The father machine vacuum mechanism

[drunkenbotanist]

So the scariest to me thing about the father machine is how it slurped up an entire country worth of people and rendered their souls to black goo. There has to be some limiting principle on this, per the recent shardcast interview Brandon did (and probably meta reasons about preventing anyone from making whole-planet soul juice weapons).

 

Spoiler

Argent

Interesting! Very interesting! That's what I was hoping you would answer. Because Awakening is such a cool term for Awakening an object, right!

One notable difference between the father machine and Nightblood other than them using different magic systems to be Awakened is that the Machine was able to somehow draw people's souls at a distance, which seems EXTREMELY broken to me.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah. I had to let... This is going to be a pretty special circumstance for this book. But yes. It is pretty broken. You wouldn't want this to be... this could be very dangerous in the wrong hands. Don't expect this to be very commonly used in the Cosmere.

Argent

Was that a side effect of the magic system that was used to Awaken the Machine, or was there something else going on?

Brandon Sanderson

This is a side effect of what Virtuosity did and the bit of Virtuosity in all the people allowing the Machine to have enough of a plausible Connection to them to draw upon them.

Spoiler

 

 

The part I want to highlight is the possibility the father machine could do this because of the way Virtuosity's magic works.

I think the mechanism the father machine exploits is the way that Yoki-Hijo are made.

Yumi chapter 2:

Spoiler

Yumi did believe in signs. She had to; an omen had been the single most important event in her life. At her birth, a falling star had marked the sky—indicating that she had been chosen by the spirits. She’d been taken from her parents and raised to accomplish a holy and important duty.

Brandon said in 2021 that he was outlining a character chosen by society.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/472/#e14984

Spoiler

 

Brandon Sanderson

I just outlined a non-genetic magic system that I think is kind of interesting. I don't know if I'll ever get to write this book; I outline a lot of books that I don't get to write. But it was a really interesting idea for a magic system where a child was chosen by society when they were a newborn to gain the powers. You know, kind of for the good of society. And being one of these people, instead, I thought... Like I said, the implications are really interesting for that narrative story, is that you're forced, even from childhood you were chosen by everybody. You weren't born to it; but how do you choose a newborn? They just chose one, and now you've gotta live the rest of your life (Hope you picked a good one!) dealing with these implications. That's been very interesting to outline and think about, the effects on the character.

Questioner

Is that Cosmere or non-Cosmere?

Brandon Sanderson

That one is Cosmere.

 

 

 

 

 

Yumi chapter 2

Spoiler

Yumi was one of the Chosen, picked at birth, granted the ability to influence the hijo, the spirits. It was an enormous honor among her people.

Somehow Yumi had to be given the ability to influence the hijo after she was chosen.

Spoiler

“You were honored, of all the children born that year,” Liyun said, “to be given this calling, these powers. One of only fourteen currently living.”

“I know.”

“You are special.”

If the choosing of a new Yoki-Hijo involves investiture that comes from the people, some of the Virtuosity in all the people per WOB, then that could be the process that the father machine exploited. It took in energy from people because it was trying to become a Yoki-Hijo, or something like one.

[alder24]

3 hours ago, drunkenbotanist said:

So the scariest to me thing about the father machine is how it slurped up an entire country worth of people and rendered their souls to black goo. There has to be some limiting principle on this, per the recent shardcast interview Brandon did (and probably meta reasons about preventing anyone from making whole-planet soul juice weapons).

 

  Hide contents

Argent

Interesting! Very interesting! That's what I was hoping you would answer. Because Awakening is such a cool term for Awakening an object, right!

One notable difference between the father machine and Nightblood other than them using different magic systems to be Awakened is that the Machine was able to somehow draw people's souls at a distance, which seems EXTREMELY broken to me.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah. I had to let... This is going to be a pretty special circumstance for this book. But yes. It is pretty broken. You wouldn't want this to be... this could be very dangerous in the wrong hands. Don't expect this to be very commonly used in the Cosmere.

Argent

Was that a side effect of the magic system that was used to Awaken the Machine, or was there something else going on?

Brandon Sanderson

This is a side effect of what Virtuosity did and the bit of Virtuosity in all the people allowing the Machine to have enough of a plausible Connection to them to draw upon them.

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

The part I want to highlight is the possibility the father machine could do this because of the way Virtuosity's magic works.

I think the mechanism the father machine exploits is the way that Yoki-Hijo are made.

Yumi chapter 2:

  Reveal hidden contents

Yumi did believe in signs. She had to; an omen had been the single most important event in her life. At her birth, a falling star had marked the sky—indicating that she had been chosen by the spirits. She’d been taken from her parents and raised to accomplish a holy and important duty.

Brandon said in 2021 that he was outlining a character chosen by society.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/472/#e14984

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Brandon Sanderson

I just outlined a non-genetic magic system that I think is kind of interesting. I don't know if I'll ever get to write this book; I outline a lot of books that I don't get to write. But it was a really interesting idea for a magic system where a child was chosen by society when they were a newborn to gain the powers. You know, kind of for the good of society. And being one of these people, instead, I thought... Like I said, the implications are really interesting for that narrative story, is that you're forced, even from childhood you were chosen by everybody. You weren't born to it; but how do you choose a newborn? They just chose one, and now you've gotta live the rest of your life (Hope you picked a good one!) dealing with these implications. That's been very interesting to outline and think about, the effects on the character.

Questioner

Is that Cosmere or non-Cosmere?

Brandon Sanderson

That one is Cosmere.

 

 

 

 

 

Yumi chapter 2

  Reveal hidden contents

Yumi was one of the Chosen, picked at birth, granted the ability to influence the hijo, the spirits. It was an enormous honor among her people.

Somehow Yumi had to be given the ability to influence the hijo after she was chosen.

  Reveal hidden contents

“You were honored, of all the children born that year,” Liyun said, “to be given this calling, these powers. One of only fourteen currently living.”

“I know.”

“You are special.”

If the choosing of a new Yoki-Hijo involves investiture that comes from the people, some of the Virtuosity in all the people per WOB, then that could be the process that the father machine exploited. It took in energy from people because it was trying to become a Yoki-Hijo, or something like one.

Yeah, something like that. Sounds plausible, but I don't think it tried to become Yoki-Hijo, or that becoming Yoki-Hijo somehow drains people out of their investiture, rather than Spirits simply connect to that person or invest them. I think the machine was programmed to draw investiture from every soul connected to Virtuosity (per WoB, every Torian likely has a bit of innate investiture that came from Virtuosity, and thus is connected to her) but because nobody specified souls to be only Hijo (which are Splinters of Virtuosity, and thus have huge connection to Virtuosity), it drew from everyone connected to Virtuosity on the planet. This means that the nomad people, who were spared of this, weren't connected to Virtuosity. This ties up with your idea, as only Torio people are sufficiently connected to Virtuosity to become Yuki-Hijo.

[Rorzikel]

I think the fact that the shard the magic system belonged to was splintered meant that it was more uncontrolled. My thought was that it was similar to this concept about the nightmares lacking oversight from a shard.

Quote

ArgentSun

The way Painter transforms nightmares into other things is reminiscent of the way spren are affected by perception - only much more extreme. Is perception (and the way the world is set up) the only important factor here, or is Painter using Investiture too somehow?

Brandon Sanderson

What's going on here is not Painter using Investiture really. It's the fact that the nightmares have less control over them from another source. Spren have an oversight from Honor, Cultivation, and Odium, and this is kind of leaving them less at the whims of other people's perception. The nightmares do not have that. I'm not going to say they don't have it at all, but Painter is not using Investiture, but the nightmares are specifically more susceptible to what's going on. So for instance, a good way to answer this is if he went and did this for a spren he would not have the same level of power.

Secret Project #3 Reveal and Livestream (March 22, 2022)

My idea is less that this principle is the shard actively saying "no, don't do that" but that an unsplintered shard provides some kind of inherent stability, and that without that the magic can become dangerously unrestricted.

 

[alder24]

10 minutes ago, Rorzikel said:

I think the fact that the shard the magic system belonged to was splintered meant that it was more uncontrolled. My thought was that it was similar to this concept about the nightmares lacking oversight from a shard.

My idea is less that this principle is the shard actively saying "no, don't do that" but that an unsplintered shard provides some kind of inherent stability, and that without that the magic can become dangerously unrestricted.

Good point and good WoB. Now I wonder if Shades from Threnody could be shaped so easily like Nightmares. They also lack oversight from a Shard, as Autonomy is Splintered.

And we see magic getting dangerous and unrestricted after its Shard was Splintered - Surgebinding - the restrictions made by Honor are now gone. Bondsmiths are really dangerous now. However in that case Honor was actively preventing them from reaching that level of powers.

[Rorzikel]

2 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Good point and good WoB. Now I wonder if Shades from Threnody could be shaped so easily like Nightmares. They also lack oversight from a Shard, as Autonomy is Splintered.

And we see magic getting dangerous and unrestricted after its Shard was Splintered - Surgebinding - the restrictions made by Honor are now gone. Bondsmiths are really dangerous now. However in that case Honor was actively preventing them from reaching that level of powers.

Might be part of why Elantrians have so much raw potential and variability.

[Duxredux he/him]

On 9/1/2023 at 4:34 PM, alder24 said:

Good point and good WoB. Now I wonder if Shades from Threnody could be shaped so easily like Nightmares. They also lack oversight from a Shard, as Autonomy is Splintered.

I could see a few factors playing into this. The average Shade almost certainly will be easier to shape than spren but I'm uncertain on how they would compare to Nightmares.

On the easier side:

> Shades seem to be far less self-aware than the Nightmares had potential to be. A Cognitive Shadow's self-perception probably affects how mutable they are to outside Cognitive influence.

> Unless enraged, Shades are far more docile and may sit still longer than Nightmares, allowing more time to shape them.

On the more difficult side:

> Shades generally resemble the person they were in life though this fades as the Shade ages. Nightmares regained their awareness when shaped into the form they held in life. The fact that Shades look like what they used to may make them more resistant to being reshaped.

> Directly related to this is that humans are really good at seeing human characteristics. Seeing a Shade that already looks like a person may make it harder to see it as something else. This can be overcome with practice and training, but even then could be really difficult if it's someone you knew, i.e. your buddy who just got killed by a Shade and became a Shade.

> Nightmares specifically seek out and feed on fear and other Cognitive emotions, actively forming a Connection to the minds of those they interact with. I'm guessing this Connection makes Nightmares particularly susceptible to being reshaped by a Painter. Shades are disinterested in people and the PR in general unless they detect a violation of the Simple Rules. They also don't need (or at least don't seem to seek) sustenance from the minds of the living by forming a Connection with them.

There's probably other factors, but I'm guessing Shades would be generally harder to shape than Nightmares but still easier than spren.

Edited September 6, 2023 by Duxredux
added thought