Regrowth?

[fiveAM]

I don't think that Shallan's Soulcasting was instant (though, it could have been).

If it was an instant transformation, it probably would have said that the goblet "had melted" instead, as she wouldn't have had time to see the actual change.

Jasnahs turning smoke to stone was pretty quick tho, and they were both pure elements or whatever

Well, it's possible that not all of Soulcasting behaves the same? Some are instant, some are more gradual. Also, it could have to do with affinity. When about to Soulcast Shallan's blood, Jasnah talks about how she's weak in Blood or something like (sorry no book to give quote). It seems not completely out there to say that Jasnah's strength may lie somewhere in her smokestone and smoke? She turns the huge pillar into smoke instantly, and doesn't she also turn one of the footpads into smoke (although i think i might be remembering that wrong). I know she turned one into fire, another into quartz, and were the other 2 smoke?

There could also be that more difficult Transformations are more gradual. Like Soulcasting building from thin air, and rapid healing I would say be pretty high level stuff whichever way you look at it. The blood welling up for Shallan could also be because it was her first time Soulcasting and she didn't know how to properly use her power to Soulcast

[CrazyRioter]

yeah, the other two dudes got soulcast into smoke.

Also, it might have been because when Shallan soulcast she only had a regular sphere and not one of those big gems Jasnah had, maybe it's faster if you have more Stormlight.

[Lamguin]

I'm thinking that the reverse lashing is the combo ability of the windrunners. Otherwise, it implies that there is a pressure based ability that let's you make something refuse to stick to anything.

Regrowth as a combo with soulcasting makes sense to me. It seems to require stormlight from a specific gem to work properly, which works like soulcasting, but it's slower than soulcasting has been shown to be.

As for Kaladin going stormriding, my guess is that it's something else. Maybe an attempt by Honor's shard, rather than the Almighty, to communicate. Haven't really thought too much about this one yet.

Re: breathing in stormlight vs travelling to Shadesmar to use powers.

I believe Brandon has said that the cosmere involves three realms; the physical, the spiritual, and the cognitive. (If someone can throw the quote up here, that'd be pretty great). I'm guessing either each power corresponds to one of the three realms, or each order. Thus, windrunning (or pressure and gravity) is physical, while soulcasting (or the one or two orders Jasnah and Shallan will belong to) is cognitive.

If I'm right, it'll be cool to see what the spiritual orders/powers do to use stormlight.

[CrazyRioter]

Reverse Lashing seems pretty in tune with Gravity to me, it's hard to see how pressure enters into it. Also, the voice Kaladin hears in his dream implies that "riding the storms" was not uncommon in the past, which wouldn't be the case if it was a specific attempt by something to communicate with Kaladin. So I'm fairly sure the "storm riding" is the Windrunners "something else".

[fiveAM]

As for Kaladin going stormriding, my guess is that it's something else. Maybe an attempt by Honor's shard, rather than the Almighty, to communicate. Haven't really thought too much about this one yet.

Re: breathing in stormlight vs travelling to Shadesmar to use powers.

Do you mean the Shard itself is sending the vision and not Tanavast? I think that's what you mean but the wording is a bit confusing. =p

Edited December 16, 2011 by fiveAM

[happyman]

Reverse Lashing seems pretty in tune with Gravity to me, it's hard to see how pressure enters into it. Also, the voice Kaladin hears in his dream implies that "riding the storms" was not uncommon in the past, which wouldn't be the case if it was a specific attempt by something to communicate with Kaladin. So I'm fairly sure the "storm riding" is the Windrunners "something else".

Especially given the name. I mean, surely Windrunners means something, right? "Riding the Storm" seems like a good meaning for that.

Although during my most recent re-read of that bit (yesterday), I couldn't help but wonder if it had something to do with the fact that Kaladin survived being fully exposed to a Highstorm and saw the face in his body.

[Lamguin]

@fiveAM, yes, that's what I meant. Couldn't remember that The Almighty's name was Tanavast.

[Vortaan]

What if the difference between Shallan and Jasnah's Soulcasting is what they can Soulcast? Jasnah says she is bad at organic materials. So far, Shallan seems good at them... but it's slower. Since we don't see anyone Soulcast food, is it possible organic Soulcasting is, by it's nature, slower? And that organic Soulcasting in general used to be called Regrowth? Maybe the reason Jasnah's organic Soulcasting is bad is because it goes so fast. If true organic Soulcasting requires more time, it could be why none of Jasnah's Soulcasting on organic items seems to work too well.

[ReaderAt2046]

What if the difference between Shallan and Jasnah's Soulcasting is what they can Soulcast? Jasnah says she is bad at organic materials. So far, Shallan seems good at them... but it's slower. Since we don't see anyone Soulcast food, is it possible organic Soulcasting is, by it's nature, slower? And that organic Soulcasting in general used to be called Regrowth? Maybe the reason Jasnah's organic Soulcasting is bad is because it goes so fast. If true organic Soulcasting requires more time, it could be why none of Jasnah's Soulcasting on organic items seems to work too well.

interesting theory.

I still think it more probable that Regrowth is some variant on Stormlight healing, but i'm not totally sure.

[name_here]

Reverse Lashing seems pretty in tune with Gravity to me, it's hard to see how pressure enters into it.

I have noticed that Reverse Lashing works better on things that are actually in the air. Szeth thinks it's because things in contact with the ground are more heavily bound to it, which has two problems:

1) He's altering gravity anyway, why should it matter how strongly it affects something before he alters it to point towards whatever he's set the Reverse Lashing on?

2) From a physics standpoint, the gravitational force is practically the same on something on the ground and something ten feet off the ground

However, if the gravitational force is assisted by pressure manipulation, that makes more sense, because there's more air to produce inward pressure.

[fiveAM]

I have noticed that Reverse Lashing works better on things that are actually in the air. Szeth thinks it's because things in contact with the ground are more heavily bound to it, which has two problems:

1) He's altering gravity anyway, why should it matter how strongly it affects something before he alters it to point towards whatever he's set the Reverse Lashing on?

2) From a physics standpoint, the gravitational force is practically the same on something on the ground and something ten feet off the ground

However, if the gravitational force is assisted by pressure manipulation, that makes more sense, because there's more air to produce inward pressure.

It could have to do with spren. I think there was a mention of something akin to gravity spren at one point in the book. I believe it was mentioned (I think the interlude with the spren hunter guy) where he talks about how scholars speculate on spren that keep people on the ground, though no one has actually confirmed one to exist.

[ReaderAt2046]

I've got a thought.

What if one of the Surges we haven't found yet is "Growth" or "life" (the natural biochemical energy that is responsible for natural healing and growth). Regrowth would then be a form of Surgebinding using that particular Surge.

Sort of like a Reverse Lashing enhancing something's gravitational pull, this would use Light to supercharge the surge of Growth.

[Telcontar]

Concerning the prevalent discussion in this thread about Regrowth being a sort of Soulcasting or something different.

I think we can assume that Shallan's order is nr.6: Shalash. If you want evidence, feel free to ask for it.

Shallan can obviously Soulcast, something she shares with Jasnah. Now. We know from that BS quote, that every order manipulates two surges (or Surges?). In Shallan's case that would be surges #6 and #7 (if we start with gravity and pressure/ahesion being #1 and #2 and then continue counting clockwise).

Assuming that Transformation (=Soulcasting) is a surge on it's own (maybe referring to elements changing state from solid to liquid to gasiform. or elements clinging together forming different molecules and thus changing state which could be described as transformation. Anyway that's the best way I can think of, of Transformation being an elemental force. So if Transformation is a surge, it's going to be #6 or #7.

Shallan is not in the same order as Jasnah, but Jasnah can Soulcast, so she shares the surge with Shallan. Nothing new, I know. But that means that Jasnah is in order nr.5 or nr.7. My guess is nr.5. As to why, I can explain, but it doesn't really matter in this post.

The woman who uses Regrowth is probably a Stonewarden, being in order nr.9: Talenel. (Even though I repeat myself, just ask, if you want to know why )

As long as everyone is correct in making the assumptions made above, Stonewardens could not manipulate Transformation.

So, either the female Shardbearer did indeed manipulate a different Surge or she used a fabrial.

Dalinar is convinved that there is no fabrials in his visions. But of course that doesn't mean anything.

Against Soulcasting. Shallan describes the process of Soulcasting as bribing the cognitive aspect of something to change. She gives the stormlight to the cognitive part. When Soulcasting the goblet, she suddenly feels cold, as if the warmth is being drawn from her. And the sphere gets warm instead. This could be the process of "bribing" the cognitive part. The stormlight actually goes to Shadesmar.

Dalinar felt cold himself, which brings to the conclusion that stormlight is used in himself. It stays in the physical realm.

And there is no reason IMO why other talents like Regrowth shouldn't need a specific combination of stones.

[selerian]

Quote

This would also explain Brandon's comment about 30 magic systems. Each power has two interpretations, plus each order gets one "combination" power. That's 30 "different" powers right there.

This makes perfect sense! I didn't realize that each order got a special combo power.

I think it should be considered that Surgebinding is not the only major magic system in Roshar. The appendix refers to "ten levels of voidbinding and Old Magic". Considering the allomancy\feruchemy\hemalurgy parallelism in Mistborn, i would expect voidbinding and Old Magic to be organized in a similar way to surgebinding. So three times 10 power each, that is likely what BS meant with "30 magic systems".

Telcontar:

How did you find out the exact orders of Shallan and Jasnah? I am confused by this bit:

Shallan is not in the same order as Jasnah, but Jasnah can Soulcast, so she shares the surge with Shallan. Nothing new, I know. But that means that Jasnah is in order nr.5 or nr.7. My guess is nr.5. As to why, I can explain, but it doesn't really matter in this post.

If you determined that Shallan is number six, if i understand correctly you say orders 5,6 and 7 could Soulcast. But BS stated that a single surge is shared only by two orders (and if it were different, symmetry would be broken), and Jasnah specifically says there were two orders of Knights able to "inherently Soulcast".

About Regrowth, "life" or "healing" seems reasonable to be a surge to me. BS is logically extremely accurate, but he doesn't seem to care so much about scientific accuracy, and while difficult to scientifically define "healing" and "life" sounds pretty good like natural forces.

Last point: is there some evidence of "travel" being a surge? It seems that a light-related surge exists - if it does, teleportation might just be one of it powers, without being a surge in itself.

[CrazyRioter]

what people are saying is that order 6 and EITHER order 5 or 7 could soulcast, we don't know which yet, cause you're right that they can't all be able to soulcast.

And Brandon has referenced Travel as a Surge, in an interview he did in late 2010.

[Telcontar]

Telcontar:

How did you find out the exact orders of Shallan and Jasnah? I am confused by this bit:

If you determined that Shallan is number six, if i understand correctly you say orders 5,6 and 7 could Soulcast. But BS stated that a single surge is shared only by two orders (and if it were different, symmetry would be broken), and Jasnah specifically says there were two orders of Knights able to "inherently Soulcast".

what people are saying is that order 6 and EITHER order 5 or 7 could soulcast, we don't know which yet, cause you're right that they can't all be able to soulcast.

yep, that's what I was saying. As to Jasnah, I stated my opinion in this thread posts #77 and #80.

[Inevitable]

Not really about "Regrowth", but this does tie into the idea of a high-speed heal.

Could one of the missing surges be "Time"? We've already seen time-based powers in Mistborn and it is my belief we've seen a Time-surge already in WOK. Namely, with regards to Dalinar's visions.

First of all, the Almighty refers, at some point, to predicting the future, albeit, inaccuratly. In Mistborn, Electrum shows its burner potential futures, while Atium shows them only one (imo, the most likely potential rather than the actual predetermined future. The fact Vin can break it shows Atium is not 100% perfect). Honor used this to predict the existance of Dalinar (or, more likely, several Dalinar-like people) and then left his message for them.

Second of all, Dalinar's visions of the past are similar to the powers of Gold and Malatium. Gold, notably, shows other potential realities. Dalinar clearly has the ability to interact with his visions, as evidenced by the one where Dalinar fights the Midnight Essence, and infact this "Regrowth" thing is seen. Whoever Dalinar was "playing" in it could not possibly have actually fought the Midnight Essense, as evidenced by the reactions of those around him. Dalinar was clearly acting upon the world and changing it. However, altering the past is a horrible trope, so I'm hoping that's not what happened. Instead what we may be seeing is a variation of Gold's Allomatic power: Dalinar isn't changing the past, he's seeing the alternative past of what would have happened if he had been in charge at the time.

That's not to say Dalinar himself has Time-surge abilities. The whole thing could have been orchestrated by Honor.

The other temporal metals of Mistborn involve slowing or speeding up time. The latter could relate to the enhanced heal rates of Regrowth.