Tamriel Wolfsbaine Posted August 5, 2023 Posted August 5, 2023 I was thinking about the benefits of a metal mace vs a wooden club and this question got me thinking. Is steel simply harder than whatever Tanavastium is? Nightblood chipped an honorblade. What does that mean? Is it that nightblood is so much more invested that it was able to do that? Or does the level of investment not matter as much as the material of the object? I am torn between these thoughts. A cloth with 1000 breaths could stop the magical cutting power of a shard but could it stop the razer edge? Kaladin sliced through the awakened cloth with no problems once Syl turned sharp. (Granted the cloth wasn't that invested... only a couple hundred breaths likely.) But in the case of Nightblood vs Tanavastium we have 2 highly invested objects vs eachother. Was it the investiture that caused one to be damaged? Or was it because one was steel and the other was a softer metal? If Nightblood were made from glass and contained the same investiture would he have still chipped the honorblade or would the glass sword have broken? Likewise would you maintain the same indestructable benefits if you were to put all of that breath into some form of wooden club or stick? What is more important in this scenario? The material the object is made from or the raw investiture that is put into it?
alder24 Posted August 5, 2023 Posted August 5, 2023 2 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: Is steel simply harder than whatever Tanavastium is? It looks like Tanavastium might be much harder and stronger than steel. We know from TLM that Harmonium is as soft as gold, which is 2.5 on the hardness scale and steel is 4.5. Trellium has the hardness of 9, which is just below diamond at 10, but is also very brittle. 2 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: Nightblood chipped an honorblade. What does that mean? It means it's far more invested than an Honorblade. That's it. In this case it's about investment nor physical properties. 2 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: A cloth with 1000 breaths could stop the magical cutting power of a shard but could it stop the razer edge? Kaladin sliced through the awakened cloth with no problems once Syl turned sharp. I will say no, because their souls are colliding (WoBs confirm significantly invested fabric can stop a Shardblade). It's different with aluminum which isn't invested and can be physically cut. 2 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: (Granted the cloth wasn't that invested... only a couple hundred breaths likely.) Definitely much less than that. Few dozens or tens. 2 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: But in the case of Nightblood vs Tanavastium we have 2 highly invested objects vs eachother. Was it the investiture that caused one to be damaged? Or was it because one was steel and the other was a softer metal? Investiture. If that was only because of steel, Shardblades and Honorblades would have been clipped long before that as it isn't so hard to hit its side or not-sharp edge with an iron/steel mace or sword. 2 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: If Nightblood were made from glass and contained the same investiture would he have still chipped the honorblade or would the glass sword have broken? Glass isn't a metal. Nightblood wouldn't work as glass. 2 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: Likewise would you maintain the same indestructable benefits if you were to put all of that breath into some form of wooden club or stick? If it was sentient? Very likely. A club wouldn't cut so it could behave very differently than Nightblood. 2 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: What is more important in this scenario? The material the object is made from or the raw investiture that is put into it? Investiture.
Tamriel Wolfsbaine Posted August 5, 2023 Author Posted August 5, 2023 12 minutes ago, alder24 said: It looks like Tanavastium might be much harder and stronger than steel. We know from TLM that Harmonium is as soft as gold, which is 2.5 on the hardness scale and steel is 4.5. Trellium has the hardness of 9, which is just below diamond at 10, but is also very brittle. It means it's far more invested than an Honorblade. That's it. In this case it's about investment nor physical properties. I will say no, because their souls are colliding (WoBs confirm significantly invested fabric can stop a Shardblade). It's different with aluminum which isn't invested and can be physically cut. Definitely much less than that. Few dozens or tens. Investiture. If that was only because of steel, Shardblades and Honorblades would have been clipped long before that as it isn't so hard to hit its side or not-sharp edge with an iron/steel mace or sword. Glass isn't a metal. Nightblood wouldn't work as glass. If it was sentient? Very likely. A club wouldn't cut so it could behave very differently than Nightblood. Investiture. I get that glass isn't metal. But a sword is a sword. Do you think Vin's glass daggers would view themselves as so lesser form of killer then a steel dagger?
alder24 Posted August 5, 2023 Posted August 5, 2023 3 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: I get that glass isn't metal. But a sword is a sword. Do you think Vin's glass daggers would view themselves as so lesser form of killer then a steel dagger? It matters in the case of Nightblood. Nightblood wouldn't work as a glass sword. Not like he works right now. Spoiler asmodeus If the only variable we change, during the creation of Nightblood, is to use a different Allomantically-viable metal (say, iron or bronze instead of steel), but keep everything else constant (the same Breaths, same people doing the same visualization, and whatever other factors were involved), would it have manifested different powers/capabilities? Brandon Sanderson Yes. Most likely. YouTube Spoiler Stream 3 (Dec. 16, 2021) As a glass sword it might work more or less like a regular Shardblade. Might, it's hard to say as apparently Nightblood can be treated as a god metal now. Spoiler Kael_the_Adventurer Did Nightblood's Awakening transform it into a God Metal? Brandon Sanderson *hesitant* Yes, you could say that. Adam Horne Was that a permanent change, or was that just while... Brandon Sanderson You can argue that Nightblood is a God Metal. Is he? You could argue otherwise as well. How about that? YouTube Spoiler Stream 4 (June 16, 2022)
Tamriel Wolfsbaine Posted August 5, 2023 Author Posted August 5, 2023 9 minutes ago, alder24 said: It matters in the case of Nightblood. Nightblood wouldn't work as a glass sword. Not like he works right now. Hide contents asmodeus If the only variable we change, during the creation of Nightblood, is to use a different Allomantically-viable metal (say, iron or bronze instead of steel), but keep everything else constant (the same Breaths, same people doing the same visualization, and whatever other factors were involved), would it have manifested different powers/capabilities? Brandon Sanderson Yes. Most likely. YouTube Spoiler Stream 3 (Dec. 16, 2021) As a glass sword it might work more or less like a regular Shardblade. Might, it's hard to say as apparently Nightblood can be treated as a god metal now. Hide contents Kael_the_Adventurer Did Nightblood's Awakening transform it into a God Metal? Brandon Sanderson *hesitant* Yes, you could say that. Adam Horne Was that a permanent change, or was that just while... Brandon Sanderson You can argue that Nightblood is a God Metal. Is he? You could argue otherwise as well. How about that? YouTube Spoiler Stream 4 (June 16, 2022) Okay. So enough investiture should* be enough to keep even a glass weapon from breaking in a clash. The investiture ties it all together. This leads me to 2 seemingly unrelated questions. Is the investiture changing the Axi? I believe Axi is what is being used as a term for the atoms in the cosmere now (Kelsier spoke about it when he spoke about seeing them through his spiked eye which apparently is any hemalurgically charged spike driven through the eye socket bind point as his doesn't really show to having any specific power at all?) In talking about investiture and blocking things it leads me to these other questions. If Kelsier were to put an eye patch over his spike would he still see the Axi? Does it show him just the first layer of atoms making up an outline? My other question would be how the investiture interferes with other systems. If I had a monkey fist with a large solid chunk of gold in the center of it for the weight (or some other better suited metal for that purpose) and I were to awaken the rope to swing itself around, would that ball be able to be seen and manipulated by allomamcers? Or do you think the rope, even with the minimum breaths used to awaken it, surrounding the solid metal ball would blot it out from sight? Kind of like how you can't push metal on someone who is on the other side of shardplate. (Of course that raises the question of if someone inside of shardplate could push on something outside of it? If the living shards would work differently?) I know these seem totally unrelated but I am curious about theories on how the investiture is effecting the objects around it and if it is simply filling gaps between atoms holding them together? Sorry this is a cluster of questions and I am just trying figure out the interactions between other items when playing with investiture. I know there is not a ton of evidence in the text for any of it but my guilty pleasure is to speculate, and try to convince others to join me in speculating, about these things.
alder24 Posted August 5, 2023 Posted August 5, 2023 43 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: Okay. So enough investiture should* be enough to keep even a glass weapon from breaking in a clash. The investiture ties it all together. It might or it might not. It's really hard to say. At least when struck by a real Shardblade it should work like a Shardblade. 33 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: Is the investiture changing the Axi? I believe Axi is what is being used as a term for the atoms in the cosmere now (Kelsier spoke about it when he spoke about seeing them through his spiked eye which apparently is any hemalurgically charged spike driven through the eye socket bind point as his doesn't really show to having any specific power at all?) Yes, but in a different way you think about it. Axi is the Cosmere term because it's composed of matter, energy and investiture, while atoms are composed of matter and energy. So yes, investiture changes Axi making them more invested, not necessarily transforming it into a different element (but one could argue this can be done, like with Awakening and considering now Nightblood as a god metal) 36 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: If Kelsier were to put an eye patch over his spike would he still see the Axi? Does it show him just the first layer of atoms making up an outline? An eye patch could be too little. Coinshots are able to see steel line through walls. A piece of material isn't that much. 37 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: My other question would be how the investiture interferes with other systems. If I had a monkey fist with a large solid chunk of gold in the center of it for the weight (or some other better suited metal for that purpose) and I were to awaken the rope to swing itself around, would that ball be able to be seen and manipulated by allomamcers? Or do you think the rope, even with the minimum breaths used to awaken it, surrounding the solid metal ball would blot it out from sight? Kind of like how you can't push metal on someone who is on the other side of shardplate. It depends how much Breaths are in this rope. It will make it harder for sure. But this should work, it's like putting a metalmind inside the body. 38 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said: (Of course that raises the question of if someone inside of shardplate could push on something outside of it? If the living shards would work differently?) Dead one would block it, living one might too, because different types of investiture are involved, investiture resist investiture, it might prevent your Allomancy from working outside.
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