spoiler

Pawell2812

Cultivation, Ruin, and Preservation seem like aspects of Adonalsium's cosmic nature rather than personality traits like other Shards. Is there a fourth Shard that is cosmic in nature?

Brandon Sanderson

I think they all are cosmic in nature. Even Honor, like you could say that's a personality trait, I don't think it is, I think it's a cosmic sense of justice and order, if that makes sense. We're phrasing it as a personality trait but that's not really what it is. There are those who would argue that the Shard of Honor is what makes things fall to the ground when you drop them and obey natural laws.

Ben Epic

Assuming the Dawnshards each represent four Shards, and considering their Intents seem to be similar, are Endowment, Cultivation, and Ruin all from the same category? Are they all Change Shards?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, I get what you're saying. I'm going to RAFO that for now.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 5 (Dec. 2, 2022)

 

2 hours ago, slavagh said:

Do you really think the fact that he had help with a couple of thousand out of 4500 years will diminish his achievement?

Help of a Shard. Yes, that's a lot. If that was all it took to bind Fused and Odium permanently on Braize, why Honor didn't do that earlier? After the Second Desolation he knew his plan failed. If he could directly intervene and prevent Odium from returning on Roshar, why didn't he do that?

2 hours ago, slavagh said:

Honor didn't trap Odium on Braise. He trapped him in the Rasharan system. It is weird that he is inactive outside of Desolations.

Yes, but he's bound mainly to Braize - he requires connection to work with something/somebody on Roshar, and once Fused and Voidspren are sealed off on Braize too, he has almost nobody to connect to. He still needs Everstorm to talk with Taravangian in OB/RoW. He's limited in what he can achieve on Roshar. Only Unmades remain, but they usually disappear or hide. He simply can't do more. 

Moreover your theory didn't explain how Odium was wounded by Honor. If Tanavest made himself so weak, how could he fight back? 

2 hours ago, slavagh said:

I disagree. My theory makes Oathpact tangentially related. Not the original Oathpact is the reason for his death, but his decision to share Taln's pain

No, it's directly related. In your theory if Heralds hadn't abandoned Oathpact, Honor wouldn't be Splintered. The WoB even said to not seek any relation here:  "If I was pinned down on that, I would say no."

Edited August 22 by alder24

[slavagh]

3 hours ago, alder24 said:

What I meant is that taking away memories is the only known way to minimize the damage done to the mind of CS, we know it from Hoid, who stores his memories in Breaths because he has been living for far too long. But Heralds seem to experience no memory loss so it's unlikely Oathpact will help them avoid madness. Their madness is because they have been living for millenia and dying dozens of times, straining their souls (keep in mind, Honor did though that Heralds will die more than once).

	"I remember so few of those centuries. I am a blur. A smear on the page. A gaunt stretch of ink, made all the more insubstantial with each passing day."
	"Midius once told me … told me we could use Investiture … to enhance our minds, our memories, so we wouldn’t forget so much."
	"Why would I want to remember?" I don't think Breaths help you to stay sane. They just help you to remember. What do you think will restore Taln? I don't disagree about the causes of madness. I just assume ten people connected together helped to postpone those effects. Abandoning the Oathpact is the major cause of their madness. 3 hours ago, alder24 said: They aren't separate. They are almost one. The Vessel's mind doesn't deteriorate like CS's one, but changes to fit Shard's intent better (which is reversible, if a Vessel drops his Shard, he will slowly go back to how he used to be, at least mostly). Vessel's mind is just too big, to strongly connected to a Shard to be affected by a simple torture.  My interpretation is that they are separate entities. I see the vessel as a human. And if the human is stupid enough to create a harmful connection, I don't see how it is implausible that Taln's madness couldn't affect the vessel. Tanavast at the end was raving that surgebinders will destroy the world. How can this be explained with his mind being affected by Shard's intent? 3 hours ago, alder24 said: Is Honor about what's right? I think that Honor is mostly about oaths, but partially about justice, order and natural laws.  What Honor is partly depends on the vessel's interpretation. I think Kaladin is closer to Honor than Dalinar. But Kaladin will break his word to save even a stranger. Dalinar will not break his word in most cases (my reading of the characters). To do what is right is to stay loyal to your principles. Principals can be interpreted how the oath to yourself, not unlike radiants oaths. 3 hours ago, alder24 said: Help of a Shard. Yes, that's a lot. If that was all it took to bind Fused and Odium permanently on Braize, why Honor didn't do that earlier? After the Second Desolation he knew his plan failed. If he could directly intervene and prevent Odium from returning on Roshar, why didn't he do that? Probably because that would have made him vulnerable to being splintered. He couldn't prevent him from returning to Roshar permanently. And I don't think planing is the strong side of Honor.   3 hours ago, alder24 said: Yes, but he's bound mainly to Braize - he requires connection to work with something/somebody on Roshar, and once Fused and Voidspren are sealed off on Braize too, he has almost nobody to connect to. He still needs Everstorm to talk with Taravangian in OB/RoW. He's limited in what he can achieve on Roshar. Only Unmades remain, but they usually disappear or hide. He simply can't do more.  Moreover your theory didn't explain how Odium was wounded by Honor. If Tanavest made himself so weak, how could he fight back?  I don't think he is bound on Braize now. He is just afraid that his presents on Roshar make him vulnerable to Cultivation attack, so he stays back. I think he says something like that at the end of Oathbringer. Taravargian sees the being that was Raise as frail, but the power anything but frail. Odium's imprisonment on Roshar and the subsequential rift between him and his power was the wound that Honor made.  Tanavast coudn't fight back at the end. 3 hours ago, alder24 said: No, it's directly related. In your theory if Heralds hadn't abandoned Oathpact, Honor wouldn't be Splintered. The WoB even said to not seek any relation here:  "If I was pinned down on that, I would say no." But if Honor chose not to help Taln, he would have been alive. The Oathpact is not the direct cause.

Edited August 22 by slavagh

[alder24]

6 minutes ago, slavagh said:

"I remember so few of those centuries. I am a blur. A smear on the page. A gaunt stretch of ink, made all the more insubstantial with each passing day."   "Midius once told me … told me we could use Investiture … to enhance our minds, our memories, so we wouldn’t forget so much."  

"Why would I want to remember?"

I don't think Breaths help you to stay sane. They just help you to remember.

Yeah, that's natural for CS. Breaths would help IF they were using them to store their memories through all those centuries like Hoid did, not now. Now it is too late. Human mind just isn't built to last that long and to remember that much, that's why Breaths are so helpful.

Quote

mastapsi

Is the Heralds' madness related to and/or the same thing as the Fused's madness? The Stormfather mentions that each time one of the Fused is reborn, their mind is further damaged. Is it the same with the Herald? To many rebirths, possibly compounded by the fact that they not only often died each Desolation, but were tortured until the next one?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, these two things are related. (There are some hints in Rhythm of War at how Hoid has avoided a similar fate.)

Note that the torture--and the many rebirths--are a big part of this. But their age is also a factor.

 

8 minutes ago, slavagh said:

What do you think will restore Taln? I don't disagree about the causes of madness. I just assume ten people connected together helped to postpone those effects. Abandoning the Oathpact is the major cause of their madness.

Permanently restore Taln? No idea. And no, the main cause of their madness is because of their CS nature, proven by WoB. Oathpact might have helped a bit but that's unknown - Taln who remained loyal to it, is now the most insane Herald.

11 minutes ago, slavagh said:

My interpretation is that they are separate entities. I see the vessel as a human.

No, they aren't. You're wrong. The Vessel ceases to be a human/Sho Del/Dragon the moment they Ascend.

Spoiler

Questioner

I wanted to ask, is the Shardbearer [Vessel] of Odium a human?

Brandon Sanderson

Not any longer.

Questioner

Ok, that's... I didn't expect that one.

Brandon Sanderson

 But what the answer to your question you really want to know is, was he originally human?

Questioner

Yeah.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. That's a good question! But I don't think he counts anymore.

Footnote: Rayse is the Vessel of Odium
Kraków signing (March 21, 2017)

 

12 minutes ago, slavagh said:

And if the human is stupid enough to create a harmful connection

It's not a human anymore. It's a Shard. And with it comes a massive amount of Shardic knowledge and intuitive understanding of Shard's nature and its abilities. A Shard is everything but stupid.

14 minutes ago, slavagh said:

I don't see how it is implausible that Taln's madness couldn't affect the vessel

Because Vessel holds the whole power of a Shard, it's infinitely more invested than Taln. Vessel's mind was also expanded to massive size when they Ascended. Whatever was used against Taln is simply nothing compared to a Shard.

16 minutes ago, slavagh said:

Tanavast at the end was raving that surgebinders will destroy the world. How can this be explained with his mind being affected by Shard's intent?

There is a very simple explanation - Honor was already dying and that was a prolonged event. This isn't about Shard's Intent anymore. Honor was already mortally wounded by Odium, and was losing his mind. He died after Recreance and Tanavast's CS merged with Stormfather. OB ch 113:

Quote

But in the days leading to the Recreance, Honor was dying. When that generation of knights learned the truth, Honor did not support them. He raved, speaking of the Dawnshards, ancient weapons used to destroy the Tranquiline Halls. Honor … promised that Surgebinders would do the same to Roshar

 

30 minutes ago, slavagh said:

Probably because that would have made him vulnerable to being splintered. He couldn't prevent him from returning to Roshar permanently.

And he still did it and got Splintered. That makes no sense. Why not share the pain with all 10 Heralds, saving them for longer?

30 minutes ago, slavagh said:

And I don't think planing is the strong side of Honor.

He made plans when he was dying, warned future humans of incoming True Desolation, gave them hints on how to fight with Odium and prepared Stormfather to take his place. Good plan in my opinion, all made when he was already mad. Not to mention binding Odium to Roshar which also turned out to be a good idea, saving other Shards from Splintering.

33 minutes ago, slavagh said:

I don't think he is bound on Braize now.

Now he has Voidspren, Fused, active Unmades and Everstorm. That's why he can do so much on Roshar now. But he still needs connection to act against people.

34 minutes ago, slavagh said:

He is just afraid that his presents on Roshar make him vulnerable to Cultivation attack, so he stays back. I think he says something like that at the end of Oathbringer.

He said in RoW that breaking his word would open him to her attack. He is omnipresent, he already is on Roshar but can't reach there easily. Just acting won't expose him to her attack, he is doing it right now and Cultivation didn't directly attack him.

And apparently Honor and Cultivation binding him to the Roshar system somehow made him unable to influence people, there is you explanation why Odium wasn't active after Aharietiem. RoW ch 112:

Quote

“Basically?” Dalinar pressed. “What happens, Odium, if you break your word.”
“Then the contract is void, and I am in your power. Same, but reversed, if you break the contract. You would be in my power, and the restrictions Honor placed upon me—chaining me to the Rosharan system and preventing me from using my powers on most individuals—would be void. But that is not going to happen, and I am not going to break my word. Because if I did, it would create a hole in my soul—which would let Cultivation kill me.

 

37 minutes ago, slavagh said:

Taravargian sees the being that was Raise as frail, but the power anything but frail. Odium's imprisonment on Roshar and the subsequential rift between him and his power was the wound that Honor made. 

Rift and imprisonment isn't a wound. Those all are separate things mentioned by Taravangian. Rayse was weak because he was fighting with Odium's intent and trying to change it to Passion. He was enslaved by Odium's power. That, and failure to take Dalinar and Kaladin, made Rayse weak. RoW ch 114:

Quote

He became the power. With it, he began to understand the cosmere on a fundamental level. He saw that his predecessor had been sliding toward oblivion for a long, long time. Weakened by his battles in the past, then deeply wounded by Honor, this being had been enslaved by the power. Failing to claim Dalinar, then losing the tower and Stormblessed, had left the being frail. Vulnerable.

Plus look at "he became the power", which proves Vessels aren't separate from Power, but one with it. Vessel is a Shard.

 

42 minutes ago, slavagh said:

Tanavast coudn't fight back at the end.

We know he did fight back, wounding Odium. 

42 minutes ago, slavagh said:

But if Honor chose not to help Taln, he would have been alive. The Oathpact is not the direct cause.

It is because in your theory abandoning Oathpact made Honor intervene and caused his death. And even if you count is as a tangential relation, that's still in conflict with the WoB "If I was pinned down on that, I would say no."

[slavagh]

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

Yeah, that's natural for CS. Breaths would help IF they were using them to store their memories through all those centuries like Hoid did, not now. Now it is too late. Human mind just isn't built to last that long and to remember that much, that's why Breaths are so helpful.

Still don't see how breaths can help you stay sane. If you don't use them, you'll just forget a bunch of things. Hoid is not a usual CS. Holding a dawnshard may have helped him

 

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

No, they aren't. You're wrong. The Vessel ceases to be a human/Sho Del/Dragon the moment they Ascend.

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

Plus look at "he became the power", which proves Vessels aren't separate from Power, but one with it. Vessel is a Shard.

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

Rayse was weak because he was fighting with Odium's intent and trying to change it to Passion

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

Because Vessel holds the whole power of a Shard, it's infinitely more invested than Taln. Vessel's mind was also expanded to massive size when they Ascended. Whatever was used against Taln is simply nothing compared to a Shard.

If they are not separate entities, how can Raise fight with Odium's intent? The conflict between two separate entities makes it possible.

We fundamentally disagree on Shard and vessel relationships. I think the vessel is the only vulnerable part of the shard. And if it is not 'human', it maintains some humanity with a lot of its vulnerabilities.

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

It's not a human anymore. It's a Shard. And with it comes a massive amount of Shardic knowledge and intuitive understanding of Shard's nature and its abilities. A Shard is everything but stupid.

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

And he still did it and got Splintered. That makes no sense. Why not share the pain with all 10 Heralds, saving them for longer?

I already explained that stupid and noble is often the same. He knew the consequences but did it regardless.

When the 10 heralds worked together the plan was working. He wouldn't help 10 minds that much. Plus the risk of splintering. When other Heralds left, there was no one else to help Taln, hence the emotional and noble decision to help Taln

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

He made plans when he was dying, warned future humans of incoming True Desolation, gave them hints on how to fight with Odium and prepared Stormfather to take his place. Good plan in my opinion, all made when he was already mad. Not to mention binding Odium to Roshar which also turned out to be a good idea, saving other Shards from Splintering.

The whole Roshar and Cosmere was one word from Dalinar to be exposed to Odium unchained. Renarin saw this future as a done deal. It is not a good plan, it is a huge gamble at best. His whole strategy was to delay and hope somebody will solve it in the future.

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

Permanently restore Taln? No idea. And no, the main cause of their madness is because of their CS nature, proven by WoB. Oathpact might have helped a bit but that's unknown - Taln who remained loyal to it, is now the most insane Herald.

Again, in my theory, Taln losing his connection to other heralds made him vulnerable to usual CS madness. They all stayed sane until they all were connected and shared pain. It doesn't matter if Taln stayed loyal if the other heralds did not.

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

there is you explanation why Odium wasn't active after Aharietiem

He had Unmade for connection. It doesn't explain why he didn't give forms of power to singers, just like BAM. He could have made connections to any singer.

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

It is because in your theory abandoning Oathpact made Honor intervene and caused his death. And even if you count is as a tangential relation, that's still in conflict with the WoB "If I was pinned down on that, I would say no."

Why it is in conflict? That is too literal an interpretation of the WoB.

Edited August 22 by slavagh

[alder24]

14 hours ago, slavagh said:

Still don't see how breaths can help you stay sane. If you don't use them, you'll just forget a bunch of things. Hoid is not a usual CS. Holding a dawnshard may have helped him

Both Brandon and Hoid specifically said that what Hoid is doing helps him avoid the fate of Heralds. That's confirmed. I guess living that long messes up with your brain, as there is too much you have to remember. You don't control what you forgot without Breaths, it messes up with your perception of time, personality and connections. Using Breaths to store all those memories there helps mitigate this madness.

14 hours ago, slavagh said:

If they are not separate entities, how can Raise fight with Odium's intent? The conflict between two separate entities makes it possible.

Perception. The power has an intent which Rayse tried to change. The same way your self-perception affects your healing. 

14 hours ago, slavagh said:

We fundamentally disagree on Shard and vessel relationships. I think the vessel is the only vulnerable part of the shard. And if it is not 'human', it maintains some humanity with a lot of its vulnerabilities.

A Vessel definitely is a vulnerable part of a Shard - RoW has proven to us - but they're still merged. A Vessel is not a human anymore, as WoBs and books confirmed. A Vessel is a mind that controls the power. 

14 hours ago, slavagh said:

I already explained that stupid and noble is often the same. He knew the consequences but did it regardless.

When the 10 heralds worked together the plan was working. He wouldn't help 10 minds that much. Plus the risk of splintering. When other Heralds left, there was no one else to help Taln, hence the emotional and noble decision to help Taln

No it's the opposite. The plan stopped working the moment one of the Heralds broke and allowed for the Return. If Honor intervened back then, the pain would be spread among 11 entities, note 2, it would make much more sense for hi, to help them back then, as they all would have lasted far longer. That's why id just doesn't make any sense.

14 hours ago, slavagh said:

Again, in my theory, Taln losing his connection to other heralds made him vulnerable to usual CS madness. They all stayed sane until they all were connected and shared pain. It doesn't matter if Taln stayed loyal if the other heralds did not.

He didn't lose connection to other Heralds, it's still there, Dalinar saw it. Jezrien shows the signs of madness in Prelude, Kalak too. It started much earlier than your theory suggests, and that's consistent with the nature of CS. 

Quote

Kalak found himself shaking. When had he become so weak? “Jezrien, I can’t return this time.” Kalak whispered the words, stepping up and gripping the other man’s arm. “I can’t.”
Kalak felt something within him break at the admission. How long had it been? Centuries, perhaps millennia, of torture. It was so hard to keep track. Those res, those hooks, digging into his esh anew each day. Searing the skin o his arm, then burning the fat, then driving to the bone. He could smell it. Almighty, he could smell it!

[...]

Kalak looked into the immortal king’s eyes. Black smoke rose from a small patch to their left. Groans of the dying haunted them from behind. There, in Jezrien’s eyes, Kalak saw anguish and grief. Perhaps even cowardice. This was a man hanging from a cli by a thread.
Almighty above, Kalak thought. You’re broken too, aren’t you? They all were.

[...]

“And Taln?” Kalak asked. The esh burning. The res. The pain over and over and over …
“Better that one man should suer than ten,” Jezrien whispered. He seemed so cold. Like a shadow caused by heat and light falling on someone honorable and true, casting this black imitation behind.

 

14 hours ago, slavagh said:

He had Unmade for connection. It doesn't explain why he didn't give forms of power to singers, just like BAM. He could have made connections to any singer.

Because he couldn't. Odium gives forms of power with Voidspren. Honor bound him to Roshar in a way so he can't openly influence people. I've literally given you a quote explaining why, and you've ignored it. He can't make connections, he needs to use existing ones, like we saw with Kaladin - he had to use Moash's connection because he couldn't make his own connection to Kaladin.

14 hours ago, slavagh said:

Why it is in conflict? That is too literal an interpretation of the WoB.

Because Brandon said "no". There is no notable connection between Honor's death and Heralds abandoning Oathpact. The WoB made it very clear.

[slavagh]

59 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Both Brandon and Hoid specifically said that what Hoid is doing helps him avoid the fate of Heralds. That's confirmed.

17 hours ago, alder24 said:

"Midius once told me … told me we could use Investiture … to enhance our minds, our memories, so we wouldn’t forget so much.

I think a more helpful comment from Hoid would be 'Use the Breaths or you'll lose your mind', don't you think?

'There are hints in the book about how Hoid avoided a similar fate' hardly counts as confirmation. Maybe I missed the correct quote?

59 minutes ago, alder24 said:

15 hours ago, slavagh said:

If they are not separate entities, how can Raise fight with Odium's intent? The conflict between two separate entities makes it possible.

Perception. The power has an intent which Rayse tried to change. The same way your self-perception affects your healing

'Odium wasn't simply the mind that controlled the power: the Vessel. Nor was he merely the power alone: the Shard. He was both, and at times it seemed the power had desires that were counter to the purposes of the Vessel.' - Sja-Anat interlude. This doesn't scream to me as they are one entity. Can you hurt the power? Every time we saw Shard being hurt, it was always a Vessel problem. The power is unscathed for the next wielder to use.

59 minutes ago, alder24 said:

A Vessel definitely is a vulnerable part of a Shard - RoW has proven to us - but they're still merged. A Vessel is not a human anymore, as WoBs and books confirmed. A Vessel is a mind that controls the power. 

Partially still human with a lot of human weaknesses. If the Vessel is in control, why does the power always control the Vessel in the end?

59 minutes ago, alder24 said:

No it's the opposite. The plan stopped working the moment one of the Heralds broke and allowed for the Return. If Honor intervened back then, the pain would be spread among 11 entities, note 2, it would make much more sense for hi, to help them back then, as they all would have lasted far longer. That's why id just doesn't make any sense.

11 is not that much better than 10. For him entering the Oathpact meant soon death. His whole goal was to buy time, which he helped Taln to do.

Back then you argued the shard is so smart that it sees all possibilities. And you think Honoir couldn't predict one of the Heralds would yield with time? Why do you think cycles of Desolation weren't his plan all along? Do you take Stormfather words as facts?

Gavilar prologue spoilers:

Spoiler

Stormfather is a straight-up liar in the prologue. In Oathbringer he said Taln broke, which is a lie. In the same chapter, he told Honor's plan.

59 minutes ago, alder24 said:

49 minutes ago, alder24 said:

He didn't lose connection to other Heralds, it's still there, Dalinar saw it. Jezrien shows the signs of madness in Prelude, Kalak too. It started much earlier than your theory suggests, and that's consistent with the nature of CS. 

What was the point of leaving the Oathpact? To stop the pain. They haven't felt Taln's pain since they left the Oathpact, otherwise, what was the point of leaving? So that part of the Connection is most likely severed.

Don't know where you see the proof of magical madness in the prelude. For me, it is just a normal reaction after so many years of torture. My original argument was that if they hadn't left Taln, they would still be broken, but not magically mad.

59 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Because he couldn't. Odium gives forms of power with Voidspren. Honor bound him to Roshar in a way so he can't openly influence people. I've literally given you a quote explaining why, and you've ignored it. He can't make connections, he needs to use existing ones, like we saw with Kaladin - he had to use Moash's connection because he couldn't make his own connection to Kaladin.

17 hours ago, alder24 said:

You would be in my power, and the restrictions Honor placed upon me—chaining me to the Rosharan system and preventing me from using my powers on most individuals—would be void

This quote? He can't harm people, but what stops him from interacting with willing participants? Why would a singer refuse the form of power?

You said he couldn't make the connection with Kaladin, but you ignored that he easily made the new connection with Moash. 

[alder24]

1 hour ago, slavagh said:

I think a more helpful comment from Hoid would be 'Use the Breaths or you'll lose your mind', don't you think?

'There are hints in the book about how Hoid avoided a similar fate' hardly counts as confirmation. Maybe I missed the correct quote?

Yes, you did:

Spoiler

Questioner

Memory is tied to some level or portion of Spiritual Identity, or else Feruchemists would not be able to store it. So, Hoid lost memories at the end of Rhythm of War in his exchange with Odium. Would that mean part of his soul was stolen and then absorbed into Odium, and if so, what is stopping Odium from doing that with all of his enemies?

Brandon Sanderson

Basically, what Odium split off is stuff that Hoid is storing in excess Investiture. (Basically, it was Breaths, in Hoid’s case.) And this sort of thing, where this extra memory… One of the reasons that Hoid is able to function better than, perhaps, some other very long-lived individuals is: he has found out how to keep some of this Identity in, shall we say, SD cards made of Investiture. Imagine that sort of thing. So what Odium was stealing from Hoid was straight out of an SD card. Which means that it’s not nearly as deeply ripping into someone’s soul, and it is also not nearly as noticeable.

But the other thing is: Hoid is directly in violation of certain agreements that have been made, which therefore exposes him to… He is lacking protections. As you’ll notice in the end of Book Three, where he’s like, “I need to be careful, because I am in violation.”

And so, there’s a couple things going on here. Number one, much more easy to access those memories. Number two, Hoid’s in direct violation and under no protections of any sorts of agreements and things like this.

Dragonsteel 2022 (Nov. 14, 2022)

KoWT Jasnah reading:

Spoiler

Quote

“I’ve lived a long time, Jasnah. A long, long time. Longer than any mortal’s memories can track, so I must use other means to maintain myself. I store memories in something called Breath: an easily accessible, if costly, form of Investiture that a person can adopt and, with training, use to expand one’s soul and memory. That part isn’t specifically important; I periodically review memories, deciding on what is vital to keep and what can be jettisoned. It is one of the only ways to remain sane after such a long existence as mine"

 

 

1 hour ago, slavagh said:

'Odium wasn't simply the mind that controlled the power: the Vessel. Nor was he merely the power alone: the Shard. He was both, and at times it seemed the power had desires that were counter to the purposes of the Vessel.' - Sja-Anat interlude. This doesn't scream to me as they are one entity. Can you hurt the power? Every time we saw Shard being hurt, it was always a Vessel problem. The power is unscathed for the next wielder to use.

Yes, that's the fundamental nature of a Shard, that if Vessel is in conflict with Shard's intent, his control over it is weak. But that is still one entity. Nightblood weakened the Shard directly, not only killed the Vessel. Splintering hurts the power, and it can be done in a way that doesn't kill Shard nor Vessel. Dominion, Devotion, Ambition and Honor would disagree with your last statement.

Spoiler

Questioner

Nightblood has more Investiture than any other being, right?

Brandon Sanderson

Not every other being, but definitely one of the most highly Invested individuals that we have seen.

Questioner

So Nightblood, he was used to wound Odium. Is Odium now weaker than he was before?

Brandon Sanderson

Not in a relevant way. Technically, yes. Not in a relevant way. The amount taken, compared to how much there is, is pretty small. And a whole bunch of what happened there was focused on the Vessel, not on Odium itself.

Questioner

Could Nightblood consume Odium?

Brandon Sanderson

Nightblood would get full before consuming even the smallest fraction amount of Odium. As you saw, Nightblood kind of got full in that instance. Actually, it was with the perpendicularity, it would be similar to that. So for those who are wondering, no, you can't stab Nightblood into the planet and absorb the planet. Nightblood is really dangerous, as we've seen, but we're not talking "absorb planets" dangerous.

Dragonsteel Mini-Con 2021 (Nov. 22, 2021)

 

1 hour ago, slavagh said:

Partially still human with a lot of human weaknesses. If the Vessel is in control, why does the power always control the Vessel in the end?

Not a human anymore, but some weaknesses are still present, like flawed thinking, susceptibility to emotional reactions etc. Those things remain because the personality is carried into the Shard, and slowly changed to fit the intent. That's the nature of the Shard. Mind which controls the power, but this control is filtered through the intent of that power. 

1 hour ago, slavagh said:

11 is not that much better than 10. For him entering the Oathpact meant soon death. His whole goal was to buy time, which he helped Taln to do.

11th is the Shard, it's incomprehensibly greater than 10. Vessel's mind got expanded when they Ascended is too great to be affected by a simple torture.

1 hour ago, slavagh said:

Back then you argued the shard is so smart that it sees all possibilities

That's not what I've said.

18 hours ago, alder24 said:

And with it comes a massive amount of Shardic knowledge and intuitive understanding of Shard's nature and its abilities. A Shard is everything but stupid.

 

1 hour ago, slavagh said:

And you think Honoir couldn't predict one of the Heralds would yield with time? 

No. Intent blinded him. This isn't the first Shard that was blinded by his intent and couldn't accurately predict the future. OB ch 38:

Quote

HONOR LET THE POWER BLIND HIM TO THE TRUTH—THAT WHILE SPREN AND GODS CANNOT BREAK THEIR OATHS, MEN CAN AND WILL.

 

1 hour ago, slavagh said:

What was the point of leaving the Oathpact? To stop the pain. They haven't felt Taln's pain since they left the Oathpact, otherwise, what was the point of leaving? So that part of the Connection is most likely severed.

Connection isn't severed, it's just very weak. 

1 hour ago, slavagh said:

My original argument was that if they hadn't left Taln, they would still be broken, but not magically mad.

With which I disagree as we have WoBs saying that Heralds madness is due to them living longer than they should and dying over and over again. That's another part of your theory that is contradicted by WoBs.

1 hour ago, slavagh said:

This quote? He can't harm people, but what stops him from interacting with willing participants? Why would a singer refuse the form of power?

Does the quote have the word "harm" in it? No, it's general "using my powers on people", which include giving them forms of power. No connection, no ability to interact with people. No Voidspren, no forms of power. That's so simple. BAM wasn't restricted in that way.

1 hour ago, slavagh said:

You said he couldn't make the connection with Kaladin, but you ignored that he easily made the new connection with Moash. 

He didn't make any new connection, he used the existing one that Moash had. RoW I-4:

Quote

Vyre walked closer and knelt. “You can take me without a storm now, Lord?”
OUR CONNECTION GROWS STRONGER, Odium said. I HAVEN’T NEEDED A STORM TO BRING YOU INTO A VISION FOR MONTHS NOW, VYRE. I USUALLY DO IT FOR TRADITION’S SAKE.

[...]

HE HAS LEFT THE BATTLE, WHICH I HADN’T THOUGHT HIM CAPABLE OF DOING, Odium said. STRANGELY, THIS WILL MAKE HIM FAR MORE DANGEROUS IN THE FUTURE. UNLESS WE ACT. BUT I CANNOT STRIKE HIM DOWN DIRECTLY. NOT UNLESS HE PUTS HIMSELF INTO MY HANDS.

[...]

“Could you show him anything?”
I HAVEN’T THE CONNECTION TO HIM. Odium considered, humming softly to a rhythm. I SEE A WAY. THERE ARE HOLES IN HIS SOUL. SOMEONE COULD GET IN. SOMEONE WHO KNOWS HIM, SOMEONE CONNECTED TO HIM. SOMEONE WHO FEELS AS HE DOES.
“I will do it.”
PERHAPS. YOU COULD INFLUENCE HIM IN SMALL WAYS ONLY. PERHAPS EACH NIGHT, WHEN HE SLUMBERS … HE THINKS OF YOU STILL, AND THERE IS MORE. A CONNECTION BECAUSE OF YOUR PAST, YOUR SHARED DREAMS. ANY BOND SUCH AS THAT CAN BE MANIPULATED. WILL THIS BE ENOUGH? IF WE SHOW HIM VISIONS, WILL THAT BREAK HIM?
“It will be a start. I can bring him to the brink. Get him to step up to the ledge.”

 

Edited August 23 by alder24

[JohnnyKaizen]

On 8/22/2023 at 10:23 AM, alder24 said:

Because between Desolations Odium was trapped on Braize just like Fused were, he couldn't influence Roshar in almost any way, especially in a direct way like BAM. Odium being bound to Braize is not from Oathpact, but from his entrapment by Honor.

But Odium claims that he was "there" with Dalinar all through his life at various tragedies? So was he actually present through the Thrill or is he lying?

[alder24]

Just now, JohnnyKaizen said:

But Odium claims that he was "there" with Dalinar all through his life at various tragedies? So was he actually present through the Thrill or is he lying?

He was influencing Dalinar through the Thrill. It provided a connection for Odium to use.

[slavagh]

51 minutes ago, alder24 said:

2 hours ago, slavagh said:

I think a more helpful comment from Hoid would be 'Use the Breaths or you'll lose your mind', don't you think?

'There are hints in the book about how Hoid avoided a similar fate' hardly counts as confirmation. Maybe I missed the correct quote?

Yes, you did:

Yes, I see the comment now. Do you think it is the only thing that is needed? Or a part of the solution? Why the Heralds rejected such a simple solution to their problems?

54 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Yes, that's the fundamental nature of a Shard, that if Vessel is in conflict with Shard's intent, his control over it is weak. But that is still one entity. Nightblood weakened the Shard directly, not only killed the Vessel. Splintering hurts the power, and it can be done in a way that doesn't kill Shard nor Vessel. Dominion, Devotion, Ambition and Honor would disagree with your last statement.

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

Technically, yes. Not in a relevant way. The amount taken, compared to how much there is, is pretty small. And a whole bunch of what happened there was focused on the Vessel, not on Odium itself.

How can you interpret this comment as weakening the Shard? They are even referred to as separate entities in the WoB.

Technically yes, probably means that Nightblood just ate a small part of the Shard. Why did Nightblood kill particularly the Vessel? If they are the one, why there is a conflict with intent in the first place? If they become the one, doesn't it mean there should be no conflict in the first place? I don't know how either of those Shards died. The Ones that we saw in books died through the Vessel with power intact. Splintering is usually done after the Vessel is dead. Don't think that taking a chunk of the power that can be reclaimed can be called splintering.

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

11th is the Shard, it's incomprehensibly greater than 10. Vessel's mind got expanded when they Ascended is too great to be affected by a simple torture.

I have an assumption that the mind of the Shard connected to Taln is susceptible to torture. You don't buy that. That is fair. But you can't prove my assumption is wrong by your own assumption that shards mind is too strong.

3 hours ago, alder24 said:

No. Intent blinded him. This isn't the first Shard that was blinded by his intent and couldn't accurately predict the future. OB ch 38:

Quote

HONOR LET THE POWER BLIND HIM TO THE TRUTH—THAT WHILE SPREN AND GODS CANNOT BREAK THEIR OATHS, MEN CAN AND WILL.

Again, all Stormfather says is unreliable. 

I don't buy the 'blinded to intent argument'. It is cherry-picking. You can use it whenever it suits your argument. I can use the same argument too. When Honor connected to Taln he was not stupid, but 'blinded' to intent'.

3 hours ago, alder24 said:

With which I disagree as we have WoBs saying that Heralds madness is due to them living longer than they should and dying over and over again. That's another part of your theory that is contradicted by WoBs.

We have no proof heralds were mad before leaving the Oathpact. What WoB contradicts? Oathpact protected them while they were connected.

3 hours ago, alder24 said:

Does the quote have the word "harm" in it? No, it's general "using my powers on people", which include giving them forms of power. No connection, no ability to interact with people. No Voidspren, no forms of power. That's so simple. BAM wasn't restricted in that way.

3 hours ago, alder24 said:

He didn't make any new connection, he used the existing one that Moash had. RoW I-4:

1 hour ago, JohnnyKaizen said:

But Odium claims that he was "there" with Dalinar all through his life at various tragedies? So was he actually present through the Thrill or is he lying?

There is no proof voidspren are bound by Oathpact. BAM used them.

How Moash created Connection with Odium in the first place if Honor's restrictions forbade him from interactions with humans? If Kaladin wanted, he could take any power from Odium. He used Moash because Kaladin didn't give permission.(no harm as opposed to no interaction argument)

Agree with Trill comment. Why he didn't form a connection with singers through Trill and then provide them with forms of Power?

[alder24]

I don't like the way this discussion is progressing. I feel like it becomes unnecessarily heated, and we're going in circles repeating the same things over and over again. We're going nowhere with this. The WoB has quite decisively disproves your theory: "If I was pinned down on that, I would say no."

 

1 hour ago, slavagh said:

Yes, I see the comment now. Do you think it is the only thing that is needed? Or a part of the solution? Why the Heralds rejected such a simple solution to their problems?

For now it looks like it can help a lot on its own. Because 7000 years ago Heralds didn't have access to Breaths. Awakening started to be practiced and developed around 600 years before Warbreaker, which is "few generations before WoK". When Breaths became more understood and common across Cosmere, it was already too late for Heralds. And Vasher seems to be the one who discovered the command to transfer memories. Of course this doesn't include Hoid, as Hoid is Hoid, he could either get them earlier, or use some other methods like Feruchemy.

1 hour ago, slavagh said:

How can you interpret this comment as weakening the Shard? They are even referred to as separate entities in the WoB.

You claimed that the power can't be hurt, I gave you examples of the power being hurt. They're not separate, Vessel is the mind of a Shard, at that moment Odium's mind was fully concentrated on Taravangian, it was there, with him, that's why it took the blow. But it still weaken Odium a bit.

1 hour ago, slavagh said:

If they are the one, why there is a conflict with intent in the first place?

In the same way your body sometimes does things you don't want it to do, your immune system sometimes tries to kill you, or your mind thinks about depressive stuff you don't want it to, or you fight with yourself to achieve something. Are you not one with your mind and body despite internal conflicts? The same way Kaladin scars remained while he was struggling with depression. Shard's power is keyed to its intent, but the mind can affect that intent via self-perception. Perception is the key in Cosmere. 

1 hour ago, slavagh said:

I don't know how either of those Shards died. The Ones that we saw in books died through the Vessel with power intact. Splintering is usually done after the Vessel is dead.

What? Honor is Splintered. Devotion and Dominion is Splintered. Isn't that enough for you? What's your source on "Splintering is usually done after the Vessel is dead."? It's the opposite, Coppermind: 

Quote

Most commonly, a Splintering may happen as one titanic event that kills the Vessel and disperses its power.^[29] Less frequently, a Vessel may be killed and then their Shard subsequently Splintered.^[30] 

 

Quote

Don't think that taking a chunk of the power that can be reclaimed can be called splintering.

It is. Creating spren is called Splintering. 

Cosmere Spoiler:

Spoiler

Ruin was kind of Splintered. Endowment is self-Splintering:

Spoiler

Lance Alvein (paraphrased)

You've said that "The Pits of Hathsin were crafted by Preservation as a place to hide the chunk of Ruin's body that he had stolen away". How does one Shard steal a portion of another Shard and create a Physical outlet for it, like the Pits were for Ruin's power?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

It has to do with clash between the two Shards' power. When pressed, he then said that it was "kind of" like splintering

Hal-Con 2012 (Oct. 30, 2012)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

So if a person's holding a Shard, someone like the original sixteen people. Some of the Shards got [Splintered], does that automatically kill the people? Or can some of those people still be walking around?

Brandon Sanderson

It does not automatically, because you can give up pieces of investiture and things like this. It did kill them, that was part of the point. But there are ways to conceive of this happening that it wouldn't. Technically what Endowment is doing is giving up pieces, intentionally Splintering to form these other pieces and things, so yeah.

JordanCon 2018 (April 21, 2018)

 

 

1 hour ago, slavagh said:

There is no proof voidspren are bound by Oathpact. BAM used them.

BAM connected herself to all Singers giving them forms of powers without Voidspren, that's why it was so surprising for Radiatns. Ulim is the proof, RoW ch 73:

Quote

“Ulim,” she whispered, “when will the other Voidspren be ready?”
Can’t say for certain, he replied. That stupid Herald is still standing strong all these years later. We have to work around him.

 

1 hour ago, slavagh said:

How Moash created Connection with Odium in the first place if Honor's restrictions forbade him from interactions with humans?

By serving Leshwi, killing Jezrien and becoming Vyre, giving his emotions to Odium. Odium is forbidden from using his powers on people, that's different from interactions.

1 hour ago, slavagh said:

Agree with Trill comment. Why he didn't form a connection with singers through Trill and then provide them with forms of Power?

No Voidspren are present on Roshar. Thrill can only change the mind to a specific mindset, which isn't suitable for most Voidspren (as Singers have to have a very specific mindset when they get new forms). Odium provides forms of power by using Voidspren, like he did with Venli. He can't directly grant forms of power, but he can make Voidspren give them to chosen people.

Edited August 23 by alder24

[slavagh]

4 minutes ago, alder24 said:

I don't like the way this discussion is progressing. I feel like it becomes unnecessarily heated, and we're going in circles repeating the same things over and over again. We're going nowhere with this. The WoB has quite decisively disproves your theory: "If I was pinned down on that, I would say no."

Sorry to make this discussion less enjoyable for you. I really appreciate your participation and don't have any ill feelings toward you.
This theory is based on a lot of assumptions and my personal preferences. I enjoyed hearing fierce opposition because it helps me to look at those books from different angles. But you are right, we are running circles by now.

[alder24]

9 minutes ago, slavagh said:

Sorry to make this discussion less enjoyable for you. I really appreciate your participation and don't have any ill feelings toward you.

Good to know. I was afraid we're getting too heated, because sometimes it's really hard to know the tone and emotions of others. And I myself got more aggressive so I wanted to back down just in case. Sorry if you felt that.

11 minutes ago, slavagh said:

This theory is based on a lot of assumptions and my personal preferences.

Yes, it is, but you have all rights to defend your theory and you're doing quite a good job with that, at least with Honor helping Taln part, as I feel it's difficult to explain why this didn't happen and there aren't any concrete proofs for that, but it derailed into "are Shard and Vessel one or not".

12 minutes ago, slavagh said:

I enjoyed hearing fierce opposition because it helps me to look at those books from different angles.

I enjoy fierce discussions too.

13 minutes ago, slavagh said:

But you are right, we are running circles by now.

Yup, that's the problem. 

[slavagh]

11 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Good to know. I was afraid we're getting too heated, because sometimes it's really hard to know the tone and emotions of others. And I myself got more aggressive so I wanted to back down just in case. Sorry if you felt that.

All good. No problem at all

11 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Yes, it is, but you have all rights to defend your theory and you're doing quite a good job with that, at least with Honor helping Taln part, as I feel it's difficult to explain why this didn't happen and there aren't any concrete proofs for that, but it derailed into "are Shard and Vessel one or not".

It was quite difficult to defend this theory. In a good way. Never expected such a challenging detailed analysis, participation, and feedback. Really appreciate your time.

Edited August 23 by slavagh

[coolsnow7]

On 8/22/2023 at 9:53 AM, slavagh said:

This whole theory stems from my desire to redeem Tanavast. Because, even if what the rest of the heralds did to Taln was cruel, I can understand them. They were broken after thousands of years of torture. For Tanavast to not do something to help abandoned Taln is beyond evil. And I think he did something, something noble and stupid.

Up until recently, I assumed Honor's death was a consequence of trapping Odium in the Rosharan system. But the timeline doesn’t work. Odium is trapped on Roshar for at least 4500 years. And that is a minimum. It may be even before humans came on Roshar. There is no evidence that he is not trapped when he manipulated Ishar on Ashyn. And that many years is slightly pushing the term ‘slow death’ of the shard. I think something happened between Aharietiam and Recreance that directly led to Honor’s death.

First, I need to make a huge assumption. The Oathpact needs 10 people not only to share the pain of torture but to protect them from ‘magical’ insanity. The assumption is that if the heralds hadn’t abandoned Oathpact, they would still be broken people, but without that ‘magical’ madness.

So the theory is that Tanavast as the vessel joined the Oathpact alongside Taln. Or at least shared his pain of torture. But only two of them weren’t enough. Over time they both went mad (hence Honor’s ravings during the Recrenesance). That made the vessel of the shard weak and open to attack from Odium. Connection to Taln also made Tanavast partly connected to Braise.

As a bonus, it can explain why Odium was suspiciously inactive after Aharietiam. Why hasn’t he done the same thing the Mishram did – ignore the trapped fused and provide singers with the forms of power? It is better than nothing. And he can’t be trapped as BAM was. Tanavast actions bound Odium to the Oathpact and trapped him on Braise after Aharietiam.

Forget all the good reasons alder24 raises for why this theory is bad - the starting premise is just terrible. Honor is supposed to intervene in the Oathpact and if he doesn’t he’s evil? What? Why would anyone just naturally assume that he can intervene, much less that the shard of Honor would want to intervene to modify the outcome of an oath?

[slavagh]

17 hours ago, coolsnow7 said:

Forget all the good reasons alder24 raises for why this theory is bad - the starting premise is just terrible. Honor is supposed to intervene in the Oathpact and if he doesn’t he’s evil? What? Why would anyone just naturally assume that he can intervene, much less that the shard of Honor would want to intervene to modify the outcome of an oath?

Windrunners are close to Honor. Windrunner's motto is "Protect those who cannot protect themselves". Honor wants to help those who suffer. Honor wants to help Taln. That is my train of thought.

[alder24]

17 minutes ago, slavagh said:

Windrunners are close to Honor. Windrunner's motto is "Protect those who cannot protect themselves". Honor wants to help those who suffer. Honor wants to help Taln. That is my train of thought.

Highspren would disagree:

Spoiler

[...]

Questioner

The question kind of rooted because, Wyndle in the short story is always saying that he’s a cultivationspren, he doesn’t like [...]. I kind of got the idea that each order had a different Shard.

Brandon Sanderson

That is a good thing to think, but that is not how it is. Some of them self-identify more in certain ways. Syl is an honorspren, that’s what they call a honorspren, they self-identify as the closest to Honor. Is that true? Well, I don’t know. For instance, you might talk to different spren, who are like, no, highspren are like “We’re the ones most like Honor. We are the ones that keep oaths the best. Those honorspren will let their people break their oaths if they think it’s for a good cause. That’s not Honor-like.” There would be disagreement.

Questioner

Are you saying that the spren’s view of themself influences how they work?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh yeah, and humans’ view of them because spren are pieces of Investiture who have gained sapience, or sentience for the smaller spren, through human perception of those forces. For instance, whether or not Kaladin is keeping an oath is up to what Syl and Kaladin think is keeping that oath. It is not related to capital-T Truth, what is actually keeping the oath. Two windrunners can disagree on whether an oath has been kept or not.

Boskone 54 (Feb. 18, 2017)

 

[slavagh]

7 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Highspren would disagree:

Windrunners represent at least part of Honor. Honor has a lot of interpretations. Honor is bigger than just following oaths. I gravitate toward windrunners interpretation rather than skybreackers. That is just my subjective preference.

[alder24]

13 minutes ago, slavagh said:

Windrunners represent at least part of Honor. Honor has a lot of interpretations. Honor is bigger than just following oaths. I gravitate toward windrunners interpretation rather than skybreackers. That is just my subjective preference.

That was my point, it's subjective. Even Windrunners can disagree among each other. Honor is greater than any order's interpretation, so choosing just one of them is not a way to go.

[slavagh]

41 minutes ago, alder24 said:

That was my point, it's subjective. Even Windrunners can disagree among each other. Honor is greater than any order's interpretation, so choosing just one of them is not a way to go.

Different interpretations mean inherent conflict between them. Maybe the Shard has conflict within

[alder24]

28 minutes ago, slavagh said:

Different interpretations mean inherent conflict between them. Maybe the Shard has conflict within

Highly unlikely. Those are people's interpretations of Honor, not Tanavest's. It's what they think Honor is about, not Tanavest. That doesn't matter for Honor. A single word, like Honor, can't fully describe the scale of its Intent, Brandon was talking about in some WoBs, but yet in Cosmere people try to give precise meaning to Shards, which often simply miss most of their intent. So who is right? Skybreakers or Windrunners? Odium or Raboniel? Maybe all of them at once? There are even WoBs in which Brandon claims different things about Honor - he is about bonds, oaths and keeping them, later he's about justice and order, or the sense of being bound by rules, or maybe representation of natural laws. This simply means that Honor can't be defined that simply, and he encompasses many different aspects.

Spoiler

Pawell2812

Cultivation, Ruin, and Preservation seem like aspects of Adonalsium's cosmic nature rather than personality traits like other Shards. Is there a fourth Shard that is cosmic in nature?

Brandon Sanderson

I think they all are cosmic in nature. Even Honor, like you could say that's a personality trait, I don't think it is, I think it's a cosmic sense of justice and order, if that makes sense. We're phrasing it as a personality trait but that's not really what it is. There are those who would argue that the Shard of Honor is what makes things fall to the ground when you drop them and obey natural laws.

Ben Epic

Assuming the Dawnshards each represent four Shards, and considering their Intents seem to be similar, are Endowment, Cultivation, and Ruin all from the same category? Are they all Change Shards?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, I get what you're saying. I'm going to RAFO that for now.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 5 (Dec. 2, 2022)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

Shards. We started with fairly obvious ones, magic wise. Trying to keep this spoiler free, so: Ruin, Preservation, this kind of thing. Then we get the weird ones. Why do we have Shards that can only exist in the mind of a sentient creature? ...Like the concept of Honor can only be done when it's carried out, essentially, by a sentient creature.

Brandon Sanderson

So when I split Adonalsium I said, "I'm going to take aspects of Adonalsium's nature." And this involves personality to me. So the Shattering of Adonalsium was primal forces attached to certain aspects of personality. And so I view every one of them this way. And when I wrote Mistborn we had Ruin and Preservation. They are the primal forces of entropy and whatever you call the opposite, staying-the-same-ism-y. Like, you've got these two contrasts, between things changing and things not changing. And then humans do have a part, there's a personality. Ruin is a charged term for something that actually is the way that life exists. And Preservation is a charged term for stasis, for staying the same. And those are the personality aspects, and the way they are viewed by people and by the entity that was Adonalsium.

So I view this for all of them. Like, Honor is the sense of being bound by rules, even when those rules, you wouldn't have to be bound by. And there's this sense that that is noble, that's the honor aspect to it, but there's also something not honorable about Honor if taken from the other direction. So a lot of them do kind of have this both-- cultural component, I would say, that is trying to represent something that is also natural. And not all of them are gonna have a 100% balance between those two things, I would say, because there's only so many fundamental laws of the universe that I can ascribe personalities to in that way. 

So I find Honor very interesting, but I find Autonomy a very interesting one for the exact same reason. What does autonomy mean? We attach a lot to it, but what is the actual, if you get rid of the charged terms, what does it mean? And this is where you end up with things like Odium claiming "I am all emotion." Rather than-- But then there's a charged term for it that is associated with this Shard. I'm not going to tell you whether he's right or not, but he has an argument. 

Emerald City Comic Con 2018 (March 1, 2018)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

It was mentioned that there are 16 gods in your Cosmere.

Brandon Sanderson

Depends on your definition of god.

Questioner

Shards. Are the ten orders of the Knight Radiants related to specific gods? Because Honor, child of Honor-Kaladin

Brandon Sanderson

So all the magic on Roshar, all the surgebinding on Roshar, is going to have its roots in Honor and Cultivation. Um... There is some Odium influence too, but that’s mostly voidbinding, which is the map in the back of the first book.

Questioner

I was wondering how much-

Brandon Sanderson

But, but even the powers, it’s, it’s really this sort of thing. What’s going in Stormlight is that people are accessing fundamental forces of creation and laws of the universe. They’re accessing them through the filter of Cultivation and Honor. So, that’s not to say, on another world you couldn’t have someone influence gravity. Honor doesn’t belong to gravity. But bonds, and how to deal with bonds, and things like this, is an Honor thing. So the way Honor accesses gravity is, you make a bond between yourself and either a thing or a direction or things like that and you go. So it’s filtered through Honor’s visual, and some of the magics lean more Honor and some them lean more Cultivation, as you can obviously see, in the way that they take place.

[...]

Boskone 54 (Feb. 18, 2017)

 

[slavagh]

19 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Highly unlikely. Those are people's interpretations of Honor, not Tanavest's. It's what they think Honor is about, not Tanavest. That doesn't matter for Honor. A single word, like Honor, can't fully describe the scale of its Intent, Brandon was talking about in some WoBs, but yet in Cosmere people try to give precise meaning to Shards, which often simply miss most of their intent. So who is right? Skybreakers or Windrunners? Odium or Raboniel? Maybe all of them at once? There are even WoBs in which Brandon claims different things about Honor - he is about bonds, oaths and keeping them, later he's about justice and order, or the sense of being bound by rules, or maybe representation of natural laws. This simply means that Honor can't be defined that simply, and he encompasses many different aspects.

You are probably right. Shard can't be simply defined and can encompass many different aspects at once.