Theory: Sunmaker Changed Vorin Theology

[Elwynn]

Where was there anything in Dalinar's visions that indicated that predicting the future was forbidden?

Starfalls chapter, pg. 307 in the hardback.

"To speak of what might be is forbidden..."

Though when taken in context, it doesn't necessarily mean old vorinism outlawed it. But kind of seems to point that way.

[Cheese Ninja]

Starfalls chapter, pg. 307 in the hardback.

Thank you. Here's the full quote, with everything besides the monologue removed. And the next ones.

“I miss these times.”

“They were one, once.”

“The orders. Men. Not without problems or strife, of course. But focused.”

“I wish I could help you.”

“You have to unite them.”

“To speak of what might be is forbidden.”

“To speak of what was depends on perspective. But I will try to help.”

“Yes.”

“This is important. Do not let strife consume you. Be strong. Act with honor, and honor will aid you.”

“I will give you what I can.”

“I am sorry for not giving more.”

Tanavast really should have realized how confusing he was making this for whoever he showed it to. This does seem to point at prophecy being forbidden, but it is also horribly vague. Why is speaking of the future forbidden? Prophecy isn't forbidden to Ruin and Preservation, and Tanavast acknowledges that Cultivation is better at seeing the future than him. It might be that it's only forbidden in certain contexts.

“They are the first,”

“They are the first,”

“They were the first, and they were also the last.”

“These events will go down in history,”

“They will be infamous. You will have many names for what happened here.”

“I have said I that cannot be of much help to you. The Night of Sorrows will come, and the True Desolation. The Everstorm.”

“Read the book. Unite them.”

The last one as a spoiler since it is long and actually needs the descriptions left in to make some sense.

“You must unite them,”

“Unite them. The sun approaches the horizon. The Everstorm comes. The True Desolation. The Night of Sorrows.”

“I cannot fight him any longer,” the voice said.

Dalinar jumped, glancing to the side. A man stood there. He had dark skin and pure white hair. Tall, thick of chest but not massive, he wore exotic clothing of a strange cut: loose, billowing trousers and a coat that came down only to his waist. Both seemed made of gold.

“You can see it there,” the figure said, pointing. “If you look closely. It begins in the distance.”

Dalinar glanced in that direction, annoyed. He couldn’t make out anything specific.

The man didn’t answer. He just kept pointing. And… yes, something was happening. There was a shadow in the air, approaching. A wall of darkness. Like a highstorm, only wrong.

“You’re probably wondering if this is a vision of the future.”

The figure squinted at the horizon. “I cannot see the future completely. Cultivation, she is better at it than I. It’s as if the future is a shattering window. The further you look, the more pieces that window breaks into. The near future can be anticipated, but the distant future… I can only guess.”

“That is what could happen,” the figure said, nodding into the distance. “It’s what I fear will happen. It’s what he wants. The True Desolation.”

No, that wall in the air wasn’t a highstorm. It wasn’t rain making that enormous shadow, but blowing dust. He remembered this vision in full, now. It had ended here, with him confused, staring out at that oncoming wall of dust. This time, however, the vision continued.

The figure turned to him. “I am sorry to do this to you. By now I hope that what you’ve seen has given you a foundation to understand. But I can’t know for certain. I don’t know who you are, or how you have found your way here.”

“Most of what I show you are scenes I have seen directly,” the figure said. “But some, such as this one, are born out of my fears. If I fear it, then you should too.”

The land was trembling. The wall of dust was being caused by something. Something approaching.

The ground was falling away.

Dalinar gasped. The very rocks ahead were shattering, breaking apart, becoming dust. He backed away as everything began to shake, a massive earthquake accompanied by a terrible roar of dying rocks. He fell to the ground.

There was an awful, grinding, terrifying moment of nightmare. The shaking, the destruction, the sounds of the land itself seeming to die.

Then it was past. Dalinar breathed in and out before rising on unsteady legs. He and the figure stood on a solitary pinnacle of rock. A little section that—for some reason—had been protected. It was like a stone pillar a few paces wide, rising high into the air.

Around it, the land was gone. Kholinar was gone. It had all fallen away into unplumbed darkness below. He felt vertigo, standing on the tiny bit of rock that—impossibly—remained.

The figure looked about, sorrowful. “I can’t leave much. Just these few images, given to you. Whoever you are.”

The figure looked into the sky. “I don’t even know if anyone will ever see this. I am gone, you see.”

Dalinar didn’t respond. He looked over the sheer pinnacle, down at a void, horrified.

“This isn’t just about you either,” the figure said, raising his hand into the air. A light winked out in the sky, one that Dalinar hadn’t realized was there. Then another winked out as well. The sun seemed to be growing dimmer.

“It’s about all of them,” the figure said. “I should have realized he’d come for me.”

The figure still stared into the sky. “I leave this, because there must be something. A hope to discover. A chance that someone will find what to do. Do you wish to fight him?”

“Someone must lead them.”

“Someone must unite them.”

“Someone must protect them.”

The figure was silent for a moment. Then he spoke in a clear, crisp voice. “Life before death. Strength before weakness. Journey before destination. Speak again the ancient oaths and return to men the Shards they once bore.” He turned to Dalinar, meeting his eyes. “The Knights Radiant must stand again.”

“Men must face them together,” the figure said, stepping up to Dalinar, placing a hand on his shoulder. “You cannot squabble as in times past. He’s realized that you, given time, will become your own enemies. That he doesn’t need to fight you. Not if he can make you forget, make you turn against one another. Your legends say that you won. But the truth is that we lost. And we are losing.”

“I wish I could do more,” repeated the figure in gold. “You might be able to get him to choose a champion. He is bound by some rules. All of us are. A champion could work well for you, but it is not certain. And… without the Dawnshards… Well, I have done what I can. It is a terrible, terrible thing to leave you alone.”

“I am… I was… God. The one you call the Almighty, the creator of mankind.” The figure closed his eyes. “And now I am dead. Odium has killed me. I am sorry.”

Heh, those lights winking out in the sky represent the two Shards on Sel, don't they?

Back on the main topic, even though I agree that Sunmaker changed and corrupted Vorinism, I don't want it to be as a result of Odium's influence. It bothers both the humanist in me that believes that the good or evil done by mankind is something solely decided by the the whims of mankind, and not godlike beings, and also the theme in the Stormlight Archive that most of the Roshar's failings come from the fact that they had no enemy to fight, and so fought each other instead.

Edited January 29, 2013 by Cheese Ninja

[ADIMORTIS]

I may be completely wrong about this but i think that one of the heralds was the Sunmaker, Most probably Kalak.

The sunmaker was a young person and the icons showing Kalak was also a young person.

He must have changer Vorin Theology to prevent people from knowing that the oathpact was broken, Talenelat abandoned and the heralds abandoning the people.

[Dros]

Well, I think the religion was more than likely changed to fit those in power's own views on Vorinism. It's quite a common thread throughout our own history. Pharoahs claiming they're actually dieties, priests claiming you must pay them to have access to scripture and confession, salvation etc.

So, in light of that, in my opinion there might be two reasons why New Vorinism says predicting the future is forbidden:

If you've ever studied religion you find some interesting things that have been banned. Necromancy, raising the dead, is banned in the Old Testament. Logically it must follow that there were a large group of people in power that thought people were actually practicing Necromancy and they didn't like it, so they made a law against it. This raises the question you must then ask: Were people really raising the dead and the powers in place at the time didn't like what the dead were saying or was it just a myth that people used to take advantage of others and the powers that were in place at the time put a stop to it because it was actually a scam?

For the Sunmaker to ban prediction of the future he either 1) thought it was just a false and abominable practice used to trick people or 2) it could really be done and he didn't like the prophecies.

I don't think the influence of Odium would be needed to make either decision. However, it's quite possible and might be a way Odium kept civilization in the dark. Do we know what the prophecies were? That might be quite an important piece of information. Is it possible the way Taravagian is collecting Death Quotes is the same as what the Old Vorin priests were doing?

[happyman]

Droz,

I'm sure you are correct about many religious practices, but from the books, I get the feeling that the ban against prophecy was very deeply held, even by the commoners. Szeth mentioned it one of his interludes; it even affects the nature of gambling. While I can see the leadership making that decision for its own reasons, that same decision sank very deeply into the culture. More deeply, in my opinion, than I have seen most decisions made from the top in any religion in real life. I feel like something very...real must have happened, and it must have been big to have left as deep an impact as it did.

[Vortaan]

 Tanavast really should have realized how confusing he was making this for whoever he showed it to. This does seem to point at prophecy being forbidden, but it is also horribly vague. Why is speaking of the future forbidden? Prophecy isn't forbidden to Ruin and Preservation, and Tanavast acknowledges that Cultivation is better at seeing the future than him. It might be that it's only forbidden in certain contexts.

 

 

Maybe it's not as vague as all that. All the Shards are bound by rules, but that doesn't mean they are all the same. Honor's shard deals more with connections and people, the now. Cultivation, by necessity, needs to plan for the future. Perhaps it's just as simple as Tanavast is unable to use his Shard to see much of the future because of the nature of his Intent. Note that both Ruin and Preservation require some forward planning, as does Endowment. The lack of prophecies on Sel (that we're aware of) could very well stem from the lack of whole Shards.

[Kolo]

Is it possible that the Sunmaker didn't directly remake Vorinism? Perhaps, under the influence of Odium, he encouraged a warlike society, without touching on the religion itself. The priesthood at that time would have either been severely weakened or completely gone. In that case, the religion could have reformed to suit the culture, and not the other way around. It would explain the deep prohibition against gambling. The people of that time did not want prophecies or predictions because they had been lied to. The priests decided that in order to keep from being hated by populace, they needed to make prophecy evil. Beyond that, I don't think the whole, "To speak of what might be is forbidden" is really all that important. More, its probably about all of that time travel stuff. When you speak of what could happen, it changes how people act, many times for the worse. Look at what happened on Scadrial: they knew that a HOA had to come because of the prophecies, and that caused them to believe in Alendi, leading to the Final Empire, not to mention the near- release of Ruin.  Notice, Tanavast doesn't say what will happen, but what might happen.

Edited June 13, 2013 by Kolo

[Phantom Monstrosity]

. Look at what happened on Scadrial: they knew that a HOA had to come because of the prophecies, and that caused them to believe in Alendi, leading to the Final Empire, not to mention the near- release of Ruin.

I'm not sure it's that good an example, because

[Shardlet]

Do we know which came first, the Sunmaker or the Recreance?  If the Sunmaker came first, the changes he made to Alethi society could well have resulted in the Radiants abandoning the people.  Also, was the Sunmaker before, after, or contemporary with the Heirocracy?  If he was contemporary, then he very likely would have had a significant impact and voice in the changes to Vorinism.  We know very little about the Heirocracy except that the priesthood was corrupt and loaded with false prophesies.  This led to ardents becoming chattel rather than having direct power, the rise of the devotaries, and the proscription of trying to fortell the future.

 

The best real world example of something like this (though admittedly it is still a clunky comparison) is the decline in influence of the Catholic Church in Europe.  (The only reason I consider this a comparison at all is the political power that the Church held Europe prior to the reformation.)  That took a looooong time to come about.  It was a gradual change.  WoK suggests, in comparison, that the Heirocracy was almost an event.  It suggests a short timeframe.  So we are talking major religious revolution happening.  The fact that the ardents took their new place in society leads me to believe it was a pretty ugly situation. 

 

It reminds me of the Kandra with the institution of the Contract.  Either we take this horrible deal or we are anihilated!

 

As to Honor saying "To speak of what might be is forbidden", I suspect that this was one of the terms of the Oathpact.  I doubt it has anything to do with the intent of his Shard.  Even if the Oathpact was broken at that point, I could still readily see Honor sticking to his part of the agreement regardless of the actions of others.  He is of course, Honor.  I also doubt that it has anything to do with anything outside of Roshar since I don't see any evidence of anything in the Cosmere being bigger than Adonalsium.  I doubt Tanavast had to sign a contract to take of Honor.

 

Edit: 100th post WOo HoO!

Edited June 13, 2013 by Shardlet

[Kurkistan]

Do we know which came first, the Sunmaker or the Recreance?

 

<snip>

 

The Recreance.

[Shardlet]

Thanks Kurk!  I figured that was the case.  In my mind, I have him placed near, if not at, the Heirocracy.

[Kurkistan]

No problem, I'm just glad I got there before Phantom, what with his unnatural quote-finding abilities. I think it's confirmed in-book that the Sunmaker was their during the Hierocracy, and caused the "failure" part of the "Failure of Vorinism" after the church (supposedly) tried for a takeover.

 

I haven't re-read in a bit, though, so the "Failure" might have been a period of time rather than an event, meaning that the Hierocracy would end with the Sunmaker, but begin at some point fairly far before his time.

[Cheese Ninja]

Actually, the first post of the thread has all the relevant important quotes, just not that picture.

 

My interpretation of that picture is that the Hierocracy itself was considered "the failure of Vorinism", which lead to a reinterpretation of the religion after that point. Another interesting thing from that first post is that Gavilar "had once revered" the name of the Sunmaker, so Gavilar probably didn't agree with all his views near the end of his life, and that doesn't speak well for the Sunmaker.  The Sunmaker was almost certainly directly involved in the end of the Hierocracy, since he interrogated the priests involved and investigated the priest's messages between each other.

[TwistedMisting]

Hmm, I think there's plenty of hints in the book that suggests that Vorinism has changed/been corrupted over time:

 

In the days of the KR, there was obviously no stigma over women learning to fight, as there were female radiants

In Dalinar's conversation with Nohadon it's obvious that men were not forbidden to read, as Nohadon refers to 'Karm' as a man of letters

I know it's a small detail, but the changes to the names of the Heralds is a little nudge to make readers think about how things get distorted over thousands of years: Kalak-Kelek, Jezrien to Jezerezeh etc

 

And then the biggest one - that the Heralds consciously chose to lie to the people. They broke the oathpact, telling the people that the battle had finally been won. We see later in the books how this is reiterated in Vorinism, with the belief that the Heralds left to battle the voidbringers in the Tranquelline Halls.

 

I think Brandon is making it very clear that it is possible everything the Vorin peoples believe could have been subverted.

 

From what little we know of the history of Vorinism, I can't see any holes in the theory that the Sunmaker changed Vorinism. Of course it's always possible that someone/something else caused those changes.

[Windrunner]

I wouldn't be surprised if Vorinism was somewhat different, but I certainly oppose any sort of conscious subversion, if only because he already played that card in Mistborn.

[Shardlet]

I wouldn't be surprised if Vorinism was somewhat different, but I certainly oppose any sort of conscious subversion, if only because he already played that card in Mistborn.

 

Mistborn had subversion by Ruin directly.  But even then, there was only tweaking.  As to TLR's actions, he didn't subvert religions he suppressed and destroyed them. 

 

The key difference in TWoK  would be, I presume subversion for personal gain rather than influenced by a Shard.  And even it was under Odium's influence, the subversion is different since this is the state religion of five nations.  The impact and theme is very different than subverting an ancient prophecy. 

[DocHoliday]

I wouldn't be surprised if Vorinism was somewhat different, but I certainly oppose any sort of conscious subversion, if only because he already played that card in Mistborn.

Ever heard the saying "if it ain't broke, don't fix it"? Warbreaker, Elantris, Mistborn all carry themes of something gone terribly wrong in religion. A lot of media today is just rehashing of a great show or theme. Why can't Cosmere works continue in a similar vein?

[Windrunner]

I have no problems with themes, but I don't want Odium or whatever to have specifically changed Vorinism to trick the people of Roshar because

Misborn Spoilers

Ruin altered the Terris religion to trick the people of Scadrial.

To me, that's not a theme, that's the same exact plot point. Brandon's a better writer than that, he doesn't need to rehash the same exact twist.

[DocHoliday]

Don't misunderstand, it doesn't have to be the same perversion.  Shardlet says it pretty well. Ruin can have his thing. Odium can trust things his way through division

[Windrunner]

I've read Shardlet's post and I still feel it would be lazy writing. I'd be less annoyed if a person had changed theology, rather than a Shard.

 

I would also like to point out that of the five Vorin "nations" by the time of the Era of Solitude, Natanatan is gone and Kharbranth has very little influence outside its borders, and the other Vorin kingdom isn't even known by your average person. The Terris religion on the other hand had spread far beyond the borders of Terris.

[Shardlet]

I don't know how much of the Terris religion was the prophecy.  At the end of the trilogy the only aspects of the religion we know about is that it is centered around Ruin and Preservation and that it contained the prophecy established by Preservation and corrupted by Ruin (yes, broad strokes, but that sums it up).  But, it is important to remember that this same prophecy was seeded throughout several other religions on Scadrial.  Also, it is important to note that Ruin changed aspects of the Prophecy to manipulate indivuals to a single goal, releasing Ruin from Preservation's prison.  Everything else was butter.  I don't anything other than that to indicate a broader corruption of the Terris religion.

In the case of Vorinism, I expect it will be a more banal source of corruption, people's quest for power and influence.  I don't think it will be particularly seeded by Odium himself.

[Windrunner]

You make valid points, but we might just have to agree to disagree. It may not bug you two, but to me it feels cheap.

 

But, it is important to remember that this same prophecy was seeded throughout several other religions on Scadrial

I'm not trying to cherrypick here, but I was wondering if you could remind me where we found this out?

[Shardlet]

Without getting into specific quotes, in HoA WoA, Sazed and Tindwyl's Hero of Ages research was greatly enhanced once they discovered that other cultures and religions spoke of the hero and the announcer, using different titles and names.  (I just reread Mistborn over the last month).

Edited July 9, 2013 by Shardlet

[Phantom Monstrosity]

The announcer is a complete fabrication though.

[Shardlet]

Whether or not the announcer was a complete fabrication is largely irrelevant since it was a pre-TLR fabrication.  If you'll recall, TenSoon referred to Sazed as "the Announcer" in HoA as he was about to leave Urtreau.  This is what brought Sazed out of his funk.  The Kandra did not have written records except the first contract which was inscribed in a metal plate.  Nor did they have metalminds since they were no longer feruchemists.  Their religion was handed down orally by a generation which was contemporary with Sazed as well as Alendi.  Thus, we know that the announcer fabrication pre-dated TLR. 

Edited July 9, 2013 by Shardlet