What Happened in the Elantris Postscript (Theory)

[Firesong she/her]

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u/Lobologo3

How did Hoid get Elantrian powers and access to the AonDor simply through an invite by Riina?

Brandon Sanderson

Just a little help for those in this one: new Hoid-centered epilogue to the 10th anniversary Elantris from ten or so years ago is relevant here. It's not going to tell you the specifics, I'm afraid, but what happened here should be seen in the context of that scene.

So, from this, I went and read the epilogue a few times and I think I know what happened. 

I believe that when he laid in the Perpendicularity, he did actually become Invested by the Dor. But he didn't become an Elantrian as it kinda just, sat around inside of him and did nothing. It is due to this that once he was chosen by Riina as an Elantrian, he instantly became one. The Investiture was already there and just needed to be told what to do. This I feel would explain everything perfectly. It also suggests that Dor Investiture doesn't really do anything when one takes it into themselves, and that the effect of becoming an Elantrian requires some special will and Connection to demand it to change ones body. 

Also, in the epilogue as well, he talked about eating "a purple frog-like creature with one or two extra legs" We know that Fain have 6 limbs, so I think this frog is likely a fain creature. Not that important, just something I noticed. 

[Underwater_Worldhopper he/him]

5 hours ago, Firesong said:

So, from this, I went and read the epilogue a few times and I think I know what happened. 

I believe that when he laid in the Perpendicularity, he did actually become Invested by the Dor. But he didn't become an Elantrian as it kinda just, sat around inside of him and did nothing. It is due to this that once he was chosen by Riina as an Elantrian, he instantly became one. The Investiture was already there and just needed to be told what to do. This I feel would explain everything perfectly. It also suggests that Dor Investiture doesn't really do anything when one takes it into themselves, and that the effect of becoming an Elantrian requires some special will and Connection to demand it to change ones body. 

Possible, but I don't think that's likely. Investiture doesn't just sit around in you for that long. Not to mention that the Investiture of that Perpendicularity is Devoted Investiture, not Dor. I always interpreted that WoB and the way Hoid becomes an Elantrian this way: To become an Elantrian, you need to have a specific Connection: one to the land of Arelon (Connection to Teoras could maybe also work), and then on top of that, you need to have actually undergone the process of change that the Shaod causes. This is based on this WoB:

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Questioner (paraphrased)

Could Shai Soul Forge herself into becoming an Elantrian?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

That would be really hard. First of all, she'd have to change where she's born, then Soul Forge the fact that she became an Elantrian. Even then, she'd probably look like an Elantrian, but not have any powers. There would probably need to be some kind of bridge, or she would need some kind of super push from AonDor to make it work.

Orem signing 2014 (Dec. 6, 2014)

Hoid accomplishes this like so: Firstly, he somehow acquires a Connection to Arelon, which is what he's relying on in the Epilogue of Elantris. He'd have been hoping that the reactivation of Elantris would trigger the Shaod to choose him. The fact that he bandaged himself up could maybe be him blocking himself from perceiving himself, which could interfere with the process. He is highly Invested, and the thoughts of Highly Invested beings tend to warp formless Investiture to fit. This could maybe explain why the Shaod tends to choose someone at night while they sleep, as they would be free from interference.

It finally works in ToTES because what Riina does is induce the transformation that turns someone into an Elantrian through that Connection to Arelon/Teoras that Hoid acquired. The Shaod amounts to one big AonDor Fabrial anyway, so you could theoretically turn a person of your choosing into an Elantrian by drawing the correct Aon equation. Riina could assumedly do this, as part of the Ire, who are extremely old and would have detailed knowledge of how the Shaod and Elantrianism work. In fact, it was probably part of the original curse she put on Hoid; an extremely intricate Aon equation detailing how and what he'd be cursed with, what he'd have to do to break the curse, and then something similar to whatever the Shaod's Aon equation is to cause the transformation. In fact, she might not have even needed to rely on whatever Connection Hoid acquired to Arelon, but could have granted it to him in that Aon, since we know Aons can manipulate Connection too.

AonDor then works for him because he was in Riina's spaceship, which she'd have outfitted with some source of Dor or other Investiture to power her AonDor, not because he'd have access to Investiture from so long ago.

5 hours ago, Firesong said:

Also, in the epilogue as well, he talked about eating "a purple frog-like creature with one or two extra legs" We know that Fain have 6 limbs, so I think this frog is likely a fain creature. Not that important, just something I noticed. 

That's actually quite clever, I could see that being the case. It would have had to have been before he became a Dawnshard though, since he can't eat meat once he does, and so far as we know, Fainlife when ingested is toxic to humans. Unsure where this would fall on the timeline, since I assumed Hoid would have become a Dawnshard during, just a bit before, or after the whole "Kill Adonalsium" plot, and that he was just a human beforehand. Maybe Hoid was Invested before that in some capacity, since he survived eating Fainlife as just a Yolish Lightweaver, something that doesn't inherently grant healing abilities (so far as we know). Maybe Fainlife just isn't that fatal, but I like the implications that he was already shaping up to be something special.

[Firesong she/her]

1 hour ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Possible, but I don't think that's likely. Investiture doesn't just sit around in you for that long. Not to mention that the Investiture of that Perpendicularity is Devoted Investiture, not Dor. I always interpreted that WoB and the way Hoid becomes an Elantrian this way: To become an Elantrian, you need to have a specific Connection: one to the land of Arelon (Connection to Teoras could maybe also work), and then on top of that, you need to have actually undergone the process of change that the Shaod causes. This is based on this WoB:

Hoid accomplishes this like so: Firstly, he somehow acquires a Connection to Arelon, which is what he's relying on in the Epilogue of Elantris. He'd have been hoping that the reactivation of Elantris would trigger the Shaod to choose him. The fact that he bandaged himself up could maybe be him blocking himself from perceiving himself, which could interfere with the process. He is highly Invested, and the thoughts of Highly Invested beings tend to warp formless Investiture to fit. This could maybe explain why the Shaod tends to choose someone at night while they sleep, as they would be free from interference.

It finally works in ToTES because what Riina does is induce the transformation that turns someone into an Elantrian through that Connection to Arelon/Teoras that Hoid acquired. The Shaod amounts to one big AonDor Fabrial anyway, so you could theoretically turn a person of your choosing into an Elantrian by drawing the correct Aon equation. Riina could assumedly do this, as part of the Ire, who are extremely old and would have detailed knowledge of how the Shaod and Elantrianism work. In fact, it was probably part of the original curse she put on Hoid; an extremely intricate Aon equation detailing how and what he'd be cursed with, what he'd have to do to break the curse, and then something similar to whatever the Shaod's Aon equation is to cause the transformation. In fact, she might not have even needed to rely on whatever Connection Hoid acquired to Arelon, but could have granted it to him in that Aon, since we know Aons can manipulate Connection too.

AonDor then works for him because he was in Riina's spaceship, which she'd have outfitted with some source of Dor or other Investiture to power her AonDor, not because he'd have access to Investiture from so long ago.

That's actually quite clever, I could see that being the case. It would have had to have been before he became a Dawnshard though, since he can't eat meat once he does, and so far as we know, Fainlife when ingested is toxic to humans. Unsure where this would fall on the timeline, since I assumed Hoid would have become a Dawnshard during, just a bit before, or after the whole "Kill Adonalsium" plot, and that he was just a human beforehand. Maybe Hoid was Invested before that in some capacity, since he survived eating Fainlife as just a Yolish Lightweaver, something that doesn't inherently grant healing abilities (so far as we know). Maybe Fainlife just isn't that fatal, but I like the implications that he was already shaping up to be something special.

I don't recall anything canonical showing fain as toxic, isn't that mostly Dragonsteel Prime and The Traveler stuff at the moment?

And yes, he probably just forged a Connection. I jus think it would make sense if it was about him taking in the Investiture, as well. But taking it in can make a Connection in of itself. What I do wonder though, is how exactly AonDor works outside of Sel, we don't fully understand how that works yet. There really isn't Dor to connect to when it is that far away (as you must remember, it is in the Cognitive Realm, not Spiritual, so distance matters). Definitely excited for answers on that. Some one definitely needs to ask how they power it next time we get a chance to ask Brandon questions. 

With Shay she had a bottle of Dor, which would explain what happened there. But with Hoid and Riina, that is much stranger. Maybe between TLM and TotES somebody, or some people, took up the Shards and forced them back into the Spiritual Realm. As Hoid when telling the story didn't mention anything about AonDor outside of Sel being strange, so it seems like that would be relatively common knowledge amongst Worldhoppers. And we also know the Elantris Trilogy being important to the whole Cosmere, and the Three Pillars of the Cosmere are based around those that deal with the Shards the most, and he said it would be necessary to write it by Era 3. So... maybe it is due to them being put back into  the SR, thus geographic limitations are erased. That could explain it. 

Also, for some reason the Skaze want Hoid to be an Elantrian, or want some Elantrian on their side, as they talked about "You promised us you would become an Elantrian", and seemed kinda pissed at him not becoming one. So, wonder what is going on there. 

Edited July 14, 2023 by Firesong

[Underwater_Worldhopper he/him]

1 minute ago, Firesong said:

I don't recall anything canonical showing fain as toxic, isn't that mostly Dragonsteel Prime and The Traveler stuff at the moment?

Yup, but outside of Sho Del and Xisis, we haven't seen anything about Fainlife, so I assume it still applies.

1 minute ago, Firesong said:

But taking it in can make a Connection in of itself.

Can it?

1 minute ago, Firesong said:

What I do wonder though, is how exactly AonDor works outside of Sel, we don't fully understand how that works yet. There really isn't Dor to connect to when it is that far away (as you must remember, it is in the Cognitive Realm, not Spiritual, so distance matters). Definitely excited for answers on that. Some one definitely needs to ask how they power it next time we get a chance to ask Brandon questions.

I just assumed it was like the Ire Fortress near Scadrial; Dor that was pumped there all the way from Sel. How that would apply to a movable ship, I couldn't guess, though it's probably just a store of Dor nearby that gets refilled somehow. Maybe Riina has a little spaceship container that can separate from her actual ship and go to the nearest Ire stronghold, and brings her back Dor routinely. 

1 minute ago, Firesong said:

With Shay she had a bottle of Dor, which would explain what happened there. But with Hoid and Riina, that is much stranger. Maybe between TLM and TotES somebody, or some people, took up the Shards and forced them back into the Spiritual Realm. As Hoid when telling the story didn't mention anything about AonDor outside of Sel being strange, so it seems like that would be relatively common knowledge amongst Worldhoppers. And we also know the Elantris Trilogy being important to the whole Cosmere, and the Three Pillars of the Cosmere are based around those that deal with the Shards the most, and he said it would be necessary to write it by Era 3. So... maybe it is due to them being put back into  the SR, thus geographic limitations are erased.

I doubt someone could take up the Dor like a regular Shard, not now that it's developing sentience. Plus in its unpurified form, it's dangerous and probably can't be absorbed, else every Worldhopper would be traveling to Sel's Subastral to absorb some of it or bottle some up and cart it off. Beyond that, to Ascend to it you'd need a Connection to the Dor itself and be aligned with its Intent. So far as we know, the Dor doesn't have an Intent, and you can't be Connected to the Dor itself, only to the land, which can serve as a vessel to channel the Dor. That's why Selish magic weakens with distance. If a person was Connected to the Dor directly, they could perform any Selish magic anywhere on Sel just as well, which isn't the case.

1 minute ago, Firesong said:

Also, for some reason the Skaze want Hoid to be an Elantrian, or want some Elantrian on their side, as they talked about "You promised us you would become an Elantrian", and seemed kinda pissed at him not becoming one. So, wonder what is going on there. 

The Skaze are Splinters of Dominion, so assumedly they like being in control and having power over others. Yet, the Skaze with Hoid says, and bitterly, I might add, "You think there isn’t poignant and undeniable humor in the fact that we are so reliant upon humankind? The entire universe laughs, Hoed. We’d have to be deaf not to hear it”.

The Skaze, like Seons, probably can't interact with the world much, so they're dependent on humans to act as their vassals. That means they have to play political games and use persuasion to get what they want, and if humans refused to listen to them or simply weren't there, the Skaze would be left impotent. Making a deal with Hoid, the help of the Skaze in his AonDor-achieving experiment in exchange for some sort of service rendered through said acquired AonDor, would have been something they'd desperately want, since AonDor Fabrials could help Skaze manifest physically, like Spren. That's just my guess based off of what little we know, though. 

[Firesong she/her]

9 minutes ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Yup, but outside of Sho Del and Xisis, we haven't seen anything about Fainlife, so I assume it still applies.

Can it?

I just assumed it was like the Ire Fortress near Scadrial; Dor that was pumped there all the way from Sel. How that would apply to a movable ship, I couldn't guess, though it's probably just a store of Dor nearby that gets refilled somehow. Maybe Riina has a little spaceship container that can separate from her actual ship and go to the nearest Ire stronghold, and brings her back Dor routinely. 

I doubt someone could take up the Dor like a regular Shard, not now that it's developing sentience. Plus in its unpurified form, it's dangerous and probably can't be absorbed, else every Worldhopper would be traveling to Sel's Subastral to absorb some of it or bottle some up and cart it off. Beyond that, to Ascend to it you'd need a Connection to the Dor itself and be aligned with its Intent. So far as we know, the Dor doesn't have an Intent, and you can't be Connected to the Dor itself, only to the land, which can serve as a vessel to channel the Dor. That's why Selish magic weakens with distance. If a person was Connected to the Dor directly, they could perform any Selish magic anywhere on Sel just as well, which isn't the case.

The Skaze are Splinters of Dominion, so assumedly they like being in control and having power over others. Yet, the Skaze with Hoid says, and bitterly, I might add, "You think there isn’t poignant and undeniable humor in the fact that we are so reliant upon humankind? The entire universe laughs, Hoed. We’d have to be deaf not to hear it”.

The Skaze, like Seons, probably can't interact with the world much, so they're dependent on humans to act as their vassals. That means they have to play political games and use persuasion to get what they want, and if humans refused to listen to them or simply weren't there, the Skaze would be left impotent. Making a deal with Hoid, the help of the Skaze in his AonDor-achieving experiment in exchange for some sort of service rendered through said acquired AonDor, would have been something they'd desperately want, since AonDor Fabrials could help Skaze manifest physically, like Spren. That's just my guess based off of what little we know, though. 

I mean, it definitely is gonna be difficult, but we don't fully understand the Dor yet. I totally believe there could be a way to take it up. We can't say anything for sure though. Not until at least the Elantris Trilogy is finished. 

I also believe that the Dor has some Intent, Investiture can have Intent and Identity even outside of the Spiritual Realm, so I don't see why they would completely lack Intent. It is just not gonna work in the same way as normal Shards. We know the Dor still has Identity to a degree, as they have to/can Unkey it (TLM). As I said, the Dor is weird and we have very little understanding of it. We literally don't even know what it looks like in the Subastral or how people are able to survive in said Subastral. All we can do is theorize until we get more information. 

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The Young Pyromancer

Theoretically, if the Dor-- ifSel became a Shard, would-- The biggest limiter on Shards is the Vessel's mind, would that be more limiting or less limiting?

Brandon Sanderson

...If the Dor were itself to become a Shard combining Devotion and Dominion, and were to pick up a Vessel? Because they're still Shards, they just don't have a Vessel.

The Young Pyromancer

So the land couldn't be Vessel?

Brandon Sanderson

The land itself? Of Arelon or of--

The Young Pyromancer

Of Sel.

Brandon Sanderson

The land of Sel would not count as a Vessel. You would say in terminology right now that Dominion and Devotion do not have Vessels in the same way that other Shards do.

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ParadoxSpren

If someone did, like what Dalinar did at the end of [Oathbringer], go on Sel, and they Ascended to take up the Dor, would they be stronger or weaker than Sazed?

Brandon Sanderson

If someone were able to take up the entire Dor, would they be stronger or weaker than Sazed? I would say equivalent.

ParadoxSpren

Aren't they all Shattered? Aren't they all Splintered, both of them?

Brandon Sanderson

The thing about it is, taking up the power-- taking up the power would-- So, I'll leave it at this. I would say equivalent. Everything still considered.

He didn't say it couldn't happen, and in fact implied it was actually possible. 

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Questioner

So we know that you can't just have someone-- If someone were to do something similar to Hoid, he can't just pop and go "Oh look, I can now do Allomancy or I can now do Surgebinding". What about Breath? If someone could somebody get Breath-- Maybe not *audio obscured* Could they still get the benefits of--

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, good question... Yes you can, actually. Breath is-- Once it is given to you, it is being keyed to you. Your Identity. So that transfer makes it yours to use however you want.

Questioner

So you could Awaken?

Brandon Sanderson

You could Awaken. If you-- If you were to somehow make it there, you would be able to Awaken. It's the easiest of magic systems to get the magic from, and then to manipulate. Because it has keyed into it Identity.

Questioner

*audio obscured*

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, you can take Breath onto another world. In fact, you've seen characters do this.

Questioner

*audio obscured*

Brandon Sanderson

It would work, yes.

Questioner

*audio obscured*

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, it would work the same way.

The only magic that is location-dependent--  The ones who aren't interested in this, just hum to yourself, okay? *laughter* You don't need to know any of this stuff to enjoy the books, okay? I write them so that you could just-- each series can be read independently, and enjoyed. There is behind the scenes stuff, and if you want to dig, it goes pretty deep.

So on Sel, we have AonDor. AonDor is based on the fact that the Dor, which is an amalgamation of Dominion and Devotion, has been pressed together and stuffed into the Cognitive Realm by Odium who didn't want it to gain sentience, as Investiture will do if it is left alone. It will either seek someone to be its Vessel or it will gain sentience. He pressed it in there; he pressed it together, which creates the violent reaction, because those two intents are opposed. And that is the foundation of the magic. Because it's stuck in the Cognitive Realm rather than the Spiritual Realm (the Spiritual Realm is location-independent; Cognitive Realm is location-dependent), it makes the magic on Sel only work in close proximity to what is keyed through there to the location they're keyed to. This has to do with Identity and Connection. Mostly Connection. So that means you can't do AonDor on another planet, but you can do other magics works anywhere, because they're drawing the magics specifically through either the place, or they're end-neutral, like Breath is, and you don't need any extra power.

This says that it still has Intent.

But again, we have very little on it. 

[alder24]

18 hours ago, Firesong said:

I believe that when he laid in the Perpendicularity, he did actually become Invested by the Dor. But he didn't become an Elantrian as it kinda just, sat around inside of him and did nothing.

Firstly, this is Devotion's perpendicularity, which is pure Devotion's investiture because of that. Secondly the human body is an imperfect vessel for investiture (Stormlight, Mists etc), it would eventually leak out of his body and we have no reason to believe that despite his state, his body is different in that regard. Possibly, because it's a liquid not gas, it would take longer to leak, but liquids are still getting out of a human body as sweat, tears or urine, Hoid would still lose it all after presumably thousands of years which had passed since Elantris till Tress.

18 hours ago, Firesong said:

It is due to this that once he was chosen by Riina as an Elantrian, he instantly became one. The Investiture was already there and just needed to be told what to do. This I feel would explain everything perfectly. It also suggests that Dor Investiture doesn't really do anything when one takes it into themselves, and that the effect of becoming an Elantrian requires some special will and Connection to demand it to change ones body. 

As @Underwater_Worldhopper said, you need two things to become Elantris. One is a Connection to Arelon, the other is to undergo transformation. Riina can just hack his body to grant him both of those things with AonDor and provide Dor for this transformation, or because of the nature of Elantiran, she had to just "invite" him to become one. But it can be possibly fueled by other types of investiture, just like healing - Hoid can heal due to Dawnshard's torment, he is Yelenish Lightwaver, a Mistborn and a Rosharan Lightweavers - he has access to at least 4 types of investiture, which could be use to fuel his transformation if Riina didn't provide it herself (which she should do because of the bet).

Spoiler

mail-mi

Could you spike Elantrian-ness? Like, could you Hemalurgically spike Elantrian-ness?

Brandon Sanderson

Theoretically, yes.

mail-mi

Could you out of a Reod Elantrian? The zombie ones?

Brandon Sanderson

Um, yes you could.

mail-mi

You could?

Brandon Sanderson

So what you would be spiking there is their Connection to...to the planet, first. That's gonna be the big important thing. So you're going to overwrite your Connection. Um, and then you're going to....it's going to be a complicated process because you're going to have to spike the actual ability to have been transformed, that's gonna be harder.

mail-mi

Okay.

Brandon Sanderson

Does that make sense?

mail-mi

Yeah, so it's gonna take two spikes.

Brandon Sanderson

It's gonna take two spikes.

mail-mi

Alright.

Brandon Sanderson

And you gonna have to get the right Connection to the right place. Let's say you spike somebody from MaiPon, and then you spike an Elantrian, you're not going to be able to use it, you're not connected to the right area.

Orem signing 2014 (Dec. 6, 2014)

 

10 hours ago, Firesong said:

But taking it in can make a Connection in of itself.

Can it? I don't think so. It's the opposite, you need a Connection to use Dor, that's why Dor needs to be unkeyed to be used by others, like in TLM. 

10 hours ago, Firesong said:

There really isn't Dor to connect to when it is that far away (as you must remember, it is in the Cognitive Realm, not Spiritual, so distance matters).

There is, tapping Connection to Elantris with F-duralumin can strengthen it and allow to use Dor all around Cosmere. That Connection is just very, very weak far away from Elantris. But it always exists.

Spoiler

DoritoJH

So, AonDor is super versatile and powerful.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, but region-locked!

DoritoJH

Yes, it is region locked, exactly. If a full Feruchemist using nicrosil were to create an unlocked medallion that allowed an Elantrian to store Connection to Elantris' location, would it let them use AonDor at full power as long as they were tapping that Connection?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. That should work just fine.

...

Just understand that the medallion's going to have to be usable by everyone in order to work. You're going to have to jump through some hoops, but I think what you want there would work. And for those of you listening, that would be the harder way to unlock AonDor. There are easier methods.

DragonCon 2019 (Aug. 31, 2019)

 

10 hours ago, Firesong said:

So... maybe it is due to them being put back into  the SR, thus geographic limitations are erased. That could explain it. 

I believe that by the time of Tress, Dor was restored back to SR. While we saw a map of Lumar on Riina's spaceship, it wasn’t glowing with Dor like the one made by Shai in TLM. That's why I believe Dor is fixed now.

[Underwater_Worldhopper he/him]

8 hours ago, Firesong said:

I mean, it definitely is gonna be difficult, but we don't fully understand the Dor yet. I totally believe there could be a way to take it up. We can't say anything for sure though. Not until at least the Elantris Trilogy is finished.

There definitely is a way, I just don't think it's achievable with our current understanding. In the WoB you quoted saying that it implied it was possible, Brandon could have been saying that "The thing about it is, taking up the power-- taking up the power would be impossible for a regular Vessel in the same way as other Shards, but if you somehow managed to Ascend to all of the Dor, you would be on the same level of power as Harmony". It's not strong enough evidence for me, even as far as implications go. The only reason I believe it can be Ascended to at all is because of this WoB:

Quote

Questioner

So Bavadin's avatars, right; Autonomy's avatars.

Brandon Sanderson

One of Bavadin's avatars. 

Questioner

Of those avatars, are some or all of them actual Splinters of Autonomy?

Brandon Sanderson

The terminology gets kind of sticky here. In Cosmere terms, some would say that counts as Splinters, some would say not. The avatars aren't necessarily aware but Bavadin always is. A lot of people in Cosmere would call that a Splinter. 

Questioner

My follow up to that would be, is it possible for a person to Ascend and become a Vessel of one of those Splinters?  

Brandon Sanderson

That is plausible. Yes. It could happen. It would be tough because they will have personalities of their own and so something would need to happen... but yeah.

Starsight Release Party (Nov. 26, 2019)

 

8 hours ago, Firesong said:

I also believe that the Dor has some Intent, Investiture can have Intent and Identity even outside of the Spiritual Realm, so I don't see why they would completely lack Intent. It is just not gonna work in the same way as normal Shards. We know the Dor still has Identity to a degree, as they have to/can Unkey it (TLM). As I said, the Dor is weird and we have very little understanding of it. We literally don't even know what it looks like in the Subastral or how people are able to survive in said Subastral. All we can do is theorize until we get more information. 

It would have the base Intent of Devotion and Dominion somewhere, like how Harmony still has Preservation and Ruin separate within him, but we don't know if it has an Intent of its own beyond that. It's likely that it does, but until we know what it is, it might be hard for someone to Ascend to it, if that's possible.

8 hours ago, Firesong said:

This says that it still has Intent.

This says that Dominion and Devotion had Intents.

8 hours ago, Firesong said:

But again, we have very little on it. 

Waiting for the day that an Elantris sequel comes out

[Firesong she/her]

4 hours ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

There definitely is a way, I just don't think it's achievable with our current understanding. In the WoB you quoted saying that it implied it was possible, Brandon could have been saying that "The thing about it is, taking up the power-- taking up the power would be impossible for a regular Vessel in the same way as other Shards, but if you somehow managed to Ascend to all of the Dor, you would be on the same level of power as Harmony". It's not strong enough evidence for me, even as far as implications go. The only reason I believe it can be Ascended to at all is because of this WoB:

 

It would have the base Intent of Devotion and Dominion somewhere, like how Harmony still has Preservation and Ruin separate within him, but we don't know if it has an Intent of its own beyond that. It's likely that it does, but until we know what it is, it might be hard for someone to Ascend to it, if that's possible.

This says that Dominion and Devotion had Intents.

Waiting for the day that an Elantris sequel comes out

I feel that it implied that they still function based on those Intents, but again, in a different way we don't fully understand, and I am very interested to see how it works. 

And on an Intent of its own, yeah, it probably doesn't. Didn't mean to say it did. But I still feel both can be potentially taken up under special circumstances, like what Sazed did. But, again, this is just a theory. And one I do believe would happen as the only reason I think that would make Sel so relevant as to be on the same level a Mistborn and Stormlight, would be an Ascension. As if you look, both Mistborn and Stormlight feature the passing of Shards onto a new person (and theories posit that we will see more of that in Stormlight later), so I feel that Sel might follow the same pattern. Somehow, the Dor gets fixed, in a way that lets it be taken up as a Shard, or as two Shards. 

And I too am waiting for that day, but he did say once he is planning to write it alongside Era 3, as it is going to be important in the timeline around that Era. (Which, as I mentioned, might be the return of D&D to the SR, and them being taken up as Shards, individually or together)

 

And him becoming an Elantrian due to Connection, I mean, yeah, that is definitely a very big part. I was just talking about how it instantly made him become an Elantrian and have access to the Dor (though, he wouldn't need it for AonDor if the Dor does in fact go back to the SR). So I felt that there was probably something still within him that initiated the transformation after the Connection was formed, but I very much could be wrong, as yes, indeed, Investiture goes from a place of high concentration to low concentration, which includes how Invested people lose Investiture to a lower Investiture environment. 

To expand on that, when the environment is more Invested than them, they take it in as it flows into them. I feel this would also imply how the more Invested somebody is, the harder it is to effect them with Investiture. Due to Investiture inherently not wanting to go into a place of denser Investiture. It is at the very least a related concept. 

So, yeah, it was probably not from that exact scene, now that I think about it. 

Edited July 15, 2023 by Firesong

[Underwater_Worldhopper he/him]

 

27 minutes ago, Firesong said:

To expand on that, when the environment is more Invested than them, they take it in as it flows into them. I feel this would also imply how the more Invested somebody is, the harder it is to effect them with Investiture. Due to Investiture inherently not wanting to go into a place of denser Investiture. It is at the very least a related concept. 

That is exactly it. I see a lot of people on the shard mistaking this to mean that Investiture repels Investiture, which isn't the case. That kind of thing is unique to Bavadinium/Trellium, and isn't a property of Investiture on its own. Instead, it's just common sense, and basic physics, if that. You can't more water into a glass that's already full, so it's harder to affect Invested things because you're trying to add more water to a glass that's already full. It's not the Investiture repelling each other, but the inherent difficulty of forcing more stuff into something that's already chock full of the stuff already. Also, diffusion applies here too. Investiture, just like fluid matter, flows from an area of high concentration to an area of low concentration. That's why you can affect unInvested objects and things easily, but once the target is also Invested, you switch from something akin to diffusion to something akin to active transport, where effort is required to achieve an effect.

[Firesong she/her]

1 hour ago, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

 

That is exactly it. I see a lot of people on the shard mistaking this to mean that Investiture repels Investiture, which isn't the case. That kind of thing is unique to Bavadinium/Trellium, and isn't a property of Investiture on its own. Instead, it's just common sense, and basic physics, if that. You can't more water into a glass that's already full, so it's harder to affect Invested things because you're trying to add more water to a glass that's already full. It's not the Investiture repelling each other, but the inherent difficulty of forcing more stuff into something that's already chock full of the stuff already. Also, diffusion applies here too. Investiture, just like fluid matter, flows from an area of high concentration to an area of low concentration. That's why you can affect unInvested objects and things easily, but once the target is also Invested, you switch from something akin to diffusion to something akin to active transport, where effort is required to achieve an effect.

I do feel Identity is also relevant in the matter, and it is basically just a mix of Identity and the Second Law of Investiture. 

And with Trellium, I see that as it just wanting to remain independent, thus it resists anything that could corrupt it (But it seems perfectly happy to corrupt other things). It is basically the Identity aspect of the resistance, cranked up to 11.  

[Leuthie]

https://coppermind.net/wiki/Moon_Scepter

This was my first thought when I read the end of Tress. The Moon Scepter had to have something to do with Hoid's process in becoming Elantrian. According to the new postscript Hoid thought that correcting the Aon Rao of Elantris (or something else at the end of Elantris) would make him Elantrian. He made a deal with the Skaze that hinged on the change. Interesting considering a deal with an Elantrian ended up doing the trick.

I don't think entering the Perpendicularity had anything to do with Hoid becoming Elantrian. I think he was just leaving Sel. It's the deal with the Skaze that Brandon's quote at the start of the thread is pointing to. Sufficiently Bound deals with entities that are pure Investiture probably creates Connection to that Investiture that can be used for other purposes.

Don't have an answer, but Connection to Dominion, a translation device, and a Bridge provided by Riina, seem to be some solid ingredients.

[Firesong she/her]

14 hours ago, Leuthie said:

https://coppermind.net/wiki/Moon_Scepter

This was my first thought when I read the end of Tress. The Moon Scepter had to have something to do with Hoid's process in becoming Elantrian. According to the new postscript Hoid thought that correcting the Aon Rao of Elantris (or something else at the end of Elantris) would make him Elantrian. He made a deal with the Skaze that hinged on the change. Interesting considering a deal with an Elantrian ended up doing the trick.

I don't think entering the Perpendicularity had anything to do with Hoid becoming Elantrian. I think he was just leaving Sel. It's the deal with the Skaze that Brandon's quote at the start of the thread is pointing to. Sufficiently Bound deals with entities that are pure Investiture probably creates Connection to that Investiture that can be used for other purposes.

Don't have an answer, but Connection to Dominion, a translation device, and a Bridge provided by Riina, seem to be some solid ingredients.

True, it could be the agreement. But I interpreted the agreement as like, they help him become an Elantrian, and he helps them with something. But it definitely could be a factor in his transformation. 

His failure to transform I do definitely feel is a motivator in him stealing the Moon Scepter. This I feel can be further backed by

Quote

ParadoxicalZen

How exactly is the Moon Scepter linked to the Dor?

Brandon Sanderson

The Moon Scepter is-- I suppose I can canonize this, now. Okay you're getting one out of me. So the big thing about the Moon Scepter that it was-- It is a Rosetta stone for the [Selish] magics. Meaning it translates them from one to another, and what the different symbols mean, does that make sense.

He says now, and this was in 2015, after the Postscript would be released, and in 2018

Quote

Questioner

Are we ever going to see the Moon Scepter on screen and what it does?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, you should see the Moon Scepter on screen. What it does is it works as a kind of Rosetta Stone for interpreting some of the magics.

Questioner

So that's why Hoid wanted it?

Brandon Sanderson

That's why Hoid wanted it, yes. He's  trying to figure out how to give himself-- To be able to use the magics on Sel, and that's a key that he wanted.

So, I feel we can basically confirm he wanted it to help become an Elantrian.

Also, maybe it is made out of Dor Metal! It is deeply connected with Aons and Selish Magic Systems, and its colour is

Quote

Botanica

Ah, I see. Thank you! So what color is Selish moon when we look at it? (I suppose there's only one moon?) Didn't find any specific descriptions about its color in books. Can we assume it is similar to our moon?

Brandon Sanderson

I didn't say it was the color of Sel's moon...

Just kidding. It is, and there is only one. It's a pale white blue, a little more blue than ours, but similar.

So, it might be made out of either Dor Metal, or the Metal of either Devotion or Dominion. I at least feel it is definitely a God Metal, due to how deeply connected to Selish Investiture and magic it is. 

Quote

Questioner

Is there a metal form of the Dor?

Brandon Sanderson

There is a metal form of the Dor.

Hope this theory is right. 

Edit: And all we really know about the Moon Scepter (in terms of appearance) is it is a pale blue ruyi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruyi_(scepter)) with aons on the side. So nothing going against it being metallic. In fact, the colour definitely makes me think God Metal. As it does seem that Shards often effect moons (Like how the three moons on Roshar matches the colour of the Investiture of the three Shards in the system); like, we know the moons were there beforehand, but I doubt the colours are a coincidence; so it is possible that the moon on Sel is the same. Not exactly the same, but White Sand also has a very strange moon, as described in the astronomy section of the Omnibus. 

Scadrial has no moon so can't say anything for that. 

Nalthis does have a moon but we get very little on Rrendos. 

Thus having the same colour as the moon would connect it to the Investiture of inhabiting Shards. 

Edited July 18, 2023 by Firesong