Voidbinding Glyph Discovery!

[Firesong she/her]

I was looking at the image of Kharbranth in TWoK, and found something, there are strange symbols in the corners. 

Spoiler

Well, they looked very familiar to me:

Spoiler

Look at the Dustbringer analogue. They are identical. They are the exact same glyph. There is no way to look at them and say they aren't the same thing. 

This means that this image, or Kharbranth as a whole, has some connection with that Voidbinding Order. I am so excited to have found this, how have I not noticed this before!

Also, another thing, the centre two Orders don't have Surges. and also, the Division and Transportation Surges don't have connections to adjacent Surges, which they have in the Surgebinding chart. Which is intriguing. 

 

Edited August 16, 2023 by Firesong

[Underwater_Worldhopper he/him]

That's interesting, weird that it's never been noticed before. What do you think it could mean? Voidbinding was barely (if ever) explored before the True Desolation, so I think it's a stretch to say Kharbranth has a connection to Voidbinding Dustbringers (Dustbinders?) of the past. Could it maybe be foreshadowing?

It is weird that the Voidbinding Truthwatchers (Voidwatchers?) and Voidbinding Bondsmiths (Voidsmiths? Bondvoiders?) don't have Surges, but I don't know what that could mean, since we know Renarin has access to Surges. That said, we nearly could have gotten a Voidbringer Bondsmith, if the Sibling getting Unmade counts as Corrupting them.

Also, Division and Transportation probably do have connections to the other Surges, they're just behind the golden lines connecting the Voidbinding Orders. It's the same for the three Surges on the other side too, and you can see that the yellow connections between orders are on top of the purple connections between surges elsewhere on the chart. That one isn't supposed to mean anything, I'm sure.

Do we know where that picture of Kharbranth comes from?

Edited August 16, 2023 by Underwater_Worldhopper

[Firesong she/her]

45 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

That's interesting, weird that it's never been noticed before. What do you think it could mean? Voidbinding was barely (if ever) explored before the True Desolation, so I think it's a stretch to say Kharbranth has a connection to Voidbinding Dustbringers (Dustbinders?) of the past. Could it maybe be foreshadowing?

It is weird that the Voidbinding Truthwatchers (Voidwatchers?) and Voidbinding Bondsmiths (Voidsmiths? Bondvoiders?) don't have Surges, but I don't know what that could mean, since we know Renarin has access to Surges. That said, we nearly could have gotten a Voidbringer Bondsmith, if the Sibling getting Unmade counts as Corrupting them.

Also, Division and Transportation probably do have connections to the other Surges, they're just behind the golden lines connecting the Voidbinding Orders. It's the same for the three Surges on the other side too, and you can see that the yellow connections between orders are on top of the purple connections between surges elsewhere on the chart. That one isn't supposed to mean anything, I'm sure.

Do we know where that picture of Kharbranth comes from?

I don't think they do, as the surges only have 3 connections each, instead of the normal 4. So I don't think they would make it have 4, but they couldn't make them have 3 without ruining symmetry, thus went with 2. 

Also, it was in The Way of Kings. It was one of the Interior Arts. 

And on connections, common theories think the Voidbinding glyphs translate into Silver Kingdom names. Maybe Chach is Thalath? Yeah, I found it mentioned on the Glyph Transaltion forum, and they did transliterate it to Thalath (they also noticed the symbol appearing in the Kharbranth artwork before me, so it was noticed before )

Edited August 16, 2023 by Firesong

[alder24]

2 hours ago, Firesong said:

Look at the Dustbringer analogue. They are identical. They are the exact same glyph. There is no way to look at them and say they aren't the same thing. 

Sorry but I've failed my "Glyphology 101" class, In the future could you at least point direction?  But yes, the right, red symbol is the same as Kharbranth's one. Interesting.

And I definitely wasn't staring at the left, purple symbol for 5 minutes wondering how on storms are they similar. 

2 hours ago, Firesong said:

Also, another thing, the centre two Orders don't have Surges

And they are inside the gemstone. Curious. BAM can be one of them. We know that Re-Shephir was trapped in a gemstone in the past and now the Thrill is trapped too. And there is a connection between Voidbinding and Unmades.

What if the Sibling is another one in the gemstone? They were nearly unmade into 10th Unmade, she has a literal heart made out of gems, and I bet she could still bond with a person and grant him something.

Spoiler

dvoraen

"To see the future originates with the Unmade..." "Voidbinding is a dark and evil thing, and the soul of it was to try to divine the future." Is it therefore safe to say that Voidbinding, by extension, also originates with the Unmade?

Brandon Sanderson

Not always. But usually.

Skyward Pre-Release AMA (Oct. 22, 2018)

 

Spoiler

Starmie21

An image of my theory the unmade positions in Voidbinding chart

Could u tell me if atleast one of the unmade positions in the figure is right, or of the figure itself is wrong and I'm barking up the wrong tree?

Brandon Sanderson

I like what you're doing here [in associating the Unmade with positions on the Voidbinding chart], but I have to stamp a big RAFO on questions like this for now. (Sorry.)

General Reddit 2020 (Aug. 28, 2020)

 

2 hours ago, Firesong said:

the Division and Transportation Surges don't have connections to adjacent Surges, which they have in the Surgebinding chart. Which is intriguing. 

Right and left middle ones? If you look at other connections they tend to sometimes be behind the big, yellow "lightning" connections - I think that's what is happening with those two. They are there but behind because of artistic reasons.

1 hour ago, Firesong said:

I don't think they do, as the surges only have 3 connections each, instead of the normal 4. So I don't think they would make it have 4, but they couldn't make them have 3 without ruining symmetry, thus went with 2. 

2 is as far away from symmetry of 3 as 4. 

 

[Firesong she/her]

25 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Sorry but I've failed my "Glyphology 101" class, In the future could you at least point direction?  But yes, the right, red symbol is the same as Kharbranth's one. Interesting.

And I definitely wasn't staring at the left, purple symbol for 5 minutes wondering how on storms are they similar. 

And they are inside the gemstone. Curious. BAM can be one of them. We know that Re-Shephir was trapped in a gemstone in the past and now the Thrill is trapped too. And there is a connection between Voidbinding and Unmades.

What if the Sibling is another one in the gemstone? They were nearly unmade into 10th Unmade, she has a literal heart made out of gems, and I bet she could still bond with a person and grant him something.

  Reveal hidden contents

dvoraen

"To see the future originates with the Unmade..." "Voidbinding is a dark and evil thing, and the soul of it was to try to divine the future." Is it therefore safe to say that Voidbinding, by extension, also originates with the Unmade?

Brandon Sanderson

Not always. But usually.

Skyward Pre-Release AMA (Oct. 22, 2018)

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Starmie21

An image of my theory the unmade positions in Voidbinding chart

Could u tell me if atleast one of the unmade positions in the figure is right, or of the figure itself is wrong and I'm barking up the wrong tree?

Brandon Sanderson

I like what you're doing here [in associating the Unmade with positions on the Voidbinding chart], but I have to stamp a big RAFO on questions like this for now. (Sorry.)

General Reddit 2020 (Aug. 28, 2020)

 

Right and left middle ones? If you look at other connections they tend to sometimes be behind the big, yellow "lightning" connections - I think that's what is happening with those two. They are there but behind because of artistic reasons.

2 is as far away from symmetry of 3 as 4. 

 

"What if the Sibling is another one in the gemstone? They were nearly unmade into 10th Unmade, she has a literal heart made out of gems, and I bet she could still bond with a person and grant him something." Sibling is just they/them, and yeah, they could definitely bond if they were made into an Unmade, like, they can already bond when not Unmade. Don't see why it would change at all. 

It would make sense, we know that the Unmade have a parallel with each Order except Bondsmiths, so it would make sense that the Sibling would  have become the Bondsmith analogue. 

We already have a very clear idea for most of them based on a ton of similarities in essences and Attributes (I am 100% convinced on most of these, and will die on this hill, lol)

Windrunners = Ba-Ado-Mishram

Skybreakers = Dai-Gonarthis (last one left, and I guess Dai-Gonarthis is about consuming emotions and leaving people numb, and Skybreakers are about numbing themselves to be able to carry out law and justice for the "good of mankind" (even when it often isn't), regardless of their own moral code.) | Iri 

Dustbringers = Nergaoul | Thalath 

Edgedancers = Sja-Anat | Makabakam 

Truthwatchers = Chemoarish (due to being conflated with the Nightwatcher, who looks like a Mistspren in several ways, and is closely associated with Cultivation, who seems to be deeply connected with that side of the chart. One of the ones I am less sure on) | Rishir 

Lightweavers = Re-Shephir | Alethela 

Elsecallers = Moelach (Another one I am less sure about, I guess it can be connected to Wise and Careful. Also they are all about travel between Realms, and seeing the past and future is basically that) | Aimia 

Willshapers = Yelig-nar (It is literally sealed in an Amethyst, and grows Amethyst, it is pretty clear)  | Shin Kak Nish (Which has Kak in the name, or Kalak, which is 8, which is Willshapers, this is pretty solid)

Stonewards = Ashertmarn | Sela Tales

Bondsmiths =           | Valhav 

 

On the last part, yes, both would have horizontal and vertical symmetry. It just makes more sense to me to not let it be more than the average number of connections. 

Edited August 16, 2023 by Firesong

[alder24]

3 minutes ago, Firesong said:

We already have a very clear idea for most of them based on a ton of similarities in essences and Attributes (I am 100% convinced on most of these, and will die on this hill, lol)

Windrunners = Ba-Ado-Mishram

Skybreakers = Dai-Gonarthis (last one left, and I guess Dai-Gonarthis is about consuming emotions and leaving people numb, and Skybreakers are about numbing themselves to be able to carry out law and justice for the "good of mankind" (even when it often isn't), regardless of their own moral code.)

Dustbringers = Nergaoul

Edgedancers = Sja-Anat

Truthwatchers = Chemoarish (due to being conflated with the Nightwatcher, who looks like a Mistspren in several ways, and is closely associated with Cultivation, who seems to be deeply connected with that side of the chart. One of the ones I am less sure on)

Lightweavers = Re-Shephir 

Elsecallers = Moelach (Another one I am less sure about, I guess it can be connected to Wise and Careful. Also they are all about travel between Realms, and seeing the past and future is basically that)

Willshapers = Yelig-nar

Stonewards = Ashertmarn

Why? All of them why? I see one, maybe two fitting.

Skybreakers aren't numb, that's Nale. Skybreakers start not trusting in their judgment, but end up becoming the law - their 4th Ideal is a personal crusade, something very emotional. I think even Nale said at one point that they shouldn't be as emotionless as he is.
Dustbringers are about self control. Nergaoul fits as losing control. 
Edgedancess and Sja-Anat? Why?
Moelach fits more with Trustwatchers - Fortune is related, and he is related to madness as "he scratches in the mind of Jezrien".

[Firesong she/her]

59 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Why? All of them why? I see one, maybe two fitting.

Skybreakers aren't numb, that's Nale. Skybreakers start not trusting in their judgment, but end up becoming the law - their 4th Ideal is a personal crusade, something very emotional. I think even Nale said at one point that they shouldn't be as emotionless as he is.
Dustbringers are about self control. Nergaoul fits as losing control. 
Edgedancess and Sja-Anat? Why?
Moelach fits more with Trustwatchers - Fortune is related, and he is related to madness as "he scratches in the mind of Jezrien".

Oh boy, a lot of reasons

Sja-Anat and Edgedancers

1. She is a very loving mother (Loving)
2. She sees what she does to Spren as healing and Enlightening (Healing), but it also is seen by others as corruption (an Inversion of Healing)
3. She is mostly seen in reflected glass (Quartz, glass, crystal) this means reflected light (Lucentia, which is a Latin term for glowing or light)
4. Her eyes are always focused on, they are always white compared to the black of the rest of her (Body Focus Eyes)
5. Her eyes are always white (Edgedancers are associated with the colour white)
6. Edgedancers are very religious, she is basically an inversion in how she wants to be her own god.

Nergaoul and Dustbringers:

1. Dustbringers are associated with Red, Nergaoul is red
2. Dustbringers are associated with ruby, ruby is the polestone of Dustbringers, and Nergaoul was sealed in a ruby (And Yelig-nar was sealed in Amythest, and Jezrien was sealed in a Sapphire, these associations matter)
3. Dustbringers are associated with Bravery, and the Thrill instills a bravery in people that is so strong they lose sight of any danger
4. "The Thrill didn't hate. Though some spren could make decisions, others were like animals—primal, driven by a single overpowering directive. Live. Burn. Laugh. Or in this case, fight." Burn, it associated it with Burning, and Chach is about the Essence of Spark and Soulcasting Property of Fire. 
5. Another aspect of Chach is Obedience, and embracing the Thrill makes one more obedient to Odium. 
6. Dustbringers are associated with their destructive power, like that brought forth from the Thrill
7. Under the influence of Nergaoul, Dalinar burned down all of Rathalas, which is a big use of fire. (Less clear, but I thought I should mention it)
8. Dustbringers are about self-control and self-mastery, and Nergaoul makes one lose self-control

 

Yelig-Nar and Willshapers:

1. Yelig-nar is sealed away in an Amythest (Willshaper Polestone), and he makes Amythest grow from the consumed's body and forms a large Amethyst gemheart. 
2. He shines with a purple light (Colour of Willshapers)
3. Willshapers are all about making ones own choices, and Yelig-nar inverts this by consuming their wills
4. Wllshapers are builders, but Yelig-nar breaks down both body and soul. Furthering this idea, Kalak is associated with preservation, and Yelig-nar brings forth ones own destruction.
5. They are about freeing those in bondage, Yelig-nar puts one in bondage. (and is also bonded himself, kept locked away in a gemstone until consumed)
6. Guess the creation of carapace fits a bit with the body focus of Nails. Carapace is a similar material. (Vague, I know)

Lightweavers and Re-Shephir:

1. We see a lot about how opposed Re-Shephir is to Lightweavers
2. She is a creative force (as in one that creates), but is not creative, in that she can only copy (Creative Trait both manifesting as itself and its inverse)
3. She appears to have a very good memory with what she copies
4. Her mere presence distorts the artist creations of Lightweavers and makes them feel a sense of wrongness
5. Imitation like this is essentially a form of dishonest (Inversion of Honest)
6. She does show a particular attraction to violence and the shedding of blood (blood being associated with Shash and Lightweavers)
7. Lightweavers are associated with 6, and her Nightmare Essences in the Starfalls vision are pointed out as being six-legged. 
8. The Death Rattle about Re-Shephir happened in the month of Shash (Shashabev)

 

Windrunners and BAM:

1. She is a Highprincess of the Void, who wanted to lead the Singers (Leading)
2. She manipulates connection a bunch (Which is either Bondsmiths or Windrunners, and we don't have a Bondsmith Unmade)

Ashertmarn and Stonewards:

1. Stonewards are associated with Resourcefulness, and Ashertmarn brings one to waste massive amount of resources, both consuming a bunch, and letting a bunch rot (massive inversion of Resourcefulness)
2. Stonewards are Dependable, and those taken by the Revel cannot be depended upon as they become completely obsessed with their own decadence. We see when Aesudan gets taken, she can't be depended upon as Queen. Furthering this, he encourages one to abandon their responsibilities. 
3. It kind of uses an abstract idea of Cohesion, taking the firm and dependable, and making them soft and easy to twist and mold into decadence. 

 

Also, I edited the comment to include Silver Kingdom associations from a user who tried to translate them. And I am completely convinced on some of them (Thalath and Shin Kak Nish, particularly)

Edited August 16, 2023 by Firesong

[alder24]

6 minutes ago, Firesong said:

Oh boy, a lot of reasons

Yeah, that's what I needed.

9 minutes ago, Firesong said:

Nergaoul and Dustbringers:

1. Dustbringers are associated with Bravery, and the Thrill instills a bravery in people that is so strong they lose sight of any danger

True, but I would rather point out inversion - Dustbringers master self-control, why Nerhaoul makes people lose their control. Inversions are the biggest clues.

15 minutes ago, Firesong said:

Windrunners and BAM:

1. She is a Highprincess of the Void, who wanted to lead the Singers (Leading)
2. She manipulates connection a bunch (Which is either Bondsmiths or Windrunners, and we don't have a Bondsmith Unmade)

Not convinced on that one. Elsecallers fits too - the order attracts leaders and are great tacticians, wisdom and carefulness are great attributes of a leader, and whatever Mishram did to connect herself to all Singers wasn't something she was able to do before - that suggest scholarly nature and that she improved herself (just what Elsecallers do). I'm not arguing Mishram is with Elsecallers, just pointing out alternatives with weak arguments.

[Firesong she/her]

Just now, alder24 said:

Yeah, that's what I needed.

True, but I would rather point out inversion - Dustbringers master self-control, why Nerhaoul makes people lose their control. Inversions are the biggest clues.

Not convinced on that one. Elsecallers fits too - the order attracts leaders and are great tacticians, wisdom and carefulness are great attributes of a leader, and whatever Mishram did to connect herself to all Singers wasn't something she was able to do before - that suggest scholarly nature and that she improved herself (just what Elsecallers do). I'm not arguing Mishram is with Elsecallers, just pointing out alternatives with weak arguments.

True, but Elsecallers don't have the Connection control. 

I feel that Moelach fits there or in Truthwatchers, though. 

Corrupted Truthwatchers see the future. But I am still thinking about how Chemoarish has a lot of the features of Mistspren, with the solid face on an elemental body, and how she is conflated with the Nightwatcher, makes me feel there is some reason why she would be confused with her, and also "The wealth of it makes sorting lies from truths extremely difficult." it does bring up Truth. And also confusion with another being with watcher in the name. It just makes sense in my head, but it feels a lot weaker when I say it out loud. 

But we ultimately know basically nothing about Chemoarish, so it is hard to go in detail. 

[alder24]

Just now, Firesong said:

True, but Elsecallers don't have the Connection control. 

Odium forces, Fused and Unmades shouldn't have that as well.

2 minutes ago, Firesong said:

But I am still thinking about how Chemoarish has a lot of the features of Mistspren, with the solid face on an elemental body, and how she is conflated with the Nightwatcher, makes me feel there is some reason why she would be confused with her, and also "The wealth of it makes sorting lies from truths extremely difficult." it does bring up Truth. And also confusion with another being with watcher in the name. It just makes sense in my head, but it feels a lot weaker when I say it out loud. 

That doesn't work for me at all.That's very second handed connections.

3 minutes ago, Firesong said:

But we ultimately know basically nothing about Chemoarish, so it is hard to go in detail. 

True, that's why she and the Black Fisher are so hard. 

[Firesong she/her]

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

Odium forces, Fused and Unmades shouldn't have that as well.

That doesn't work for me at all.That's very second handed connections.

True, that's why she and the Black Fisher are so hard. 

At least the other ones we have make it so we can narrow it down a lot. But it is ultimately hard to fully decide, yeah. 

Hope some of those Unmade in Shinovar are some we haven't seen much of yet. 

We can be sure at least that SA4.5 will deal with Moelach, as he is in the Horneater Mountains during the time of SA4. 

Something strange, the Orders seem to still have axial symmetry (Honor and Cultivation), while the Surges have Rotational Symmetry (Odium). Maybe this implies that the Void Orders are closer to Surge Orders, while the Surges manifest in a far more different way? Furthermore, they all only have one axis of symmetry, but the Void Truthwatcher one (centre bottom), has two. It stands out, no other Order glyph, Void or Surge, has two axes of symmetry. The Void Edgedancer one (right to the one I just mentioned) is very close, but ultimately only has one axis of symmetry. So, 19/20 only have vertical symmetry, but not vertical. This can't be an accident, as it isn't some random Order, it is one of the ones in the central gem, and doesn't have any connecting Surges. (also, the glyph can be broken down into R-Sh-R. Which can mean Rishir, as the rest break down into Silver Kingdom names... but it can also be translated as Roshar.)

Edited August 16, 2023 by Firesong