Ym

[Griff he/him]

This topic has more then likely been brought up before but having just finished a re-read of WOR and having a nose through the coppermind wiki, i think Ym should be removed from the Truthwatcher section. 

 

We have no evidence that he is a Truthwatcher, and there is seemingly more evidence that he is in fact an Edgedancer.

 

Im not saying either way that he is one or the other but if you look at the evidence i think it is premature to label him as a truthwatcher.

 

Evidence of Edgedancer:

 

1. Ym's chapter icons are of Vedeledev who is the Herald associated with the Edgedancers

 

2. “ I will remember those who have been forgotten.”— The Second Ideal of the Edgedancers^[3]                                       Fits with his looking for the stories of the children instead of charging for his shoes. 

 

3.Historically there are referred to as: The most articulate and refined of the radiants. They were considered things of beauty. But would also ignore things of great import in favor of smaller things as some would see it.

Example of this again is looking for stories of individuals over worldly concerns  (i admit this could be more due to the religion of the one). 

 

4. Ym's spren is quite like Lifts spren if you think about it. Lift is partially in the cognitive realm and hence why she would she wyndle differently. The crystals Lift sees on wyndle could be the lights of Ym's spren and all that is visible without Lifts special ability.

 

5. Truthwatchers are described as: Silent and secretive most of the time and were considered esoteric. This doesnt seem to fit Ym in my opinion.

 

Evidence of Truthwatcher:

 

1. Only evidence i see of this is Ym's spren doesn't resemble Lifts spren. Which i described above.

 

The Divine attributes of Paliah (Truthwatchers) are learned and giving.

The divine attributes of Vedeledev (Edgedancers) are loving and healing

 

Either ones could be argued so that is why i left them out.

 

The point of Yms interlude could be to illustrate just how special Lifts ability actually is and the differences this ability allows her.

 

As i said earlier im not arguing that Ym is an Edgedancer and not a Truthwatcher. He might well prove to be a Truthwatcher i just think having him on the Truthwatcher section of the coppermind wiki is premature and misleading to a degree and should be changed until it is confirmed as he fits Edgedancers more then Truthwatchers.

 

Any thoughts are welcome i might have missed something.

 

 

 

 

[Moogle]

WoB:

Question

Does each specific order have their own spren that they would bond?

 

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. Each order has a spren that is distinctive. All Windrunners come from wind— from honorspren.

(source)

 

Wyndle and Ym's spren are very different from each other. Wyndle is a moving vine, and Ym's spren is a floating light. There's no way they are the same type of spren.

 

Ym's:

Something moved in the dimness to his right. Ym glanced in that direction, but didn’t change his posture. The spren had been coming more often lately— specks of light, like those from a piece of crystal suspended in a sunbeam.
...

He stopped beside the old barber shop, dark inside, door locked. The little spren moved along beside him, a shimmering light that sprayed outward in a circle.

 

Wyndle's:

... a thin, twisting trail of vines grew out of the darkness and approached Lift. It looked like a little stream of spilled water picking its way across the floor. Here and there, bits of clear crystal peeked out of the vines, like sections of quartz in otherwise dark stone. Those weren’t sharp, but smooth like polished glass, and didn’t glow with Stormlight. The vines grew super-fast, curling about one another in a tangle that formed a face.

 

As well, each spren embodies their Surges. Pattern is very obviously of Transformation and Illumination (which includes waveforms in general), while Syl is very obviously of Pressure and Gravity. Wyndle fits well as Growth and Friction. And, conveniently, the Truthwatchers have Illumination and Growth, and Ym's spren is a growing light.

 

As to your other points:

• Kaladin also gets Vedeledev all the time. Chapter icons are not that meaningful. In this case, the meaning of them was likely focused more on the "healing" bit with Ym, as that forms the central part of the chapter. When Kaladin heals people, he also gets the Vedeledev symbol.
• "I will remember those who have been forgotten" also fits in well with the Truthwatchers wanting to learn/spy on everything.
• Ym is in no way "a thing of beauty", nor is he articulate, and he knows nothing of the upcoming Desolation so I wouldn't say he's ignoring important things at all.
• Lift could be viewing her spren differently, but nothing gets around the part where Wyndle is confined to the ground and Ym's spren is not. This is a pretty big deal. Also, Wyndle doesn't glow while Ym's spren does.
• Ym is certainly esoteric, and the traits of each order are stereotypes and aren't going to fit each member.

I don't want to say there's no way Ym is an Edgedancer, but I'm giving him less than 1% odds. He's pretty much definitely a Truthwatcher. I don't think it's premature of the Coppermind at all.

Edited July 17, 2014 by Moogle

[Edgedancer he/him]

A big reason as for why Ym´s gets counted as a Truthwatcher is that his Spren tells him to "use the light" which most likely means the Illumination Surge and that in combination with Prgression would definetly make him a Truthwatcher.

Edited July 17, 2014 by Edgedancer

[Griff he/him]

QUESTION

Does each specific order have their own spren that they would bond?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes. Each order has a spren that is distinctive. All Windrunners come from wind— from honorspren.

 

Why does this discount the possibility that they are the same spren? Lift is partially in the cognitive realm which allows for the difference.

 

Ym's spren is described as "specks of light" WOR pg 171, on the same pg it says " it moved across the surface of the workbench, slinking closer. When it stopped, light crept upward from it, like small plants growing or climbing from their borrows. When it moved again,those withdrew."

On pg 177 says "the little spren moved along beside him"

 

".. a thin, twisting trail of vines grew out of the darkness and approached Lift. It looked like a little stream of spilled water picking its way across the floor. Here and there, bits of clear crystal peeked out of the vines, like sections of quartz in otherwise dark stone. Those weren’t sharp, but smooth like polished glass, and didn’t glow with Stormlight. The vines grew super-fast, curling about one another in a tangle that formed a face."

 

They move similarily no where does it say Yms spren "floats" it says slinks across the workbence which is the same as wyndle. 

Yes the crystals dont glow to Lift but she is in the cognitive realm partially, sinec Ym isnt that might be how the spren is seen in just the physical.

 

" And, conveniently, the Truthwatchers have Illumination and Growth, and Ym's spren is a growing light."

 

If this is accurate shouldnt a glowing light be more relevent to Lightweavers? Pattern doesnt glow. 

 

As for your points

 

Chapter icons can be important though.

 

I dont think that fits with the truthwatchers atal

 

Lift isnt "a thing of beauty" nor articulate either.

 

Where is the evidence Yms spren wasnt confined to the ground?

 

Ym does not seem esoteric atal. Esoteric is defined as "Intended for or likely to be understood by only a small number of people with a specialized knowledge or interest:" and "only taught to or understood by members of a special group : hard to understand"

 

That could easily of meant to mean use the stormlight tho Edgedancer. Dont see how illumination would of helped him against "Nalan? Darkness" givien how "Taln" reacts to Shallen using it in front of him

Edited July 17, 2014 by Griff

[Moogle]

Why does this discount the possibility that they are the same spren? Lift is partially in the cognitive realm which allows for the difference.

 

Because even if she's in the Cognitive Realm, they should still look similar. Pattern's Physical form is his Cognitive form's head. There's basically nothing similar between Wyndle and Ym's spren except for the fact that they both "grow", which is explained by them both sharing the Growth Surge.

 

They move similarily no where does it say Yms spren "floats" it says slinks across the workbence which is the same as wyndle. 

 

There's this bit:

Ym was an old man now. By the time he reached the first cross street, he was gasping for air. He stopped beside the old barber shop, dark inside, door locked. The little spren moved along beside him, a shimmering light that sprayed outward in a circle. Beautiful.

...

Footsteps slapped on the street behind, getting closer.

“No,” the spren whispered. “Light!”

 

If the spren is on the ground and is whispering, I can't imagine Ym being able to hear it. Maybe I'm crazy? I just assumed it was floating here.

 

"And, conveniently, the Truthwatchers have Illumination and Growth, and Ym's spren is a growing light."

 

If this is accurate shouldnt a glowing light be more relevent to Lightweavers? Pattern doesnt glow.

 

Pattern is still made of light, though. Specifically, black strands of "light". Illumination can be used to create darkness, as both Nalan and Shallan do in WoR. Illumination is also "the Surge of Light, Sound, and Various Waveforms", and Pattern is most assuredly some sort of fractal/waveform. Ym's spren also fits Illumination and Growth quite nicely by being made of light that is growing.

 

Chapter icons can be important though.

 

I dont think that fits with the truthwatchers atal

 

Lift isnt "a thing of beauty" nor articulate either.

 

Chapter icons can be important, but I've already noted that Kaladin gets Vedeledev when he heals people, and Ym got Vedeledev for healing the urchin. So the icons are important here, they just don't show us the right order.

 

The Truthwatchers learn, or as Renarin puts it, "see". Ym gathering stories fits in with that quite well.

 

And as for Lift, yes, Lift doesn't fit the Edgedancers' stereotypes, so Ym doesn't have to fit the Truthwatcher's stereotypes. That's the point I was making.

 

Ym does not seem esoteric atal. Esoteric is defined as "Intended for or likely to be understood by only a small number of people with a specialized knowledge or interest:" and "only taught to or understood by members of a special group : hard to understand"

 

That could easily of meant to mean use the stormlight tho Edgedancer. Dont see how illumination would of helped him against "Nalan? Darkness" givien how "Taln" reacts to Shallen using it in front of him

 

Ym is hard to understand, and his religion is very weird. That's why I think esoteric fits him very well.

 

And yes, I agree that the spren yelling "light!" could just as easily mean use Friction. I think that Illumination would have been best, though. Illumination could have made Ym invisible (or at least part of the darkness), which would have let him avoid Nalan.

Edited July 17, 2014 by Moogle

[Aleksiel]

While I agree Lift may be could see spren differently, I do not think Ym's spren was like Wyndle. Wyndle looked like he grew to move, whereas Ym's spren stopped moving and then something started to grow out of it. This is too different a mechanism to be the same type of spren.

 

However, I don't find the 'use the light' as evidence Ym could lightweave. The spren could have very well meant stormlight.

 

 

“What did you do?” Jasnah asked. “It involved light, I assume?”

“I seemed to make plants appear,”

 

 

“What do I do?” she asked.

“You need the Light,” Pattern said.

 

Both cases are about use of illumination, but I think generally 'light' can be used for short of stormlight especially by a spren with memory problems.

 

I also find it interesting Ym's chapter has double Vedel icon. When Kal has two Jezrien, he does something super Windrunnerish.

 

However, I'm inclined to believe Ym was a Truthwatcher because he was religious (into esoteric things), a shoemaker (learned), gave shoes for stories (giving and learning), his spren moved around very differently from Wyndle, he was an outsider and didn't care about Edgedancer things like 'rich people's food', expensive clothes or doors, and he didn't think anything like Lift in the lines of 'the pose wasn't particularly dignifying'. Overall prestige, luxury, looks and the like weren't part of Ym's PoV. Ym cared whether or not the shoes fit perfectly, not about making them look nice. May be this offended Nalan's fashion sense and that's why he killed Ym.

 

edit: spelling

Edited July 17, 2014 by Aleksiel

[Edgedancer he/him]

Actually, do we know if all the Edgdancer-Spren are in the organization Wyndle mentions? Because if they are then Ym´s Spren certainly isn´t one of them. Given that they took extreme care with Wyndle, Ym´s Spren seem to uninteligent to be a part of them and they did single out Lift.

[Aleksiel]

Actually, do we know if all the Edgdancer-Spren are in the organization Wyndle mentions? Because if they are then Ym´s Spren certainly isn´t one of them. Given that they took extreme care with Wyndle, Ym´s Spren seem to uninteligent to be a part of them and they did single out Lift.

 

One could have disobeyed like Syl and Ivory did and went to someone despite his peoples wishes.

[Horatio Spifflewicket]

And... wasn't there a part where Shallan was in Shadesmar and Pattern told her to watch out for some sort of spren that was flying around?  And then there were comments by Shallan about how the spren looked much differently in the cognitive realm.

 

(I checked WoR out from the library, so I don't have a copy in front of me) - I think it was either when she was

Soulcasting the boat to water

or

Arguing with the Stick

 

So, I can totally see how a Wyndle-like spren could look different on either side of the divide.

[Swimmingly he/him]

Exhaustionspren. They appear to be small whirls of orange dust in the Physical, but are huge, greyish blurs that swoop like vultures in the Cognitive.

[Griff he/him]

 

 

There's basically nothing similar between Wyndle and Ym's spren except for the fact that they both "grow", which is explained by them both sharing the Growth Surge.

 

The way they move is similiar in my opinion, think described quiet closely.

The lights as i said could be the crystals Lift sees on wyndle.

We actually have no idea how Lifts ability to see into the cogitive aspect changes how wyndle is viewed/seen. Evidence suggests they are totally different in either realm as Swimmingly noted.

 

 

 

Chapter icons can be important, but I've already noted that Kaladin gets Vedeledev when he heals people, and Ym got Vedeledev for healing the urchin. So the icons are important here, they just don't show us the right order.

 

 

 

I also find it interesting Ym's chapter has double Vedel icon. When Kal has two Jezrien, he does something super Windrunnerish.

 

I agree with aleksiel here which is why i feel the chapter icon is important.

 

 

The Truthwatchers learn, or as Renarin puts it, "see". Ym gathering stories fits in with that quite well.

 

And as for Lift, yes, Lift doesn't fit the Edgedancers' stereotypes, so Ym doesn't have to fit the Truthwatcher's stereotypes. That's the point I was making.

 

The Truthwatchers are described as learned and givng which would fit Ym but learned to be me would mean scholarly.

 

 

 

Ym is hard to understand, and his religion is very weird. That's why I think esoteric fits him very well.

 

I dont think he was hard to understand and his religion wasnt as weird as vorinism its actually a pretty simple concept.

 

 

 

didn't care about Edgedancer things like 'rich people's food', expensive clothes or doors, and he didn't think anything like Lift in the lines of 'the pose wasn't particularly dignifying'. Overall prestige, luxury, looks and the like weren't part of Ym's PoV. Ym cared whether or not the shoes fit perfectly, not about making them look nice.

 

I dont think this is an arguement that he couldnt be an Edgedancer, Lif is a child with an interesting view of the world.

And at the same time Ym is nothin like Renarin.

I would actually say he is more like Lift then Renarin.

 

Im not saying he is an edgedancer and not a truthwatcher i just dont think there is enough evidence for it to be on the wiki.

 

Interestingly as well we dont see Rock comment on Renarins spren which is off topic but strange in my opinion.

 

Also think it makes more sense if Yms interlude is to highlight just how different and special Lifts ability to see in the cognitive realm is rather then anything to do with Renarin claiming to be a Truthwatcher.

 

Has any1 asked Brandon about Yms spren??

 

Ps i dont no how to do the quote things properly sorry

Edited July 17, 2014 by Griff

[Aleksiel]

I dont think this is an arguement that he couldnt be an Edgedancer, Lif is a child with an interesting view of the world.

And at the same time Ym is nothin like Renarin.

I would actually say he is more like Lift then Renarin.

 

The Knights of each Orders have specific personalities, so it is relevant that Ym didn't refer to things described as common for Edgedancers such as luxury and elegance.

 

I disagree Ym's nothing like Renarin, though we haven't seen the latter's PoV yet. Both Ren and Ym tend to listen instead of talk (to analyze others), both are outsiders, people find them strange, both have specific and somewhat limited interests (fabrials and shoemaking), both make others uncomfortable. 

 

 

 

Interestingly as well we dont see Rock comment on Renarins spren which is off topic but strange in my opinion.

 

Rock is very respectful if not even worshiping spren. He wouldn't speak of one which wants to remain hidden. The guy apologized to the spren on the rock Kal sticked to the wall.

[Griff he/him]

 

 

The Knights of each Orders have specific personalities, so it is relevant that Ym didn't refer to things described as common for Edgedancers such as luxury and elegance.

 

Where is it said Edgedancers like luxury and elegance? i must of missed that.

 

 

 

Both Ren and Ym tend to listen instead of talk (to analyze others), both are outsiders, people find them strange, both have specific and somewhat limited interests (fabrials and shoemaking), both make others uncomfortable. 

 

Ym did plenty of talking in his interlude, and explaining (the one religion) 

I dont see how you can say Ym is an outsider see little evidence of that.

The boy found it strange that Ym didnt charge for shoes probably thought it was a trick an Ym wasnt as he seemed,going to take advantage of him or something like that, which would explain why was uncomfortable an at the end the boy doesnt seem uncomfortable or that Ym is strange atal.

 

Being a cobbler is his profession i wouldnt say that limited his interests, plus having limited interest doesnt fit with him gathering stories from children but fits perfectly with the second ideal of the Edgedancers " i will remember those who have bin forgetten" and whose more forgotten than street urchins?

 

I take your point with Rock but think he would of mentioned it to Kaladin.

[Aleksiel]

Where is it said Edgedancers like luxury and elegance? i must of missed that.

 

It doesn't say luxury anywhere, but they are supposed to be the most refined and very demanding, so I figure preference for expensive things is common for Edgedancers. Theymoved gracefully and were articulate and refined, which sounds to me like the Edgedancers being (or at least) acting like nobles. It's possible to interpret their description differently, however this is my reading of it.

 

 

I dont see how you can say Ym is an outsider see little evidence of that.

 

 

“They said you was strange,” the boy said, finally walking into the shop.

 

People that get labeled as strange are usually not the popular crowd and someone who doesn't fit is more or less an outsider like Renarin and Kaladin's father. I am under the impression people went to Ym only when they needed shoes and he has a rather lonely/isolated lifestyle.

 

Ym did plenty of talking in his interlude, and explaining (the one religion) 

 

Ym did talk, but what he wanted was to learn the boy's story, so Ym had a preference to listen rather than talk.

 

I in no way mean to imply Ym is a foreign non-Vorin version of Renarin, only that their personalities have some similarities. At any rate, the said similarities aren't the main reasons I believe Ym's a Truthwatcher.

Edited July 17, 2014 by Aleksiel

[Griff he/him]

 

It doesn't say luxury anywhere, but they are supposed to be the most refined and very demanding, so I figure preference for expensive things is common for Edgedancers. Theymoved gracefully and were articulate and refined, which sounds to me like the Edgedancers being (or at least) acting like nobles. It's possible to interpret their description differently, however this is my reading of it.

 

 

I understand what you are saying and why but that is at odds with Lift the known Edgedancer as much as it is with Ym, Ym was a "noble" but lost his wealth,so quiet likely he is refined and likes expensive things, i dont think we see enough of Ym to say he wasnt how you describe.

 

 

 

People that get labeled as strange are usually not the popular crowd and someone who doesn't fit is more or less an outsider like Renarin and Kaladin's father. I am under the impression people went to Ym only when they needed shoes and he has a rather lonely/isolated lifestyle

 

I didnt get this impression of Ym atal, seemed to me like a successfulish buisnessman (cobbler shop) who gives bk by helping street urchins, 

An old man trying to make things better for the forgtten kids.

 

 

 

Ym did talk, but what he wanted was to learn the boy's story, so Ym had a preference to listen rather than talk.

 

I think that was more in line with the second ideal of the Edgedancers and his religion than it is with the attribute "learned" of the Truthwatchers,

 

I dont see any similaritys with Renarin being honest. 

 

And which makes more sence writing Yms interlude to show how Lifts ability is so special/different?

 

Or to have a pointless interlude showing a truthwatcher before Renarin claims to be one? There is no forshadowing in that, but with lift there is, at least thats my opinion,

 

And if he was a Truthwatcher would he not of saw his own death coming? If foresight is a ability of theirs? 

 

Also does it not say something that Renarin doesnt trust his spren thinking its all in his mind and that Ym imediately does??

[Aleksiel]

I understand what you are saying and why but that is at odds with Lift the known Edgedancer as much as it is with Ym, Ym was a "noble" but lost his wealth,so quiet likely he is refined and likes expensive things, i dont think we see enough of Ym to say he wasnt how you describe.

 

That data about the Edgedancers is from in-world WoR, not Lift. Being born a noble doesn't mean you automatically like expensive things. Ym hadn't save money for anything fancy, so I say he wasn't interested in fancy things. Else he'd at least charge people.

 

 

 

I didnt get this impression of Ym atal, seemed to me like a successfulish buisnessman (cobbler shop) who gives bk by helping street urchins, 

 

Ym had only five spheres, how is that a successful businessman?

 

 

And which makes more sence writing Yms interlude to show how Lifts ability is so special/different?

 

Or to have a pointless interlude showing a truthwatcher before Renarin claims to be one? There is no forshadowing in that, but with lift there is, at least thats my opinion,

 

The interlude is not pointless. It did some world-building (new religion and town), we saw a new kind of spren and the surge of re-growth before Lift used it, thus we are introduced to the healing ability before it is used to solve a problem, so it doesn't feel like it came from nowhere. Also, we learned a lot about Nalan, so it's not a surprise for the reader he wants to kill Lift.

 

There is foreshadowing Ren's going to be a Radiant like his glasses and the problems with his Blade. From a meta-text perspective becoming a Radiant was the natural progression of his character. Giving the description of the Truthwatchers, it wasn't unpredictable which Order he'd be, but I admit I didn't expect Ren to be a Truthwatcher.

 

 

 

And if he was a Truthwatcher would he not of saw his own death coming? If foresight is a ability of theirs? 

 

Renarin didn't saw anything about himself as far as we know, so why would Ym? There's little on foresight, but it predicted one major world event and nothing of personal matter, so I'd hazard the Truthwatcher either has to be more experienced or there are limitations preventing one from knowing their destiny.

 

 

 

Also does it not say something that Renarin doesnt trust his spren thinking its all in his mind and that Ym imediately does??

 

Renarin starts with seeing the future - something forbidden and blasphemous in Alethkar, associated with the Voidbringers. It's completely natural he wasn't accepting it and Glyss probably had memory problems, so he couldn't explain anything (like Syl in the beginning of WoK), because their bond was relatively new. Ym on the other hand has no such upbringing and a talking spren didn't bother him. 

 

edit: typos

Edited July 17, 2014 by Aleksiel

[Griff he/him]

 

 

That data about the Edgedancers is from in-world WoR, not Lift. Being born a noble doesn't mean you automatically like expensive things. Ym hadn't save money for anything fancy, so I say he wasn't interested in fancy things. Else he'd at least charge people.

 

I no it came from in-world text i was pointing out how lift doesnt fit it so saying Ym doesnt isnt a confirming fact that he isnt an Edgedancer, because he doesnt fit the in world text about Truthwatchers either in my opinion

 

 

 

Ym had only five spheres, how is that a successful 

businessman

?

 

if i remember correctly it says he always has 5 spheres in that drawer, does that mean thats all he has?? he owns a shop so in my opinion easy to infer that he obviously has more, that just how much he leaves out for viewing when the urchins, also says was robbed twice which means he replaced them as many times and didnt seem like he struggled to do that did it?

 

 

The interlude is not pointless. It did some world-building (new religion and town), we saw a new kind of spren and the surge of re-growth before Lift used it, thus we are introduced to the healing ability before it is used to solve a problem, so it doesn't feel like it came from nowhere. Also, we learned a lot about Nalan, so it's not a surprise for the reader he wants to kill Lift.

 

There is foreshadowing Ren's going to be a Radiant like his glasses and the problems with his Blade. From a meta-text perspective becoming a Radiant was the natural progression of his character. Giving the description of the Truthwatchers, it wasn't unpredictable which Order he'd be, but I admit I didn't expect Ren to be a Truthwatcher.

 

So you think that makes more sence then showing how different/special Lift is?

We were introduced to healing early in WOK, so showing it as healing some1 else isnt a stretch so no need to show Ym do it before Lift.

 

As for Renarins glasses i dont see how his eyesight healed being honest as healing via stormlight has to do with perception and dont see how Renarin saw himself as not needing glasses after years of having them.

 

 

 

Renarin didn't saw anything about himself as far as we know, so why would Ym? There's little on foresight, but it predicted one major world event and nothing of personal matter, so I'd hazard the Truthwatcher either has to be more experienced or there are limitations preventing one from knowing their destiny.

 

Renarin saw them all dying, hence his histericalness and generally lack of usefulness at the oathgate.If he could see him and all Dalinars men dying doesnt it stand to reason that Ym would see his own death? He certainly seemed more advanced and more in control then Renarin if indeed he is a Truthwatcher?

 

 

 

Renarin starts with seeing the future - something forbidden and blasphemous in Alethkar, associated with the Voidbringers. It's completely natural he wasn't accepting it and Glyss probably had memory problems, so he couldn't explain anything (like Syl in the beginning of WoK), because their bond was relatively new. Ym on the other hand has no such upbringing and a talking spren didn't bother him.

 

I understand where your coming from but Renarin also had dalinars visions( some in the past some the future) so wasnt without presedent really, it doesnt explain away his lack of trust toward the spren in my opinion but until we get a POV we wont no for certain.

[Aleksiel]

I no it came from in-world text i was pointing out how lift doesnt fit it so saying Ym doesnt isnt a confirming fact that he isnt an Edgedancer, because he doesnt fit the in world text about Truthwatchers either in my opinion

 

Lift is still too young and her personality is yet to develop. She's mouthy, so she could get eloquent in time, she has it in her. She's fascinated by 'rich people's' atuff and lifestyle, which seems fitting for an Edgedancer. She thought when sliding on the floor to safe her life that her 'pose was not particularly dignifying', she has a small-picture kind of thinking that Nalan described as typical for her Order, she remembered a forgotten boy and went back to save him instead of run for her life (the bigger picture). She fits quite well the description of her Order and I expect her stay in the palace to let her shine in full Edgedancer manner. (Unlike Kal who probably wouldn't dress fancy even if his life depended on it.)

 

Ym is esoteric - being religious counts imo. He is a learned man as he is quite the shoemaker and he is also giving. Keep in mind that we don't know how credible in-world WoR is, so not fitting the description is not really an issue.

 

 

 

if i remember correctly it says he always has 5 spheres in that drawer, does that mean thats all he has?? he owns a shop so in my opinion easy to infer that he obviously has more, that just how much he leaves out for viewing when the urchins, also says was robbed twice which means he replaced them as many times and didnt seem like he struggled to do that did it?

 

It's not like his shop is on 5th Avenue or any expensive shopping street. In fact having a shop doesn't mean one has money. My overall impression is that Ym lived a modest life with few spheres. Also, he said those 5 spheres were all he had.

 

 

So you think that makes more sence then showing how different/special Lift is?

We were introduced to healing early in WOK, so showing it as healing some1 else isnt a stretch so no need to show Ym do it before Lift.

 

The healing we saw in WoK is not part of the Progression surge. We saw Kal healing his own wounds with passive stormlight related ability, not Kaladin actively healing anyone else with the surge of re-growth. It's different. Brandon is all about foreshadowing and he usually shows things he plans on using latter on in key events. We saw Shallan Ligthweaving before she needed it to escape the ship or convince the deserters. We saw Kal surgebinding before he used it to save Bridge Four and Dalinar. We see re-growth before it saves a key character who then saves a future main character. It's about foreshadowing.

 

 

 

Renarin saw them all dying, hence his histericalness and generally lack of usefulness at the oathgate.If he could see him and all Dalinars men dying doesnt it stand to reason that Ym would see his own death? He certainly seemed more advanced and more in control then Renarin if indeed he is a Truthwatcher?

 

We have no idea what he actually saw, we only read his interpretation. While it is a good point against the Truthwatcher theory that Ym didn't seem to have visions of the future, we simply do not have enough information.

 

 

 

As for Renarins glasses i dont see how his eyesight healed being honest as healing via stormlight has to do with perception and dont see how Renarin saw himself as not needing glasses after years of having them.

 

It doesn't matter how long. Lopen had one arm since childhood, but he was able to grow himself another one. Kal only has his slave brands for a little over a year, yet he thinks they are part of him. I personally seldom think about my glasses, so I'd hazard stormlight would heal my eyesight as well because I do not think of myself as someone with bad eyesight.

 

 

 

I understand where your coming from but Renarin also had dalinars visions( some in the past some the future) so wasnt without presedent really, it doesnt explain away his lack of trust toward the spren in my opinion but until we get a POV we wont no for certain.

 

What do you mean Ren had Dalinar's visions? Ren only saw the coming of the everstorm. At any rate seeing the past was ok unlike seeing the future. They even discussed it in WoK that it's fine so long as Dalinar's visions were only of the past. It is logical to you to accept both kind of visions, but they are different in nature much like healing yourself with stormlight is not like healing someone with re-growth. Accepting visions of the past doesn't mean you accept visions of the future.

Edited July 17, 2014 by Aleksiel

[Griff he/him]

 

 

Lift is still too young and her personality is yet to develop. She's mouthy, so she could get eloquent in time, she has it in her. She's fascinated by 'rich people's' atuff and lifestyle, which seems fitting for an Edgedancer. She thought when sliding on the floor to safe her life that her 'pose was not particularly dignifying', she has a small-picture kind of thinking that Nalan described as typical for her Order, she remembered a forgotten boy and went back to save him instead of run for her life (the bigger picture). She fits quite well the description of her Order and I expect her stay in the palace to let her shine in full Edgedancer manner. (Unlike Kal who probably wouldn't dress fancy even if his life depended on it.)

 

You make a good point here i agree with bits of it as for the end of it about her stayin etc who knows?

 

 

 

Ym is esoteric - being religious counts imo. He is a learned man as he is quite the shoemaker and he is also giving. Keep in mind that we don't know how credible in-world WoR is, so not fitting the description is not really an issue.

 

His belief in his religion doesnt make him esoteric, its the irali( spelt wrong i think) religion meaning a whole peoples religion so dont see how that makes him esoteric.

I term learned refers to scholorship etc so i dont see that the same as you, 

 

 

The healing we saw in WoK is not part of the Progression surge. We saw Kal healing his own wounds with passive stormlight related ability, not Kaladin actively healing anyone else with the surge of re-growth. It's different. Brandon is all about foreshadowing and he usually shows things he plans on using latter on in key events. We saw Shallan Ligthweaving before she needed it to escape the ship or convince the deserters. We saw Kal surgebinding before he used it to save Bridge Four and Dalinar. We see re-growth before it saves a key character who then saves a future main character. It's about foreshadowing.

 

 

Yes but as i said in the previous post we saw healing(oneself) early in WOK so healing some1 else isnt a stretch, so no real need to show Ym do it before Lift really,

Second part i see what you mean but couldnt it be done to show how special/different Lifts ability is forshadowing that?

 

 

 

We have no idea what he actually saw, we only read his interpretation. While it is a good point against the Truthwatcher theory that Ym didn't seem to have visions of the future, we simply do not have enough information.

 

We see Renarin yelling we are all gonna die or something similiar which would imply he saw them die or saw them not surviving which is the same thing so not a stretch to say he saw them die, also strange we didnt see his spren u have to admit?

And as you said we dont have enough information which is why it shouldnt be on the wiki yet.

 

 

 

t doesn't matter how long. Lopen had one arm since childhood, but he was able to grow himself another one. Kal only has his slave brands for a little over a year, yet he thinks they are part of him. I personally seldom think about my glasses, so I'd hazard stormlight would heal my eyesight as well because I do not think of myself as someone with bad eyesight.

 

Renarin constantly states how his blood weakness stops him being a soldier etc he seems to mope about it quiet actively so when he sees himself like that yet doesnt see himself as needing glasses? Doesnt fit in my opinion.

I also wear glasses an see them as part of who i am i have had them since childhood and wouldnt ever see myself as without needing them.

 

 

 

What do you mean Ren had Dalinar's visions? Ren only saw the coming of the everstorm. At any rate seeing the past was ok unlike seeing the future. They even discussed it in WoK that it's fine so long as Dalinar's visions were only of the past. It is logical to you to accept both kind of visions, but they are different in nature much like healing yourself with stormlight is not like healing someone with re-growth. Accepting visions of the past doesn't mean you accept visions of the future.

 

 Dalinar also had a vision(s) of the future, Renarin had access to all the information regarding Dalinars visions  Therefore his ability to see the everstorm isnt without precedent and since his father had them and trusted them yet Renarin didnt says something more i think then religious taboo.

Edited July 17, 2014 by Griff

[Aleksiel]

You make a good point here i agree with bits of it as for the end of it about her stayin etc who knows?

 

 

His belief in his religion doesnt make him esoteric, its the irali( spelt wrong i think) religion meaning a whole peoples religion so dont see how that makes him esoteric.

I term learned refers to scholorship etc so i dont see that the same as you, 

 

I also have problems with this 'learned' thing. We don't know how accurate the attributes in the Ars Arcanum are. 

 

 

 

 

Yes but as i said in the previous post we saw healing(oneself) early in WOK so healing some1 else isnt a stretch, so no real need to show Ym do it before Lift really,

Second part i see what you mean but couldnt it be done to show how special/different Lifts ability is forshadowing that?

 

Lift isn'tt different because she heals, she's different because she's partly in the cognitive realm. Healing someone else is a huge stretch from what we've seen in WoK, it's completely different. Passive healing ability possessed by all Radiants vs specific healing surge limited to two Orders. Assuming healing yourself is like healing others is a fallacy.

We see Renarin yelling we are all gonna die or something similiar which would imply he saw them die or saw them not surviving which is the same thing so not a stretch to say he saw them die, also strange we didnt see his spren u have to admit?

And as you said we dont have enough information which is why it shouldnt be on the wiki yet.

He could have seen the result of the two storms colliding and falsely concluded they were going to die. He was in the middle of this huge event, so may be he could see himself or may be he he saw others and thought his fate would be the same. Seeing major world events isn't the same as seeing yourself, so don't assume seeing yourself in the middle of a huge event means you can foresee your own future.

 

You also seem to assume just because Renarin saw it happen it has to. Foresight might deal with the likeliest courses of the future. That doesn't make it the only outcome. 

 

We do not know what Renarin saw. We don't know how foresight works or how accurate it is. 

 

Renarin constantly states how his blood weakness stops him being a soldier etc he seems to mope about it quiet actively so when he sees himself like that yet doesnt see himself as needing glasses? Doesnt fit in my opinion.

I also wear glasses an see them as part of who i am i have had them since childhood and wouldnt ever see myself as without needing them.

 

 

 

His blood weakness is part of his self image, whereas the glasses weren't. Again, Lopen regrew his arm after 10+ years.

 

 

 Dalinar also had a vision(s) of the future, Renarin had access to all the information regarding Dalinars visions  Therefore his ability to see the everstorm isnt without precedent and since his father had them and trusted them yet Renarin didnt says something more i think then religious taboo.

 

 

 

Dalinar never had a vision of the future.

[maxal she/her]

I do not think we should dwell that much into the potential resemblances between Ym and Renarin to determine if the first is indeed a Truthwatcher... All members of one order will not be clones of each others. I therefore suspect the "learned" attribute can express itself in many different ways just as I think the same could be said about other attributes.

 

What is learned?

 

According to google, a learned person is someone who is having much knowledge acquired by study. Whereas there is a scholarly attribute attached to the term (which does seem to characterized neither Ym nor Renarin), there is also the concept of "acquired by learning or experience" implying knowledge can seek in many different ways.

 

I happen to believe Ym's habit of collecting children's stories fit quite well into that description. Knowledge does not have to be about the workings of the world or fabrials or Desolations or philosophy: knowledge of people is also a way to be learned. Basically, a learned person knows a lot about one or more subjects which can apply to Ym.

 

Also, I have noticed our Radiants (bar Kaladin) all seem to have an bigger affinity with one of their surges. Shallan clearly masters Illumination, but cannot light a stick with Transformation. Jasnah has mastered Transformation, but is struggling with Transportation. Kaladin, well, we have yet to see Kaladin fail at something, despite all his self-bashing I therefore suspect Ym had a bigger affinity with Progression than with Illumination, quite the opposite of Renarin who seems to be using the later greatly (visions of the future are most probably a side product of Illumination). It is not impossible for Ym to not have mastered or experienced much the same aspects of Truthwatchers Renarin did.

 

As for Renarin, I would not see him into any other orders, truth to be tell. We have not yet seen how the learned attribute expresses itself in him, but I suspect we will. However, we can theorized a little boy prevented from learning to fight like all the other boys would cope by spending his time... learning stuff.

 

As for the blood sickness, personally, I think most of the problem is in between Renarin's ears, imo it is not physical. I know Kaladin diagnostic him a certain form of epilepsy (yeah right as if such diagnostic could be made just after a 2 minutes conversation, so I give little value to Kaladin's words), but I have since wondered if Renarin's sickness was not in fact a blockage he has. It always comes forward when there is fighting involved and never at other occasions. In fact, we practically do not see the sickness except in battle situation where Renarin has to hold sword and do something. I am therefore thinking there is nothing wrong with him physically, but mentally, each time he takes the sword, his body revolves by sending a fit. Some sort of protection mechanism, probably linked to his autism, but not something stormlight can "heal" as there is nothing to "heal".

 

Anyway, my new pet theory is that Dalinar's wife was murdered, but it was covered (ie nobody really knows the truth). Renarin saw it or part of it, but suppressed the memory and as a result developed an aversion for all sort of fighting without being able to explain it (the age would fit, he was 9, which pretty much is the age at which young boys bar Adolin starts learning the sword). Dalinar may be to blame as some of his actions may have triggered the assassination and this guilt pushed him to go to the NIghtwatcher to remove it. Adolin knows nothing: he was told a sweet lie. Now that I read it, it sounds like Shallan's mother death but I like the idea of Ssssssshhhh not dying of natural causes.

[hoser he/him]

Begging to differ ...

I do not think...

As for the blood sickness, personally, I think most of the problem is in between Renarin's ears, imo it is not physical. I know Kaladin diagnostic him a certain form of epilepsy (yeah right as if such diagnostic could be made just after a 2 minutes conversation, so I give little value to Kaladin's words), but I have since wondered if Renarin's sickness was not in fact a blockage he has. It always comes forward when there is fighting involved and never at other occasions. In fact, we practically do not see the sickness except in battle situation where Renarin has to hold sword and do something. I am therefore thinking there is nothing wrong with him physically, but mentally, each time he takes the sword, his body revolves by sending a fit. Some sort of protection mechanism, probably linked to his autism, but not something stormlight can "heal" as there is nothing to "heal".

...

Renarin's fits do not coincide with fighting in tWoK.

• He has one around when Dalinar is having the Recreance vision sitting through a highstorm, 
• He has another apparent fit when Navani is making the huge glyph in Sadeas's warcamp.
• He charges in without having a fit when they are fighting the chasmfiend. 

I don't understand the triggers, but it doesn't seem to be the presence of fighting. 

 

Edit: removed nonsense

Edited July 18, 2014 by hoser

[Griff he/him]

 

Lift isn'tt different because she heals, she's different because she's partly in the cognitive realm. Healing someone else is a huge stretch from what we've seen in WoK, it's completely different. Passive healing ability possessed by all Radiants vs specific healing surge limited to two Orders. Assuming healing yourself is like healing others is a fallacy.

 

 

i didnt say she was different because she heals i repeatedly pointed out she is different because she is in the cognitive realm, thus Yms interlude is to highlight how different she is because of that. And i dont agree that healing some1 else is a huge stretch from healing we see in WOK, its a logical progression.

 

 

He could have seen the result of the two storms colliding and falsely concluded they were going to die. He was in the middle of this huge event, so may be he could see himself or may be he he saw others and thought his fate would be the same. Seeing major world events isn't the same as seeing yourself, so don't assume seeing yourself in the middle of a huge event means you can foresee your own future.

 

 

Yes he could of, but he becomes histerical screaming we are all gonna die, if he didnt see there deaths than by common sense there was a chance for survival, and if thats the case wouldnt of screamed we are all gonna die and maybe of been more use at the oathgate, so logical thing is he saw them die.

 

 

You also seem to assume just because Renarin saw it happen it has to. Foresight might deal with the likeliest courses of the future. That doesn't make it the only outcome. 

 

We do not know what Renarin saw. We don't know how foresight works or how accurate it is. 

 

No i dont think anything Renarin sees will definately happen, being honest if the Truthwatchers do possess forsight i would think they glimpse the voidbringers/odiums( since we are constantly told seeing the future is of them) plans/ goals and try interpret them to find hidden truth in them.

 

 

His blood weakness is part of his self image, whereas the glasses weren't. Again, Lopen regrew his arm after 10+ years.

 

Lopen also made rude gestures with his missing arm so easy to see that happening, and with renarin why would the blood weakness be part of him an not his eyesight? Waking up every day and putting on his glasses for how many years? And there not part of his self image he doesnt see himself as needing them? Bit much in my opinion.

 

 

 

Dalinar never had a vision of the future.

 

At the end of WOK(i think) he gets a vision and asks is it the future and the stormfather says its what he fears but he isnt good at seeing the future thats more Cultivation. That is a vision of the future, the future Tanavast feared, worse case scenario of the future.

 

@ maxal

 

 

I happen to believe Ym's habit of collecting children's stories fit quite well into that description. Knowledge does not have to be about the workings of the world or fabrials or Desolations or philosophy: knowledge of people is also a way to be learned. Basically, a learned person knows a lot about one or more subjects which can apply to Ym.

 

It fits the second ideal of the Edgedancers too, which is why i dont think it can be used as evidence he is a Truthwatcher.

 

 

Also, I have noticed our Radiants (bar Kaladin) all seem to have an bigger affinity with one of their surges. Shallan clearly mastersIllumination, but cannot light a stick with Transformation. Jasnah has mastered Transformation, but is struggling with Transportation. Kaladin, well, we have yet to see Kaladin fail at something, despite all his self-bashing   I therefore suspect Ym had a bigger affinity with Progression than with Illumination, quite the opposite of Renarin who seems to be using the later greatly (visions of the future are most probably a side product of Illumination). It is not impossible for Ym to not have mastered or experienced much the same aspects of Truthwatchers Renarin did.

 

 

This is a good point. When we see lift she has mastered friction but not progression(healing) and at the end we she her use it thus the link to Ym and how very different the ability of being partially in the cognitive realm makes her.

Arguement can be made either way.

 

 

As for Renarin, I would not see him into any other orders, truth to be tell. We have not yet seen how the learned attribute expresses itself in him, but I suspect we will. However, we can theorized a little boy prevented from learning to fight like all the other boys would cope by spending his time... learning stuff.

 

As for the blood sickness, personally, I think most of the problem is in between Renarin's ears, imo it is not physical. I know Kaladin diagnostic him a certain form of epilepsy (yeah right as if such diagnostic could be made just after a 2 minutes conversation, so I give little value to Kaladin's words), but I have since wondered if Renarin's sickness was not in fact a blockage he has. It always comes forward when there is fighting involved and never at other occasions. In fact, we practically do not see the sickness except in battle situation where Renarin has to hold sword and do something. I am therefore thinking there is nothing wrong with him physically, but mentally, each time he takes the sword, his body revolves by sending a fit. Some sort of protection mechanism, probably linked to his autism, but not something stormlight can "heal" as there is nothing to "heal".

 

I couldnt see him in any other order either personally i dont think he should of been made a radiant atal, yes it was the only progression of the character but because of how it was done/revealed it felt like a bit of a let down (same as dalinar) it just fell flat, was a oh for gods sake moment.

As for his blood weakness definately something funny going on there, as for his autism hes barely on the scale and no one would of noticed if not for a WOB.

 

Im not arguing Ym isnt a Truthwatcher just dont think there is enough evidence for it to be on the wiki yet.

Edited July 18, 2014 by Griff

[Aleksiel]

i didnt say she was different because she heals i repeatedly pointed out she is different because she is in the cognitive realm, thus Yms interlude is to highlight how different she is because of that. And i dont agree that healing some1 else is a huge stretch from healing we see in WOK, its a logical progression.

 

Ym is not there to show us how different Lift is because of her connection to the Cognitive realm, we've already seen a few surgebinders. Ym was meant to show us Nin, the new spren, possibly the Iriali trail and the like, but I wouldn't say he was there just for contrast with Lift.

 

Also, I don't think healing someone else is the logical progression of healing yourself. If you are a good cook, that means you can prepare nice meals not that you can touch someone and turn them into a good cook as well. The mechanism of healing yourself and healing others is different and only a limited amount of surgebinders are capable of healing others, but all can heal themselves. It was important to see the surge of re-growth. It foreshadows what Lift did and foreshadowing is something Brandon does often.

 

 

 

Lopen also made rude gestures with his missing arm so easy to see that happening, and with renarin why would the blood weakness be part of him an not his eyesight? Waking up every day and putting on his glasses for how many years? And there not part of his self image he doesnt see himself as needing them? Bit much in my opinion.

 

You are a different person. I seldom think about my glasses despite wearing them from the moment I wake up in the morning until I go to sleep. I really don't understand why it is such an issue for you that Ren healed his eyesight. Just accept it and move on.

 

 

 

At the end of WOK(i think) he gets a vision and asks is it the future and the stormfather says its what he fears but he isnt good at seeing the future thats more Cultivation. That is a vision of the future, the future Tanavast feared, worse case scenario of the future.

 

That was not a vision of the future. What Dalinar sees is a recording and the monologue is always the same. Dalinar saw a vision in which Tanavast talked about the possible future, but Dalinar did not see a vision of the future like Renarin did. Dalinar does not see the future, he sees the messages Tanavast has left in the past, therefor all Dalinar sees is past.

 

 

Now to say something more relevant to the topic of Truthwatcher or Edgedancer, I'll repeat myself and say again that I consider Ym's spren and Wyndle to be quite different.

 

It's too soon to say Lift sees spren differently. She hasn't commented on that and she doesn't see any objects or living creatures in a none-physical realm manner, so it's unreasonable to say she'd see only spren in a different way once they've crossed from the Cognitive realm to the Physical.

 

Appearance aside, Wyndle grew in the direction in which he wanted to move, whereas Ym's spren had something grow from it when it stopped moving. No matter how they actually look in the Cognitive realm, there's no reason for the same kind of spren to move in the physical realm in a totally different (even opposite) manner. 

 

That being said, I agree it's prematurely to put Ym as a Truthwatcher in coppermind when it's not canon yet. But I think there is more evidence to that than you give it credit. The other times someone (including) spren has talked about using light, it was about Illumination, Ym gives shoes in exchange of learning a story and this fits the attributes quite well. Also, as I said, I strongly disagree Ym's spren was like Wyndle.

[Moogle]

I would have no issues with Ym's Coppermind entry having a [disputed] or [speculation] tag next to where it says he's probably a Truthwatcher. That said, it's pretty clear from the section itself that Ym being a Truthwatcher is not confirmed and that it's speculation.

 

I think things are okay as they are. If you still think it should be changed, Griff, you could send a message to Joe ST about it or post in the Coppermind subforum here.

Edited July 18, 2014 by Moogle