What Is Virtuosity's Number?

[Dwmaster204]

I think it has been said that shards all have a spefic number. 

Honor 10

Oduim 9

Preservation 16

So what is Virtuosity's number? My best guess is 14 because of the number of yoki-hijo that the machine could not consume. I think that the yoki-hijo are spilenters of Virtuosity.

[RedBlue]

If I recall correctly, the maximum number of yoki-hijo at any given time was 16, and the number just happened to be 14 at the time when the machine turned on.

The story never really gets around to explaining why the yoki-hijo are like that, since it’s not super relevant to the plot. It might be Virtuosity’s influence, but given that the number 16 crops up quite a bit in the cosmere, it could be something else.

[Serack]

The arcanum (is that the term we are settling on for investiture rules/magic for a particular system?) for Komashi seems to follow a yin/yang Taoist style heuristic that makes me think Virtuosity's number may be two.  

However someone else quoted a WoB from last year that called attention to how the missing yellow in the standard pigment color pattern (Hion's Cyan and Magenta)  may still have relevance, so maybe I'm off here.  

[Werewolff Studios]

Not sure how relevant it may be or if Brando ended up changing his mind, but I feel this WOB from the livestream ties into this discussion.

Quote

Neon Borealis

The story [Yumi and the Nightmare Painter] uses the Fibonacci sequence several times as a recurring element related to art (and the golden ratio). Given that nightmares need "over a dozen" feedings to materialize and the number 13 features heavily on Yumi's rituals, would you say that 13 is related to Virtuosity in the same way that 16 is to Preservation and 10 is to Honor?

Brandon Sanderson

Wow. Good guess.

Secret Project #3 Reveal and Livestream (March 22, 2022)

 

[Firesong]

As Werewolff shows, it is most likely 13. 13 is a number in the Fibonacci sequence and shows up a lot in the book. 14 itself is a reflection of 13 to a degree, as it can be seen as 13 + 1, so, 13 other Yoki-hijo besides Yumi.   

[Dwmaster204]

 Honestly, at this piont, I'm leading towards 2. I'm going to steal some of Serack's work from his "On the nature of spirits and hion" topic to explain my reasoning.

  Quote

The light spirit divided in half, one bright and a “friendly orange color” the other dull and blue. Chapter 4

  Quote

As always, the spirit split into two to make the devices  Chapter 4

  Quote

this time by way of a single lifting spirit underneath that took the physical shape of two statues, each with grotesque features, facing one another. One vaguely male crouched on the ground; one vaguely female clung to the bottom of the building. Though divided once made physical, they were still part of the same spirit. Chapter 2

 

Part of Serack's conclusion was

Quote

When investiture on Komashi manifests on the physical realm and performs work (it's arcanum) it manifests as a dualist polarity, possibly inspired by Yin/Yang Taoism/Daoism (something I am largely ignorant about).  

I agree with him the book is constantly using the number two and sets of two:

- The helon is made of two colors 

- The spirts separate into two when manifesting into objects

- The story is about two people connected through the spirts manipulation 

- Two occupied planets (that we known of) and something is weird about them because one of the plants can pierce the Shroud

- Two white eyes on stable nightmares

- I know there are more, but I don’t have more time to search the pdf

In conclusion, I believe that 2 is a likely number for Virtuosity.

P.S. I could not get the quote system to work.

[GeoMantrix]

13 is the number of tiles one has between turns in Mah Jong, and 14 is the number during a turn, including the win.  Mah Jong has 3 suits, bamboo, cookies (but could be stones?) and numbers.  In Eastern painting, there are 4 gentlemen: Bamboo, Cherry blossom (appearing in Painter's final portrait of Yumi), orchid grass and chrysanthemum.

Also, there's 4 scholars.  I don't know if they could somehow be the Nalthian scholars?  

I'm kind of embarassed that though I'm half chinese, most of what I know about these things I learned in college.  

Edited July 5, 2023 by GeoMantrix
the 4 scholars sentence.

[GeoMantrix]

There's also 4 arms on the denizens of the neighboring planet.  But that's pretty random.  I do think 4 is a strong argument.

[Werewolff Studios]

3 minutes ago, GeoMantrix said:

There's also 4 arms on the denizens of the neighboring planet.  But that's pretty random.  I do think 4 is a strong argument.

The four-armed denizens are likely Sho Del, which were originally from Yolen, so I'm not sure if that ties into Virtuosity specifically. 

[GeoMantrix]

Ahh.

[Dwmaster204]

1 hour ago, GeoMantrix said:

13 is the number of tiles one has between turns in Mah Jong, and 14 is the number during a turn, including the win.  Mah Jong has 3 suits, bamboo, cookies (but could be stones?) and numbers.  In Eastern painting, there are 4 gentlemen: Bamboo, Cherry blossom (appearing in Painter's final portrait of Yumi), orchid grass and chrysanthemum.

Also, there's 4 scholars.  I don't know if they could somehow be the Nalthian scholars?  

I'm kind of embarassed that though I'm half chinese, most of what I know about these things I learned in college.  

This is interesting might be worth asking Sanderson about this on the spoiler stream.

[Firesong]

19 hours ago, Dwmaster204 said:

 Honestly, at this piont, I'm leading towards 2. I'm going to steal some of Serack's work from his "On the nature of spirits and hion" topic to explain my reasoning.

  Quote

The light spirit divided in half, one bright and a “friendly orange color” the other dull and blue. Chapter 4

  Quote

As always, the spirit split into two to make the devices  Chapter 4

  Quote

this time by way of a single lifting spirit underneath that took the physical shape of two statues, each with grotesque features, facing one another. One vaguely male crouched on the ground; one vaguely female clung to the bottom of the building. Though divided once made physical, they were still part of the same spirit. Chapter 2

 

Part of Serack's conclusion was

I agree with him the book is constantly using the number two and sets of two:

- The helon is made of two colors 

- The spirts separate into two when manifesting into objects

- The story is about two people connected through the spirts manipulation 

- Two occupied planets (that we known of) and something is weird about them because one of the plants can pierce the Shroud

 

- Two white eyes on stable nightmares

- I know there are more, but I don’t have more time to search the pdf

In conclusion, I believe that 2 is a likely number for Virtuosity.

P.S. I could not get the quote system to work.

The eyes thing is actually something that varies between Nightmares. We just see two on human-shaped Nightmares as they are taking on a more and more human shape. The spider-like Nightmare had several eyes. 

[Underwater_Worldhopper]

16 hours ago, GeoMantrix said:

There's also 4 arms on the denizens of the neighboring planet.  But that's pretty random.  I do think 4 is a strong argument.

The 4 armed creatures are Sho Del, they're the human equivalents of the Fainlife ecosystem. And try to avoid double posting, if you forgot to add something, do so with the edit function!

[Yumiya]

I actually lean towards 3. Three points of view (Yumi/Painter/Hoid). Three colors (cyan/magenta/missing yellow). Three is a Fibonacci number. Art has the rule of thirds. Humans, spirits and machines. etc

[GoldMisting]

On 7/4/2023 at 7:59 PM, Firesong said:

As Werewolff shows, it is most likely 13. 13 is a number in the Fibonacci sequence and shows up a lot in the book. 14 itself is a reflection of 13 to a degree, as it can be seen as 13 + 1, so, 13 other Yoki-hijo besides Yumi.   

Also the hijo are unusually active every 13th year

Wash 13 times with the 7th soap is the last bathing step we are told at the beginning of Yumi's tale.  Of course the Fibonacci sequence shows up in the bath

There are 13 ritual prayers

Most signs point to 13 being very significant in pre-Machine Torio

[teknopathetic]

I was thinking 14, as there are 14 people like Yumi

[+Child of Hodor]

On 7/3/2023 at 7:19 PM, Dwmaster204 said:

I think it has been said that shards all have a spefic number. 

Honor 10

Oduim 9

Preservation 16

So what is Virtuosity's number? My best guess is 14 because of the number of yoki-hijo that the machine could not consume. I think that the yoki-hijo are spilenters of Virtuosity.

Roshar system is number is 10, Braize's # is 9.  Which is a nitpick by me, but that's what we do here :). Roshar has 10 planets in it which were created before the shattering (or at least not by Honor and Cultivation). So it seems like it was set to be that way before they existed. 

 

Quote

 

Herald (paraphrased)

Would Ashyn/Braize share the 10-centric numerology of Roshar?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes 10-centric is for the entire Rosharan planetary system...wait Braize is 9-centric.

Arcanum Unbounded San Francisco signing (Nov. 30, 2016)

 

My pet theory is that Braize is 9 because of what was done to trap Odium there, more than Odium's mere presence. Honor & Cultivation used Adhesion against Odium and made it Your question is still totally valid. Shardworlds tend to have a magic number 1 -16. 13 pops out in this story with Yumi's rituals. 

[Treamayne]

3 hours ago, Child of Hodor said:

Which is a nitpick by me, but that's what we do here :). Roshar has 10 planets in it which were created before the shattering (or at least not by Honor and Cultivation).

If I may nitier-pik your nitpik - Roshar System has 13 planets (10 Gas Giants and three planets in the Goldilocks zone); if you include Roshar Planet's three moons - that's 16 celestial bodies in the system (*cough* Adonalsium*cough*).

Spoiler

 

3 hours ago, Child of Hodor said:

Shardworlds tend to have a magic number 1 -16

It's not that the worlds have a number, it's that (?some/most?) Shards have an associate number. On worlds where only one Shard resides, that number can be "amplified" - where more than one Shard resides, the expression of their associated traits (number, color, etc) is expressed differently based on many (mostly unknown) factors.

WoB:

Spoiler

Thought

It seems that certain colors and numbers appear frequently in specific Cosmere books, like the number 5 in Warbreaker or red and blue in Elantris. Do these colors or numbers happen to refer to a specific Shard, and if so, would they be consistent across the cosmere?

Brandon Sanderson

Certain colors and numbers are important in reference to certain Shards.

 

[Firesong]

Preservation 16

Honor 10

Odium 9 

Autonomy: 7 (I recall 7 showing up a lot in the Ars Arcanum of White Sand (in the Omnibus))

Virtuosity: 13 (Brandon said it being 13 is a good theory, and we see 13 show up a lot in the book)

Endowment: 5 (5 scholars, Returned are Fifth Heightening, etc)

Aethers: 12 (Not a Shard, but they are very connected to 12, so thought I would mention that)

Dawnshards: 4 (Same reasoning for inclusion as Aethers)

For things that are far more of an assumption 

Ambition: 3 (3 Simple Rules)

Cultivation: 3 (?) (She appeared to 3 known people to give them a Boon and Bane herself, Lift aging stopped 3 years before the story (iirc))

My Cultivation and Ambition theories have far less weight than ones on the others. `

[Werewolff Studios]

5 hours ago, Firesong said:

Preservation 16

Honor 10

Odium 9 

Autonomy: 7 (I recall 7 showing up a lot in the Ars Arcanum of White Sand (in the Omnibus))

Virtuosity: 13 (Brandon said it being 13 is a good theory, and we see 13 show up a lot in the book)

Endowment: 5 (5 scholars, Returned are Fifth Heightening, etc)

Aethers: 12 (Not a Shard, but they are very connected to 12, so thought I would mention that)

Dawnshards: 4 (Same reasoning for inclusion as Aethers)

For things that are far more of an assumption 

Ambition: 3 (3 Simple Rules)

Cultivation: 3 (?) (She appeared to 3 known people to give them a Boon and Bane herself, Lift aging stopped 3 years before the story (iirc))

My Cultivation and Ambition theories have far less weight than ones on the others. `

Ooh, I haven't seen seven linked with Autonomy before - good catch (mate, I need to read that Omnibus)

One theory I've thought about is Invention's number being 6, due to the six simple machines. However, as we know next to nothing about the Shard or Vessel, that's pure speculation.

Maybe Cultivation could be 2 - Boon and Bane being the two parts of the Old Magic? Not sure.

[Firesong]

29 minutes ago, Werewolff Studios said:

Ooh, I haven't seen seven linked with Autonomy before - good catch (mate, I need to read that Omnibus)

One theory I've thought about is Invention's number being 6, due to the six simple machines. However, as we know next to nothing about the Shard or Vessel, that's pure speculation.

Maybe Cultivation could be 2 - Boon and Bane being the two parts of the Old Magic? Not sure.

Okay, checked

7 Days per Pulse from Ridos

7 Levels of Lak

7 Ranks of Sand Master 

The Ars Arcanum shows 7 types of Sandling

The Ars Arcanum on Sand Recharging shows 7 states of charge

Probably a coincidence, but Autonomy encroaching on Scadrial is mentioned on Chapter 28 Epigraph of RoW, which is 7 * 4, and 4 is important in the Cosmere and on Taldain. On Taldain it takes 4 hours to fully charge sand, iirc. 

Probably enough coincidence, her name is 7 letters. 

 

 

Separate theory, but I feel Invention and Virtuosity are probably meant to be near-opposites of each other, like a lot of other near-opposite Shards. Invention implies practicality and science (therefore, limitations and rules), while Virtuosity implies artistry, and the cosmere is wont to point out how art is inherently useless, and that is the point. Brandon has said outside of the books that this is a philosophy he really likes and gets behind. 

So, I feel they are basically set up as opposite approaches to the concept of creation. the practical Invention, and the whimsical Virtuosity. A link can also probably be drawn between Whimsy and Virtuosity as well. 

 

Ruin and Cultivation are Change. Ambition also fits with the idea of change, but less directly, it is more like, ambition is typically tied with an ambition to make some sort of change, be it in the world, or in one's personal life. 

Honor, Dominion, Preservation, and Devotion all relate to rules and stability in some way. 

Autonomy, Whimsy, and Virtuosity are basically about individuality. 

Virtuosity and Invention are two sides of creation

 

Edited July 11, 2023 by Firesong

[Argenti]

2 hours ago, Firesong said:

Ruin and Cultivation are Change. Ambition also fits with the idea of change, but less directly, it is more like, ambition is typically tied with an ambition to make some sort of change, be it in the world, or in one's personal life. 

Honor, Dominion, Preservation, and Devotion all relate to rules and stability in some way. 

Autonomy, Whimsy, and Virtuosity are basically about individuality. 

Virtuosity and Invention are two sides of creation

Dawnshard theory time?

[Firesong]

18 minutes ago, Argenti said:

Dawnshard theory time?

I have now convinced myself that Ambition fits into Change. So we have Three Change Shards. So, I wonder what the 4th Change would be. That one is tricky. 

I have no clue what Valour's Intent would be. All of the other Shards are pretty clear in what they stand for. (Except for Autonomy, but she is weird and hypocritical in general).

Whimsy is also a bit hard to think up, maybe just does whatever they want. I can imagine some sort of trickster god, but less conniving and clever. 

So, we (or at least I) can't easily think up what Valour would be Intent wise. 

Quote

strength of mind or spirit that enables a person to encounter danger with firmness : personal bravery

But I don't see how this would line up with Intents, as it is literally just being brave. So, I am curious about them. I can definitely imagine a Shardworld under them probably being a world that really respects bravery, so would probably like soldiers, adventurers, daredevils, stuntsmen, mountain climbers, etc. But in terms of what the actually Intent would be, not entirely sure. 

[Argenti]

5 minutes ago, Firesong said:

I have now convinced myself that Ambition fits into Change. So we have Three Change Shards. So, I wonder what the 4th Change would be. That one is tricky. 

 

I always put Whimsy in for the fourth change

Spoiler

here's my matching Shards.

• Create/Begin
  • Endowment (maybe?)
  • Virtuosity
  • Invention
  • ???
• Bind/Remain
  • Preservation
  • Honor
  • Dominion
  • Autonomy (This doesn't fit name wise but her behavior seems to signify it, with all the conquering) 
• Change 
  • Ambition
  • Whimsy
  • Ruin
  • Cultivation
• Feel
  • Odium
  • Valor
  • Mercy
  • Devotion (Could go in bind?)

 

Edited July 12, 2023 by Argenti

[Firesong]

5 minutes ago, Argenti said:

I always put Whimsy in for the fourth change

  Hide contents

here's my matching Shards.

• Create/Begin
  • Endowment (maybe?)
  • Virtuosity
  • Invention
  • ???
• Bind/Remain
  • Preservation
  • Honor
  • Dominion
  • Autonomy (This doesn't fit name wise but her behavior seems to signify it, with all the conquering) 
• Change 
  • Ambition
  • Whimsy
  • Ruin
  • Cultivation
• Feel
  • Odium
  • Valor
  • Mercy
  • Devotion (Could go in bind?)

 

Hmm, I see. Whimsy might be change, with erratic changes and not keeping to plans (as it was mentioned Whimsy is bad with plans). 

Endowment being creation could make sense, with how important art is on Nalthis, and how prone to taking on awareness Breath is. The entire system of Awakening is basically about creating life, in a sense. 

And also, I do feel that Ambition and Whimsy are definitely quite opposite, Ambition would be more about plans and goals, Whimsy is against both. Much like how Ruin and Cultivation are basically opposites. It matches the Allomancy Table theory, Ruin and Cultivation are more external ideas, and can be seen as Pushing and Pulling. Ambiton and Whimsy seem more internal, and are also opposites. 

Virtuosity and Invention I already mentioned are basically opposites. But not sure how Endowment would be an Internal version of that set. Even if Endowment seems like it fits. 

Odium is emotion in general (we see it when Dalinar sees Odium itself in OB, and it was everything. I feel that the Hatred aspect is about the all-consuming nature of hatred mixed with the nature of Rayse. We do see repeatedly throughout the series how much hatred can consume everything to the point of killing all other emotions. I can go into this whole thing in another thread, I have a lot on that). So Feel would fit it. 

Autonomy might be feel, as it was about individuality and the differences between people, but the manifestation through Bavadin is just really weird. As Autonomy talks about themselves a lot, and are about individuality, I feel that is more Internal) I feel Devotion would go in Bind. Which would make it into another set of opposite ideas that ultimately go together. Matching the pattern I am seeing. 

Preservation and Dominion actually seem to be the pair, as both are about trying to create stability and keep the status quo. And Preservation really loved Empires as Leras. Devotion and Honor are both about following laws and commands. I feel that those are internal, about what one does to oneself through will. While Preservation and Dominion force it upon others, external. 

I would say secondary links would be like, Ruin-Whimsy, as lack of plans and doing whatever you feel like tends to hurt yourself and others and cause ruination, doesn't tend to cause growth. While ambition can cause growth, be it good or bad, like Cultivation. Thus those would be linked. 

Maybe Endowment-Virtuosity due to links to art and colour. 

Devotion-Dominion wouldn't be right for a secondary link, as those are basically opposites. Preservation-Devotion would fit, as Devotion to the Status Quo would bring about a lack of change in it, they are kinda intrinsically linked ideas. Thus you then have Dominion and Honor, where Dominion kinda requires law and the like in order to remain and have meaning. 

So

Spoiler

• Create/Begin
  • Endowment (Internal(?) ?)
  • Virtuosity (External ?)
  • Invention (External ?)
  • ???
• Bind/Remain
  • Preservation (External Pushing)
  • Dominion (External Pulling)
  • Honor (Internal Pulling)
  • Devotion (Internal Pushing)
• Change 
  • Ambition (Internal Pulling)
  • Whimsy (Internal Pushing)
  • Ruin (External Pushing)
  • Cultivation (External Pulling)
• Feel
  • Odium (Internal)
  • Valor (External)
  • Mercy (External)
  • Autonomy (Internal)

Very vague and doesn't all fit, but I feel like I am getting somewhere.